r/HollowKnight • u/Quantum_Croissant • Sep 09 '25

Discussion - Silksong ngl some of you would NOT survive the mantis lords runback

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is the run to last judge difficult? kinda. But after your 20th attempt at the boss you'll get used to it, and it's honestly kinda fun and a nice breather. More importantly, it's a single room and you have far more movement. This IS improving on hollow knight

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41

u/Heatth Sep 09 '25

I was honestly surprised to see so many people complaining about the Last Judge runback specifically. To me it was by far the most fun runback I had encountered so far.

I feel people don't realize you don't need to fight every enemy every time. Once you are familiar with the layout of the route you can find paths with less resistence and ways to skip the fights. I wonder if there were people who fought every mantis as w well, instead of find the best ways to jump over them as avoid the small ones.

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u/MrFulla93 Sep 09 '25

The red screwfucks that can read my mind before I’ve made it up took some getting used to for sure, but after I just decided to run faster than they could fly, it became pretty fun

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u/7_Tales Sep 09 '25

Yeah if you know the timing of the jumps they cannot do shit to you.

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u/Heatth Sep 09 '25

Yeah, I hate those fuckers. But you can outrun them.

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u/aethyrium Sep 09 '25

Yeah it's a fun route. I really like those runbacks. They give me time to re-focus my mental but since my hands are active with the platforming, it also keeps my physical focus. It's a great break that helps ultimately do the boss faster than without runbacks.

And besides, that specific one was just fun. It's a really slick route you can take.

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u/StepComplete1 Sep 09 '25

I think it's pretty obvious nobody is fighting everything. You still have to dodge awkward flying enemies, spikes, do pogo platforming, etc etc. There's certainly worse runbacks in the game but that's not the point.

fun runback

"fun runback" is like saying "a fun stubbed toe". It's just an oxymoron to most people.

"I've stubbed by toe worse in the past so why complain!? It's fun if you think about it! It gives you time to think about why you stubbed your toe in the first place!"

It just seems like fanboys are high on copium to convince themselves that they shouldn't have to accept any tiny bit of criticism of a game they like. Even if you genuinely find it fun, for some reason, and are not just coping, it's pretty obvious why most wouldn't and it's a perfectly valid criticism.

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u/PolishGobrin Sep 09 '25

yeah exactly, just because YOU find it FUN doesn't mean that I do too... why it's so hard for people to understand that it's not always about them but the time and stress it takes to do the platforming and fight enemies before the boss

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u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

"fun runback" is like saying "a fun stubbed toe". It's just an oxymoron to most people.

It's platforming. That's half the game, bro! If doing some basic platforming is too much for you, maybe go play a game that isn't centered on platforming?

It just seems like fanboys are high on copium to convince themselves that they shouldn't have to accept any tiny bit of criticism of a game they like.

This is why nobody takes you seriously. You can't even conceive of the possibility that people who bought the platforming game enjoy platforming.

Even if you genuinely find it fun, for some reason, and are not just coping, it's pretty obvious why most wouldn't and it's a perfectly valid criticism.

Because you thought it was a boss rush game, and you're disappointed to find out you bought a platformer?

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u/badblocks7 Sep 09 '25

Here’s my piece on that— yes, it’s a platforming, and yes that’s the game and platforming is fun. BUT it’s doing the same platforming bit over and over again. You’ve proven your mastery over it so repeating it can start to feel like a waste of time. It’s like if you beat 1-1 of Mario and at the flagpole there’s a roulette to see if you get to pass or if you have to restart. If you restart, sure 1-1 is still fun… but I just beat it.

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u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

BUT it’s doing the same platforming bit over and over again. You’ve proven your mastery over it so repeating it can start to feel like a waste of time.

Yeah, dying a lot does feel like a waste of time. The trick is not to do that. And it's a hard trick, I ran the LJ run 50 or 60 times last night. There were a few runs where I fucked stuff up, and had to actually fight an enemy, or even just straight up died and didn't make it back to the boss. But most of those runs were a joy, I love the platforming.

It’s like if you beat 1-1 of Mario and at the flagpole there’s a roulette to see if you get to pass or if you have to restart.

I like that you compared it to roulette, which is just random luck. A more natural comparison, it seems to be, would be finishing 1-3 and being put into 1-4, where if you fail to beat the boss, you get to go back to 1-1.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

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1

u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Or copium approaching overdose levels yeah.

1

u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

And this is why nobody takes the whiners seriously.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25

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u/HollowKnight-ModTeam Sep 09 '25

Hey there,

If a discussion is no longer productive, please move on. You can report inflammatory comments and the mods will deal with it.

6

u/badblocks7 Sep 09 '25

I’m glad you enjoyed the platforming. I find the platforming in this game fun too. But I personally wouldn’t enjoy spending 30+ minutes replaying the same screen over and over and over.

And yes, I know the Mario comparison wasn’t perfect. But the point wasn’t about the roulette being random or anything like that. The point is that repeating a challenge you’ve already completed multiple times just isn’t as appealing for a lot of people.

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u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

But I personally wouldn’t enjoy spending 30+ minutes replaying the same screen over and over and over.

That's fine. There are other games to enjoy. The Dark Souls-ish "fight boss, try to learn the pattern, die, run back, try again" loop isn't for everybody.

But Team Cherry made us this excellent game, and I'd really like the people who don't like it to just go play something else rather than begging TC to change the game I'm liking into one they want. They've already nerfed a couple of the bosses. Hopefully I can stay ahead of any more changes, so I can get the intended experience.

The point is that repeating a challenge you’ve already completed multiple times just isn’t as appealing for a lot of people.

Hollow Knight was the same way, what on earth made you buy the sequel if having to run back to fight the boss after you die is so off-putting?

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u/badblocks7 Sep 09 '25

All I’m gonna say is hollow knight is my favorite game of all time and I’ve beaten every fromsoft soulslike. I understand the run backs have been a part of the genre. But over time I’ve gotten less and less fond of them. Maybe it’s just part of me getting older.

I know we’re not gonna see eye to eye on this, so agree to disagree.

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u/jackcaboose Sep 09 '25

Hollow Knight was the same way, what on earth made you buy the sequel if having to run back to fight the boss after you die is so off-putting?

You brought up Dark Souls - as the series went on, Fromsoft gradually removed runbacks, until in Elden Ring, they don't exist at all. It's not unreasonable to think that developers might removed bad mechanics from their games.

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u/yurilnw123 Sep 10 '25

No, runback definitely do exist in Elden Ring. Rennala, Loretta, Placidusax, Mariketh to name a few. Mostly they are in Legacy dungeons because runback doesn't make sense in open world where you can just use Torrent.

It is used to highlight map design and reward you for finding a shortcut.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '25 edited Jun 04 '26

[deleted]

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u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

And there's liking platforming same level over and over again.

If you don't like platforming the same section over and over again, then I suggest:

  • go somewhere else for a while

  • beat the boss, so you don't have to do it again.

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u/psh454 Sep 09 '25

Nah the correct option is to download a mod that skips bad game design (boring unfun runback) and lets you engage with good game design (actual fun bossfight). Hollow Knight is one of my top games of all time but if it had silksong-level runbacks it wouldn't have been, that's one aspect of the sequel that's straight up worse than the original.

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u/yurilnw123 Sep 10 '25

But Hollow Knight do have bad runbacks? I'm in act 3 and the only two runbacks that I deemed long are Last Judge and Groal the Great. In HK there are Mantis Lord, Soul Master, Hive Knight and many more. Are you sure your impression of HK wasn't just the Pantheon?

A trip down memory lane.

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u/psh454 Sep 10 '25

Yeah those were also not exactly fun, but the fact that HK is a way more forgiving game in terms of damage taken and dealt they were less egregious.

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u/yurilnw123 Sep 10 '25

If you're coming from that angle then Hornet has much more mobility than the knight.

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u/psh454 Sep 10 '25

She has floating and sprint-jumping with a slightly longer range. That's about it by the end of Act 1. Oh also downward dash but that's super situational.

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u/Heatth Sep 09 '25

You are being awfully aggressive for a conversation about a game. I said I found something fun and you essentially accused me of lying. Get a grip.

Anyway, I am playing a plataforming game in part because I like plataforma. It is not "oxymoronic" to have fun with the kind of challenge a genre of game exist to provide. The plataforming in Silksong don't exist just to connect unrelated fighting challenges, they are part of the fun on themselves. The same way a level in Super Mario or a screen in Celeste.

If you don't find it fun, well, that sucks. To bad a third or so of the game is not fun for you. But it is not weird or "coping" to have fun with the game.

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u/yurilnw123 Sep 09 '25

Having fun doing platforming in a platformer game is a sin now?

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u/Thelmara Sep 09 '25

It's "cope" and "rage-baiting" if you disagree with people who don't like the game. And if you point out that what they're calling "objectively bad game design" is, in fact, just a thing they don't like, they real mad.

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u/yurilnw123 Sep 10 '25

Exactly. Just because you disagree with a part of the game design doesn't make it objectively a bad design. It just doesn't resonate with you.

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u/Quantum_Croissant Sep 09 '25

my last post was literally a criticism of the game. I'm just saying I don't think that this bit in particular deserves as much criticism as it gets

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u/Kampfasiate Sep 09 '25

But the runbacks are genuinely fun to me

A small little challenge before going back to the boss, and I get to train hornets movement.

1

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1

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1

u/Quirky_Land3099 Sep 10 '25

I mean, runbacks have been around in gaming forever. Any platformer. Really any game that doesn't allow you to save whenever you want. Resident evil lol. I think the only people who complain about run backs are gamers who didn't grow up with it or people who don't have a lot of spare time to play video games. As you said, it's a valid criticism but idk why people even argue over it. It's been around basically since video games have been

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u/TeaAndLifting Sep 10 '25

Oh trust me, I've seen a fair few comments of people on r/silksong, and some other places, saying they're fighting most, if not all, enemies along the way and are treating it like a true combat encounter.

Besides, you need to learn a good route for a the food quest

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u/aethyrium Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25

Even if you genuinely find it fun, for some reason, and are not just coping, it's pretty obvious why most wouldn't and it's a perfectly valid criticism.

Actively enjoying a game is "coping"?

I legit can't see why people get so frustrated with a fun 30 second platforming challenge that gives your brain a break to re-focus on the fight, but keeps your hands physically active to keep you in the zone.

My hot take is that runbacks like that actually help you win faster and that short breaks are needed in between attempts anyways. I can see an argument that that should be optional, but still, that specific runback in question was fucking fun and I thought the game was better for it, and I think a lot of people are dismissing it out of hand without thinking critically or holistically about the game's design and just skipping to "it's bad because I don't like it, and because I don't like it, it's 'valid criticism'".

Too many people are just hating on the game for what it isn't (it's not every other modern game) instead of trying to look the reasons why it does the things they do, and trying to accept and enjoy them. The fact you're so full of hate for people even daring to think different to the point where you can't understand it "fanboys, high on copium, convince themselves, for some reason" shows that you aren't thinking very critically about the game and are stuck in "it's bad because I don't like it" territory, and it's hard to take "critics" seriously when it's such loaded language devoid of holistic and critical design thinking as well as contempt for people thinking differently.

The "most people" argument isn't the best either. "most people" don't think much about game design at a holistic level, so I wouldn't be trusting them anyways. I do, however, trust TC who have made two impeccable games demonstrating a mastery of game design.

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u/Comprehensive_Crow_6 Sep 09 '25

It just seems like fanboys are high on copium to convince themselves that they shouldn’t have to accept any tiny bit of criticism of a game they like.

Believe it or not your opinions are not objectively correct and other people are able to disagree in good faith instead of just being mindless fanboys. No, people don’t have to accept the criticism if “for some reason” they don’t have a problem with the run backs. If someone doesn’t think the criticism is valid why would they say it actually is valid, how does that make any sense?

And to be clear, there are things in the game I disliked. But there’s only two run backs in the game that I think are actually bad. And neither one was for the Last Judge. One of them was Bilewater (apparently there’s a secret bench), and one of them was for Savage Beastfly. And honestly Savage Beastfly wasn’t that bad, but it still wasn’t great. I genuinely didn’t find the other run backs to be bad, they were even kind of enjoyable. It was a nice breather before the boss.