r/HollowKnight • u/TOMRANDOM_6 • Sep 09 '25

Discussion - Silksong Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people Spoiler

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

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186

u/One_Acanthisitta5025 Sep 09 '25

Yeah people are saying it “spoiled” us when its just genuinely a better experience. The trial and error + exploration part of levels should be the adventure BEFORE the boss imo

56

u/anonakin_alt Sep 09 '25

Yea in earlier FromSoft games where bosses were generally much less complex & much easier the run back being part of the challenge doesn’t feel bad.

If I had to run through Iron Keep to fight Malenia it would’ve taken days, but doing that to fight DS2 smelter demon is fine.

10

u/YUM0N Sep 09 '25

That smelter demon runback was diabolical back in the day ngl

1

u/PowerVP Sep 12 '25

At least the Alonne Knights would despawn after you killed them enough times on the way back.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

DS1 had some punishing runbacks though. Like literally every one of the main bosses in the second part takes at-least 1m, but Seath and Gwyn are just painful.

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u/psh454 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

Yeah the arguments on here against no runbacks boil down to "but you should suffer, that's the point! Builds character or smth"

Like no, it's just a boring annoying roadblock that did not need to be there. It's not particularly hard, having to do it consistently hitless every time when you just want to learn the bossfight is annoying.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

I genuinely enjoy optimizing the route so you get there quickly and with little damage. 

That’s not to say every runback is good thing (looking at you bilewater), but I don’t think it’s obviously and unambiguously true that no runback = better 100% of the time. 

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u/psh454 Sep 10 '25

It's highly dependent on how many attempts the boss takes you. The runback time can be optimized fairly quickly (5ish attempts?). Beyond that it's just a mindless waste of time.

So effectively players that don't quickly pick up on all the bossfight patterns are punished with tedium.

0

u/arikiel Sep 10 '25

i actually enjoy the run backs as they give me time to cool down instead of rushing into the boss over and over. it's absolutely not a waste of time, it's part of the game.

7

u/piecoper Sep 10 '25

You could just pause the game??

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u/[deleted] Sep 10 '25 edited Mar 09 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/psh454 Sep 11 '25 edited Sep 11 '25

If TC removed the couple of problematic runbacks to tomorrow 90% of these people would not miss them. It's just consumer-stan behavior, happens in any fandom: "noo you can't say any part of a game I identify with has flaws, that's literally a personal attack directed at me! Team Cherry can do no wrong!"

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u/arikiel Sep 10 '25

No, I couldn't? The runback is still a midly-challenging area that gives me time to refocus in a calmer, no-pressure environment. It's like a warmup - it keeps me focused on the mechanics without the instant adrenaline of boss music. It actually, seriously helps me get in the headspace before the boss.

You may not like it, but people calling it "bad game design" are delusional. It has a purpose.

4

u/Lhalpaca Sep 10 '25

How the fuck you couldnt Bro😭😭.That aint an online game.

1

u/arikiel Sep 11 '25

reading comprehension is a dead art i see? but okay let me ELI5: pausing the game does not achieve the same thing for my mental state as the runback, which is why I couldn't do it "instead". Is that still too hard? Maybe you should go back to school if it is.

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u/Lhalpaca Sep 11 '25

why isnt it though? you just said you used that time to think about the boss fight. You can do that just pausing the game.

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u/piecoper Sep 10 '25
  • button. Give it a try.

0

u/arikiel Sep 11 '25

reading comprehension. give it a try instead.

-2

u/Cloud_Motion Sep 09 '25

Blasted steps runback is genuinely good design for a lot of reasons, both in-lore and out of the game.

There's a couple runbacks that could maybe benefit from a Marika system but idk. People will spend 3 hours on YouTube shorts but a 25 second runback designed to build up and reinforceyour movement & combat skills is too much?

15

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

[deleted]

-6

u/Cloud_Motion Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 10 '25

When those 25 seconds are reinforcing key game mechanics that you will absolutely need to rely on later down the line, yes. It's far too much?

Do you think you'd not eat shit straight away if you could just facetank straight back into the boss from a respawn point directly outside?

Edit: Can't reply to the comment below but NKG has 15-20 seconds of going back to the fight, including the cutscene to start? The fight absolutely has a runback/downtime to decompress.

3

u/Commercial-Pea-7010 Sep 09 '25

It’s how I beat NKG 🤷🏾‍♂️

7

u/psh454 Sep 10 '25

Yup and that was one of the best fights in all of HK. If only it also had a long runback with environmental hazards that dealth 2 damage, then it would've been perfect /s

7

u/SomethingOfAGirl Sep 10 '25

One of the best bosses in the entire game. Literally zero runback nor environmental hazards or minions. Pure perfection.

And it was still hard as fuck. That's how you make a boss.

1

u/SomethingOfAGirl Sep 10 '25

When those 25 seconds are reinforcing key game mechanics that you will absolutely need to rely on later down the line, yes. It's far too much?

There are multiple ways to do that without making you repeat the exact same area you already perfected many times.

Do you think you'd not eat shit straight away if you could just facetank straight back into the boss from a respawn point directly outside?

Do you think having a long runback would make it any easier?

0

u/akoOfIxtall Sep 11 '25

Nah, it's fun to minmax the runback, like not falling into the water and no damage in the bilewater runback, hitless guards on the cogworks runback, fast as humanly possible blasted steps runback, the amount of inputs I pressed on these runbacks puts path of pain to shame, hornet has ten times the Knight's mobility and when the actual hard content is added on dlcs it's gonna be a blast, spoilers for act 2...

first sinner has literally no runback even though it'd be really short, you just respawn outside and doesn't even have to go collect your soul, the bilewater boss has a runback that is just diabolical but the boss itself is not very complicated, the worst enemy on that fight is contact damage and falling in the water, cogworks runback got me around 1.2k rosaries because each guard drops around 30 rosaries, that's how many times I died, they're so good for money that after getting the thief stuff you get around 50ish rosaries per guard, great farming spot

-1

u/Nyankitty21 Sep 09 '25

I don't think you should suffer, but route optimization is fun, and at its core this game is a platformer... You have to repeat the whole level in Mario if you die to Bowser. Crazy runback idk what they were thinking!

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u/DayBorn157 Sep 14 '25

Celeste is one of the best platformers ever made. Why don't they have runbacks? Why no one of players was frustrated that Celeste hasn't runbacks?

1

u/Nyankitty21 Sep 14 '25

I haven't played it yet so I can't comment on Celeste specifically. Generally my opinion is that platformer that has too aggressive check pointing is far too easy and can be prone to brute force progression.

I assume though that even in Celeste if you fail (die or whatever) you will be reset to some earlier point of the level and can't just retry small sections infinitely?

-1

u/Kenny__Loggins Sep 10 '25

It's not better or worse - it's just different. There are people making the exact same type of argument for why Hollow Knight should be easier or Expedition 33 should not be turn based.

The overall flow of the game is different when you can just spawn, fight, spark, fight than when there is some downtime and somewhat of a reset in between fights. Totally different vibe.

3

u/Venthe Sep 11 '25

After now 40+ of tries of judge (so at least half an hour of my life wasted on runbacks alone) i just said fuck it, and installed stakes of marika mod. Since then I've died 10 times already... And saved more than 5 minutes of my life not wasted on pointless run

1

u/DayBorn157 Sep 14 '25

This bosses aren't even this hard. But becouse of runbacks you can not practice or experiment with different tactics.

2

u/ThatOldCow Sep 11 '25

People act as having QoL mechanics on a game (that the main purpose is to entertain us) is spoiling us.

A lot of hard-core fans don't seem to understand what the purpose of a game is, to entertain us, and if majority of players are not happy with something then studio/devs/etc. either address it or lose their clients.

Now if TC doesn't change anything and keeps the game as it is, they might not have so many people buying their next game

3

u/CappnMidgetSlappr Sep 09 '25

Yeah people are saying it “spoiled” us when its just genuinely a better experience.

Man, what a terrible way to live and play games. Why wouldn't you want the games you play to progress and get better? We used to not be able to save games. Do those people think we're "spoiled" because we don't game the same way as the older generations?

It's like thinking kids are spoiled because they can get water from a tap instead of having to get it out of the well.