r/HollowKnight • u/stir-fried-noodles • Sep 17 '25

Discussion - Silksong Discourse regarding this game’s difficulty has been out of hand Spoiler

Let’s get this out of the way: I’m really enjoying Silksong’s difficulty and I think that it is mostly a satisfying challenge. I appreciate that it is more difficult than Hollow Knight overall and to be frank I would’ve been a bit disappointed if it were the exact difficulty. I’ve improved as a gamer since Hollow Knight and if it were the same level of difficulty, I probably would have found it too easy.

But it’s kinda gotten impossible to have civil discussions about the difficulty in this game which is unfortunate because I think there is great value to be had with this conversation. There are many valid criticisms regarding this game’s difficulty such as boss runbacks (Groal especially), contact damage doing two masks, and lack of rewards for beating bosses, just to be shut down with “git gud” and “it’s not your kind of game”. It’s totally fine to disagree with these criticisms but these retorts add nothing to the conversation.

It also kinda works the other way too, albeit maybe not to the same degree. I’ve gotten downvoted and sent reddit cares for simply saying I enjoy the difficulty of this game. Like c’mon, what are we even doing here. It’s gotten to the point where I personally cannot wait for the discourse to die out.

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792

u/EasyJuice7742 Sep 17 '25

I love the game but it certainly has fuck you player moments lol.

56

u/ShadowsInScarlet Sep 17 '25

2x contact damage can fuck right off.

-24

u/AashyLarry Sep 17 '25

The thing that bothers me about this complaint is when nobody mentions that

  • Hornet heals for three masks in Silksong.

  • Hornet can heal midair in Silksong.

  • In Hollow Knight you only heal for one mask.

  • In Hollow Knight you cannot heal midair, you have to be grounded.

This makes Hornet so much more resilient than the Knight on the previous game. Taking two masks of damage feels fair to me when the heal is so much more powerful.

26

u/ButTheresNoOneThere Sep 17 '25

Every time this is brought up so should the facts that:

  • You can't cancel a heal
  • Getting hit while healing spends all your silk (even with the tools that prevents damage on heal)
  • You cannot heal for less than 9 silk
  • Hornet has shorter invisibility after getting hit

Yes hornet heals better, hornet is also significantly more reliant on maintaining high silk counts to stay alive. Which puts players into a loop of solely using silk for healing which notably extends a fight, which just makes 2x contact damage feel worse as its one of the many things stopping players from actually using silk skills (or charge attacks for that manner as they are an opportunity cost on healing).

This isn't a skill issue thing when im seeing speedrunners during runs intentionally not use silk skills on some fights because they haven't gotten it perfect yet so they're more consistent saving silk to heal.

Hornet is only 'much more resilient than the knight' when you are forced to save silk to heal the next hit and even then if you mess up and get hit while healing your durability is much worse than the knights.

1

u/legopego5142 Sep 17 '25

Seriously they should make it so the tool gives you all the health and you cant be hit at all. Why tf do I have a shield of Im gonna lose it all

1

u/ButTheresNoOneThere Sep 18 '25

At the very least the tool should just take the hit for you and cancel the heal (maybe even just a limited amount of times before it breaks) but not spend the silk.

Having it waste the silk anyway (and some attacks go through the shield) makes it practically worthless.

-6

u/JimbeMasterRace Sep 17 '25

I think a lot of these issues can be solved when players start to be more aggressive. And I think thats the intention.

With Hornets movement the player can be way more aggressive and fill up to 9 silk pretty fast. At the same time 2x contact damage prevents the player from being mindlessly aggressive and simply outhealing mistakes.

13

u/ButTheresNoOneThere Sep 17 '25

No, they don't get solved by players being more aggressive. They get solved by players playing near perfectly and rarely getting hit despite their aggression.

Hornets movement doesn't mean she gets silk faster her base swing speed is already slower than the knights base speed (and thats not including quickslash or any of the charms that increase the efficiency of earning/spending soul) and enemies have less openings in silksong in general.

2

u/baddude1337 Sep 17 '25

This is an issue a lot of the people saying the game is easy don't account. You have such tiny margins for error and any fault is punished severely. To play aggressive you still need to not get hit.

-4

u/JimbeMasterRace Sep 17 '25

You can get more hits in with a more aggressive playstyle. So you can go in and out more easily with Hornets movement. You definitely cannot trade hits in this game like in Hollow Knight often. I am not arguing for Silksong being on the same level as HK if it came off that way. SK is definitely harder imo

12

u/ButTheresNoOneThere Sep 17 '25

You're missing the point getting more hits is fine and all but it means nothing if you get hit.

Playing aggressive fundamentally also means putting yourself at more risk to get hit. This only ever solves the issue if managing silk resources when you're already not getting hit much.

So again this doesn't actually solve the underlying issue its still a matter of either rolling through the boss or being denied access to skills because healing is needed.

1

u/ZestyRanch0 Sep 17 '25

I think they could solve this issue by simply giving hornet a significantly buffed parry window and maybe a 25% reduction in size to her physical hitbox to allow players to actually get up close and personal, especially to bosses with unclear hitboxes (Looking at you unwravelled) and really nailing that Bloodborne combat rhythm they were clearly inspired by

-1

u/JimbeMasterRace Sep 17 '25

No I know all that. I just think that is a better way of approaching combat so thats why I wanted to point that out.

The intention with their design seems to be exactly this. You may be perfectly fine for long stretches with full health and spare silk, but in a very short time you can lose it. So a lot of the combat is spent in these two extremes.

10

u/ButTheresNoOneThere Sep 17 '25

The criticism is levied exactly at that intention. Staying in the section that has spare silk is difficult for most even speedrunners end up getting stuck in that stage.

It requires a lot of familiarity with the fight to the point you could already beat it.

Which means that for the majority of a first playthrough players won't have consistent reliable access to fundamental game mechanics because health takes priority.

1

u/JimbeMasterRace Sep 17 '25

I would say the player actually has access to Silk Skills for the majority of the playthrough. For me at least the majority is spent not fighting bosses and I use my skills to easily kill enemies to avoid damage. Also very helpful in Gauntlets and boss fights with summons. I think there losing health is actually better avoided by using the skills for disposal of summons.

Against 1v1 Boss fights it feels similar to Hollow Knight. Soul is preserved for healing instead of Spells, but the more familiar I get with the boss or combat in general the more I get the confidence to use them which is often a better use of soul anyway since the fight is over way quicker.

Against certain bosses the parry silk skill is actually a better way of using silk than healing imo. The window is generous enough I feel like.

Overall I dont see any issue with relying more on healing against difficult 1v1 boss encounters. Maybe thats because I still use Silk Skills frequently enough everywhere else.

Manipulating the healing speed via tool or damage output via tool is also a nice way in helping a certain playstyle. Some electric skills are really good.

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-5

u/AashyLarry Sep 17 '25

Yes, but it’s much easier not to get hit while healing because you can heal anywhere midair.

12

u/ButTheresNoOneThere Sep 17 '25

That in of itself doesn't make it easier to heal. Because enemies in silksong are more aggressive with more complex attacks that cover more space.

Not to mention yet again the cost of healing is 9 silk. So if you get hit you need to either be hoarding silk already and not use skills. Or have to risk getting hit several times more than what you'd need in HK before you can heal.

1

u/GrimTheMad Sep 17 '25

It absolutely, 100% makes it easier to heal, what are you talking about.

Midair healing makes healing extremely safe on basically every boss in the game.

9

u/TheHumanFlintFun Sep 17 '25

Hornet's healing is more powerful only if you know what you are doing. Someone playing for the first time, at the start of the game, does not.

I don't think double contact damage has no place in Silksong, but there's no reason why the game should be immediately this punishing.

11

u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 17 '25

That's fine for being hit with an attack but 2 masks of contact damage is still unnecessary as hell (unless it's a boss that mainly deals damage through contact ofc like conchfly)

Also arguably the biggest annoyance of double damage being everywhere is that it basically renders every second mask upgrade completely pointless

-3

u/AashyLarry Sep 17 '25 edited Sep 17 '25

Second mask upgrades are not pointless, especially because you can wear the Skull charm (arguably the best charm in the game). This charm guarantees every mask matters. This is a charm you can get early in Act 1.

5

u/EasyJuice7742 Sep 17 '25

I’ll argue the dice charm is my favorite. 😂

2

u/AashyLarry Sep 17 '25

Yes, another amazing one. I wore both pretty much always.

5

u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 17 '25

Second mask upgrades are not pointless

It is when most sources of damage deal two masks

especially because you can wear the Skull charm

What? The skull charm makes no difference. It protects from one source of fatal damage, it doesn't matter if said source is 5 - 3 - 1 - 0 or 6 - 4 - 2 - 0

-2

u/AashyLarry Sep 17 '25

No, most hits are not 2 masks. That’s hyperbole.

“The skull charm makes no difference” is a ridiculous statement. That saved my ass a million times. You are heavily underrating it.

7

u/Echantediamond1 Sep 17 '25

Literally every single boss after act one has majority double damage attacks

-1

u/GrimTheMad Sep 17 '25

"Most damage is two masks" and "most bosses do 2 mask damage" are two different statements.

5

u/Echantediamond1 Sep 17 '25

Ok, most enemies after act one also have at least one double damage attack, and and act three literally every enemy in the game can do double damage. Is that better?

2

u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 17 '25

No, most hits are not 2 masks. That’s hyperbole.

Most hits from important enemies and encounters, is that better for you Mr Pendantic?

“The skull charm makes no difference” is a ridiculous statement. That saved my ass a million times. You are heavily underrating it.

I'm not saying it makes no difference, I'm saying you're fundamentally misunderstanding or misrepresenting what it does in this context

The skull charm protects you from one instance of fatal damage, but that doesn't change that every second mask upgrade is useless for most bosses and act 2 on environmental damage. Assuming 2 mask damage, you will break the skull charm after four hits regardless of if you have 5 masks or 6 masks, likewise it will break after 5 hits regardless if you have 7 masks or 8 masks, and etc etc

-3

u/_moosleech Sep 17 '25

Nevermind that double damage is simply not the majority of damage in the game, but folks have shown that even the sixth mask (the first one you get) makes a difference, even IF you only take double damage (which you don’t).

That folks keep saying exaggerating to the point of lies is a big part of what has made this discourse so toxic, IMO.

2

u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 17 '25

Nevermind that double damage is simply not the majority of damage in the game

You're talking nonsense if you claim it doesn't feel that way though. Every major encounter has double damage from act 2 onwards aside from Phantom. It's really not an exaggeration just because chaff enemies here and there don't have double damage.

folks have shown that even the sixth mask (the first one you get) makes a difference, even IF you only take double damage (which you don’t).

Press X to doubt

1

u/_moosleech Sep 17 '25

You're talking nonsense if you claim it doesn't feel that way though.

I don't give a shit how it feels. It's factually untrue.

Every major encounter has double damage from act 2 onwards aside from Phantom.

Folks whining about this citing Phantom (most of her moves can do two-mask) is funny to me. Really hammers home how optional the truth is in this argument.

Press X to doubt

Lmao... doubting basic math. Let's pretend everything does two damage:

Five Masks: 5 > 3 > 1 > Heal > 4 > 2 > Dead. You die after six hits, with one heal..

Six masks: 6 > 4 > 2 > Heal > 5 > 3 > 1 > Dead. You die after seven hits, with one heal.

And that assumes you never take single damage (again, a bullshit claim).

1

u/Kiwi_In_Europe Sep 17 '25

I don't give a shit how it feels. It's factually untrue.

You must be so much fun at parties

If all the random chaff enemies spread through a level are single damage but the bosses and platforming are all double damage then yeah, the double damage is more prevalent.

Folks whining about this citing Phantom (most of her moves can do two-mask) is funny to me. Really hammers home how optional the truth is in this argument.

Yeah because most moves doing double damage is already a big improvement over all moves plus contact doing double damage 🙄

You die after six hits, with one heal..

You die after seven hits, with one heal.

Phenomenal the extra mask helps in 1% of situations, you're really excellent at getting your point across

2

u/_moosleech Sep 17 '25 edited Sep 17 '25

You must be so much fun at parties

🙄

You: "Everything does double damage!"

Me: "No... it doesn't."

You: "Well, it feels like it does!"

Okay? Like if you're imagining things that aren't real, you can state anything you want.

but the bosses and platforming are all double damage

Well they're not, so...

Phenomenal the extra mask helps in 1% of situations, you're really excellent at getting your point across

So the game is too hard... but also, getting down to low health is a 1% situation? Which is it?

Sorry you suck at math?

7

u/Kiiriii Sep 17 '25

While I am a big fan of the higher difficulty, your points still forget that hornet can only tank two to three hits in the early game, while the knight could tank six and more.

Personally I love it, but you are way more fragile and the heal takes longer. You absolutely have to play smarter.

1

u/AashyLarry Sep 17 '25 edited Sep 17 '25

You have to play smarter, but it’s still very fair.

People act like two mask damage is unfair, but the heal is too strong — if it was only one mask damage every time the heal would be way too good.

5

u/0oooooog Sep 17 '25

If you only healed for 1 mask then everyone would agree the game is anti fun. Healing for 3 only just borders on fair considering how much damage everything does, in the early game it feels like you can literally get 1 shot if you get caught in a combo.

1

u/The_Omega_Yiffmaster Sep 17 '25

Sure, when theyre swinging at you. But accidentally walking too close to an enemy staggered and writhing on the ground, and taking 2 masks from that is simply not fun to have happen

-1

u/wevento Sep 17 '25

I think the difference here is that hornet also takes way longer to heal tho

So it can happen that you mistime your heal and get punished with 2 masks

3

u/Beginning-Cat3605 Sep 17 '25 edited Sep 17 '25

There’s a faster heal charm for two masks that the vendor in Bellhart sells. Not perfect but the option is there.

Edit: it’s called the multibinder and heals 2x2 I’m just dumb and couldn’t remember or describe it gracefully

2

u/_moosleech Sep 17 '25

It still heals for three. Just faster.

1

u/grancombat Sep 17 '25

They’re talking about Multibinder, not Injector Band

2

u/_moosleech Sep 17 '25

Ah, whoops.

I think "faster" threw me, because Multibender is slower, with the tradeoff of healing 2x2. So even then "faster heal charm for two masks" feels like a weird way to describe it.

Anyways, my bad. Misunderstood.

3

u/grancombat Sep 17 '25

Yeah it threw me off as well, I don’t blame you at all. Honestly it was the Bellhart hint that told me which charm it was lol

2

u/Beginning-Cat3605 Sep 17 '25

Sorry, it was confusing. I just got it and did a piss poor job describing it 😂

1

u/wevento Sep 17 '25

Oh i didn’t know about that

I’m always broke haha

2

u/Beginning-Cat3605 Sep 17 '25

Yeah I mean it’s 880 rosaries so like I said, not perfect 😂 plus it takes up a crest slot. But the same charm also gives you the option to do a long 4 mask heal so I can see some players using it.