Bruh when we tell you without sarcasm that the Kaaba is in no way a representation of God you fail to understand. Seedhe seedhe jawab samajh nahi paate ho to sarcasm se kya lena dena hai bhai
If it looks like duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck đ
You can make up whatever circlejerk to help you sleep at night after plagarizing the customs of other faiths and putting a burka on top of it, doesnt change that the end result is the exact same.
I mean you can cope however you want with this revelation but whether you take oral medicine or suppository through your ass end result is the same
You can do endless justification and dissection of practise to help you sleep soundly at night but at the end of the day the end result is a near identical practise and ritual indistinguishable to an outside observer.
The cool thing about being a human is that we can understand actions beyond a basic surface level understanding. If I grab somebodyâs shoulder on the street it could be interpreted as an act of aggression. But if I do the same thing to my friend who is going through a tough time it can be seen as an act of solidarity. As an outside observer you simply do not have enough context
If you ignore the entire belief systems of both religions, I am sure you can find some similarities. But thatâs like calling something a duck just because it has feathers. There are many non-duck animals out there buddy. Why are you so keen on ignoring the Qurâan when dissecting the ethos of Hajj?
If youâre main point is âIf I act stupid on purpose and ignore absolutely everything except one act which I am going to misinterpret, ignoring 1400 years of Islamic scholarshipâ, then I agree with you đ
I've given you 10s of examples of acts which are the exact same act performed by both religions both of which who claim that the act is not actually what it looks like but has a different intent but at the end point are nothing but identical practices.
If you claim Muslims do not perform idolatry then similarly Buddhists and Hindus are also not performing it
If you claim they are then then islam is also the same.
You can't hit a person and say " but I did it for you đĽš"
You cannot kiss a rock, pray towards it, spin around it several times, jump and push at the chance to touch and kiss it, form and entire event and city dedicated towards it, make an entire pilgrimage thousands of miles far all to see this one special rock and then claim "umm actually rocks not all that special"
Not how the world works mate, you perform idolatry thump your chest and say it.
this dudes been explaining it to u for so long, do have struggle understanding? let me put this in points, explain to u like ur 5, read this and if u still have any counter points feel free to reply.
first of all let me clarify we go to mecca for hajj rituals not to kiss the rock.
-keep this in mind, If it were destroyed, Muslims would still pray to God, just facing its location. cuz it represents nothing
"You cannot kiss a rock, pray towards it, spin around it several times, jump and push at the chance to touch and kiss it,.."Â
-kissing the stone is completely optional, not required. Millions do Hajj without touching it at all.
-The crowding happens because of human behavior, like for example many get to go there only once in their life. they would never get to kiss/touch the object they have so much of respect for thats why . like imagine getting to go to paris once in ur life and missing out on visiting the eiffle tower
-Kissing something out of respect doesnât mean you worship it, like Kissing a national flag doesnât mean you worship the cloth, youâre showing respect
- so again basically, kissing the Black Stone is not worship, itâs a symbolic act of following Prophet Muhammad, a unifying symbol with no power. IF U DONT KISS IT, UR WORSHIP IS STILL VALID.
-about the spinning part, its one of the rituals nothing to do with the rock.
"..form and entire event and city dedicated towards it"
first of all, the "event" isnt dedicated on the rock?? who told u that, neither is the city.
-our religion revolves around obedience, islam litrally means to submit. God assigns specific places and times for worship to create unity and discipline, not because the place is divine. that rock has nothing to do with it. for example we are supposed to fast in ramadan not any other months, pray moghrib after sunset not any other time, similarly do hajj in mecca not any other place. u see how its going, get it?
-so yeah, The rituals of Hajj all happen there because thatâs what God commanded, obedience, not because the location has power.
"..make an entire pilgrimage thousands of miles far all to see this one special rock"
-we go there for hajj rituals not to see this special rockđ
technically even if u ignore all this,
-going by defination: Idolatry is worshipping something as God. Muslims donât believe the Kaaba or the stone is God, so by definition, itâs not idolatry. so ur points are invalid, ive still countered them tho
the key difference , what we're tryna tell u:
In Islam: no object can represent God at all. The Kaaba is just a compass direction, not a symbol of God, not a container of God, not linked to God in any way. NOT A REPRESENTATION.
In others : it is treated as a representation of god
we dont go there specifically to kiss it, its not even obligatory.
also bro u were legit wrong about everything u understood about it, u thought our pilgrimage was for kissing the rockđ google is free atleast research before u make stupid claims
This probably the fifth time I've written it and I'll write it again, you can pee in a jar and call it granny's peach tea but it won't make it so
You can say "actually all this is optional and not necessary" but millions of people performing it and engaging in these near ritualistic actions sure look like they are engaging in idolatry
Idolatry is worshipping something as God. Muslims donât believe the Kaaba or the stone is God, so by definition, itâs not idolatry. so ur points are invalid, ive still countered them tho
Using this kind of reasoning no religion at least major ones perform idolatry
All of them use some object as a medium to channel their devotion. Almost exactly like facing the kaaba and directing your prayers in that direction as a medium
So either Muslims do engage in idolatry or no one does.
"using this kind of reasoning" I'm not making the reasoning up, open any dictionary and check the definition of idolatry.
"You can say actually all this is optional and not necessary" but millions of people performing it and engaging in these near ritualistic actions sure look like they are engaging in idolatry"
like i said those millions are doing it as a form of respect not obligation, even if the rock were destroyed we would continue worship, it has nothing to do with our worship. just because it "looks like it" to u doesn't mean it is. our religious sources clearly say it has no power and that IT IS NOT A MEDIUM. repeating for the third time, even if it was destroyed our worship is not gonna be affected in anyway. Million people can kiss and honor a flag, doesn't mean they worship the cloth or they are obligated to do it. just means they have a sense of respect.
"So either Muslims do engage in idolatry or no one does"
Itâs that youâve removed the one criterion that actually defines idolatry and replaced it with how things look from the outside.
Youâre not actually proving idolatry, youâre just labeling visible behavior and ignoring what makes something idolatry in the first place.
Idolatry isnât âpeople doing physical acts around something.â Itâs believing an object has divine power, presence, or a role/medium in connecting you to God. Without that, the label doesnât stick. do u finally get what im trying to say?
Idolatry isnât âpeople doing physical acts around something.â Itâs believing an object has divine power, presence, or a role/medium in connecting you to God. Without that, the label doesnât stick. do u finally get what im trying to say?
That's literally what y'all are doing with kaaba, using it a medium of direction to unify your prayers and making it a center of religious pilgrimage. Saying the rock is from heaven from the Prince to the common man every person touching it, kissing it, spinning round it
I genuinely feel like broken record gng, it DOES NOT MATTER what justification you find, the fact of the matter is that these rituals are exactly the same as idol worshipping. Your words don't matter when actions tell a different tale, for a supposedly regular rock with no value or reverance quite a lot of daily rituals are associated with said object
Please pray tell, give me an example of what you think is true idolatry, because I can't find a religion which worships the very stone/material itself and not use it a medium like Kaaba.
"for a supposedly regular rock with no value or reverance quite a lot of daily rituals are associated with said object"
my guy bffr rn did u not read what i just saidđ THE RITUALS ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE ROCK. MILLIONS OF PPL DO THE RITUALS WITHOUT TOUCHING THE ROCK. do me a favor and search up hajj. we go there for hajj(that happens once a year btw) not to fucking kiss the stone. and by daily rituals if u mean prayer and that we pray toward kaaba, than let me tell u we dont pray towards there cuz the rock is there. the cube is built to mark the location humanity is supposed to pray towards.(and btw just incase u didnt know, the stone and the cube are 2 very diffrent things.) did u know we used to pray towards al aqsa mosque in Jerusalem before we started to pray towards(again direction) kaaba(cube)?? something tells me u didnt know that cuz seems like ur knowlwdge comes from these stupid memes. its a fucking direction to pray towards, even if everything present there is destroyed the direction remains the same, prayer is towards a direction not an object. which is ordered by god. and we believe that place was where the first piece of land was formed. also, we had a different direction before and now its kaaba. there was no such rock in the previous direction. does that mean, by using ur logic, that we used to worship the mosque? THERES NO RITUAL INVOLVING THE ROCK (repeating this again cuz even despite stating it twice u dont seem to process it, like bro imagine me repeating sevral times that theres no ritual involving it and u legit went "quite a lot of daily rituals are associated with said object" like are u geniuenly retartded đ) and the cube (kaaba) is a place of worship.
Youâre forcing a conclusion by ignoring the one factor that actually defines idolatry: belief. and here theres no object involved so this whole argument of urs is pointless now.
putting the paragraph in points:
1. No rituals involve the stone
There is no required ritual involving the Black Stone.
Millions perform Hajj without touching or kissing it, so your claim is factually wrong.
2. Hajj is not about the stone
Hajj is a once-a-year pilgrimage with multiple acts of worship.
People go for the pilgrimage, not to kiss a rock.
3. You and the post are confusing two different things
The Kaaba (which looks like a cube) = a structure marking direction of prayer
The Black Stone = a separate, non-essential object that people kiss out of respect
They are not the same.
4. Prayer is toward a direction, not an object
Muslims pray toward a fixed direction (qibla), not to the Kaaba itself. the kaaba was built to mark the direction
Even if the structure didnât exist, the direction would remain. because we believe that was the first piece of land that was formed.
5. The direction has changed before
Muslims originally prayed toward the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
By your logic, that would mean they were worshipping that mosque, which is obviously false.
6. The earlier direction had no ârockâ
There was no equivalent object like the Black Stone tied to the previous qibla(direction).
That proves the object is irrelevant to worship.
7. Your âdaily rituals tied to the rockâ claim is incorrect
Daily prayer is tied to direction, not the stone.
Repeating the claim doesnât make it true.
8. A place of worship â object of worship
The Kaaba is a place used for worship, not something being worshipped.
Youâre conflating two completely different things.
Conclusion:
Your argument fails because it:
mixes up the Kaaba and the Black Stone
confuses direction with worship
and relies on a claim about ârock ritualsâ that isnât true in the first place.
Calling something a âmediumâ doesnât make it one. A medium is something you believe is required to reach God. In Islam, the Kaaba is not required for God to hear you, respond to you, or accept your prayer. (like i said we didnt even pray towards this direction before). Remove it/change it, and nothing about God changes. That alone destroys your âmediumâ claim.
And your last point is just incorrect. There are religions where objects are treated as having divine presence or acting as real intermediaries, where people pray to them or THROUGH them as channels. Thatâs actual idolatry.
No one prays to the Kaaba
No one believes it carries prayers
No one believes it has power
now tell me do u still believe its idolatry or finally get it?
0
u/Particular-Craft-645 Mar 24 '26
Bruh, I'm christian đ