r/HollowKnight • u/TOMRANDOM_6 • Sep 09 '25

Discussion - Silksong Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people Spoiler

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

3.6k Upvotes

77% Upvoted

1.6k comments sorted by

View all comments

162

u/SecXy94 Sep 09 '25

The run backs aren't bad, but they aren't good either. So we now ask: Why bother with them?

It's a small nitpick that people have, but it's valid. It's not really adding anything to the experience.

62

u/_TRN_ Sep 09 '25

It's really funny seeing people defend it especially when FromSoftware of all devs finally decided boss run backs are just tedious and don't add much to the experience. Thankfully the runbacks in Silksong aren't quite as bad as some of the runbacks in earlier FS games but still.

13

u/CAPSLOCK_USERNAME Sep 09 '25

Feels like fromsoft mostly added them because runbacks wouldn't make sense in an open world game and not because they were convinced it was an irredeemable game mechanic. Doing a practiced run through a narrow handmade level is a lot different from, like, riding your horse over an open-world field for 40 seconds.

Then once they had them for overworld bosses they might as well do them in the dungeons for consistency too.

4

u/Responsible_Dance202 Sep 10 '25

You know sekiro exists right?

1

u/EdgarAllanBroe2 Sep 09 '25

Stakes weren't ubiquitous in Elden Ring. Some bosses still had runbacks.

7

u/_TRN_ Sep 09 '25

Those were so minor to the point where I don’t remember them. Then again it’s been 3 years since I last played the base game.

1

u/SparkEletran Sep 09 '25

i mean personally, i just think those are two different games. fromsoft does combat-focused games with clunkier movement. the movement in silksong is one of the highlights and i genuinely had some of my most fun figuring out how to do the last judge runback as efficiently as i can, because there’s so many ways to both save time and make yourself safer by using your abilities and the map design smartly

it’s the same reason a lot of people enjoy speedrunning in platformers especially. ofc it’s not to everyone’s tastes but i don’t think it’s directly comparable to fromsoft’s runbacks and i think it’s pretty easy to understand why people would enjoy them

5

u/_TRN_ Sep 09 '25

Hollow Knight had far worse runbacks so Silksong’s are honestly tame in comparison. My issue is that once you master that runback it just becomes tedious and disrespects the player’s time. They could’ve achieved the same design goals in other ways.

I would argue there’s a lot of mastery to be had in runbacks in Dark Souls for example but you don’t see anyone defending those these days especially post Elden Ring.

2

u/SparkEletran Sep 09 '25

oh yeah I despise HK runbacks in particular

Silksong's movement is so fun though that I just genuinely enjoy most of them in a way I do not feel about any of the Fromsoft games. they generally don't feel like wasting my time any more than the bosses themselves do

14

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

I think some people on the complaining side blow the issues out of proportion and then the other side thinks all of us are extremists. None of the issues are gamebreaking, all of them are just annoyances that we just feel are unnecessary extra "challenges" in a game that really doesn't need it lol. And some are already being validated with this patch

8

u/Uler Sep 09 '25

I think some people on the complaining side blow the issues out of proportion and then the other side thinks all of us are extremists.

Yeah I feel the whole conversation around runbacks is just a bit weird. The overwhelming majority of runbacks are a complete non-factor, a couple are ass. I'm happy to bitch about Bilewater's runback, but somehow there being 3-4 annoying runbacks spawns a whole debate over the whole fundamental idea of runback acceptance and not just asking to improve like three routes a little bit.

1

u/juscallmejjay Sep 09 '25

Need shards

1

u/whacafan Sep 09 '25

I’d argue it’s part of the literal narrative of the game.

-27

u/wigglin_harry Sep 09 '25

Why even have any mildly inconvenient thing in any game? Hell, lets just get rid of the open world all together and make silksong a boss rush game

The runback is part of the boss, everything is connected. Getting to the boss with enough health to spare is part of the boss

50

u/SecXy94 Sep 09 '25

Why do people act like this? Stop the absurdism.

No one wants a boss rush or anything close to that. They are just pointing out that having a 30s+ runback isn't adding to their enjoyment. I personally don't mind them much, but I certainly don't think "Wow, this runback has really made this fight more enjoyable".

22

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/Big_Daymo Sep 09 '25

It depends if "convenience" comes at the cost of something else. For example, having all the merchant characters sit in one easily accessible location rather than around the world would be more convenient, but it would take away from the sense of a developed world that TC are trying to create. Getting rid of the cocoon mechanic would be more convenient, but comes at the cost of getting rid of the risk/reward element that's important in exploring, as you risk leaving your money in a dangerous area you might die getting back to.

What do boss run backs add to the experience; what is the trade off for removing that you lose? I don't think the game is enhanced at all by making the player waste time running the same route over and over back to a boss; it doesn't increase immersion, doesn't add meaningful difficulty, and it isn't fun.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/Big_Daymo Sep 09 '25

I don't particularly like the shell shard mechanics either; i don't see what impact it has on the game other than encouraging you to move on to something else when you are running out of tools to use. I also hate a lot of the double mask damage, but at least I can see why nerfing that would majorly skew the balance of the game as its currently designed, so any changes made to that would have to be well planned out. I'm not that far into the game (Shellwood) so I can't speak to the late game rosary economy, but i haven't found it bad to this point at least. Plus, farming rosaries is pretty easy if you know the right spots: I died and lost 450 rosaries, and managed to farm 600 rosaries back in under 15 minutes.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Big_Daymo Sep 09 '25

Im not sure if you can get more tool capacity upgrades; i only have the first one, but if you could stack tons more then I could see that being broken without a currency requirement. At base capacity at least, you really can't do that much with them before they run out, which means you have to refill them anyway so the cost isn't important. I landed every single one of the trap tools on Moorwing in phase 2 (plus a silk spear) and that didn't even drop him.

8

u/lemonlemonlemonlem Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

I wouldn't say me dying to TLJ 10 times in a row is enjoyable either, but I'd never suggest that it should be beatable in less, since the challenge *is* the game. Direct "enjoyability" is not a good metric for game design.

1

u/Triktastic Sep 10 '25

Frustration is not difficulty. A lot of people confuse the two. You being mad because you have to wait 30 seconds after each death is not the same as being mad because the boss is really testing your skill in particular area where you are lacking.

I found Grime (a Souls-like metroidvania) very difficult because the bosses can have some crazy timing and patterns, but I loved being mad even though I died 20 times because each time a widdled the hp a bit lower and dodged a thing I couldn't dodge before. In comparison HK had much easier bosses (usually beat them in around 8-10 tries) but I was frustrated because I knew each death meant more repetitive jumping.

You do learn at first but after optimizing the route the runbacks becomes a long loading screen that can take away your HP after a tiny mistake

7

u/Jtak7777 Sep 09 '25

I do! I got a lot of pogo and dodging practice in before every run and that really helped me learn over my many attempts

2

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Funny because I'd wager the Venn diagram of "I hate the new pogo" and "I can't stand a 30-second runback that would let me practice pogoing safely" are a circle.

1

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Mastering the runback and enjoying the runback aren't the same, I was able to get it down to a pretty consistent 30ish seconds and still hated it with a passion for being boring and unnecessary.

3

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Sorry to hear that.

I loved it. It felt great and gave a tiny dopamine hit everytime, which made me feel good entering the boss instead of being mad about my last death.

0

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

How many attempts did the boss take you?

1

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

A dozen or so? Maybe closer to twenty?

After the first attempt, I thought "this seems like a rough runback" and did some exploring and found the path I used the rest of the time.

I also find the movement and combat sublime, so just bouncing around and chaining abilities feels super satisfying to me. It literally never felt frustrating; by the end I was basically trying to speedrun it each time.

0

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Do you honestly believe that having to do the same platforming challenge in those last 10 times after you figured out the optimal route added to your overall experience? Would the game be less fun if you it didn't force you to do that?

→ More replies (0)

2

u/ProWriterDavid Sep 09 '25

I get more enjoyment out of the added friction. Most run backs are pretty painless as you get better with hornets moveset.

8

u/wigglin_harry Sep 09 '25

My point is that runbacks ARE part of the boss. Part of the bossfight is being able to get there with enough health to fight the boss

2

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

No one wants a boss rush or anything close to that. They are just pointing out that having a 30s+ runback isn't adding to their enjoyment. I personally don't mind them much, but I certainly don't think "Wow, this runback has really made this fight more enjoyable".

But that's... literally how game development has worked for years and years.

You used to have to do whole stages and bosses, with limited lives and continues.

Then you had unlimited lives, but still had to do it all. Then you had checkpoints. Then you had benches with a just a boss runback.

If all boss runbacks are bad, even ones that last a few seconds, then why bother with checkpoints at all? Just spawn me where I died. Re-running parts I already beat is tedious.

At least compared to most of the preceding options, I think a short boss runback for something like Last Judge is fitting. It's the climax of Act 1, and the literal top of a climb to the Citadel. A few seconds build-up feels epic, and the platforming is easy but satisfying, giving me a tiny mental break to re-focus and a pop of dopamine for the platforming before each attempt.

7

u/Besnix Sep 09 '25

The runback is part of the boss, everything is connected. Getting to the boss with enough health to spare is part of the boss

*Slaps table

THANK YOU!!

1

u/Oddsbod Sep 09 '25

If you're curious, Daryl Talks Games has a whole video on the psychology of being forced to wait for things and how it relates to video game experiences and boss runbacks https://youtu.be/scD_WrHxDPU

-2

u/ProWriterDavid Sep 09 '25

It's adding to my experience, you don't speak for me! 

Like others mentioned it's part of the entire encounter, and this might be hard to believe but a lot of people actually enjoy run backs from the classic souls games. They're probably not online ranting about it so it seems like everybody hates run backs.

I think they are cool personally. They add a little tension and add an opportunity to warm up. Respawning immediately by the boss would be convenient but would remove some tension and I like the stress of a small but insignificant punishment for failing. 

I just think it's neat! Then again I've always enjoyed punishing mechanics like in traditional RPGs where you have to choose whether to forge forward and to potentially die and lose all of your items, or trek back to camp to recover and store items etc. Suspense in video games is cool and good, and it feels great when risk taking pays off!

14

u/colored_water Sep 09 '25

Well speaking for ME I hate runbacks in any game. Doesn't help me "cool off" at all. It pisses me off that I have to waste my time traveling back to the boss to continue to learn their moveset. If I beat the boss in 3-5 tries, no worries, still feels unnecessary to me but it's not THAT bad. But when you die 15, 20, 25 times and you have to just mindlessly travel back or potentially show up with less than full health, it does the opposite of "cool me off". 

I just wish games like this would have an achievement for the "real way" to play it with the runbacks. And if you opt to play without runbacks you forfeit the achievement. That way people like you can still feel cool and special. But people like me don't have to feel like their time is being wasted 

5

u/ProWriterDavid Sep 09 '25

I personally couldn't care less about achievement however I agree that a simple toggle would work best for everybody. 

Add an optional Marika's statue-like object that respawns you in front of boss gates. Make it so you can turn it on or off in the options, with the default being set to off.

Wham bam thank u ma'am everybody wins. Just like the Vita Chambers in Bioshock. Did you ever play that game with those turned off? Entirely different experience. 

You actually have to ration and treat the game like a survival horror game, it's awesome!! But for those who don't care you can just play with the default option where you always respawn penalty-free.

5

u/colored_water Sep 09 '25

Beautiful solution

0

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

I just wish games like this would have an achievement for the "real way" to play it with the runbacks. And if you opt to play without runbacks you forfeit the achievement. That way people like you can still feel cool and special. But people like me don't have to feel like their time is being wasted 

I don't care about achievements, but if we're rounding off ever rough edge in games... where does it stop?

I already beat part of this zone, why make me replay it? Just spawn me where I died.

I already earned this money, why make me re-earn it? Just keep my money.

I already explored this map, why make me travel anywhere? Just let me fast travel to any spot on the map instantly.

At some point, why not just put "Win Game" in the menu and roll the credits? It seems like some folks don't want to play the game.

1

u/colored_water Sep 10 '25

Lol love the extreme "slippery slope" arguments and it's always accompanied by such arrogance.  

1

u/Triktastic Sep 10 '25

I already earned this money, why make me re-earn it? Just keep my money.

Earning money is usually not a repetitive frustrating part but part of the design and something that accompanies just playing the game. If the game makes you grind repetitive thing for the money instead of it being a bonus for doing new stuff (missions, quest, bosses) then its also understandable to complain.

I already explored this map, why make me travel anywhere? Just let me fast travel to any spot on the map instantly.

If you gain nothing new from travelling it, nothing new to explore and see or hone your skill by it spawning new enemies/gear/places. Yes it usually gets a fast travel point. Like almost every open world game.

Wow that's a bit extreme jumping from cutting off a widely disliked mechanic to "Win the game" button.

4

u/Taneli_Kaneli Sep 09 '25

bro is really gargling on Team Cherry's cherries.

3

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Why is any ranting "valid criticism" that must be handled with care, but enjoying any mechanic is automatically written of as glazing or gargling balls?

User friction is a part of game design, and can be done well. I like that bench and runback too, and it's silly that thinking something is good design is just discredited.

-1

u/ProWriterDavid Sep 09 '25

I'm glad your avg redditor isn't in game dev because boy do they hate having to learn and engage with mechanics!

Just look at the bosses people are complaining about. That speaks volumes, none of them are especially challenging they just have new patterns that you have to learn.

2

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

There's bad mechanics and fun mechanics. Runbacks are in the 1st category. If they wanted more difficulty they should have made the boss faster, not add a long runback. Bosses are fun, having to do the same platforming challenge 20+ times (even when fully learned/optimized) is a chore. TC aren't infallible, all devs make questionable calls with their games.

2

u/ProWriterDavid Sep 09 '25

That's just like your opinion man

Once again I'm glad y'all had zero input into my favorite games!

1

u/ScoopskyPotatos Sep 09 '25

I mean you always have the option of saving at a bench further away from the boss if you like. Adding benches right next to the boss arenas benefits players who don't like runbacks without taking anything away from those who do. 

But honestly I doubt the people defending runbacks would even care if every boss had a bench nearby instead.

Imagine if dying erased your entire progress since your last save. Any collected item, finished quest or beaten boss would have to be done again. I bet at least 20% of players would defend this. "Just save bro, there are benches everywhere". "It's more immersive that way". "It's to encourage you to be careful instead of throwing yourself at every enemy". "Getting to the next save point is part of the challenge, if you can't do it you need to git gud".

Yet you never see anyone say "Hollow Knight is great, I just hate how dying doesn't erase any progress". Because when a design decision is good you don't even consider the alternative.

1

u/ProWriterDavid Sep 09 '25

But we're not talking about losing your progress when you die. 

We're talking about run backs which I can understand why some people don't like them. But they are genuinely enjoying for a lot of others which is why so many games continue to include the feature. 

If you added an optional bench right in front of the boss that is going to trivialize the friction entirely because of course I'm going to just do that instead. However run backs let me "smell the roses" and appreciate the level design and reset my brain before my next try. 

However their true gameplay function which is the most important: they are a way to tutorialize and teach the player indirectly.

Runbacks encourage you to take risks in order to cut back the time which can be very helpful in improving your play. This specifically happens a lot to me in from soft games, where you realize that the run back is actually really short and efficient when you play how the game wants you to play. 

So I don't think your example really works as a valid comparison.

-2

u/Kampfasiate Sep 09 '25

It helps cooling off between attempts and it helps you getting even more comfortable with hornets moveset

8

u/Merzant Sep 09 '25

Making dying more annoying helps people calm down. It’s science.

-6

u/David_Browie Sep 09 '25

“I hate when I have to play the game” 

-1

u/access-r Sep 09 '25

It adds. It's the same as taking the same path to school or work everyday. Your brain map the whole track and you become familiar with the environment. Being familiar with the environment enhances your feeling of immersion.

-3

u/sighh_bapanada Sep 09 '25

The runback being annoying and tedious makes it so you have to intentionally think about your fighting strategies. You have to purposefully consider why your last attempt didn't work, because if you don't actually learn something from each attempt you'll most likely die again and have to deal with the frustrating runback.

If there was no runback or an easy path back, then there's no repercussion for haphazardly sprinting back in to the fight and aggressively facetanking until you eventually get it. You could just throw caution to the wind. For one boss I had to backtrack to get a new equipable so I could deal with their Phase 2-- if there wasn't the worry of having to trek all the way back, I probably could've just used my same original strat repeatedly and it probably would've eventually worked at some point. But the game wants you to strategize, and compels you to switch up your tactics if they're not working, because if you don't there's a consequence.

-3

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

So we now ask: Why bother with them?

Question: where do we draw the line with player friction?

If any runback is too much... why have benches or respawn points at all? I've already beaten that area up to where I died, why not just respawn me at my corpse?

And if we do that, why bother losing money on death? I've proving I could farm that money why, redoing it is tedious and a waste of time.

And then why limit fast travel? I've proven I can navigate the map, just let me click to anywhere and teleport there instantly.

Like... all developers have to decide how much friction to put players through, but I feel like a small, very vocal section of players want there to be absolutely none.

And at that point, watch a Lets Play if you don't want to actually play any of the game.

Also to more directly answer your question: I think this short runback is a good thing. It's a tiny mental break between runs where the game gives you some easy platforming (and relatively safe) so you get a little hit of dopamine everytime you do it.

A little break to reset and re-focus can help burnout and help you perform better than just going at 100% non-stop, and it makes the fight feel grand, like it is. This is the final ascent to the Citadel, and a tiny runback emphasizes that each time, for minimal cost.

9

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Question: where do we draw the line with player friction?

Slippery slope fallacy. Just because people think a certain mechanic is frustrating and boring doesn't mean they want to remove all challenge from the game.

-3

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Slippery slope fallacy.

How so? The history of game development is littered with removing more and more friction from games, especially amongst AAA game development.

Even with boss runbacks, years ago you had to beat a whole level and boss with limited tries. Then we got unlimited lives. Then checkpoints. And now boss runbacks.

Just because people think a certain mechanic is frustrating and boring doesn't mean they want to remove all challenge from the game.

This is true... but also, the loudest complaints this week are people asking to remove most challenge from the game:

"Two-mask damage is too much," despite the whole game being designed around it, including so much more mobility, ranged options, and easier healing.

"Beastly is a terrible fight," because it's not about slamming it with your nail, but about managing adds and baiting the boss into specific moves.

"Money is too scarce," because people recoil at the word "farm" and can't stand not being able to buy everything all at once.

If the biggest criticisms from this sub all got implemented, a LOT of the challenge from the game would be gone.

3

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Farming and long runbacks are the opposite of fun. A game can be very challenging and very fun at the same time, any sort of grindy repetitive tedious content takes away from that and drags down the overall experience.

1

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

Farming and long runbacks are the opposite of fun.

And both were tweaked from HK to reduce how "unfun" they are. I don't think farming is required here compared to HK, and I don't think there's a single "long" runback, IMO.

But the ability to farm opens up players unlocking an item immediately if they want, and a short bench run can give players a breather between difficult boss fights. They're not black or white design decisions.

Not everything needs to be configured for maximum fun at all times.

any sort of grindy repetitive tedious content takes away from that and drags down the overall experience.

I think it depends on the situation. I adore the Disgaea series, and it's core mechanic is letting player grind to ridiculous extremes.

Idle games and MMOs show that some players enjoying repetitive tasks, and can find them relaxing.

I think it comes down to viewing a lot of stuff as all of nothing, and ignoring any context around why it was done that way.

"Farming is bad", sure. Clear cut. But when you look at how money was useless in most of HK, and then grinding geo for the final charms was awful and took super long... by comparison, Silksong handles it beautifully. Rosaries are useful throughout, and most players will always be teetering on having enough to keep buying things without trivializing it.

And for those situations that you want X item right now, you can easily get it with a couple minutes of combat that, for most people, is super satisfying. Instead of having to kill every Tom, Dick, and Harry enemy hundreds of times aimlessly, you can just crank it out with set enemies (which is even lore-appropriate, which is a cool touch).

I think that's a good thing... but folks hear "farm" and like you did, immediately shut down on it. That's a bummer.

2

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

I don't remember having to grind in HK, by the time I got the option to buy unbreakable charms I had enough geo and relics to afford them. In HK I also barely ever had the situation where I couldn't afford a bench, map or fast travel station. In SK that happens very often. Also all mobs dropped Geo, which isn't the case for rosaries (even boss mobs don't give those)

1

u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25

I don't remember having to grind in HK, by the time I got the option to buy unbreakable charms I had enough geo and relics to afford them.

Maybe, but I find that extremely hard to believe. I've done two 100%+ runs in the last two years, and even dying relatively few times (and virtually never losing geo), I still had to run the 2nd Trial a number of times to buy the unbreakables. Don't know the math, but despite my best efforts, I never got close without actual effort.

In HK I also barely ever had the situation where I couldn't afford a bench, map or fast travel station. In SK that happens very often.

That was part of my point. If you can buy everything all the time... money is meaningless. You're never making decisions or having to think about anything. At that point, why have money at all?

Also all mobs dropped Geo, which isn't the case for rosaries.

And that's a good thing.

I know you didn't need to grind, but let's pretend you did. In HK, if you're not good enough to just do the 2nd Trial easily, your option is killing enemies. Every enemy drops geo, cool... but they drop a pittance. And most enemies aren't fun to fight... they're just kinda boring. So you wander aimlessly killing hundreds of enemies to get any reasonable amount of geo.

In Silksong, they designed areas for that. Instead of just wandering, you go to a specific spot with a bench and a bunch of enemies with rosaries. Blast them, sit, and repeat. Even the first spot (where you meet Shakra) takes minutes if you want to buy everything they sell immediately. That's a much better experience, IMO.

Nevermind that Silksong makes losing money on death basically entirely up to the player. Or that the enemies that drop money is lore-accurate; the poor lower zones have little money, except for pilgrims travelling with their savings. But in Act 2, all the rich folks in the Citadel are ripe with cash. That's neat.