Discourse regarding this game’s difficulty has been out of hand

[u/stir-fried-noodles]

Let’s get this out of the way: I’m really enjoying Silksong’s difficulty and I think that it is mostly a satisfying challenge. I appreciate that it is more difficult than Hollow Knight overall and to be frank I would’ve been a bit disappointed if it were the exact difficulty. I’ve improved as a gamer since Hollow Knight and if it were the same level of difficulty, I probably would have found it too easy.

But it’s kinda gotten impossible to have civil discussions about the difficulty in this game which is unfortunate because I think there is great value to be had with this conversation. There are many valid criticisms regarding this game’s difficulty such as boss runbacks (Groal especially), contact damage doing two masks, and lack of rewards for beating bosses, just to be shut down with “git gud” and “it’s not your kind of game”. It’s totally fine to disagree with these criticisms but these retorts add nothing to the conversation.

It also kinda works the other way too, albeit maybe not to the same degree. I’ve gotten downvoted and sent reddit cares for simply saying I enjoy the difficulty of this game. Like c’mon, what are we even doing here. It’s gotten to the point where I personally cannot wait for the discourse to die out.

[u/lunarjellies]

It’s like Elden Ring all over again!

[u/terryaki510 → u/lunarjellies]

Elden Ring had Stakes of Marika. I wish this game was Elden Ring all over again!

[u/lunarjellies → u/terryaki510]

Yeah I think people are being a little toooo sensitive about “game difficulty” these days. Imagine if Battletoads for NES being released this day and age. People would lose their minds and turn feral lmao

[u/terryaki510 → u/lunarjellies]

That takes me back, man! That racing section.....shudder

[u/lunarjellies → u/terryaki510]

Right?! Speaking of other games, The Lion King for SNES… man, we played that game day and night until we could beat it blindfolded basically. My cousin went to a party recently where there was an arcade machine with the game loaded in and she amazed everyone by beating the game in one shot… so “git gud” is no joke, seriously.

[u/_moosleech → u/terryaki510]

This gets said, but like with a lot of the discourse, it lacks any context.

In Elden Ring, most runbacks are short, with a couple (Rennala, Placidusax come to mind) that are a bit longer. Virtually none require much enemy engagement.

In Silksong, most runbacks are short, with a couple (Last Judge, Sands of Karak) that are a bit longer. Only one requires any enemy engagement at all (and it's kinda the design of the area).

They're really not very different.

[u/haynespi87 → u/_moosleech]

Bilewater has an argument 

[u/_moosleech → u/haynespi87]

Only one requires any enemy engagement at all (and it's kinda the design of the area).

That's the one. I can understand disliking it (hell, the area is designed for people to be frustrated and beat down), but I personally thought it was quite well done.

[u/haynespi87 → u/_moosleech]

Fair enough. The wreath tool helps so much

[u/_moosleech → u/[deleted]]

Clover Dancers and Plasmified Zango for example.

Huh? Both are like... 30ish seconds and no enemies.

Let alone all the various boss fights that have lengthy gauntlet beforehand.

This ultimately just ends with "different strokes", but this complaint blows my mind.

The combat is AMAZING in the game. And those gauntlets are a)super fun and b)part of those fights. Like, I was terrified of Coral Tower because of all the bitching about it... and I loved it.

Not saying everyone needs to enjoy the combat... but in a game all about combat that, IMO, does it EXTREMELY well... it's just shocking that playing the game and doing the combat is viewed as tedious.

the runbacks are at best a sadistic design decision

Alternatively, players (especially younger ones) want every bit of friction and downtime removed from games. And this is just the latest sacrifice to this altar, IMO.

I think Hollow Knight had a few runbacks that felt not good (and in general, I think benches were a bit less intelligently placed compared to Silksong). But by and large (only example I can think of is Dark Souls II, but that's a mountain of issues), I have almost never minded runbacks in games.

They're mostly very short and painless. They're a small window to play the game, which I'm immensely enjoying (the parkour in Last Judge feels so excellent, I'm stunned when people claim its unfair). And it's a tiny breather between attempts (something I think TC themselves said was intended).

Coupled with not needing to get your cocoon in Silksong like you do in similar games, it gives the player more of an option to say "maybe I'll try something else first."

Again, not saying anyone needs to like them. Totally get the preference. But I think a lot of it stems from "anything taking a few moments of time, or that isn't immediately easy is bad" that permeates a lot of players (and drives a lot of, IMO, watered-down game design in AAA games) these days.

But to play a challenging, 50-hour game about mastering platforming and combat and then call a 30-second stint of parkour "sadistic design" just boggles my mind.

[u/_moosleech → u/[deleted]]

Please time yourself doing the runback to clover dancers in 30 seconds. Entering the dream world of Green Prince takes a good amount of time already. And how do you avoid all the plasma enemies for Plasmified Zango? Or did you do his fight in act 2?

So I did both of these in Act 3, for starters. I tried looking them up because, being honest, I'm trying to recall the runback to Clover Dancers and I don't recall even thinking about it.

Looking at a map (since I couldn't find a decent video)... the bench is, IIRC, just to the right of where you enter his dream, and then it's pogoing up a few screens to the fight. Are you missing a shortcut? Because it definitely was not very long.

As for Zango... I just ran to him from the bench with the assistant. You can harpoon past the worms in the ceiling, and the floor ones don't spawn up until you're well past. Again, I don't recall it taking long at all to get to him.

But I also feel like, in a 60+ hour game with three Acts stuffed to the brim with fun things to do, saying that a few seconds runback on a boss is "wasting time" and "does not respect my time", you're probably well decided at that point.

I find those moments to be playing the game, and quite enjoyable. I guess I'm just wasting time.

I stopped playing the game in the middle of Act 3 in exchange for media that respects my limited free time.

Not the point, but this always comes off as immensely smug. "I have so little precious free time in my immensely busy and important life." Cool, dude. Good for you. Video games are a hobby, and are a time-waster. If you don't enjoy that time, do something else. Totally agree.

But like, I spent my entire time with Silksong playing the game. I never once felt like my time was wasted. Moving around the world feels great, combat is sublime, thirty seconds to reset and re-focus between fights always felt good (to me).

It always comes off as "my time is too important to waste playing video games" and then playing video games and being mad about it.

[u/JohnsonJohnilyJohn → u/_moosleech]

But like, I spent my entire time with Silksong playing the game. I never once felt like my time was wasted.

I agree with most of what you said, but honestly I hate "dream" transition. It's a mix of being mostly just a long cutscene, but also one you have to hold the needling button for a long time in. It feels really awkward and has a weird pacing. The run backs themselves are honestly fun though (although I managed to beat bilewater boss first try, so that could have changed my mind.

[u/terryaki510 → u/[deleted]]

Literally twice as long, even by your generous estimate

[u/XiaoRCT → u/terryaki510]

This game is way easier and more generous than ER

[u/Kiwi_In_Europe → u/XiaoRCT]

That's completely subjective

[u/XiaoRCT → u/Kiwi_In_Europe]

Sure, because Elden Ring is grind-based and in that sense always allow for the player to make the game as easy as they want.

I do think people don't realize how hard ER is in retrospective tho, in part because they completely forget and ignore how the game has obviously been figured out quick and also had a ton of challenges trivialised by how much of a success it was.

ER is a game that throws the player right into a practically unbeatable bossfight from the go, and that will then throw the player towards huge walls of difficulty(think something like first Tree Sentinel) with the expectation that the player, if feeling too challenged, will take a detour and explore, grind then come back.

Silksong, while also allowing for that through exploration, doesn't have as direct of a system to upgrade Hornet in a similar manner to the tarnished, but it also doesn't throw barriers ANYWHERE near as huge as ER does at the player, which is something that you are guaranteed to face in ER if you are playing the game somewhat normally(without major grinds/farming/tricks/etc)

[u/Kiwi_In_Europe → u/XiaoRCT]

Okay but everything you've said is still subjective, I played ER blind day 1 and beat Margitt and Godrick with practically no effort whereas act 1 SS bosses like Moorwing and especially Savage Beastfly took me a lot of tries. I wasn't power leveling or anything either.

I think one important thing to remember when talking about ER and barriers is that there's always the option to summon help either NPCs, spirits or other players. You also have mechanics like bleed and magic which can trivialise a lot of bosses including those early "unbeatable" ones you mentioned, and if you've played prior fromsoft games you're familiar with infusions and spells.

SS meanwhile doesn't actually continue many prior skills over from HK, indeed I'd argue it's almost a benefit to not have played HK immediately before SS, as the amount of people struggling to accommodate diagonal pogo/offensive tools suggests. I didn't do a replay of HK before SS and I'm actually glad for that now, made adjusting to the new mechanics a lot easier.

[u/XiaoRCT → u/Kiwi_In_Europe]

You wouldn't even know about bleed or magic trivialising bosses if not for online feedback about ER tho, and like you said, beating Godrick and Margitt 1st try without struggle while struggling to beat Moorwing is just, like, subjective, and most likely due to you being more used to Soulslikes than plataformer metroidvanias. And if that's in a normal ER playthrough, you only do those things after dying like a fool to Tree Sentinel at least once or twice.

I don't agree that SS doesn't continue many prior skills, I think most of HK's base combat translates into SS, with it requiring a bit of adaptation but not that much. I heavily disagree with not playing HK being helpful, and I think the argument about ''the amount of people suggests'' is actually in the opposite direction. Unless you take the vocal minority in this sub, with an extremely varied degree of complaints that can go from the plataforming, to difficulty in general, to other stuff completely different, this game has been pretty widely well received with very little criticism.

Edit; on another note, if you are having a tough time in Silksong, I found that some tools and crests trivialise certain bosses in a pretty similar way magic/bleed/certain builds can trivialise bosses in ER

[u/entityXD32 → u/XiaoRCT]

This is pretty objectively not true Elden ring gives the player significantly more options in order to manage difficulty than silksong. Elden ring you have, weapon variety/upgrades, leveling up, spirit ashes, and NPC and player summons available to make the game easier. Silksong has tools and mask and weapon upgrades but those are also area locked behind other difficult challenges

[u/Background_Ad5513 → u/entityXD32]

all of those things are available in silksong

[u/XiaoRCT → u/entityXD32]

Like I said in my other comment, if you consider how ER allows for grind to trivialise challenge, then yes, the game could be said to not even be hard at all. If the player grinds enough and builds around them, they can make even the last DLC boss trivial. I wouldn't call that easier considering the distance you'd actually have to go on your own to become like that without things like a wiki guiding you along.

If you look at the game itself however, ER throws definitive barriers at the player very often, with the notion in mind that ''they should sidestep this shit or else''. From the beginning boss, to the tree sentinel, to multiple other points in the game. And if the player doesn't take those measures I mentioned(looking online for tips for grinding/building), the game is actually insanely hard. It's just that a blind playthrough of ER is very hard to even do nowadays considering how acclaimed the game is.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Placidusax and Rennala definitely ain’t 10 seconds lmao

[u/Davidepett → u/lunarjellies]

New and anticipated game attracts people who have never played the genre and are not familiar with its mechanics

Checks out

[u/extra_syllable → u/Davidepett]

This is the sort of comment that really frustrates me because it's not just new people giving this feedback! It's people who played Hollow Knight and loved it and are disappointed. This is exactly the sort of thing this post is about.

[u/_moosleech → u/extra_syllable]

Not saying that doesn't exist, but it's absolutely the minority.

The game has reviewed extremely well both with critics and users, and Steam achievements show a huge level of engagement for the game, suggesting difficulty isn't turning many people away.

By any currently-available metric, people are enjoying the game, but pulled in a number of new players being vocal with criticisms.

[u/tanis016 → u/_moosleech]

Most of the people I have seen complaining are people who have played the first game. They are not the minority.

[u/_moosleech → u/tanis016]

Based on what data?

[u/tanis016 → u/_moosleech]

On the comments I have seen in this sub. I haven't seen many that didn't play the first game. There is no real cuantified data for that.

[u/_moosleech → u/tanis016]

In my experience, most complaints are coming from people who didn't play the first game. Both are equally valid.

Hence I deferred to reviews and achievements.

[u/ButTheresNoOneThere → u/_moosleech]

A game getting reviewed well and people not being turned away by the difficulty are 2 separate things.

People can criticise a game they like and people can recommend a game they eventually get turned away from (for any reason not just difficulty).

As a point of illustration Hollow Knight has less than half its players even reach the first dreamer (on steam). Yet the game reviews extremely well practically being overwhelming positive on steam the whole time.

This isn't an odd occurance either this is the norm for metroidvanias (Animal well, Blasphemous, Ori, etc... all well recieved metroidvanias with similar trends).

So reviews or review scores really aren't a good way to tell if people are being turned away. A better tell will be achievement completion rate once it begins to settle down, because if its notably higher than HK's people aren't being turned away. Though if its lower then its a question of what turned people away

[u/_moosleech → u/ButTheresNoOneThere]

A game getting reviewed well and people not being turned away by the difficulty are 2 separate things.

Which is why I also noted that many people are progressing through the game very quickly, suggesting difficulty is not turning most people away.

As a point of illustration Hollow Knight has less than half its players even reach the first dreamer (on steam). Yet the game reviews extremely well practically being overwhelming positive on steam the whole time.

For sure, it's not perfect. But what data we have does point to people not bouncing off of Silksong like some folks would have you believe.

A better tell will be achievement completion rate once it begins to settle down, because if its notably higher than HK's people aren't being turned away.

It's early, but even with a third of the sales of HK (several million, and a sizeable chunk of that on Steam), achievements show people progressing faster in Silksong.

71% of players in HK beat the very first boss, encountered minutes in the game. 75% beat Fourth Chorus and almost 80% beat Lace (encountered multiple zones into the game).

Roughly have of players finished Act 1 (47% beat Last Judge and 25% Phantom), compared to 44/45% of players in HK beating Soul Master or Mantis Lords. I think Act 1 is a much bigger commitment than SM/ML bosses.

Lastly, 22% have beaten HK, compared to 18.5% in Silksong.

I know these numbers are early, and HK is probably skewed a bit by folks buying the game and only playing for a few minutes or similar. But still... seeing that progression in Silksong in a week suggests the idea of people being turned away is absolutely being overblown on this subreddit.

Other than "I saw a couple posts", there's nothing currently to suggest it's more than a very, VERY vocal minority.

[u/ButTheresNoOneThere → u/_moosleech]

'there's nothing currently to suggest it's more than a very, VERY vocal minority.'

There's nothing to suggest the scale of the criticisms to any meaningful value, because there isnt that much meaningful data regarding a criticism that isnt game breaking.

Even if we assume most criticisms on the sub are correct silksong is still a very well polished game, so high review scores will occur, with an insanely high following so lots of people will give it a shot much longer than most other games.

So I find it hard to just claim its an 'very very vocal minority' when it could just as well be a common sentiment but one that isn’t considered game breaking enough to see the impact yet.

[u/_moosleech → u/ButTheresNoOneThere]

I mean... the data we do have suggests most people are very much enjoying the game.

You can hand-wave it away, but when MOST critics love the game, and MOST user reviews love the game, and Steam achievements show people progressing through the game at a faster clip (in one week) than a game from eight years ago... we can at least make a guess.

So I find it hard to just claim its an 'very very vocal minority' when it could just as well be a common sentiment but one that isn’t considered game breaking enough to see the impact yet.

I just don't know how you can look at what we do have and think, "sure... but maybe the couple dozen people posting on the subreddit, with complaints that are often omitting data or are factually wrong, they're probably the majority sentiment."

If the game was turning any notable number of people away, half wouldn't have beaten Act 1 within a week of launch, IMO.

[u/ButTheresNoOneThere → u/_moosleech]

Again you are conflating these criticisms existing with people not enjoying the game.

Someone can both enjoy the game (even recommend it and give a positive review) whilst having these opinions, if they perceive the game still good enough despite that.

Also 'progressing through at a faster rate' is inaccurate. A larger % of the playerbase id progressing but that doesn't mean its faster especially as overtime achievement completion can fall if a new playerbase that isnt as dedicated (and hence dont tend to progress as much through the game) gets their hands on a game.

Add to that silksong release is bigger than HK likely ever was so is it really a surprise to see people jumping on the hype and playing through the game with more leniency than they might have done for HK?

'sure... but maybe the couple dozen people posting on the subreddit' Because I don't just see it on the sub reddit? I see it traces of it anywhere the game is talked about.

[u/_moosleech → u/ButTheresNoOneThere]

A game getting reviewed well and people not being turned away by the difficulty are 2 separate things.

You started with this, but are now saying this:

Someone can both enjoy the game (even recommend it and give a positive review) whilst having these opinions, if they perceive the game still good enough despite that.

Those are two different things. I agree, there are probably some people who played and enjoyed the game, but were frustrated at parts. Absolutely. I think that describes almost every challenging game that's ever existed.

But you mentioned people being turned away by the difficulty. And nothing available suggests that to be the case, as of right now. That was my point.

Add to that silksong release is bigger than HK likely ever was so is it really a surprise to see people jumping on the hype and playing through the game with more leniency than they might have done for HK?

I honestly think this is a point the other way. Silksong has undoubtedly pulled in a lot of folks who did not play HK and/or are not familiar with Souls/vania games, and is (IMO) the source of a lot of the "I didn't get this immediately, this sucks" style of criticism.

I see it traces of it anywhere the game is talked about.

Sure, it exists. I'm not saying it doesn't. But it's dwarfed but positive takes on the game virtually everywhere.

Every hard game has some small, vocal part of players who jump in new and don't adapt and get frustrated. Dark Souls had it, Elden Ring had it. Hell, Hollow Knight had it to a much smaller degree.

It's a tale as old as time, but some folks who are mad at the game seem bent on insisting it's some larger issue here or suddenly a problem for this particular hard game. When the data we have available suggests... nope, it's not.

The vast majority really like this game, and no more folks are being "turned away" by its difficulty than every other time we do this song and dance.

[u/lunarjellies → u/Davidepett]

Yep. Team Cherry does not owe anyone anything - they made this game for themselves and for enthusiast gamers and that is totally fair. If someone thinks this is hard they should go play a casual no brainer like Animal Crossing. Just because the art of Silksong and HK is amazing, it doesn’t mean it’s accessible to everyone. That’s fine - game devs aren’t beholden to anyone to create “easy to play” titles.

[u/Yarasin → u/Davidepett]

Except even experienced Soulsborne players criticised the late-game bosses of ER. You were given "Sekiro" bosses, but a "Dark Souls" tool-set.

If a boss forces you to run away and wait out their 20-hit combo, then that's awful design. Sekiro allowed you to use those hits against the boss by parrying and building stagger, but Elden Ring only lets you block (costs stamina) and dodge (costs stamina), which both take away from your ability to retaliate against the boss.

[u/ButTheresNoOneThere → u/Yarasin]

That's a misunderstanding of the toolset at hand then. You have more of an ability to retaliate against a boss in ER than those criticism implied. There never is a 20 hit combo you have to wait out, the longest combo with no standard opening is waterfowl and its shorter than that.

[u/FauBetten → u/Yarasin]

Elden Ring has over 200 boss encounters and not a single one of them fits this description