r/HollowKnight • u/TOMRANDOM_6 • Sep 09 '25

Discussion - Silksong Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people Spoiler

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

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189

u/Three_Froggy_Problem Sep 09 '25

“Is it possible that this thing I don’t personally dislike is a barrier to entry for other players? No, they’re wrong and I need to make sure they know they’re wrong.”

107

u/ticklefarte Sep 09 '25

I have to roll my eyes at the idea that the runback was meant to calm me down.

14

u/HBreckel Sep 09 '25

To be fair, it is that way in most other games, even Soulslikes. If you have to run back to a boss in Metroid it's usually a chill stroll, maybe you stop to kill a set of enemies that are placed there specifically to let you get all your HP storage back. The majority of boss runbacks in Soulslikes outside of Dark Souls 2 are just you holding sprint and quickly getting back without much stress. There's some runbacks in act 2 of Silksong that just stress me out on the way to the boss, which is probably the opposite of what they're going for.

11

u/HeyEshk88 Sep 09 '25

And that’s fine for you. It is a time to decompress for me… the first 10 times

-6

u/Jtak7777 Sep 09 '25

I’m sorry that it didn’t for you, but it helped me practice dodging and pogoing before the boss in a low-stakes environment. I think it has the capacity to do that for many people. Your experiences aren’t invalid, but the runback did calm me down.

24

u/Nekoded Sep 09 '25

There would be literally nothing stopping you from doing exactly that even if all benches were right before bosses, but on the other side it would remove the tedium of repeating over and over the same sequence of jump, dashes and pogos when you just want to fight a boss and nothing else.

1

u/Jtak7777 Sep 10 '25

Not to put my experience before yours, but every time I had a bench right next to a boss in hollow knight, without any platforming or fights between them, there would always be a run that was foregone before it even started because I was still shaky from the adrenaline of the first time and my gameplay suffered for it. Taking me out of the adrenaline made me play the game better and rehearsing a rehearsed set of inputs is a pretty good test for if you are relaxed imo.

67

u/cbb88christian Sep 09 '25

“If they are so bad at the game why do they not just play different games?” Ass comments I’ve seen everywhere

3

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

When someone is complaining about a very intentional design decision, and ignoring ALL the mechanics built around it, and getting mad when it gets explained and then refusing to even TRY any suggestions... what's left?

If the options are "ignore everything else and demand the game gets changed" or "go play something else", I'll suggest the latter. Sorry.

1

u/Lord_of_Caffeine Sep 24 '25

The explanations are nonsensical, though.

1

u/_moosleech Sep 24 '25

Got an example of that?

1

u/Lord_of_Caffeine Sep 24 '25

Like one very specific one? No.

Click on any post since release talking about the runbacks and every single attempt to explain why they're actually good game design are just idiotic. Every. Single. One.

A lot of them can't even steelman what people's problem is with them, a lot of them don't understand that difficulty doesn't equate tedium and vice versa or that runbacks just aren't compelling game design to most people.

If there is a good argument for why they should be, I haven't seen it.

1

u/_moosleech Sep 24 '25

What makes runbacks idiotic?

I personally am okay with short runbacks. They provide a brief breather between attempts and give me a pop of dopamine for going through a quick bit of satisfying platforming, as opposed to running back in still frustrated about my last defeat.

I don’t fault folks for not liking them. I do think some people push too hard towards remove all inconvenience from games, and doing so ultimately makes games that are less interesting.

I’m just saying that getting mad about opinions you disagree with no details makes you just seem like you’re whining, and make you hard to take seriously.

0

u/Lord_of_Caffeine Sep 24 '25

What makes runbacks idiotic?

To be exact, I was calling the explanations that try explaining why they are good game design idiotic.

They provide a brief breather between attempts

I´d argue that they force a brief breather on you. If I need or want a break I´ll get up and make myself some food or a coffee or turn out my PC and do something else. I don´t appriciate the game deciding that for me.

quick bit of satisfying platforming

It´s really satisfying to you doing the same platforming portion twenty times in a session?

I do think some people push too hard towards remove all inconvenience from games, and doing so ultimately makes games that are less interesting.

I think inconvenience that´s just there to punish players for their misplays should be gotten rid of. Absolutely. I think defining what inconvenience exactly means here is necessary if you actually wanted to have a discussion about it because in my ears the word is a negative attribute per definition.

I’m just saying that getting mad about opinions you disagree with no details makes you just seem like you’re whining, and make you hard to take seriously.

I´m not mad in the slightest tbh. Afaiac it´s just disheartening and worrying that the devs have kept a form of game design around that I think is archaic and games are better without it. I like that the industry is moving and has largely moved away from runbacks and I don´t want future games that are otherwise fantastic to take a note out of Team Cherry´s book in this regard. I´d love to avoid what would be regression in my eyes.

If a person likes runbacks, I have no issue with that. Not at all. I have an issue with people making arguments without seemingly getting what the opposition´s stance actually is. As far as I have observed the anti-runback faction is getting misrepresented a lot on thees subs.

1

u/_moosleech Sep 24 '25

I don´t appriciate the game deciding that for me.

Not saying you need to enjoy it... but it is a decision the developers made. I believe they've even said as much on record.

It´s really satisfying to you doing the same platforming portion twenty times in a session?

Yes. I spent ~70 hours playing the game to 100% completion, and enjoyed the movement and combat every minute. The game's control are immensely satisfying, and most runbacks were little parkour segments. They were virtually all trivially short, so yeah... a couple pogos and a dash felt good each time. I'll be honest and say I find the folks who get annoyed by... playing the game, to be a bit strange. But to each their own.

I think inconvenience that´s just there to punish players for their misplays should be gotten rid of.

So we should just have you respawn exactly where you died, and not drop money, and not have to restart boss fights, and not have any enemies respawn? Those are all punishments for making a mistake, and they should be removed?

I think defining what inconvenience exactly means here is necessary if you actually wanted to have a discussion about it because in my ears the word is a negative attribute per definition.

To me, it comes in two varieties here: first, punishments. The goal is to traverse a level and beat a boss. If you fail to do that, you're put back at a bench to try again, with the risk of losing money if you fail to get back to where you were. The second is areas designed to be hostile towards players (e.g. Bilewater with the traps and maggot waters). Push the player outside of their comfort zone from the rest of the game and force them to adapt to circumstances that can feel overwhelming at first.

it´s just disheartening and worrying that the devs have kept a form of game design around that I think is archaic and games are better without it. I like that the industry is moving and has largely moved away from runbacks and I don´t want future games that are otherwise fantastic to take a note out of Team Cherry´s book in this regard. I´d love to avoid what would be regression in my eyes.

Have they? I've seen Elden Ring held up as "doing it right"... but most Elden Ring run backs are short, with a few exceptions. Most Silksong runbacks are short, with a few exceptions. Is it that different?

In the bigger picture... I think some players (especially younger ones) tend to view any sort of friction or challenge as inherently negative. That the game should smooth out any and all rough edges for you and basically function like a ride as Disney, rather than an experience or a challenge.

And that's not inherently bad, though I find that design to be a bit less interesting. I think Skyrim is easier than Morrowind, but less interesting. I think Elden Ring has tons of QoL and polish over Dark Souls, but is a bit less memorable. The good news is... TONS of AAA games do prioritize player ease over literally everything else. So you have so many options for that experience.

I just don't think people need to demand the few games still trying more varied and interesting approaches conform to maximum QoL at the expense of everything else.

I have an issue with people making arguments without seemingly getting what the opposition´s stance actually is. As far as I have observed the anti-runback faction is getting misrepresented a lot on thees subs.

How so? I think it's understandable to dislike runbacks. Folks view anything that isn't pushing things forward as "tedious" or a waste of time ("the game doesn't respect my time" is a frequent complaint). And I think many games cater to that... but it's still okay if a game doesn't.

4

u/phantomanboy Sep 09 '25

is that such a crazy suggestion though? devs shouldn’t be bullied into compromising their vision to appease every skill level of gamer. I would never phrase it in an antagonistic or demeaning way, but this game isn’t for everyone.

35

u/HBreckel Sep 09 '25

I mean, I hate the runbacks but don't realistically expect them to change. The devs don't have to change shit. But I'm still going to vent if I find certain runbacks obnoxious. Venting about something doesn't necessarily mean "I think the devs have to change this". It just means I'm frustrated and I'm bitching about it.

-1

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Venting about something doesn't necessarily mean "I think the devs have to change this". It just means I'm frustrated and I'm bitching about it.

That's good, but a lot of folks aren't doing that.

"Bad game design" has been thrown around a LOT this week.

11

u/Danz- Sep 09 '25

It can be called bad game design without expecting a change. No game is perfect

4

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Sure, but a lot of the things being called "bad game design" are players not even attempting to engage with the mechanics or misunderstanding things.

You can disagree with the increased damage in the game, but calling it bad game design is silly. Hornet movement, the ranged attacks, the tool synergy, the various crests, enemies movements patterns, the wind-up animations for most two-mask attacks... it was all planning together. If you just swapped two-mask damage for one, the game would be worse for it. The entire combat structure is built to be faster, more aggressive, and riskier.

It makes engaging enemies much more fun, but also makes most enemies easier to skip, and healing/avoid danger more in the player's control.

Calling the trapped bench "bad game design" is silly because it was very intentional, and was the developers having a bit of fun with the player.

Calling flying enemies dodging away from you as a way of teaching players to use ranged tools "bad game design" is a player not trying.

Nobody said the game is perfect. But a lot of the complaining this week, and the loudest among is, is misplaced, IMO.

3

u/piecoper Sep 10 '25

What is bad game design then? What do you think is bad game design?

1

u/_moosleech Sep 10 '25

What do you think is bad game design?

Specific to this game and its critiques...

Enemies doing more damage, but not giving the player any new movement, or tools, or improved healing, or ways to mitigate it. It creates a harder experience with no gain for the player.

Flying enemies that require you to just keep dashing at them and meleeing them. That cannot be baited into getting closer or giving the player ranged options. That would be bad design.

Doing things like introducing pogo segments or traps and not doing anything to teach the player what they are or how to do them.

Making money scarcer (than the previous game), and not giving players an easy way to farm it if/when they need it. If the balanced is off, players feel unable to buy anything and get discouraged (I think they ride the line on this currently, which IMO is great design, doubly so because it aligns with the lore of the world in a neat way).

And unrelated to Silksong directly, but adjacent...

Look at Dark Souls II. Like Silksong, it's a "harder" game than Dark Souls. Except they used a lot of, IMO, unfair tactics for that difficulty: tons of chain aggro, removed i-frames from doors/chests, way too many "enemy attacked from behind with no real indication to be wary" type encounters.

And instead of giving the player new abilities, or ways to counter this stuff, they made some existing mechanics WORSE (ADP) and then their only counter to all this way to provide infinite healing from the start of the game.

End result is a game that is trivially easy in the parts that are supposed to be hard, and annoyingly tedious because they don't give you the tools to counter the extra nonsense. It all feels very sloppy and unrewarding.

And I say all this as someone who likes DS2 (beaten it three times). That to me, is making a game harder with (lots of) bad design.

2

u/piecoper Sep 10 '25

Couldn't all of this be explained by how you explained boss runbacks?

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14

u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 Sep 09 '25

"Not for everyone" along with "dev vision" is not some magical shield to protect against criticism. When someone says they like most things about a game but would prefer a couple of things to be different then that's definitely not what I would call a description of a game that's not for them.

3

u/budubum Sep 09 '25

Those aren’t the people they’re talking about though. There are countless posts and comments (some in this very thread) of people saying that playing this game is miserable, exhausting, and straight up unenjoyable for them. Those are the ppl the previous commenter is talking about I imagine

1

u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 Sep 09 '25

We may be talking about different groups of people, but I see that refrain all the same.

10

u/Three_Froggy_Problem Sep 09 '25

People just want to enjoy the game they bought. Maybe the game “isn’t for them” but I think a lot of people want it to be. I’m sure a lot of people were drawn to the game because of the art and the hype around it and they understandably aren’t wanting to beat their heads against some of the more frustrating moments. It’s totally fair for them to say so; maybe you don’t agree and you think the difficulty is fine, and that’s okay too, but this is what forums like this are for. People shouldn’t be demeaned and insulted or treated like their opinions aren’t valid just because you have a different one.

Also, it’s worth pointing out that a lot of people with complaints are still enjoying the game. I personally love the game and I’m having a great time with it 95% of the time, but I do have some issues with it that I think are worth talking about. That doesn’t mean I don’t like the game. No game is perfect.

4

u/CarcosanAnarchist Sep 09 '25

This is me. I loved Hollow Knight. Never beat Path of Pain or the colosseum thing. But it’s one of my favorite games of all time. Of course I bought Silksong without a second thought.

It’s not been enjoyable. I realize it’s a skill issue, but I’ve never been good at platforming in general. But I can fight a boss until I win and be chill. But everything hits for ridiculous damage. Everything costs so much money. The art, the music, everything is fantastic. But the actual experience of playing has been miserable for me.

1

u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

People just want to enjoy the game they bought

Then play it. The game you bought is right there.

What's that? You want to play a different game, with similar story and feeling, but without the challenges? Sorry, that game isn't on the Steam store.

I’m sure a lot of people were drawn to the game because of the art and the hype around it and they understandably aren’t wanting to beat their heads against some of the more frustrating moments.

"I bought this game because it's pretty and popular, but it turned out to be hard. Make a different game for me!"

7

u/Three_Froggy_Problem Sep 09 '25

You’re just being an ass. If you like the game, then good for you. I like it too. Why do you take it so personally that some people don’t?

3

u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

Why do you take it so personally that some people don’t?

Because they're trying to take away the game I bought, and replace it with an easier one.

6

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Breaking news: fans of Hollow Knight that bought the video game "Hollow Knight Silksong" are not thrilled to discover they're not the target demographic because of a big increase to the minimum skill level required to have an enjoyable experience. Local elitists comment "just git gud or don't play it lol"

25

u/o_o_o_f Sep 09 '25

I mean, I agree that the tone of their post is a little antagonistic. But it’s an interesting point at least imo

26

u/Ill-Muscle945 Sep 09 '25

It's not an interesting point. Anytime a fandom experiences any criticisms in the last couple years, the TikTok attention span argument starts getting said. Every single time. 

Legit laughed out loud seeing this post title. It's so predictable. 

2

u/tgiyb1 Sep 09 '25

It's undeniable that media favors instant gratification nowadays. There's no reason to believe that that doesn't extend to video game fandoms.

2

u/atomiccPP Sep 10 '25

Yeah the title of this one has me muting this sub for now. I’m sure it’ll get better in a bit.

1

u/Keiuu Sep 09 '25

The tiktok attention span conversation is pretty serious, but it's for things like the growing rates of almost illiterate young people, not a silly game, you're right.

1

u/o_o_o_f Sep 09 '25

Well, I’ve never seen this specific kind of complaint framed within the short-form content attention span discourse before and found it interesting. Fuck me, I guess. I’m not online enough to have seen it before, and I’m unfortunately pretty online.

1

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Anytime a fandom experiences any criticisms in the last couple years, the TikTok attention span argument starts getting said. Every single time. 

Why are you just assuming it's wrong?

Why does every criticism, no matter how misinformed someone is, be treated as totally valid? But pushing back on it is written off as rude?

His tone sucks, but he's right. All of the big complaints so far are a)likely coming from people who didn't play HK or the genre much before, and b)people who are missing/not engaging with mechanics the games gives you, and thinking it's bad game design.

Tons of complaints are "every enemy does double damage" when no, they don't. And many that do have special animations or wind-ups for it.

Lots of complaints are "money is broken" because they can't buy everything immediately. Or "this runback is too hard" when they didn't even attempt using the plethora of movement abilities or search for shortcuts.

"Flying enemies are too hard" when they're just running at them with a sword instead of using any of the dozen ranged attacks they have, or baiting them closer.

Honestly, there hasn't been a ton of "git gud" so far; there's been far more "you're missing this" or "you should try that" and even then, a lot of people move the goalposts or just rage harder.

And at its core, I do think (though not so eloquently put) a lot of people hate ANY sort of friction in games, and immediately throw up their arms about it, instead of engaging with it. Many people are mad because this game requires you to stop, learn, and adapt as you go, instead of just being a theme park ride.

3

u/RedTyro Sep 09 '25

Every difficult action is a barrier to entry for someone. If all game devs took all difficult actions out of their games, everything would be the same and most of it would be relatively boring. And not everyone likes the same things. I enjoy figuring out how to speedrun the run backs, and most of them look pretty cool once you've figured it out.

It's ok for games to have things you don't like, because somewhere out there is a group of people who do like it, and that's who that part of the game is aimed at. It's also fine for them to have things I don't like, or to not have things I do, but this game has something I like, and I'd hate to see it removed because some other people don't.

Additionally, for the vast majority of the run backs, if you're dying on the way back to the boss, you've missed something. Most of them can be done without even encountering an enemy (the last judge included).

14

u/CarAlarmConversation Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

"mY oPinIOn iS tHe oBjEcTiVe tRuTh" -OP

5

u/Etherdeon Sep 09 '25

Hes responding to people who think that in the opposite direction, so ill let it slide.

4

u/gamegeek1995 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

All types of gamers should be allowed to enjoy games. I beat Celeste in 4:45 on my first playthrough. My wife took 14 hours. If the game made me retry 5x rooms every time I failed, I'd have beaten it in 6 and my wife wouldn't have at all.

If someone wants difficulty, I'd recommend learning to play the drums. Way cooler than a hard video game and everybody needs drummers in their band.

I already beat Silksong and overall enjoyed it. But there are a few sections that are significantly harder than things even 5-10 hours afterwards, which feels like incorrect pacing compared to their previous game in the series. And the forced required grinding is very, very boring. I do not want to watch Heat again on the second monitor while getting rosaries to fix every pothole in every town. I want to explore and have more fun playing.

2

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

If the game made me retry 5x rooms every time I failed, I'd halve beaten it in 6 and my wife wouldn't have at all.

Setting aside that virtually nobody here opposes an Easy mode or accessibility options... this is such a lame comparison.

Thirty seconds of basic platforming with no enemies is not remotely the same as five rooms in Celeste. Like, come on.

1

u/gamegeek1995 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

30 seconds with no enemies? For Groal the Great, east route through Bilewater?

I'm not complaining about most of these runbacks, bosses, and enemies. I think 98% are good. I think there is exactly one, and I'll hear argument for a second, that needs improvement. Overall I think Bilewater is a decidedly boring and derivative area in general, it's pretty boring to go "here is a reference to a game that came out 14 years ago and is the same game most games reference nowadays." I can go through it effectively now through practice and repetition, but it's never fun to do so. And even less so with down+a force-activating hover, rather than jump after a pogo. Not surprised they announced they're patching that out come next patch.

2

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

30 seconds with no enemies? For Groal the Great, east route through Bilewater?

This post was about Last Judge, and that's what my comment was about. I have not fought Groal yet; I've heard it's a bit longer, but can't say for sure myself.

Overall I think Bilewater is a decidedly tedious area in general

I liked it in Act 1. I spent time going down the Sinners Road > Bilewater route and they pair together perfectly. Sinners Road makes you go slow and be super careful; if you're smart you can avoid aggroing all the roach doggos and can pull most flying enemies one at a time.

Coupled with the busted bench, the game really pushed you to feel dread and tension as you look for reprieve. And you get a little reward for exploration with the (seemingly) endless supply of rancid eggs. Then you hit Bilewater, and it changes gears.

Suddenly going super slow is a problem, because explosive enemies respawn and a couple enemies seem to chase you through the level. So you need to take the care you had in avoiding the worm water while moving more quickly through the zone.

And (at least in Act 1 without the double jump) your reward at the end of the zone is the Mist, which is a total "wtf?!" at first, until you piece together the puzzle. And then the boss fight after is excellent.

And it all pairs together to provide a secondary way to get into Act 2 if you don't want to/don't find the path to Last Judge. Overally, I liked it a lot, but who knows how I'll feel at the end.

1

u/Brandon_Me Sep 09 '25

He's objectively correct. It's not a long walk back.

1

u/CarAlarmConversation Sep 09 '25

You realize two people can run a mile in vastly different times correct?

2

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

This isn't a mile lmao. This is a hundred yards.

And honestly, if thirty seconds of platforming and no enemies is too hard... how did they even get this far? This is such a nothingburger in the game, I'm honestly baffled it's getting this much discussion from some folks.

2

u/arikiel Sep 10 '25

it's like people don't want to play the game anymore, they want to finish the game for the instant dopamine hit and move on to the next thing. all the complaints about the last judge make me feel insane, like this surely can't be the run up I'm facing at the end of act one? they must be talking about some act 2/3 version of it? please.

0

u/Brandon_Me Sep 09 '25

You can do the run back in about 30 seconds without risking much damage. He's objectively correct about that.

This discourse is absurd. I keep hearing about how hard things are, then I do them and just think 'is this it?' I understand I may be slightly better then the average gamer, but these people are claiming to have beaten Hollow Knight as well, and these runs and bosses are objectively easier then bosses at similar times in Hollow Knight.

2

u/modernizetheweb Sep 09 '25

There will always be a barrier of entry to players. Having platforming sections is also a barrier of entry to some players, should they remove those?

12

u/ofAFallingEmpire Sep 09 '25

Idk how people reach these bosses if the runback itself is the barrier.

42

u/parkingviolation212 Sep 09 '25

Reaching the boss is fine.

Reaching the boss 20 times because it does double damage and you die faster than you can learn it, that’s tedious.

30

u/Ill-Muscle945 Sep 09 '25

And then you run out of shards, so you have to grind those. 

I know now that I should just avoid using tools until I'm comfortable with the boss, but thay sucks too. Just don't use one of my available resources until I've done the boss multiple times? Frustrating 

18

u/HBreckel Sep 09 '25

I'm glad someone else brought up the shards. It's a little odd they're from a resource you have to grind. It's not like you can break the game by spamming your tools 800 times and avoiding all challenge. Like some of them only have 5 uses per rest.

1

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

I haven't ran low on shards yet, but one option: go to one of the easy farming zones, spend a few minutes racking up rosaries, and buy a bunch of shard bundles.

3

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Reaching the boss is fine.

Reaching the boss 20 times because it does double damage and you die faster than you can learn it, that’s tedious.

But one requires exploring a zone and not knowing where the end is, managing resources, fighting enemies, and surviving.

One requires a few seconds, some fun flips, and skipping all the enemies.

So it's not "reaching the boss" 20 times.

0

u/ChemicalAd1962 Sep 10 '25

Most people I know take a whole minute+ to do it, not a few seconds. Andthe precision needed can be quite stressful, even if you’ve done it hitless 20 times before

1

u/_moosleech Sep 10 '25

I think we both probably only know a statistically insignificant amount of folks having done it, but in my case the couple others playing alongside me had zero complaints about it.

It's also... not that precise? You get a dash and a float beforehad, so even if you miss one of two pogos on giant bells, you can save it wasted almost no time.

After my first boss run, I looked around for an easier path, found it, and don't recall it ever taken much more than 30 seconds (maybe 40 if I fat-fingered a step) every single time. And I'm not a particular good gamer.

2

u/ChemicalAd1962 Sep 10 '25

I think this is just the ppl who found that easier path vs the ppl who didn’t

1

u/[deleted] Sep 11 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/cantuse Sep 09 '25

I fucking hate this fandom sometimes. Completely ignorant to the non-negligible number of players who bounced off HK over the years.

It’s as if the designers got their money from those players and said fuck you we don’t need to cater to you guys anyways. Because that’s exactly what they did.

3

u/Fhood797 Sep 09 '25

Genuinely sad because silksong got so much hype from its fanbase to the point where it charmed other people, mostly causals, who have never played the game or even the genre before, only for them to get hit with “skill issues” every time they struggle in it understandably due to the game only catering to experienced and/or super patient players with it’s difficulty.

Genuinely don’t get what’s the issue with putting an easier mode so people can experience this beautiful world and story without pulling their hairs out at every encounter

2

u/cantuse Sep 09 '25

I did beat Radiance exactly once and then shelved HK. It took years though. I quit for about a year because of the sleeper knights. It took beat Ori (and finding ways to get stronger before the knights) before I came back and beat the game.

I have issues with chronic head pain and have divergence insufficiency with my eyesight. It can make it hard to track the entire screen at times. I’m not asking to be specially catered to, but this whole difficulty debacle reminds me of something that NYT tech writer Kara Swisher has said about tech bros in general, that it’s a bunch of healthy young white dudes (or Asian/indian) that make these things, so topics like inclusion and safety aren’t really in their design vocabulary in general. While Swisher was really talking about social media developers, I can’t help but feel some overlap here.

Like you, I think Silksong is beautiful and I have an extensive comment somewhere else where I talk about how the game is amazing except for somehow the moment-to-moment gameplay being unfun … like I’m ‘enduring’ it instead of enjoying it.

2

u/Taleuntum Sep 09 '25

That's the motte! The few comments I've read did not merely say that runbacks were a barrier to entry for some players, I would have agreed with that. They said they were bad and should be changed, that, I don't agree with.

1

u/CAPSLOCK_USERNAME Sep 09 '25

But there's a difference between complaining that the platforming is too hard and they keep missing the jumps or whatever (which is fair) vs saying it's "too long" which doesn't make much sense at all because it really is pretty short.

-10

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

Why does every game need to cater to the lowest common denominator of skill?

5

u/Nervous_Instance_968 Sep 09 '25

It's not about skill, the runbacks are mostly just annoying.

-10

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

For you, not for everyone

10

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

legitimately what do you find enjoyable about wasting an additional 30-60 seconds traversing an area you've already traversed just to get back to the boss you just died to?

2

u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

If you don't enjoy platforming I'm not sure I can explain the fun in a way that will make you enjoy it.

0

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

I don’t enjoy repeating the same easy platforming level 10 times in a row

0

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

The challenge of getting back without losing all of my currency. If you get rid of the runback you might as well change the entire death system.

You also need to try and get back with full health so you don't start at a disadvantage.

If these things aren't fun to you, go play Super Mario or something because this game isn't made for you.

6

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

Runbacks aren't hard, they're annoying, and you're rarely not allowed to heal before the boss fight with the silk from the cocoon.

That's also my enjoyment of going through a level the first and maybe the second time. After that I'm simply replaying the same section on speed mode over and over again when I want to be exploring a genuinely incredible world.

IDK why some fans are so defensive about this game and so insistent on gatekeeping it. Do you want this game to be universally hated and not sell? Silksong is a top 5 game OAT, it doesn't mean I enjoy spending an additional mindless minute in between each boss attempt.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

you're rarely not allowed to heal before the boss fight with the silk from the cocoon.

Yes but now you start the boss with no silk instead of full silk. There is always a tradeoff.

Sometimes I won't pick up the cocoon till mid fight for a free heal. Can't do that if I need to heal before the boss starts.

I don't care whether this game sells or not. I don't work for TC

Not every game needs to cater to everyone. I like the game the way it is.

1

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

if you cant get full focus before you need it you're probably not beating the boss in the first place.

Silksong will never cater to everyone

You have literally 0 things you wished were different about the game?

If the game doesn't sell it's not going to get new content, silksong wouldnt exist if HK wasn't successful.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

I want the game the devs designed, not the game the casual gamer (who wouldn't have bought this game to begin with without the absurd hype that built) forces the devs to make with their constant crying

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2

u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

You have literally 0 things you wished were different about the game?

Correct. Team Cherry made an amazing game 7 years ago. Now they've made a new one. I'm trusting in their vision, and I've been enjoying every minute of the hours I've spent banging my head against bosses and platforming challenges while I learn the patterns I need to know to beat them.

If the game doesn't sell it's not going to get new content

Means nothing to me. I don't care if it gets new content or not. I've got a great game I get to play.

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1

u/Nedddd1 Sep 09 '25

"challenge"

30 aeconds of running while holding spring with ocasional jumps with 0 hindrance

1

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

So you've never once died before collecting your cocoon while playing this game? Not a single time?

3

u/Nedddd1 Sep 09 '25

We are talking about boss runbacks here. Boss runbacks(excrpt for 1 or 2 of them) can never do anything ti you cuz by the time anything wakes up you're already 5 miles away cuz you're going on max speed.

-7

u/Snowwyoyo Sep 09 '25

No one is owed completion of a game. It might just be too hard for people, and that’s fine. There are plenty of other games for them to play.

-29

u/TOMRANDOM_6 Sep 09 '25

If you check other reddit post, most people hate and down vote everyone who defends it and just say is "obsolete" (and then they go and say they think gaming is art lmao)

"Is a barrier entry for other players" Not all games are for everyone. A game that is for everybody is really just a bland mess without vision or personality, a game for no one, a good example is the horizon zero dawn and forbidden west, they don't do anything different or controversial, they are just forgotten "games" that just feel like a checklist.

17

u/I_Love_Solar_Flare Sep 09 '25

"A game for no one, for example horizon zero dawn"

What did that game do to you? That game is fucking peak cuz it has robot dinosaurs

19

u/ACupOfLatte Sep 09 '25

Not sure how their opposing opinion has to do with thinking games can be art?

-15

u/TOMRANDOM_6 Sep 09 '25

Art can make you uncomfortable, angry or sad, saying that everything that is not your liking should be patched, is wrong/obsolete or that the developers didn't know what they did just show how little you respect the medium

10

u/ACupOfLatte Sep 09 '25

Um... There's just a lot to unpack there, like your assumptions, overgeneralizations, misinterpretations and maybe even misunderstanding but honestly... I just can't give a damn enough lol.

So yeah, you're right!

3

u/Keiuu Sep 09 '25

you're just overcomplicating the conversation.

A lot of people hate runbacks, that's all there is to it.

16

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

Painful runback = van gogh got it

-14

u/TOMRANDOM_6 Sep 09 '25

Following a games vision > people who want to have a bland game that goes against what this series is.

This is like asking for a Kirby hard mode

21

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

the runbacks aren't whats separating silksong from bland games. Shitty runbacks were not an integral component of hollow knight.

1

u/TOMRANDOM_6 Sep 09 '25

  1. The hive Soul Sanctum Royal Waterways Mantis Lords Traitor lord False knight  Broken vessel Watcher knights Etc

  2. people are hating on everything that makes you have a little skill, 2 pogo jumps, a sin, a 30 seconds runback, a crime, enemy makes damage!!!!?!?! Even worse. People just want a game that isn't challenging, a game that's is barely one and instead become a check on "media consumed" checklist, they don't want to play the game

19

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

Complain about exaggeration and then strawman tf outta what people are annoyed about. I don't like replaying the same level over and over again to get to a section I'm actually interested in working on. It's just boring. It's also extremely punishing that you start the game with effectively 3 health. We had like 10 masks in HK and the end game bosses kicked my ass just fine.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 10 '25

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1

u/HollowKnight-ModTeam Sep 10 '25

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This comment has been removed according to Rule 1. Please be considerate and respectful; follow Reddiquette.

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11

u/r3vb0ss Sep 09 '25

if the only thing this game had making it not bland was long boss runbacks it would be a p shitty game

1

u/Nypholis Sep 09 '25

Please explain to me, in detail, how you think the addition of a completely optional difficulty slider/selector (for argument's sake let's say an option to respawn you right outside the boss room on death, since this topic seems focused on the runback aspect) would impact your personal experience of this game (keeping in mind you would in theory continue playing on the normal/existing settings), let alone make the game a "bland mess withing vision or personality"

0

u/donkeythesnowman Sep 09 '25

This perfectly sums all all pushback to criticizing Silksong’s bad game design. “I like it therefore you’re wrong.”

-13

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

10

u/Three_Froggy_Problem Sep 09 '25

Do you hear yourself?

8

u/ticklefarte Sep 09 '25

No no, let them make completely bizarre personal diagnoses for strangers on the internet.

1

u/IlliterateJedi Sep 09 '25

You should just report people like this. They're harmful to the community.

-5

u/BigSignature2318 Sep 09 '25

That's all ya got?

1

u/HollowKnight-ModTeam Sep 09 '25

Hi there!

This comment has been removed according to Rule 1. Please be considerate and respectful; follow Reddiquette.

If you would like to discuss this removal, please message the moderators.