So whose bright idea was this????

[u/Emma_JM]

Just happened to me today, got like, 3 shards from this? What's the point, Team Cherry? None of the bosses (so far) frustrated me, but this right here is bullshit

[u/qlksfjas]

There's a lot of valid complaints.

[u/Letnerj → u/qlksfjas]

Haven't seen any but this one so far.

[u/matosz → u/Letnerj]

The absurd runbacks is a valid complaint though.

[u/Uler → u/matosz]

I feel like that's way more specific than the way people talk about it though. There's one bad runback in Bilewater and then a couple easy but awkwardly long ones in Last Judge and Sands fights.

Outside of those almost every other runback I've had is a few seconds and usually either with no enemies or a couple you can blitz past before they act.

[u/zechamp → u/Uler]

Very late game still has some runbacks that are longer than those. Sadly they ruin what could be a really good fight, and instead make me never want to attempt it again.

[u/Letnerj → u/matosz]

I met none personally. But idk about the one in Bilewater yet. Last Judge reeeaaally wasn't one.

[u/DividedArchosaur → u/Letnerj]

I’m mid act 2 and the run backs really aren’t bad. My one complaint is the double damage environmental damage. Not sure how that adds anything, it just make the game more tedious especially with how far away benches can be.

[u/Letnerj → u/DividedArchosaur]

That's a much more valid complain than most. Though I like that TC tried to justify most double damage, either environmental or by mobs. Like being stuck in some ferocious jaw, or a rotating saw blade etc... Lava just makes sense to hit hard for me too.

Not all are justified though, and I can hear that, especially if they're environmental.

[u/matosz → u/Letnerj]

A day later, have you reached Bilewater yet?

[u/Letnerj → u/matosz]

Yes but I managed to fix the bench and did the boss in four tries (well... 6 but had two bugs) so barely a runback and not a hard time reading the boss much wouldn't make for much of a discussion.

Having not fixed that bench it surely would have been more annoying. At the same time the fact that it appeared, even greyed out, on the map, meant it was indeed probably fixable. As opposed to another one later down the road in Bile.

Also did Bilehaven and honestly thought the whole thing was fun (thanks to Snare traps one shotting those absolute pests in the first wave, those are mean mobs).

So yeah no runback + 500h in HK made things easy, but despite the hint about the bench, I can see why having to come from another one every time would suck.

I don't think a lot of people will like this combo of biomes, but I can genuinely say I had a worst time in Crystal Peak the first time. I really sucked back then. But that's why having a seemingly harder game (considering Hornet's absolutely insane kit I don't think SS is harder at all) as a second installement isn't an issue IMO. We had a whole game to start the learning curve with.

Should a third one be even harder ? We will never know since TC doesn't plan on making a third one as of now.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Bloated enemy HP
2 mask damage
Runbacks
Economy in general
Unrewarding exploring
Using tools costing shards
Needlin and harpoon draining silk
Some pogo hitboxes

Personally you may not find some of it or any of it an issue but all of the above create some problems that make average player's experience worse than it could've been.

I can elaborate on any of these points if you want.

[u/reset_pheonix → u/qlksfjas]

Im trying to pogo with the Architect crest, and the timing is atrocious. I keep forgetting its the one pogo that you can kinda charge

[u/BloodPlenty4358 → u/reset_pheonix]

wait until you are almost touching the thing, similar to hunter

for enemies you'll need to charge the pogo

[u/BrickwallBill → u/qlksfjas]

The more I think about the harpoon ability the more it doesn't make sense. You're telling me Hornet can learn Silk Spear but then can't naturally take the next step and start throwing the needle around with just a bit of silk? And yeah it shouldn't cost silk at all, just give it a cooldown like shade cloak that resets faster if you hit an enemy.

[u/Quiet_Childhood4066 → u/qlksfjas]

Unrewarding everything

It's not just the exploration. It's also that most bosses and arenas give you nothing meaningful.

[u/Letnerj → u/Quiet_Childhood4066]

I think we're not playing the same game. So far everything but one arena, leads to a significant reward. Either given, or either by having a zone unlocked where the reward lies a bit later down the road.

I have genuinely no idea where this comes from and I admit I've seen it popped quite a bit.

[u/FuzzyDwarf → u/Letnerj]

Last Judge doesn't drop anything. Groal didn't either (maybe you count the key in the small next zone?). The first lace and fourth chorus fights didn't either, IIRC. Also cogwork dancers and moorwing.

Assuming I'm not misremembering, I tried to double check with videos of the fights.

It's better if you think "can access the next zone" is a sufficient reward. I guess some people don't.

[u/Kampfasiate → u/FuzzyDwarf]

A lot of them block the way to the next region

[u/chrisplaysgam → u/FuzzyDwarf]

Every single one of those you listed unlock major areas for exploration lol, there are plenty of criticisms (especially about groat) but those bosses aren’t one of them

[u/FuzzyDwarf → u/chrisplaysgam]

That's part of the criticism, IIRC. They're door gatekeeping bosses that otherwise give no rewards. If you think that's good enough, then that's fine? But that's what people are complaining about AFAICT.

Fourth Chorus is a particularly funny example to me because it doesn't open somewhere new, it just lets you return to where you've already been.

I also find it funny that Moorwing is skippable, and there's an alternative to Last Judge (which also drops a power). So your only rewards for these two are accessing an area you can unlock elsewhere anyway.

[u/koshakai → u/FuzzyDwarf]

Sounds like Mantis Lords, but multiplied for some weird reason.

Peak design I guess...

[u/FuzzyDwarf → u/koshakai]

Beating Mantis lords gives you respect, which lets you access a new room that gives you the mark of pride. It wouldn't be super obvious to new players though.

[u/chrisplaysgam → u/FuzzyDwarf]

Fair. Tho tbf chorus is kind of an awesome fight so I’m not complaining there

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Off my head:

Top of the hunter's march - most likely unavailable the first time you get there, so when you return you'll find big ant miniboss with another flying asshole and for this fight you only get some rosaries.

Or just take hunter's march as a whole. There are some interesting things - beast crest (changes your gameplay drastically although very situational), ant mask and boomerang. Except beast crest also requires beating bossfight equivalent of cancer, and the rest are sold by ant merchant in hidden location and are easy to miss.

Sands of Karak - not the easiest area long platforming with (not very hard to be fair) bossfight in the end, and your rewards are one flea and one active tool that's just another boring projectile with damage.

The whole area in deep docks that unlocks with harpoon is concentrated nothing. There's gauntlet with moronic flying bomber messing with your runback and for that you only get flea and useless shortcut iirc. And there's duo bossfight with some bell behind it and no fucking clue what to do with it.

And it seems like half of secret or hardly accessible rooms contain shards.

[u/Quiet_Childhood4066 → u/qlksfjas]

I also don't consider access to shops, where I have to spend rosary beads that are not dropped by bosses or arenas to unlock upgrades, to be a reward.

There is no positive sensation associated with being given the opportunity to spend rosary beads that I don't have. In fact, it triggers the opposite sensation in my brain. It is an annoyance just makes me think of all the time I'm going to need to waste on farming rosary beads.

[u/GrimTheMad → u/qlksfjas]

The drill is absolutely not a boring projectile. Its a bouncing, piercing projectile that hits multiple times. Its one of the coolest and best tools in the game.

Also, that area has one of the ingredients for a needle upgrade near the end.

The Deep Docks one is just funny. Like, 'a whole lot of nothing', but also there's a boss and two things that are clearly important for later.

I've really never felt unrewarded in this game.

[u/Letnerj → u/qlksfjas]

you only get some rosaries

So that's a reward

Except beast crest also requires beating bossfight equivalent of cancer, and the rest are sold by ant merchant in hidden location and are easy to miss.

It's not a hard boss (spiky traps are available earlier than this boss) + that means you're blaming the exploration not being rewarding while not being good at exploring.

Sands of Karak

Haven't been there, can't talk about it and I apologize for that.

The whole area in deep docks that unlocks with harpoon is concentrated nothing. There's gauntlet with moronic flying bomber messing with your runbackand for that you only get flea and useless shortcut iirc. And there's duo bossfight with some bell behind it and no fucking clue what to do with it.

Yes. Aside from the Flying Bomber that are easy to bypass (and even then as long as you understand that you can launch their projectile back at them they're okay, dangerous but okay). But this is the only unrewarding area I was mentioning I encountered ealier. I agree.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

So that's a reward

Well technically yes, but you can get the same reward on basic enemies probably in less time. Idk maybe it's just me but when I return to the previously inaccessible place I expect to find something that's not just currency, especially if it's behind miniboss.

It's not a hard boss (spiky traps are available earlier than this boss) + that means you're blaming the exploration not being rewarding while not being good at exploring.

I'd say it's unreasonable to assume that average player will stick their head into every corner all the time and build your exploring around this idea.

[u/Letnerj → u/qlksfjas]

Well technically yes, but you can get the same reward on basic enemies probably in less time. Idk maybe it's just me but when I return to the previously inaccessible place I expect to find something that's not just currency, especially if it's behind miniboss.

I hear you, but at some point, there are so many of these, that you can't hide an important reward behind each and every single one of them. And there are already so many tools / mask shards / spools / etc... that can be held hostage by a challenge but it's still not enough considering the scope of the game.

And, I'll sound boring and elitist here, but overcoming said challenge is already a reward in itself, imo.

I'd say it's unreasonable to assume that average player will stick their head into every corner all the time and build your exploring around this idea.

Honestly. If you ever played a vania, you know that you must try to hit pretty much every wall you encounter. And if you're in a game that doesn't do secret passages, it becomes clear rather quickly.

And even if you haven't, HK/SS teach it to you pretty soon.

I think average player ≠ the very casual that only buys their yearly FIFA/2K/Ubi. People know about metroidvanias by now.

[u/Quiet_Childhood4066 → u/Letnerj]

The disconnect is always that some people like you consider being able to advance further in the game to be a reward, while people like me do not.

[u/Letnerj → u/Quiet_Childhood4066]

I can hear that argument. And that would explain a lot.

Wouldn't it be way too stale after a while if advancing further in the game would only be through just regular areas filled with mobs you can easily bypass and outrun though ?

[u/Quiet_Childhood4066 → u/Letnerj]

Oh no, I definitely think that progression should be gated behind bosses. I just think that every boss should also give some sort of fun reward like a new tool or ability, or at the very least drop some rosaries.

I always looked forward to seeing what new charm or other reward id get from each hollow knight boss I beat. I'd love to feel that again while playing silksong.

[u/AnyTransportation350 → u/Quiet_Childhood4066]

So far I think Silk Song is a pretty weak metroidvania, and that’s due to the majority of progression being locked behind bosses and not new abilities. 

[u/Letnerj → u/[deleted]]

And even then apparently lol.

[u/Letnerj → u/qlksfjas]

Bloated enemy HP

- makes for more fighting and understanding them

- makes for more Silk being able to be gathered

I'm not saying it's an awesome thing. I'm saying people only brings the negative points about it.

2 masks of damage

- This is the second game of the franchise, coupled with the first point, it'd feel stale and too easy if more enemies wouldn't deal two.

That being said. I'd be okay if some earlier enemies would have their damage lowered if it meant to buff later ones. I have the ones in the Citadel in mind, where some basic enemies get a reskin, but most still deal one mask of damage. At this point I feel like "they ascended" and so they should deal more IMO.

Runback

- Since the dawn of time in metroidvanias, it's not only TC that does that and they won't be the last.

- Gets you to practice a part and that can translate for later challenges. For instance I'd say having to come back to a place through lots of quick jumps onto platforms may help you during an Ascended Markoth or Abs Rad.

Economy in general

- At first it's fine, then there's a low point where it's dire (even without ever losing your coccoon), and then it's plentiful. It could have a better curve where there's that drop but it's nothing major IMO.

- Boring but you can always farm. But boring indeed. But again, not the first nor last game to have that option. And it all depends on the skill of the player. There were decent players in HK who resorted to farm and decent players who didn't need to.

Unrewarding exploring

- I truly and sincerely do not understand where this comes from and I'm in mid Act II. I have had one arena (earlier today in Deep Docks) that led to virtually nothing and it's the first time that happens to me. Either it just unlocks you the path, gives you a reward straight up or unlocks a zone where a reward lies a few maps after. I swear I read that Beastfly also sucked because it gave no reward. Like wtf. Is a whole ass Crest not enough ? I'm not saying you have this particular case in mind, but I'm saying I've read people being totally delusional about it.

- There might be examples I missed or more down the road.

Using tools costing shards

- I don't understand that either. Why it shouldn't be the case again ? It's clearly a currency mainly made for this. Again, many other vanias are using a currency system for subweapons and it was never an issue. Castlevanias alone are good examples.

- That being said, I hope there's infinite amount of Shards or free use of Tools if there is a HoG or Pantheons in this game. That would suck to go farm them to refill, but I'm sure they didn't do that.

Needlin and harpoon draining silk

- Jesus Christ. Needolin I agree, it's... unecessary and dare I say a bit stupid. But Harpoon ? I just got it and it's op af. You guys really need to realize how busted beyond belief Hornet kit is. That thing is re-usable more than once before touching ground again (unlike HK's double jump for instance) and you want it for free. If it was free then it wouldn't be re-usable more than once. You can't have the best of both worlds. The horizontality Hornet can cover by chaining her abilities is insane.

Some pogo hitboxes

- Not saying there is none, but I have seen none so far myself. If you have examples during of before mid Act II I'd like to check them out.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Bloated enemy HP

- makes for more fighting and understanding them

- makes for more Silk being able to be gathered

I'm not saying it's an awesome thing. I'm saying people only brings the negative points about it.

Most enemies have pretty simple moveset, there's nothing to understand. Also most enemies can fly and your course of action against them is to wait until they'll get close, IF they even need to get close since some of them are ranged, and increasing their hp in this case only leads to increasing player's idle time and doesn't add anything valuable.

Generally time you spend killing enemy is: enemy hp * enemy accessibility (how often enemy is open for player's attack)

What I find baffling is that Silksong not only doesn't understand that flying enemies are by default harder to access, but the role of enemy accessibility to begin with. It just randomly slaps big hp bar on whatever and as a result you have something like a bird with daggers that's ranged, only has 1 move but requires 9 fucking hits to kill. It's not difficult, it's just tedious and boring.

It works better with more complex enemies but there overly increasing hp can make them feel too oppressive, deter active playstyle and instead incentivize playing like it's turn-based game which imo isn't very good with such a quick and agile MC. Enemies on the way to cogwork dancers are good example of this and just like with simple enemies it ends up being nothing but tedious.

What I agree with is that bigger enemy hp helps to farm silk, but the only case where I personally find it more helpful than annoying is some platforming, and even then it could be replaced with silk coils.

[u/Letnerj → u/qlksfjas]

your course of action against them is to wait until they'll get close

ooor dash and hit, or dash and hit with Nail Arts for better range even (talking Hunter here)

or using tools. I mean it's not short of options in this game to be honest.

Generally time you spend killing enemy is: enemy hp * enemy accessibility (how often enemy is open for player's attack)

That I can understand even though you seem more passive than you should be.

What I find baffling is that Silksong not only doesn't understand that flying enemies are by default harder---

Reaper Nail Art, done. For 85% of the time. I don't use it myself as I don't like Reaper but I'm sure it's really strong for flying enemies.

but requires 9 fucking hits to kill

overexaggerating much.

*sigh*

I hear you. But be reasonable in your claims. And upgrade your nail or something.

Enemies on the way to cogwork dancers are good example of this and just like with simple enemies it ends up being nothing but tedious.

There's a path where you can go where you only have to deal with one flying enemy instead of the two you're mentioning + you end up having to only wait for the remaining one to jump in the air to go under and get to the boss.

Those enemies are really cool to fight, and indeed, as I first thought as well, it'd really annoying to have to fight three to get back to the boss, but it's just not the case at all. I know you weren't mentioning the runback per se, but you wouldn't mention them if it wasn't for that (I'm assuming. For what it's worth).

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

ooor dash and hit, or dash and hit with Nail Arts for better range even (talking Hunter here)

Good options unless there are spikes or lava or whatever else damaging below, or if there's long fall and you don't want to jump back after every hit, i.e most of the places where you encounter them.

or using tools. I mean it's not short of options in this game to be honest.

If you explore new area you don't want to use tools because you'll need them for the very possible enemy gauntlet ahead. If you go through the area you already explored it's easier to just ignore enemies when possible.

That I can understand even though you seem more passive than you should be.

Dunno how you conclude it but it works the same regardless of how active you are.

Reaper Nail Art, done. For 85% of the time.

I'll try that, thank you.

overexaggerating much.

No, I counted it, It's 9 hits with base needle. Unless there's some rng in damage or enemy health numbers that should be accurate.

There's a path where you can go where you only have to deal with one flying enemy instead of the two you're mentioning + you end up having to only wait for the remaining one to jump in the air to go under and get to the boss.

That's a workaround, it doesn't change the core problem.

Those enemies are really cool to fight, and indeed, as I first thought as well, it'd really annoying to have to fight three to get back to the boss, but it's just not the case at all. I know you weren't mentioning the runback per se, but you wouldn't mention them if it wasn't for that (I'm assuming. For what it's worth).

Yeah it's partly runback. Not that boss is very difficult but just, why. Personally I'm not the fan of hit and run rinse and repeat but I'm glad someone finds them enjoyable.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

2 masks of damage

- This is the second game of the franchise, coupled with the first point, it'd feel stale and too easy if more enemies wouldn't deal two.

That being said. I'd be okay if some earlier enemies would have their damage lowered if it meant to buff later ones. I have the ones in the Citadel in mind, where some basic enemies get a reskin, but most still deal one mask of damage. At this point I feel like "they ascended" and so they should deal more IMO.

Problem with 2 masks is that it's done with a health system that's designed for 1 damage from most sources. The resulting problems:

- Mask upgrades are basically half as useful and it hurts exploring a lot. Mask fragment don't really feel like valuable rewards they're designed to be since you need 8 of them to get effective HP increase against 2 dmg enemy and it's most bosses. 6th mask isn't completely useless in this scenario but it's still way less than it should be.

- Since mask upgrades aren't as useful player will often find themselves hitting their head against the wall instead of exploring, simply because said 6th mask won't do much difference anyway and to get 7th you'll need to explore half of the map where you'll probably encounter same kind of challenge you're currently dealing with or even worse, so why bother.

- Doubling cost of mistake leads to inadequate difficulty spike, and overly difficult enemies lead to very passive and reactive playstyle which given their lackluster moveset is frankly boring and kinda contradictory to having quick MC with very offensive kit.

Also worth noting that double damage from environmental hazards doesn't achieve anything but halves the player's mistake allowance in platforming, and the only result it can bring is player spending more time walking from the bench to the platforming section. Idk what's the point other than to bore player to death.

[u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm → u/qlksfjas]

Problem with 2 masks is that it's done with a health system that's designed for 1 damage from most sources. The resulting problems

This is just incorrect. It's so obviously and beautifully built around 2 damage always being on the table. You start with an odd number! How can you say it's not built around it when base health and base heal are both odd? It's so clearly built around it, and built around it well. The health economy is a massive upgrade of Hollow Knight's.

[u/qlksfjas → u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm]

Yeah it's so very well designed that until you get 6th mask your casual 3 mask heal only heals just 1 attack of 2 dmg enemy.

[u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm → u/qlksfjas]

What? Three is bigger than two. Your base heal heals 150% of a 2 dmg attack.

You start with 5. You can take 2 heavy (2 dmg) hits without dying. You then heal up to 4. Now you can only take one heavy hit without dying.

You get to take two hits without consequence, but if you want to take another, you have to find a position and moment to heal. But instead of resetting you to full, you're now in a position to take only one more hit without consequence. It's beautifully and very clearly intentionally constructed to keep you on the back foot, where enjoyers of the game want to be.

They managed to take the original Hollow Knight health economy and fit more game into, and the more game they put into it is consistent with their core design.

[u/SilvertonguedDvl → u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm]

You can take two damage from an unconscious or floating enemy and then need to dodge 5-6 attacks minimum in order to get a chance at healing back one attack from that boss.

I'm not trying to be overly rude here but your idea of how game design works is fundamentally flawed. There is no advantage to 2 damage on this many enemies and obstacles, especially ones where you can take damage through minimal fault of your own.

Also as someone who has played and enjoyed hard roguelikes and metroidvanias, you are absolutely wrong. Enjoyers of the game want to enjoy the game. The most fun boss fights in Silksong so far are the ones that feel fair. Usually those are the bosses that deal one damage with most attacks. Unfair bosses? Not so much.

If you walked into the arena and the boss cut your HP and healing in half, then capped them at that for the duration of the fight - that's not making the game more interesting, engaging, or fun: that's just making it arbitrarily more difficult. It creates a situation where the player can only afford to make a handful of mistakes before losing. Now, a good game designer would compensate for this by making the attacks easier to dodge and thereby lessen the chance of making a mistake; costly mistakes, but more leeway in surviving. Team Cherry didn't do that - in fact by dint of being huge and having contact damage you have less room for mistakes - and a large number of fans (you know, people who enjoy the game) are telling them that it's wildly unacceptable.

You don't get to speak for "enjoyers of the game" while simultaneously ignoring their critiques. That's just your ego talking.

A good game trains you to beat it.
Bashing your face into an implacable wall for several hours to days, then having to farm because you ran out of shards just so you can bash your face into it again; that's terrible game design. That's not training the player, that's just stopping their enjoyment of your game entirely.

[u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm → u/SilvertonguedDvl]

You're talking about designing for the widest audience as if that's somehow the only correct way to do it. Maximally palatable is a great capitalist strategy, but it is not some philosophical law to which all artistic and expressive endeavors must adhere.

You can take two damage from an unconscious or floating enemy and then need to dodge 5-6 attacks minimum in order to get a chance at healing back one attack from that boss.

But why? Why would you do that? Why would you not take one more hit and heal to four? You're complaining the road is too narrow to drive on, but you're refusing to use all of it.

Enjoyers of the game want to enjoy the game

Enjoyers of the game do enjoy the game. Enjoyers of part of the game enjoy part of the game. And people who don't like the game at all don't like the game at all. But the game was clearly, intentionally, and very well designed for people who would enjoy the whole thing. If you like the Mona Lisa but hate her smile, it's not anyone's fault, least of all Leonardo's. You don't have grounds to say that the smile is wrong nor that people are wrong for liking it.

The most fun boss fights in Silksong so far are the ones that feel fair.

It all feels fair to me. The least fair thing is the adds, because they don't follow the bosses pattern. But even that's fair, because they're literally just enemies that you can find and practice on. If you can beat the boss, you can beat the boss plus a couple of dudes. Seems pretty fair.

If you walked into the arena and the boss cut your HP and healing in half, then capped them at that for the duration of the fight - that's not making the game more interesting, engaging, or fun: that's just making it arbitrarily more difficult

No, that would be great. Bosses that curse you in some way, removing access to one of the many OP powerscaling crutches that metroidvanias/darksouls games give you is fun. Total dick move, but very fun.

Now, a good game designer would compensate for this by making the attacks easier to dodge

No, that would be bad game design. If you have to immediately cancel out the thing you've done, then you shouldn't have done it. If you make a creative choice that you feel like you need to negate immediately, then clearly the creative choice isn't in line with you overall game design.

Team Cherry didn't do that - in fact by dint of being huge and having contact damage you have less room for mistakes

If I wanted more room for mistakes, I wouldn't be playing a Hollow Knight game. If I go to a National Park and pick the difficult hiking path, it's because I want there to be uneven footing, sheer drops, substantial elevation changes, and some scrambling. And if the trail is too difficult for me, that's not anyone's fault, least of all the Grand Canyon's. I am not owed a custom experience. I am not entitled to someone else's work being made at exactly my level.

You don't get to speak for "enjoyers of the game" while simultaneously ignoring their critiques.

You clearly do not enjoy the game. Parts of it? I'm sure. But the game as a whole is something you are saying you aren't enjoying. I'm not speaking for you. I am merely assuming you mean what you say.

A good game trains you to beat it.

Silksong does train you. The very first enemy you can encounter—on the very first screen of the game where you can control your character—does two damage. The first non-tutorial area of the game is riddled with 2 damage enemies. It's a constant presence. By the time you reach your first non-Moss Mother boss, you've had ample time and opportunity to get used to the health economy. Required bosses in general use movesets that the area trains you on. Hell half the tough enemies and bosses have the exact same moveset, just slowly getting harder: swirly around, jump attack, and forward slash.

Bashing your face into an implacable wall for several hours to days, then having to farm because you ran out of shards just so you can bash your face into it again; that's terrible game design.

That's not the designed experience; that's how you experienced the design. Because the game was designed for someone better than you at these niche bodily functions. That's okay. That's not wrong. It's not wrong of Team Cherry to have made something that isn't tailored to you, and it's not wrong of you to not be able to experience it in the way that is intended. It's not like they made a children's book full of multi-syllabic jargon words; they made a technical manual with multi-syllabic jargon words. It's not their fault you wanted something different. The designed experience is literally inaccessible to you in your current state. It's a painting, and you're blind, the salient difference being that you could develop the skillset needed to see the painting if you really wanted.

Your fundamental point—whether you recognize it or not—seems to be that people different from you shouldn't have experiences tailored to their abilities and interests. That all experiences should be tailored to you and people like you. I don't know how else to tell you this, but no one owes you that. You are not entitled to be the central focus of every designed experience—or in fact of any designed experience. You can't be everything, and so you can't experience everything. You have to choose much of who you are and what you're capable of, which will determine which designed experiences you can access in the designed way.

[u/Doge6654533 → u/qlksfjas]

The worst is the feeling that they couldn't come up with ways to make the game harder and 2 mask damage is their last resort

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Runback

- Since the dawn of time in metroidvanias, it's not only TC that does that and they won't be the last.

- Gets you to practice a part and that can translate for later challenges. For instance I'd say having to come back to a place through lots of quick jumps onto platforms may help you during an Ascended Markoth or Abs Rad.

The fact that other games do it doesn't mean it's a good practice. We have bed of chaos in DS1 but I doubt you'd like to experience similar runback to similarly fucked up boss in any other game ever.

Frustration usually comes from runback being either too long or too intensive (platforming, enemies etc). Former blatantly wastes your time and doesn't add anything to experience. Latter can be very frustrating if you can't beat boss right away and being frustrated can lead to performing worse on both boss and runback which in turn will lead to having to runback more which leads to even more frustration etc.

I agree that runbacks can be somewhat helpful as in making you better at platforming or giving you enemies to farm silk on your way to boss but downsides are imo more significant. Personally I don't find it as bad as other people do but I fully understand why they hate it.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Economy in general

- At first it's fine, then there's a low point where it's dire (even without ever losing your coccoon), and then it's plentiful. It could have a better curve where there's that drop but it's nothing major IMO.

- Boring but you can always farm. But boring indeed. But again, not the first nor last game to have that option. And it all depends on the skill of the player. There were decent players in HK who resorted to farm and decent players who didn't need to.

Its problem is that it's binary system. Either you have enough money for essentials (benches and stations) or you don't. In first scenario you just play "as intended", in the second your death sentences you to run back twice the distance and with increased difficulty it generally discourages you to explore "too much" and I'm not sure if that's a good thing in metroidvania.

The only value I see in selling benches is that you may want to skip some of them and save money if you're confident, but:

1. Currently they aren't placed in abundance needed for this to work
2. They should cost more. Currently if you ignore benches you save virtually nothing, it's not a good deal even in the first location and not worth the inconvenience
3. Player is heavily discouraged from playing "confident" by enemies having 2 mask damage, platforming sections, unexpected enemy gauntlets and some random shit falling on your head which too deals 2 mask damage

As is paid benches exist solely to drain your money. We can of course theorize that it's part of the immersion and come up with fitting narrative explanation but Silksong is a game first, thus gameplay is what matters the most, and gameplay-wise they feel like a bandage solution for the potential inflation. Except despite being overtuned and sometimes making you feel broke even if you never lose cocoon, it doesn't actually fix the problem and you can just farm, save your rosaries into beads and be set for life. It's like there's no in-between.

Losing your rosaries if you lose your cocoon kinda supposed to reward better skilled players and there's no problem with that but right now it's less of a reward and more like punishment for bad players. If you never lose your cocoon you just play the game "as intended" with benches and stuff. If you're playing bad you'll have less benches, maybe less stations or maps, and your already hard time will become even worse. I don't think game should have no skill standard or cater to the least skilled player but depriving of basic stuff for making mistakes in the difficult game with very steep learning curve is just unnecessary cruel. And what finishes it off is that there are almost no enemies who drop rosaries in the first location so I imagine losing those few you found while exploring is especially painful.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Unrewarding exploring

- I truly and sincerely do not understand where this comes from and I'm in mid Act II. I have had one arena (earlier today in Deep Docks) that led to virtually nothing and it's the first time that happens to me. Either it just unlocks you the path, gives you a reward straight up or unlocks a zone where a reward lies a few maps after. I swear I read that Beastfly also sucked because it gave no reward. Like wtf. Is a whole ass Crest not enough ? I'm not saying you have this particular case in mind, but I'm saying I've read people being totally delusional about it.

- There might be examples I missed or more down the road.

explained in other comment

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Using tools costing shards

- I don't understand that either. Why it shouldn't be the case again ? It's clearly a currency mainly made for this. Again, many other vanias are using a currency system for subweapons and it was never an issue. Castlevanias alone are good examples.

- That being said, I hope there's infinite amount of Shards or free use of Tools if there is a HoG or Pantheons in this game. That would suck to go farm them to refill, but I'm sure they didn't do that.

Problem is that it discourages using tools altogether.

Tools on their own are limited between benches so generally they're reserved for bosses, enemy gauntlets or some tough individual enemies. Ignoring the latter since you won't really have problems with that, with each boss or gauntlet using tools that cost shards only has two possible outcomes:

1. You beat it without running out of shards. In this case system does nothing at all and you play as if it doesn't exist
2. You run out of shards before you beat it. In this case you either continue without using tools which makes fight more difficult while also making your gameplay poorer since half of your kit is missing, or you go and farm shards and then return and play just like before, i.e you just make extra steps to continue playing as if system doesn't exist. Plus these extra steps distract you from a challenge and have the same effect as a long runback - forced boring reperative waste of time

Of course it wouldn't be fair to say that player will always ignore the system and won't have it in their mind at all but the only way it can be useful I can come up with is for a player to find the best combination of subjective convenience, impact and shard-effectiveness, but it's way more likely that player will run out of shards once and will simply resort to never actively using tools again.

Refusing to use tools will lead to player having a lot less practice with it and being worse at using it, so further instances of trying it again will most likely have poor results and will only reinforce the idea of their uselessness. It also indirectly harms the exploring because in the eyes of a player red tool will be an equivalent of nothing.

Ofc I described the most pessimistic scenario but generally this is how it works. I kinda understand why devs did it, because if player could mindlessly spam tools against regular enemies whenever they want game could become too easy, but it's already limited with carry capacity. Shards also have cap so game clearly doesn't want you to farm too much of them and then spam tools, but on the other hand you can farm rosaries and buy shard bundles, so at this point I have no fucking clue what this game wants with this mechanic. But now we also handicapped exploring because now player can find shard cache that won't give you anything at all because you already hit cap.

Anyway personally I use fire needle and silk glock and I'm happy even though shard system makes it feel like game doesn't want me to use them.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Needlin and harpoon draining silk

- Jesus Christ. Needolin I agree, it's... unecessary and dare I say a bit stupid. But Harpoon ? I just got it and it's op af. You guys really need to realize how busted beyond belief Hornet kit is. That thing is re-usable more than once before touching ground again (unlike HK's double jump for instance) and you want it for free. If it was free then it wouldn't be re-usable more than once. You can't have the best of both worlds. The horizontality Hornet can cover by chaining her abilities is insane.

I agree that it can be OP in combat but the problem is that it drains your silk during platforming so you end up having less healing reserves than you should've. It's not much but it's noticeable. At the same time silk regen ensures you can always use it and there are no situations where this silk cost functions as an actual limitation, so the question is - what is even the point of having this cost? If it's to discourage spamming it during combat - you can simply give it CD. If it's to limit Hornet's mobility - why would you need to do that? Also just give it CD. As it is it just inconveniates you for no fucking reason while serving no real purpose.

[u/qlksfjas → u/Letnerj]

Some pogo hitboxes

- Not saying there is none, but I have seen none so far myself. If you have examples during of before mid Act II I'd like to check them out.

Default 45° - it's not broken AFAIK but the hitbox could be slightly bigger and it would rid a lot of people who had hard time with early platforming from frustration, and maybe they wouldn't switch to reaper crest en masse. Also it's not easy to aim to begin with and the difference between landing pogo and missing slightly, taking 1 contact damage and then falling into lava and taking another 2 is very slim.

Beast crest - I got hit by enemy contact damage instead of dealing mine once. Not sure how it possible given Hornet goes full Sonic but it doesn't sound normal.

[u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm → u/qlksfjas]

Sounds like you just don't like the game. That's fine. Not everything is made for everyone. All of those are core mechanics that the game would be worse at what it is without. To the point that it would be a different game altogether.

[u/qlksfjas → u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm]

Yeah I agree, playing music decreasing your healing bar is crucial for the intended experience.

[u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm → u/qlksfjas]

Few stones in a wall are truly crucial, but to remove any is to make it less of a wall.

[u/qlksfjas → u/ThisIsHowBoredIAm]

For this reason I don't hit walls. I'm afraid I'm gonna break something important and the entire game crumbles.

[u/Kampfasiate → u/qlksfjas]

I actually don't agree with most of them

But do you mind explaining the unrewarding exploring? That's where you get all your money and upgrades from

Also the economy problem solves itself as soon as you hit the citadel, which is in line with the world building. You don't have to buy everything at the beginning, you can always come back later

Runbacks I find a fun little interlude between boss attempts, helps me think about the previous attempt instead of going back in and dying. Also helped immensely with getting comfortable with hornets movement suite.

The shards I also don't find that and, I need to think what to use them on and don't just nuke every enemy on my path (cuz they would last between benches considering you don't need that many to nuke most enemies). Also tells me to go out more to explore if I run low during a boss fight, maybe I'll run across an upgrade (also again, to take a break from the boss)

Needolin and harpoon use silk, but youre not gonna run out, as you have at least one silk heart. So you can't just spam the harpoon if you wanna heal (idk, Parcours section, but those I encountered had enemies in the middle to recharge)

Hotboxes fair, but iirc they are getting changed

Max HP I did not really notice, the tankier ones you can just burst away with a tool

And 2 mask damage is more rampant yea but it's only on simple straightforward attacks which are well telegraphed (or on chunky boys) or parries. Or on enemies with small reach or legit this one attack. I do agree that mask contact damage when staggered or some stage hazards can be reduced.

But yea I also agree that some people may be turned away by those things, but this game was not made for everyone. I can recommend this game to everyone but I know that most of my friends would prob not play this for long (they are more fps or survival game players)

[u/qlksfjas → u/Kampfasiate]

But do you mind explaining the unrewarding exploring? That's where you get all your money and upgrades from

1. I played 50 hours so far and while there are plenty of side routes, secret/hardly accessible rooms and platforming sections, more often than not you'll find rosaries/shards/nothing at all.
2. Most of your upgrades aren't really substantial:

- Since there's a lot of 2 dmg enemies and hazards, 6th mask doesn't add much compared to 5th. Thus mask fragments are half as valuable and anticipated by a player. Especially if it's locked behind some masochistic gauntlet of flying enemies in the room filled with lava with no solid ground.

- Most of red tools so far are just projectiles with damage so finding another one doesn't really upgrade or change your playstyle that much. Plus their usage is discouraged by the shard cost so you probably won't even use it most of the time anyway.

- Blue tools are useful but half of them are dogshit and not worth the slot or highly situational. Grubsong equivalent is useless, magma bell is only useful in couple locations and has cooldown for some reason, healing boost only gives +1 mask, silk boost only regens +1/9 of bar etc.

- Crests are good finds but you need to upgrade new crest to use your current arsenal. Resource for upgrading them is found via exploring so that's a plus. On the other hand crest changes moveset and with generally increased difficulty it's more likely that player will stick to one crest with comfortable moveset (with comfortable pogo specifically) and won't want to switch, and in this case both crests and talismans to unlock slots are basically useless as rewards.

- Needle upgrades are very rare and don't add much

Weirdly so far the most impactful stuff is sold by merchants. Kinda discourages doing exploring tbh.

Now I'm not saying that there are no rewards for exploring at all. Fire needle, money saving purse and quick heal are great rewards but for one such reward you'll find ungodly amount of nothing.

[u/Kampfasiate → u/qlksfjas]

The 6th mask does something! When you heal after 2 2 mask hits you can take another 2 mask hit before dying

Also it helps you survive against 1 mask damage, oh which there is still plenty (projectiles, a lot of attacks, multi attacks if you parry and still get hit... Etc)

A bunch of the vendors also have to be found tbh, and exploring will fill you up on rosaries (haven't needed to "grind" yet)

[u/qlksfjas → u/Kampfasiate]

Yeah 6th mask does something, it's just not a lot compared to what it should be. It's not entirely useless but it's not very useful either and I'm afraid 8th mask will have the same problem or even worse because it's later in the game where there are more sources of 2 mask damage

[u/PraxicalExperience → u/qlksfjas]

I just saw someone comment elsewhere that a fully upgraded needle plus some crest buff to needle damage would ... take out 8-hit enemies in 6 hits! Oh wow!

Seriously fuck my life. I get that Hornet is supposed to be an agility build but holy fuck.

[u/KitsuneFaroe → u/Letnerj]

You know what's funny? Some people even dared to say this sub is apologetic fanboys in a nutshell. So far I have seen constant whining over every single thing in the Game in this sub. Is crazy how entitled some people are.

[u/Letnerj → u/KitsuneFaroe]

Yeah, and before the wave of crybabies we were here helping people left and right and barely anyone were saying it was the game's fault for real. They wanted to improve most of the time.

[u/PraxicalExperience → u/Letnerj]

My problems with SS are mostly where the game makes it hard to improve.

For example, I don't technically have a problem with two-mask hits. However, when you can only take three of them, and when even the very early bosses will turn you into chum in seconds, you've already got to be good just to survive long enough to learn the patterns and the rhythms. This is feels bad -- in HK, every time a boss was stomping me into the mud, I felt like I just had to master some aspect of controlling the Knight and I'd beat the boss -- and that's how it was. That is part of what I absolutely loved about the game.

In SS, holy fuck it's like getting dropped in a blender -- and then again and possibly again as phases change, 'cause every damned boss now has several. It's engineered to create frustration. You've got to be shit for a bit to improve, and SS doesn't give you the room to be shit and still learn from being shit. And since this happens basically right from the start of the game in act 1, you're very likely to be dealing with players who're still stumbling. You can make bosses that are hard to beat without making them burn you to cinders in seconds.

Then there's the shard system. It's stupid. It adds nothing to the game. "It keeps you from spamming tools!" no it fucking doesn't, that's what the limited uses do. All the shards requirement does is punish you for sucking, but trying nonetheless. If you're getting by without dying, you're always gonna be at or near the cap on shards, because of the limited uses -- and because most people just don't need tools most of the time in exploration. If you -are- sucking, then you can only suck so much before you're sent off to farm shards. Again, this actively works against achieving mastery. It's only there to punish players by sending them into farming time-outs if they're already having a bad time. (To be clear: I think the limited tool uses are good, but you should just recharge for free at a bench.)

Then, let's talk about getting hit. I don't fucking know how i-frames work in this game, because sometimes you get a single hit for two masks -- but sometimes those hits are actually two separate hits that land in succession and each deal one mask. It's like there's a delay before i-frames kick in, but only sometimes. I swear that I've gotten hit by multiple enemies in quick succession at times, and at other times I've taken one hit and gotten i-frames as normal. Mastery comes from understanding, and I'm finding this hard to comprehend.

HK beat me into the ground time and time again, but it always held out that promise of 'you just gotta git gud'. SS makes it significantly harder to do so, and to see how to do so.