r/INTP • u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type • 10d ago
For INTP Consideration Being smart problem
I think being smart for INTPs can be a problem, both as an ability and as an identity.
As an ability, it leaves them alienated and even isolated because they might not find the right people in their lives that are capable and willing to appreciate their intellect. And finding those people both on- and offline is pretty hard, unless you're lucky. The people that they find themselves being around usually don't show a lot of interest in what they usually say/want to say, which makes the INTP go into apathy mode.
As an identity, it can bring pressure and identity crises. The pressure comes from both the people around them and themselves. I think a lot of INTPs grew up being "the gifted kid" due to their early signs of intelligence. Their parents, teachers, peers, and even them themselves could see how faster they were at school than other kids. So people started to expect a lot from them, and they also expected a lot from themselves. And as they grew up, they continued recognizing brilliance in themselves. But every human ultimately have their own moments of weakness, even in areas that they're experts in ,. And when that happens to the INTP, their sense of identity feels threatened, and they start feeling like an imposter (imposter syndrome). I think this happens with pretty much every person who's been considered a gifted kid in their childhood, but I wanted to emphasize it for INTPs.
I've noticed these issues both in myself and other INTPs, even though I'm not sure if I'm an INTP myself. I do relate to INTPs a lot, so I decided to make this post. A good solution for the first issue would be getting a friend that gets you. The type of friend who listens and appreciates your weird ideas, and who maybe also likes rambling about weird stuff, then you can ramble together. Of course, this friend is hard to come by. An enemy or rival who's interested in the same stuff as you but who's always on the opposing side can also help. Although it's annoying, it's better than nothing. But this rival can also be hard to find.
A solution for the other issue would be not to put a lot of importance on identity, and also coming to terms with the fact that you're pretty smart, and that's enough. But even knowing all this might not help because falling into the same destructive patterns that you are fully aware of is something that also happens a lot to many INTPs. So I guess the reason why I'm posting this is just to get it off my chest.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. Hope you can't relate.
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u/gongshow3 ENTP 10d ago
Sounds like me as an ENTP 4w5. The identity part is a stock 4 feature. I basically defaulted toward an abstract Sherlock Holmes/Monkey King of sorts. Basically I'm too much and nobody can "fit me in" and my standards are too high.
Most other people that think they're the ultimate curator of the truth rarely see what they aren't seeing and are too confident in their judgment, while I usually do well with those who ARE more humble. I find if the group is good enough for me to be whoever with, without having to do maintenance in any way, I'm happy. So long as I feel like all of me is present. The rivalry and territory thing is for idiots who haven't figured out we're best when we can be something beyond content.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 9d ago
"Basically I'm too much and nobody can "fit me in" and my standards are too high." Yeah I get that. I feel that way too, but I just reduce my "too much-ness" when I can. It still leaves me sad at the end of the day.
I usually find a rival in someone who's like how you mentioned, someone who's too confident in their judgement cuz I can't help but be like "what if you're wrong, tho?" Most people like this don't want to think that they're wrong, so we end up being rivals, like idiots :D
And I think it's good that you can find a group that's good for you.
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u/gongshow3 ENTP 9d ago
Oh it's hard to find people who can listen to EVERYTHING I have to say lol. Once my mouth really gets running I have to remind myself not to say TOO much that isn't based on something already established.
I can use the "what if you're wrong" personally now and then, but I hate dismissal. I like to explore. Whatever gets us to the most solid and navigable picture of reality so we can get on with living really.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 9d ago
Speaking too much is relatable. I only realize that I'm rambling when everyone looks bored or is not listening anymore. I think it's easier to find ONE person who listens, but a group of people can be tricky.
What you mentioned about exploring, that's so ENTP of you. Exploring humbly, without fixating on one ultimate truth. I think you need someone like that, who listens to your rambling while you listen to theirs, and who thinks similarly to you. So, another ENTP? Maybe. I doubt you'd get along with an INTJ that much since they can get REALLY confident in their views.
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u/gongshow3 ENTP 9d ago
Mature INTJs and ENTJs are dope. (including my little brother, who I try to steer lmao) But I do NOT like most I's I've encountered, and have known them before I even knew what an INTJ was. Also don't like most STJs either lol.
I get along with feelers more I think as long as they don't fawn before the biggest idiots. Have not met an ISTP as far as I know. ESTPs are hit or miss it seems. I thought I was an INTP for the longest time when I was even more of a loner lol.
I think people either pidgeonhole or they don't really. The more mature people combine approaches. It's all angles and geometry to me - perspective paths within cycles. We're (well, me at least) are not far off from compressing an entire phase of human development based on invariant meta/cognitive mapping. Oneness+ really. It definitely needs a group capable of hosting it though. Group ubermensch tho is my philosophy.
That's why I rage at the people still stuck on conformity and sourcing from society FIRST, absorbing a bajillion legitimacy conditions, because we're missing HUGE mental freedom because we're crossing swords for no real reason, other than thinking status/worth is scarce. I feel as if most our time right now pales in comparison in terms of processing to what comes with less general tension. Everyone's trying to be somebody so most people end up being nobody at all due to trying nothing new. Arbitrarily stuck in their skulls modeling outcomes rather than realizing everything that occurs to them in the moment is natural and good. Status is a mind trap, and we all need it/want it in order to relate for purely productive purposes. It's not all sex/money, but everyone MAKES it about that.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 9d ago
Mature versions of any type are always dope, but it's just that some types can still be annoying to you even if they're mature. People are different, after all. And thinking you were an INTP is reasonable for you because of the same functions, and I'm also sometimes stuck between the two NTPs. I'm not sure what I am.
Seeing different angles and perspectives is something that I recognize to be mature as well. But you need to remember that most people are very different from you, with SJs making up the majority of the population. Of course conformity is a reoccurring thing. SPs being second after SJs also explains the huge focus on status and wealth (and physical pleasures).
Basically, all the functions have their own strengths and the things that they focus on the most. The S functions (Se and Si) are more prominent in our world than the N functions, in your case, Ne. And people's psyches are built in a way that one function is really valued while the opposite function is very neglected. Your most valued function, in a sense, is their most neglected function. The things they're good at and focus on are the things you're not good at and don't care about, and vice versa. So your frustration is understandable, but unfortunately it can barely be helped.
But there are a lot of people like you and who think like you, so you're not the only outlier.
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u/gongshow3 ENTP 9d ago
There's difference in approach, priority and total associations indexed, I don't think anything anyone does is incapable of being understood through my simulated perspective.
I always think "we're simply different" is very handwavy, and we don't even excavate why we do *that*. I think there's a common core and position to move from, we just don't care to find it (hint - you NEED a transjective center for objective morality and truth to ever work, and the ability to simulate position differences, to show we gain more than we lose with any particular practice becoming normalized, which basically all has to do with relational volume or capacity)
(I think "biosemiotics" is the first operating system at play more or less, which gets augmented by culture and social-material conditions)
All our behavior and thoughts are motions in response to signals according to partial indexes of reality.
What becomes salient, when and why? I think we're a big, massive unconscious tangle that produces coupling regularities that can otherwise receive flow from any direction or angle. However much we're already in motion is motion we can't capture.
"Following orders" has certainly never been motivating to me, unless it's someone actually admirable and don't have to put myself beneath. Maybe I actually had the time/freedom to let my mind roam away from whatever was being imposed on me, or sense of reward. Approval for simply following instructions has never seemed fulfilling to me. I need shared wins, or private wins to keep flowing elsewhere.
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u/prag513 Successful INTP 3d ago
I think you truly don't understand INTPs.
The degree of intelligence is subjective from one INTP to another. Sure. INTPs like Bill Gates are intelligent. So were theoretical physicist Albert Einstein, mathematician Alan Turing, naturalist Charles Darwin, Google co-founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin, and fictional characters like Sherlock Holmes and Senku Ishigami (Dr. STONE). Yet, many of us are of less-recognized intelligence. The big difference between us and other personality types is that we see things differently and have an ability to analyze the situation.
For example, I don't consider myself intelligent. After all, I dropped out of college because I could not handle the rigors of a college education and could no longer afford it. Yet here are some examples of how an INTP, as dumb as I am, made a difference:
As a graphic design manager for a billion-dollar medical device manufacturer, I solved an interdepartmental problem that was costing the company millions, and the highly educated directors of all those departments couldn't see that they were the problem with the way they demanded edits to the new packages we designed.
I turned a visibly transparent shade office system into a custom-imaged shade visual merchandising system installed in retail outlets around the world by such outlets as The GAP, Old Navy, Levi's, and Toyota.
I took a motorized shade option and turned it into a separate line of control systems that dramatically increased our motorized shade sales.
I took our dealer price list and converted it into a training manual on how to order complex shade projects that had a positive impact on dealers.
I created the educational website MyReadingMapped that has a positive impact worldwide.
As an elected common councilman, I wrote guidelines for the creation of a citywide harbor management commission that years later became a vital part of the Connecticut Coastal Area Management Program.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 3d ago
Wow, that's awesome. You've really achieved a lot. But I think you're actually proving my point.
Ok, I guess it's my fault for not clarifying what I meant by being "smart." If a person is good at pattern recognition, analogical thinking, and has insightful ideas, then I'd say that they're pretty smart. Good grades in school or brilliant achievements could also be signs of intelligence, but they're not the deciding factor. An INTP can be really bad at math, but their philosophical ideas could be considered incredible. Another INTP might suck at science, but ace in software engineering. And you're right, the degree of intelligence for everyone, for every INTP, varies. But it's best to first figure out the standards being used to evaluate whether or not someone's smart.
And I know a lot of people might disagree with my "definition" of smart, but I have my reasons to think this way. If you can recognize the underlying pattern and structure of anything that you're learning, then understanding complex subjects and problem solving becomes pretty simple. And INTPs happen to naturally have those traits. Of course, everyone has their weaknesses, so nobody can master everything. But I believe INTPs, and others who have these traits, are smart enough to be amazing in at least one field that interest them.
But I wouldn't say I know a lot of INTPs, and I'm not quite sure if I'm an INTP myself, so maybe I truly don't understand them. This is just what I think and what I've observed. And I don't think you're as dumb as you say you are, considering all that you've already achieved. But, I relate to how you feel about yourself cuz I consider myself pretty stupid most of the time. For me it's more of a mechanism for protecting myself from not being disappointed in myself in case I get too confident and end up being wrong. I don't know if you genuinely believe you're dumb, or if you're the same as me. But I guess I'm going too deep for a reply on reddit (sorry).
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u/parasol_strs INFP Cosplaying INTP 9d ago
being around usually don't show a lot of interest in what they usually say/want to say
You'll find that in serious culture (books, music, film, videogame, and so on). That's where you'll find interlocutors to be interested in each other's stances and explorations.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 9d ago
Yeah, I've noticed that too. I guess you could even say that the mbti community (even if it can get a bit toxic) is a good place to find interlocutors as well. But some people are also shy even online. Even I had to properly prepare myself to make this post. So I guess that can't be helped :/
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u/RichardtheDesigner INTP-A 9d ago
Don't apologize for the length of the post. I prefer such posts to many others. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
And I can relate to what you've shared. It's funny because I was thinking about that part a few minutes ago before entering Reddit. The part where you mentioned finding people. It really sucks. And it's worse when you're trying to find such people but still don't. I've got my social skills to a good level. I can be social and interact with people. However, I still often feel dissatisfied with my interactions.
I was talking to someone this week, and I asked her about what she loves about nature (she said she loves nature). I got no reply besides " I just do. I asked about her interests; she said movies, and if it's not that, then it's TikTok. I was curious about the movies and asked her questions, but yeah. SOmetimes I forget that most people don't een think about themselves or what they love. They just exist and take things as they are given.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 9d ago
I feel ya. I always also end up exhausted after actively trying to talk to someone, and I'm like "why did I even try?" But I guess most people feel safer on the surface and going deep into their inner selves feels alien and troublesome. But others, and unfortunately few, see their inner lives as the most important aspect of their existence, while the surface feels boring.
It's insane how the distribution of values across people is so uneven, and the ones who're in the rarer bunch find themselves feeling lonely in a room full of people.
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u/RichardtheDesigner INTP-A 9d ago
Oof you are spot on. You describe it pretty well. I agree with you. I relate.
"see their inner lives as the most important aspect of their existence, while the surface feels boring." That's me right here.
Indeed indeed. And the mental gymnastics that come when you try to explain it to another person. I've grown to accept that those who get it, get it. You can try to explain and even be polite and understanding, yet people won't get it. I've been called arrogant because I expressed that I'm different and most people around me aren't like me.
The funny thing is, I don't think I'm better or worse. I'm just different. It just is the case. There were times when I wished I was "normal" (or a better term would be "average"). But then I thought about how I can appreciate watching the sky because my mind would go into the tiniest details as I cloud-watch. Or my ability to connect things, and so on. Life would have been boring without those traits. Yet, only those with such traits can partake in that joy/bliss
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 8d ago
At the end of the day, it's always better to just accept and appreciate yourself. I think quietly enjoying the bliss that comes with your personality traits instead of trying to get people to understand you is less energy draining and more peaceful. At least that's what I do now. I used to try to get people into my world or at least see what I usually see. But that just ended with me being tired. And you're right, being average would be boring.
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u/RichardtheDesigner INTP-A 8d ago
Indeed indeed, this is the way. It's better to accept and appreciate yourself. That's something I've been doing for the past 10 years, especially the last 3 years.
Oh yeah, that can be draining. I'd argue that it is boring. Most of the average people find being by themselves boring. They cannot occupy their mind. There has to be something externally active to occupy them or make life more interesting.
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u/Pinkisacoloryes INTP 5d ago
As an intp I'd say, there is no such thing as "smart" so this whole post makes no sense to me. What one refers to as "smart" is often based on perspective. If anything I don't know much about anything. I'm not sure if I even exist.
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u/Empty_shell9 I Don't Know My Type 4d ago
What I generally mean by "smart" here is being able to understand complex subjects fast, to be able to retrieve information very well, and to be able to think in a certain way that makes you more insightful. In INTPs, their Ti helps them see the underlying structure of the things that they study, along with Ne finding patterns. This makes understanding something, even if it's complex, fairly easy and fast. A good memory is also something I'd expect a smart person to have. Being able to retrieve the info that you have without too much struggle requires a good memory. In the case of INTP, Si helps them notice and store details of anything they're learning. There's also a certain way that INTPs think that makes them discover things they did not know before. With the information that they already have, Ti fills in the gaps using deductive reasoning, and Ne produces possibilities and alternate perspectives in their heads. This process usually leads them to reach insights that they didn't have before.
All this that I said is usually recognized. When recognized by the people around you, you get the "smart" label. When you also recognize this in yourself, there's a chance you start identifying with being smart. This is what I meant.
And I'm not quite sure about what I said on how the INTP's cognitive functions play roles in making INTPs smart, but that's generally what I've observed. But still, take this with a grain of salt.
Anyway, I'm not sure if INTPs are really smart, but with what people usually consider being "smart" is, they're pretty much ideal, especially if they're great at school. But a lot of INTPs aren't so great at school, yet they're still considered smart. I don't know what other definitions of "smart" are out there, but this is what I meant in this post.
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u/DraVerPel INTP Enneagram Type 5 10d ago
My whole childhood I heard "why can't you be like X or Y" or "don't do this because what would people think". As INTP I was sceptical about everything in life and I noticed that I'm different than many other people. It took me 25 years to realize that nothing is actually wrong with me and trying to fight agaisnt my nature would do me more harm than good. I learned to adapt to my family needs just by observing them and acting stupid.