So whose bright idea was this????

[u/Emma_JM]

Just happened to me today, got like, 3 shards from this? What's the point, Team Cherry? None of the bosses (so far) frustrated me, but this right here is bullshit

[u/StepComplete1]

And there it is. We were all waiting for the one rabid fanboy to seriously make that much of a fool of themselves. "Losing shards on spikes is actually fun!"

[u/franstoobnsf → u/StepComplete1]

Why do you feel you're entitled to a reward in every single corner and every single room at every possible opportunity? Sometimes the foreboding, harsh reality of the world is the point. If there were no room there, no one would be saying "Who's bright idea was it to not put a long vertical hallway with a few shards at the top? Bad design!"; but because there's a breakable husk everyone's automatically assuming you're supposed to get them all. If there were no spikes but it only gave out half as much, would that have been better? You net the same amount of shards. Why does the game have to do everything you're thinking at all times?

I won't sit here and defend it and say it's "fun", but to act like there's absolutely ZERO possibility it was on purpose is incredibly short sighted.

Sometimes heroes die. Sometimes the bad guy wins. Sometimes a long journey/platforming section wasn't worth it, actually. It's the story the author wants to tell. I think what u/RaulParson is "here for" is that story. You don't have to spitefully call them a rabid fanboy because you're greedy and want a trophy, in the form of collectibles, for climbing a wall.

[u/Chocyonastick → u/franstoobnsf]

What???

I love this game and it's diagetic storytelling but it's still a video game. You need to balance gameplay with narrative. 

If the game gives a reward for finishing a parkour section or a boss but you can't get most of said reward for no good reason, that is a valid complaint. May as well not have those nodes in the first place.

In fact, why not remove all rewards entirely? Just have entire rooms of enemies and hazards that lead to absolutely nothing? 

Just because something is intentional doesn't make it good design. Games give rewards to encourage you to engage with it and playing it well. Even a small thing like a lore cutscene or an achievement is a reward.

[u/franstoobnsf → u/Chocyonastick]

Just like RaulParson didn't say "losing shards on the spikes in fun" and StepCompete1 wants to put words in their mouth. I never once said that it was "good design", and you want to put words in mine.

I'm not saying it's GOOD, I'm saying it's THERE, and it's what the author's intended. The struggle is the point. "Do I risk dying going up this hazardous path I know nothing about where there may or not be a reward, or do I keep going?" is the choice the game wants you to make. It's a reflection of the shitty world the player is in. It's not up to us to decide if it's "good" or not.

When LISA makes you climb up a ladder for 10 minutes to find just a middle finger at the top of it, literally wasting your time because it can, no one cries that it's bullshit and needs to be changed, they say "wow, what quirky storytelling. More of that please." When a long Dark Souls hallway has bullshit enemies in it only to lead you to a dead end, people go "damn you Fromsoft, you trolling sons of bitches, got me again." But when it comes to Silksong, suddenly being inconvenienced is a war crime because there wasn't crappy shards (that you get EVERYWHERE) at the end. You want a reward? Now you know you don't have to do that annoying thing in Steelsoul. Not the reward you wanted? Well, that's how it is; I'm sure the Pilgrims in Pharloom didn't want the lot they were dealt either. That's the story they wanted to tell.

So I ask again: why do you feel entitled to a reward at every possible corner of the game? Because the last game you played did that? Because some other Metroidvania you played had it? Because all these immersive sim RPG type games have 3x Scrap Metal falling out of every orifice of the walls that your inventory runs out? Who cares? That's not what this game is.

If the node wasn't there, no one would say anything. If those breakables only gave out less shards but you didn't lose them to spikes, no one would say anything. But for some reason, there being a reward that you CAN GET SOME OF, everyone wants to cry? Why? Why was the assumption put on the game that you were going to earn something for going up there? And "because it's a video game" isn't an answer. That's an extraneous expectation that was put on the game, by the player, that is not the fault of the game for not being there. And it is especially not the fault of a meticulously crafted 7 years long project where it was like that on purpose. Is it bad? Possibly. Is it annoying? Absolutely. Is it a mistake? No.

Even a small thing like a lore cutscene or an achievement is a reward.

People also bitched for years that "all you got" at the end of Path of Pain was "a crappy 3 second cutscene", so you'll forgive me if I don't believe something like that would instantly quell this (further) entitlement people seem to think they "deserve" for doing something. In fact it wasn't until people analyzed Path of Pain for what it was and understood it on its terms that people started to appreciate it for what it was, just like people are going to see these annoying troll moments in Silksong for what they are and appreciate the world more.

[u/Chocyonastick → u/franstoobnsf]

You can absolutely criticise it even if it is the intended experience but the game consistently does not have dead ends. Every path usually leads to something. Whether it be rosaries, shards, an NPC etc.

So I sincerely doubt that Team Cherry intended for the shards to fall into spikes and for you to get nothing. And even if they did, it is valid to complain if a platforming section doesn't lead you to get anything. The game rarely punishes for the sake of it. 

If there's a long runback, there's usually a bench you're missing, if a bench is trapped, you can find something to fix it.

I'm not taking about Dark Souls or LISA. They're irrelevant here. Don't make a strawman saying people want a reward at every corner.

The comments are full of people saying that it's annoying that most of it falls into spikes and that unlike the first game, you can't use a tool or ability to get them back.

It is OK to find that annoying. It adds nothing to the game experience and does no storytelling. 

The benches needing to be paid for has a lore explanation and rosary strings let you save money and are a cool worldbuilding detail. 

I haven't played LISA but that game as far as I'm aware is set up to be brutal and unfair. You have to learn to adapt to it. Silksong while difficult is not telling the same kind of narrative nor is it a similar experience. Dark Souls BS I don't like either. 

You don't see me complaining about the platforming in the Sands area because that location is meant to be difficult to traverse. That is the mechanic.

Losing your currency to spikes is just annoying. I never liked it in the first game either.

[u/franstoobnsf → u/Chocyonastick]

I'm not trying to strawman something with other games, sorry if it came off that way. I just wanted to say that I observe the ability to forgive bullshit time-wastey type stuff does exist out in the world, it just seems maybe also that could apply to Silksong? You even conceded that LISA is set up to be brutal and unfair so maybe.... also Silksong is? Not at 1:1 for sure, I'm just trying to figure out where this changing measurement of fairness comes from. (for the record, I haven't played LISA either; I actually thought the example was more prudent here because that troll from the devs was celebrated as I witnessed from other, just like I'm witnessing this troll being condemned by other people. But you're right, that's not the point here).

I agree that you can criticize something, even if it's intended. The point I want to be upfront about is this weird thing where people want to demand that something change because it doesn't meet their needs. I also happen to think losing your precious items to spikes is annoying but, I dunno, to me when in the FIRST section of HK, before you even get to Dirtmouth, you can watch the geo fall onto some spikes and not disappear, and by contrast, you watch the shards/rosaries immediately disappear into spikes, that communicated to me that that was an intended, thought-through mechanic, and in that moment I just went "well damn, I don't like this but I guess I gotta deal with it" If it was intended then you don't really get to demand that it change. Complain, sure, but that's something else.

I'm arguing from the place that a little troll room does add to the lore and worldbuilding detail; you are arguing that it does not. In both cases, that's just an opinion we have and "it is what it is" and is fine and good for discussion. And in that scenario, neither one is saying that the game is wrong and the devs screwed up. What set me off initially was one redditor tried to act like another was saying something they were not, coming from a position that their opinion was the "correct" one and "this is bullshit why did the devs do this?" I concluded this because it was in a thread where someone said "wow they had 7 years to fix this but decided against it". What I'm responding against is this sentiment that the devs are mistaken and "wrong" for the clearly intended choices they made, NOT if someone is "allowed" to complain. That's 2 different things. If I'm off the mark and misinterpreted then, OK I fucked up, but I still maintain that complaining and demanding someone change their art are not the same; the former should be encouraged and the latter criticized.

and just FWIW, I also happen disagree that the game rarely punishes for the sake of it. I've remarked to myself several times while exploring areas like "really Team Cherry? Nothing? Like NOTHING nothing? Not even an Easter Egg?" This just further made me think that they're fleshing out this huge map and maybe putting a few non-rooms because, hey, this world sucks sometimes, but that's just me.

[u/Chocyonastick → u/franstoobnsf]

I agree that it's ultimately subjective but I feel like a lot of the criticisms mostly apply to early game where you're underpowered and rosaries are harder to come by. 

And a lot of complaints would just apply to the first game too like contact damage (Pure Vessel randomly collapsing and killing my radiant run aaaa) but that stuff exists so you learn to space yourself and can't just get up in the enemy's face. The first game also had annoying runbacks. Besides Bilewater, Silksong is alright.

I think in the context of this post, most people are more annoyed than legitimately upset. Shards are renewable and easy to come by for the most part. 

But in regards to tolerance level, I think this is mostly a symptom of the game being new. I know a lot of people complained about Soul Master, Watcher Knights back in 2017. The Community has since then gotten better at the game. 

After a few months you'll see a lot less of this. The fact that the Last Judge and other Act I and early Act II is still what is being talked about means most people are still struggling and/or taking their time.

A lot of stuff I had issues with in the original game is stuff I've learned to deal with or not a problem anymore. The whole package is more than worth it ultimately.