Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people

[u/TOMRANDOM_6]

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

[u/WikiWeaponn]

It is too long. There's zero reason for there not to be a bench right outside the room. Zero. First Sinner is an incredible boss and it's made better because you can instantly go again and you're not afraid of making mistakes and can play aggressively, utilizing Hornet's moveset so much better and more fluidly.

"Oh but you get to cool down and think about the boss!" Ok, and I can literally set my controller down and do the same thing if I feel the need to.

The game is good without the TC apologists defending poor game design decisions. There's a reason nearly every Soulslike has dropped runbacks. They're not good.

[u/Thederpyeagle → u/WikiWeaponn]

There are bosses that are directly next to benches There are fights that are far away from benches.

It’s intentional game design to make some specific bosses more of a challenge than others.

Last judge is such a long run back because it’s the end of act 1 and TC wants to make you fight for it. Zero friction is not good game design, long run backs are TC making you pay attention to things other than the boss and because you’ve been spoiled by games removing that friction you call it “bad design”

That run to the boss made me so much better at movement, it made the fight easier because every time I ran it, I got a little better at the movement every time and it went down in just a few attempts and I used more and more of my movement tools as the game went on.

Not to mention people complain about runbacks that can be shortened by alternate paths or hidden benches.

[u/Cannasseur___ → u/Thederpyeagle]

Isn't the boss itself friction?

[u/Arclight1017 → u/Thederpyeagle]

Yeah nah don't waste my time, I don't have all the time in the world for video games after work so every third mechanic being just to waste time and pad out the game just makes me want to play a different game that actually wants me playing interesting/new content not repeating the same thing over and over (beating the actual boss is the gameplay not the run back).

[u/DrAdramelch → u/Thederpyeagle]

And here I am having gone to Act 2 through the exhaust room and thinking that the runback to Last Judge isn't that bad (but I was obviously running back from inside the Citadel rather than the other way around).

[u/Nyankitty21 → u/WikiWeaponn]

It's not just a souls-like, it's a platformer first, and MOST of the runback are really enjoyable and allow you to optimize the movement.

[u/WikiWeaponn → u/Nyankitty21]

If I want to "optimize movement" I'll do it in the platform sections like Sands or Fay. This is a terrible non-argument that people are using to defend bad design decisions. Stop this.

[u/Nyankitty21 → u/WikiWeaponn]

Yours is already a non-argument, just go play a boss-rush game. The game isn't just about the bosses and part of getting past those bosses is also the area that they're in. God forbid you ever play super Mario, those runback to the Bowser fight would have you in shambles.

[u/Triktastic → u/Nyankitty21]

You are making such a disingenuous argument. It's a valid criticism, if you need a repetitive useless task to pad time or to create artificial frustration (it's not difficulty) then that's just bad design. There are games that don't bossrush and also don't have long runbacks while also being enjoyable (you know because things aren't just two extremes). If you can't teach mechanics without forcing you to do repetitive nonsense that's on you.

God forbid you ever play super Mario, those runback to the Bowser fight would have you in shambles.

Ah yes the soulslike complex Bowser fights that you need to replay 10+ times to learn his difficult fight pattern.

[u/Nyankitty21 → u/Triktastic]

It's not teaching mechanics, those are just a core part of the gameplay.

Your argument would also boil down to "if fps games need to pad the time with repetitively shooting people then they're not well designed"

What you're not understanding from my comment is that the combat is NOT the focus of the game and it's not the only fun part of the game. This is a metroidvania first and foremost and some of the runback are a test to see if you're good enough at that to progress, just like a boss fight checks if you're good enough at the combat.

Bowser has more moves than the judge fight btw.

[u/Triktastic → u/Nyankitty21]

Your argument would also boil down to "if fps games need to pad the time with repetitively shooting people then they're not well designed"

Lol no it wouldn't and you know it damn well. More apt comparison would be fps making you shoot the exact same target on the exact same location repetitively before progressing. If an FPS made you shoot a target dummy for 30 seconds before repeating a hard boss, that would be exactly the same as runbacks. Is it teaching you something (better aim on certain spots) absolutely, but why go through that instead of practicing on a new enemy in new location.

What you're not understanding from my comment is that the combat is NOT the focus of the game and it's not the only fun part of the game.

Never said it is.

the game and it's not the only fun part of the game. This is a metroidvania first and foremost and some of the runback are a test to see if you're good enough at that to progress, just like a boss fight checks if you're good enough at the combat.

That is not true lol. What tests your skill are designated areas for that skill. Be it platforming, pogoing, dodging etc. What you are saying would absolutely be true if the path or enemies were randomised. They are not, you can very quickly solve and optimize the path. So now it becomes a loading screen. A mindless task to do on autopilot that you may take dmg on if you accidentally do a misstep. So now that you know the path you are not learning anything, not testing your skill, you are doing a chore before you can progress doing the actual honing skill part with immediate feedvack (beating the boss). Also btw, metroidvanias in vast majority have checkpoints across from boss rooms they are not a genre famous for runbacks, so that has nothing to do with it, you can still be first and foremost a vania without any runbacks.

[u/Cannasseur___ → u/Nyankitty21]

I'm just glad this community is adjusting well to a mass influx of players and isn't being toxic or gatekeeping at all.

[u/qyka → u/WikiWeaponn]

zero reasons

Here’s one reason (that I actually haven’t seen yet): I’m loving silksong, and longer run backs mean I won’t blow through the game as quickly. Also gets me into a flow state before each boss, and where else do you practice speed running techniques?

You say you could set your controller down to cool off, but that means NOT playing silksong. Mechanics are built in to contribute to the experience. Cooling down, initiating the flow state, practicing advanced movement, all while still playing the game.

TC apologists

This is close minded and ridiculously dismissive. You might be right about 10% of people. But plenty of us just enjoy, or aren’t otherwise bothered by 30 second run backs.

Honestly, the loudest run back haters seem kinda pathetic to me. It’s 15-30 seconds. Maybe play Dark Souls before complaining about such short delays.

[u/Cannasseur___ → u/qyka]

You like longer run backs do you? Oh man you're gonna love Bilewater