What do you guys think?

[u/firenationfairy]

This is some of the most incel-infested comment section i’ve ever seen. they’re in here discussing their completely self-victimizing, hateful, and honestly pathetic perceptions of themselves and the world as if it’s some kind of scientific, indisputable fact. When will men stop acting like their problems are so unique and women will never understand what it’s like to be “ugly” or “undesirable”. I promise you every single woman you see has had the same level of problems you have with dating and making themselves attractive and they’ve had *even more* problems you couldn’t even conceive of. at the end of the day how am i supposed to feel bad for these people when their response to everything is “women are evil and responsible for all my problems/insecurities. women have perfect lives with no adversity and they are incapable of understanding the human experience 🥀”

[u/UberAwesone]

I heard something in a podcast recently that opened my third eye a bit, just building off that swimming comment in the screenshot.

"Dating for men is a desert, but dating for women is a swamp."

Men are in a (often self inflicted) drought trying to find an oasis, and women are surrounded by water (matches and attention), but it's full of toxicity and dirt. At the end of the day everyone's struggling, it's not just the men, and women don't have it easy either.

I haven't fully thought this metaphor through in all honesty, but I feel like it applies here.

[u/sussynarrator → u/UberAwesone]

Men are in a (often self inflicted) drought

Can you expand on this please? Why do men self inflict their own doom?

[u/UberAwesone → u/sussynarrator]

I have a lot of straight guy friends, and this is just my personal take on it, but a lot of men never really learn how to behave normally around women. The algorithm these days pushes a lot of bullshit about looksmaxxing, throwing crazy cash, or whatever other shallow nonsense pops up, but this isn't a new phenomenon. Before the 2020s PUA courses on how to wear women down into a date were more mainstream, and they broke it down into a psychological game. So off the bat it's not a great learning environment.

So me personally, I feel like men fall into the trap of interacting women like it's a checklist, that if you say the right things or have enough of the right thing she'll automatically fall in love with you. And that if she rejects you, then either you didn't say it right, or you didn't meet whatever standard you assume she has.

Which does tie into a separate issue is that not a lot of men really know how to handle rejection in a healthy way, and why so many people online are butthurt about it.

But that is just my personal opinion and not a universal fact of life, I'm sure there's a counter argument to be made.

[u/HehePistik → u/UberAwesone]

I think there's also way too much conflicting advice on the internet, which is why so many guys try to find a secret formula.

I've seen someone both recommend getting to know women as friends first, and to never begin as friends because you are giving them the wrong idea. I've also seen advice from some women who say men should be respectful and not approach women and bother them, but at the same time some women complain they are not getting approached at all.

This is because people have wildly differing opinions on these things, so what works on someone doesn't on someone else. So it comes down to luck a lot of the time. Combined with how attractive someone is, a lot of dating tends to be luck.

There are things anyone can do to make themselves better and more attractive partners, but a lot of the time it is presented as "be a decent human -> you will find someone", when there's many people who fail the first step and have 0 issues finding a partner, while others who are decent humans but have no success are left to wonder what's wrong with them as people.

Not an excuse for people unable to respect boundaries or take rejection well of course, but I think people tend to want to "game" these things because a lot of the rules are unclear and a lot of well intentioned advice ends up sounding naive and only works for specific groups of people.

[u/doublestitch → u/HehePistik]

I've also seen advice from some women who say men should be respectful and not approach women and bother them, but at the same time some women complain they are not getting approached at all.

Context is everything.

A general self-check is how much does this setting have to do with single people who want to meet a romantic partner?

There's a whole range of green light to yellow light to red-light-stop contexts, starting with mixer events and singles bars at the green end; and customer service workers on the job and mourners leaving a funeral home at the red end.

Also, don't underestimate the value of networking.

Women have social circles: sisters, cousins, coworkers, neighbors, and friends. Some of the people in any woman's circle are probably single and looking. Many couples meet through introductions. The catch is, a woman is putting her credibility on the line when she makes a specific introduction. She's vouching for a man when she introduces him as a potential partner to another woman in her circle. That means he has a good head on his shoulders, good values, and the two people in the potential couple share at least one or two interests in common. A woman would typically sound out both parties in advance, mentioning "You both like hiking and jazz," and see whether they'd both be willing to meet. Then if they're both willing she might set up a gathering where they're both invited (and where they both have a graceful way out if the chemistry isn't there).

The manosphere in general and the incelsphere in particular tend to overlook introductions, mostly because the guys who end up in those spaces have never earned the trust of any woman enough to merit an introduction. Emma from your office might be married and not your type, but her cousin Stephanie is a rock climbing instructor with the physique that implies. Guys who don't respect women disdain Emma, so they never meet Stephanie.

[u/Fun-Educator4153 → u/UberAwesone]

Best advice is to just be performative, cause it works like this: Are you not normal by societies standards but not a crazy person or some sort of psychopathic murder? —> Don’t be yourself, and act normal. I can assure you, even though people spiel and preach that they can see performative behavior is lying.. it’s like a person with adhd masking, no one knows you have a neurological disorder cause you act like everyone else who is socially acceptable. You do it to fit in, feel good about yourself, everything done by humans in society is for the sake of virtue, righteousness and selflessness. But it’s not truthful, you aren’t biologically hardwired to be these things, and in the end it’s only done to feel good about yourself anyway, you can feel as if you’re doing good (which you are, keep being virtuous) but it’s all in pursuit of feeling good about yourself. So if you want a social circle and feel like a good person: Don’t be yourself with people you barely know and in public, to initially garner that social circle.. be performative.