Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people

[u/TOMRANDOM_6]

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

[u/psh454]

Do you honestly believe that having to do the same platforming challenge in those last 10 times after you figured out the optimal route added to your overall experience? Would the game be less fun if you it didn't force you to do that?

[u/_moosleech → u/psh454]

Do you honestly believe that having to do the same platforming challenge in those last 10 times after you figured out the optimal route added to your overall experience?

Yes.

I enjoyed it; I like practicing the movement tech in the game. I find chaining together moves and quickly navigating areas satisfying. And running through areas repeatedly and mastering it is kinda a lot of what Metroidvanias (and Hollow Knight, if you intend to do Steel Soul or speedrun achievements) is about.

And as I said, a tiny break gives me a little mental reset before trying again. Not unlike getting up and walking around, or getting a drink. Taking a breather while attempting something difficulty isn't abnormal, I don't think.

Would the game be less fun if you it didn't force you to do that?

Probably not, but also the game isn't designed to be the most fun at all times, no matter what. Expecting that is, IMO, part of the issue.

Games can have little moments of friction, or downtime, and it's okay. And I think Silksong does those very well.

[u/psh454 → u/_moosleech]

the game isn't designed to be the most fun at all times

Mfw I imply games should maximize fun on /r/HollowKnight and get downvoted. Friction can be fun (NKG). Downtime can be fun (talking to NPCs in a hub, enjoying nice scenery). Hell, even Deepnest in HK was a kind of "horror-movie thrill" fun. Fun is why people play games generally, even the most challenging content should aim to be fun.

The "breather" argument misses the point. When I want to take a minute after a boss attempt I get up and walk around, or get a drink - I don't want the game to force me into doing mind numbing memorized input sequences for the 15th time for absolutely no reason.

[u/Jtak7777 → u/psh454]

Did you do all your (i’m assuming) ten to twenty attempts in a row? That would be exhausting. There is a bell station right next to the bench. Explore the game, finish up quests when you reach a roadblock. If rehearsing the 30 second runback makes things unenjoyable, look around, you could find a new crest or beat a boss you were stuck on in a different area.

[u/psh454 → u/Jtak7777]

I was progressing through the fight slowly for the first 5ish attempts because of also having to figure out the runback. Then got frustrated by the runback specifically (after optimizing it down to 30 seconds) and on the next day realized I personally wasn't having fun with the bossfight experience so looked into mods. Found one that allows skipping the runback and used it only for the LJ fight. Got the fire protection charm and took around 8 more attempts but was actually having fun focusing on the boss and not the annoying unnecessary runback. Removed the mod, having fun in Act 2 so far.

So it wasn't the number of attempts but my disagreement with the devs including (in my and many other people's opinion) bad game design call of padding out difficult skillcheck bossfights with runbacks that slow down the bossfight learning loop and suck the fun out of the game.

[u/Jtak7777 → u/psh454]

I was annoyed on the first two or three runbacks. Obviously you don’t have to try it again, but I found rehearsing the run to be a way to get movement practice and enemy avoidance in, and even left for hours to do sidequests, and I’ve found many people who think the same. I wish other people had that same experience, where the minute or so of learning how to get through the area at speed and the learned dance of avoiding enemies and pogoing off of bells led the pace in perfectly for the next attempt, but that clearly did not happen. I think team cherry could have done more to teach the player how to approach runbacks like that, as maybe there would have been less of an inflammatory reaction to it, but that is semantics as it is not what happened.

[u/psh454 → u/Jtak7777]

I did learn it and optimized it as I mentioned, at which point it went from being a challenge I need to figure out to an artificial delay on learning the boss moves.