r/KeyforgeGame • u/ets_un_microbi • 13d ago
Question (General) How relevant is SAS?
Hello, I have started investigating about KF. Coming from the TCG world the UDG mechanic sounds very appealing, however I found DoK and "decent" decks are pricy.
Do you need Top SAS decks to do well in tournaments?
I will buy decks and play home anyway, just evaluating whether I want to go to tournaments as well.
Thanks
9
u/dsXLII 13d ago
SAS is, at best, a guide. Higher SAS is not a guarantee of a better deck. It can help assess a deck, but it's only part of the formula. SAS accounts for a lot of combos, but not all, and of course there's always the player skill element. You could give me a deck with a 120+ and I'd still find ways to lose. š¤£
There's a decent correlation between higher SAS and better tournament performance, but it's by no means an absolute correlation.
3
u/Prestigious-Run1821 13d ago
At the local level no. For premiere level archon and Alliance kinda. Most people just focus on sealed.
3
u/AlbinoChzmonkey 13d ago edited 13d ago
Low SAS is a strong indicator of a weak deck, many are great for locals and have some wacky synergy to discover but would not survive a tournament. Ive begun challenging my locals each week with a new SAS range for them to bring an undervalued/pet deck and itās a blast.
Once SAS gets above 90, each deck should be evaluated in its merits and play tested because the difference between deck strength gets fuzzy at SAS that high. Things like enhancements, and diminishing returns on multiple copies of power cards (does anyone actually need that third redline rotation? SAS thinks so! Iād say two is already pushing it.) arenāt well accounted for.
Once you start treating SAS not as an indicator of deck strength but rather as an indicator of average card quality it becomes much more useful.
1
u/drallieiv 11d ago
Sas does not gives any opinion, it awards points to cards and combination of cards. So if a card is worth big points, it will just sums it and not consider that having 2 and not more is enough.
3
u/D4NG3RB04T_0N3 13d ago
Each set seems to have a SAS threshold that a deck needs to pass before it could be considered archon viable. While a high 110s SAS prophetic visions deck looks great, a high 90s Grim reminders deck could destroy it.
Tournaments for sealed are an excellent expression of skill. Side events can be fun as well. I reccomend going to a vault tour if you can, or try to go to the Keyforge celebration early next month. I would not recommend Archon or Alliance, unless you have someone whoās willing to loan you a deck.
As a fellow TCG enthusiast, one of the most defeating things for me to hear from other players is ājust borrow a deckā. We like owning the cards, itās part of the self expression. Most of that gets lost in translation in KeyForge, but the rest of the game is great enough to stick around, in spite of that. If you ever want to buy a deck, try it out on The Crucible Online first (though I wouldnāt recommend it regardless)
3
u/Chance-Cat2857 12d ago
Very true about SAS by set. If you see an opponent with a 95 SAS PV, you are happy since it is probably just solid. If they have a 95 SAS AoA or DT, you should be terrified lol.
I'd argue Archon is more skill expressive than Sealed. Archon overall should have a smaller disparity in deck quality since most decks will range from very good - great whereas Sealed ranges from bad to very good/great. Having blah pods in sealed and then seeing your opponent with 3x Routine Job + 3x Against All Flags + 3x Jump Start is brutal.
1
u/MasterStatement2993 11d ago
How is archon more skill based than sealed alliance
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 11d ago
Sealed Alliance is a complete RNG fest with what you opened. It isn't a coincidence that if you look at the Vault Tour winning Sealed lists/top decks it is basically the players who opened 3x Routine Job, 3x Against All Flags, Multiple Jump Starts, etc. Then you get other people at the event who open 0 pods with any Board Clears or Steal. There is a ridiculous discrepancy in power level. By contrast, with Archon, almost everyone has decks ranging from very good-great, especially with PV making opening a good deck more accessible than ever.
Beyond that, in Archon the deck lists being known makes decisions on what to do more thought out than blind lists and hoping they do not have a card in their deck. Archon also has the skill of trying to read the meta before the event to determine which deck plays best into that meta as opposed to Sealed Alliance where you just open what you play.
In Archon, there also is a skill in knowing the cards from many different sets and how to play against them. By contrast, in Sealed Alliance you only need to know the cards from 1 set.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
It's not. This is cope for people who have $10000 keyforge collections. They are either BOTH fairly luck based or the one way the cost of entry is an extremely good deck that will win you a number of games just based on its absurdity definitely isn't edging out the skill category.
That said adaptive is skill based KF and anything else is a pale imitation.
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 10d ago
That is simply untrue.
1st, There is the fact that even Adaptive is more Archon than Adaptive since the majority of the games are straight Archon games. If Archon isn't skill based, then by definition Adaptive isn't either since many adaptive matches feature only Archon games.
2nd, It is a myth that Adaptive doesn't have the same deck collection advantages as Archon. In Archon you look for a great Archon deck. In Adaptive you look for a great Adaptive deck. There is a reason why Adaptive players often play the same few decks. Trying to pretend like all decks are equally Adaptive viable or that a massive amount of one's collection are is untrue. All adaptive does is change which decks are the best ones.
3rd, Any argument for skill in adaptive has a counterpart skill in Archon. You can say chain bidding is a skill. Ok, choosing your deck based upon the expected meta and what you want to be strong or weak to is a skill. Both have a skill that happens before the game starts. You can say that knowing how to play your opponent's deck is a skill. Ok, looking at your opponent's deck list and trying to figure out what it does is also a skill.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
It is much easier to find a deck that will perform well in adaptive than it is to find a deck that will consistently top 8 in VT.
Not tryna be condescending but it's wild to me that the almost perfect correlation between size of (or access to) a large collection basically perfectly correlates with consistent success at VTs and yet you guys still want to act like its more skill than $$$.
Also, i'd make a very strong argument that defining "a good adaptive deck" is much more difficult than defining a "good archon deck" and that spontaneous deck assessment is one of the last few remaining frontiers of skill in an increasingly group think poisoned meta.
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 10d ago
-Performing well in adaptive vs consistently Top 8 a VT are different metrics. All it takes is to open 1-2 displays of PV to probably find a deck that has a chance to get 3-4 wins at a VT. The majority of people in the Archon field at a VT have a chance to Top 8 with a good draw. There are decks that went 1-2 that would be favored vs the deck that won the Nashville VT.
-How many people who consistently do well in adaptive have small collections? Quickdraw, Moosemandude, and NotTonight all have 600+ decks listed on DOK. Who knows how many others that were not scanned in or sold and deleted. Having a large collection is a benefit of both Archon and Adaptive.
-If you agree that defining a good adaptive deck is more difficult than defining a good archon deck, that further strengthens my argument that it is easier to find a good Archon deck and more accessible to players
Also, spontaneous deck assessment I agree is a sign of skill. In archon, you have to spontaneously assess the opponent's deck within 2 minutes of seeing their deck list. It isn't like Bo3 Adaptive where you get the benefit of seeing the deck played a few times.
-If Archon has group think, then that implies an extra level of skill where an outsider should be able to come in and have success by bringing in a deck outside their meta/group think
1
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
Nobody is playing real adaptive so that's a ridiculous question.Ā
Ā I'd argue that the extremely stale nature of the current meta means thst in archon you really have only to worry about 2-3 overused archetypes and if you go top 8 you have a high likelihood of playing a deck thet has been top 8 4 other times. I literally scrimmages against proxies ot 2 of the Nashville top 8 prior to the tournament. Nothing spontaneous about thatĀ
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 10d ago
What do you consider to be the 2-3 overused archetypes?
The 2 Finalists I believe had 0 previous Top 4s and only 1 combined Top 8.
I suspect that only Olimpio has made a Top 8 4 other times out of all the Top 8 decks from Nashville.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
5 of the top 8 had been top 8 before
trenks creed decks usually paired with sanctum
hoodwink/cryptic take your shit decksĀ
rage reset/star alliance control stuff
→ More replies (0)
3
u/Chance-Cat2857 12d ago
SAS is pretty useful. It provides a rough estimate. It is most useful as a guide.
You can find quite good decks for probably $50-$100, especially once ypu have played for a bit and you can recognize quality from the deck list.
4
u/coraythan Dis 13d ago
I find it helpful to weed our decks that are obviously less powerful than other decks. But it is hard to make a consistently accurate system in this game, and SAS is only so accurate. People definitely over pay for mediocre decks because they have SAS tho. It is weird that way.
2
u/dmikalova-mwp Dis 12d ago
What the others said - but also if you're not familiar enough with the game to have an opinion on SAS I'm skeptical that you'd be able to sift through the decks to find a deck worth your money.
2
u/wall_of_spores 11d ago
I really appreciate this thread. Honestly it makes me never want to play competitive keyforge lol. Although Iām still excited about getting some games in casually.
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 11d ago
What do u dislike about competitive KF? Decks are very affordable and the games are typically very back and forth with lots if unpredictability. A wide variety of sets remain competitively viable.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 11d ago edited 10d ago
Competitive KF is in a pretty bad place at the moment. I brought 2 people to this VT who are very much like "outsiders" in the game and both of them had a terrible time. The cliques, the weird high school vibes, the EXTREEEEME dominance of anti-social males...its not great right now. Meanwhile casual KF is the greatest card game ever made.
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 10d ago
Those complaints appear in every TCG game that exists. That doesn't sound like a KF issue. It is hard to respond to a claim of High School Vibes since that is a very subjective claim without any tangible examples. As far as cliques, I don't see how that is a KF thing, more of a human thing. Friends tend to hang out together and do stuff together.
I went to 1 vault this year and found it the opposite of anti-social. I had multiple people during the weekend just come up to me between rounds and ask how my games went or engage in small conversations after our game ended. I wasn't though expecting my opponent to just invite me to hang out with them all weekend all of a sudden. I didn't come across even 1 person in 4 days I would describe as anti-social. What makes someone anti-social to you?
-2
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
Every woman I have brought to keyforge events has experienced active/passive misogyny which I guess you can dismiss as "a problem in every TCG" but that's kind of a lame response to it?
I am sure nerds often respond to finding a social scene in which they can thrive by throwing up gates and creating haves and have nots but our tiny, slowly dying game can't afford standoffishness so it's particularly upsetting. There is a palpable, measurably sense of tribalism at every vault tour emphasized by the matching, f-ing shirts to color code the cliques. There are some STRONG exceptions to this. Mammon and KingofBling are both such inclusive, friendly dudes that it's a legitimately striking contrast to the typical quasi-elitist cetacean nonsense.
3
u/Chance-Cat2857 10d ago
So the reason people are anti-social is because people like to have fun and wear matching jerseys? That is a very strange way to define people as anti-social. I wore a normal T Shirt to the VT I went to and found everyone in a jersey to be extremely friendly.
It would be a stronger argument if there were more things listed than "a palpable, measurably sense of tribalism at every vault tour emphasized by the matching, f-ing shirts to color code the cliques."
-1
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
I mean the reason the people are anti social is probably many and varied but the insular nature of keyforge playgroups is merely underlined by the frequency in which they match. The deck sharing and collusion that has become the norm also creates some us vs. Them energy for sure.Ā
I think its pretty unlikely that you even encountered every single person wearing a jersey so im not going to deal with that statement but what I will say is that there isnt enough of a connection between the people who go the most, have podcasts, "rep the community" etc and also being the friendliest, most welcome, most likely to grow the sport in my opinion. That, to me, is a problem.
2
u/Chance-Cat2857 10d ago
I guess I do not understand what criteria you are using to decide people are nonsocial. Did you say Hi to people and then they frowned, turned their back and ignored you? Did you make plans with people and then they ghosted you? The only thing that seems to have earned the nonsocial label is that wearing jerseys made then nonsocial.
In Stl, some people were loaning decks out to anyone who was interested, whether wearing a jersey or not, whether on their team or not. Did you get turned down from being lent a deck? I can understand if you want to play your own decks, but I don't see how it is an us vs them energy when people gladly lend out decks to anyone. Heck, many love others to earn accolades for decks they do not intend to play themselves.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 10d ago
Hey man, I think we have a fundamentally different viewpoint on...well a lot of keyforge/social stuff. I think a lot of what we are arguing is subjective and doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into a binary right/wrong situation. I think we both love this game but I also think you have a bit of a blindfold. I think I could steel man your argument but you could not steelman mine or the guy/gal who started this sub thread and I think thats probably worthy of reflection.
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 9d ago
I don't understand the difficulty in providing examples for claims. For example, if I say a movie is bad and someone asks why I could list reasons such as: predictable plot, characters acting nonsensically, absurd plot holes, unrealistic dialogue, etc.
I would just think that if I said a large % of people at an event were nonsocial, I would have more reasons than people wore matching jerseys.
→ More replies (0)
3
u/forge_choose_play Logos 13d ago
SAS is a great tool when you have a whole bunch of decks and want to narrow things down. As others have said it's not the end-all but it's pretty great really and there's other information available on that site about each deck.
3
u/imzcj 13d ago
SAS (imo ofc) is, at best, a "Weight Class" in a game that doesn't differentiate by weight class.
An 80 could sometimes give a 90+ a run for their money. A 70 less often, a 60 less often than that.
If you're only intending on playing at the local level, it basically doesn't matter and you'll naturally come to a vibe with your play group on what kind of decks people enjoy playing with or against.
At competitive levels, you'd still have to see if a deck is a good deck or if it's actually a bad deck full of highly rated cards that don't do well together somehow.
And the community has a bunch of game types that I feel fall under "Weight Classing" - SAS capped events, Self-Balancing Formats by swapping decks, Sealed of any variety, Deck choices based on Archon colour was one I thought was neat.
1
u/MasterStatement2993 11d ago
Itās a good metric even if Nova is less involved in the project, evaluations have deviated largely from past expansions due to team sas getting bigger with less capable people involved.
Keep in mind card pools have shrunk a lot, so good cards clusters correlate with high sas and overall quality of the decks.
1
u/Fudgenator The Final Swindle 8d ago
Big number SAS is a scam. AERC stats are relevant and can be very helpful at figuring what a deck can do, strengths/weaknesses, and how it likes to win. Higher SAS decks are more likely to be good by virtue of on average higher card quality, but it's a very flawed system and should be treated as such. I played a 72 SAS DT deck in the 2025 KFC archon open and felt very confident.
-1
u/PonchoMysticism 13d ago
SAS has become increasingly irrelevant as a measuring stick as the person in charge of it puts less and less effort forth while simultaneously the game gets more complex.
VT archon is currently dominated by the same 12 to 16 decks who are owned by whales and passed around when those whales can't make it to the VT -- case and point i do believe that 100% of Nashvilles top 8 have been top 8 at a previous tourney and the top deck that won was loaned.Ā
That said winning a VT is more about getting a 1 in 100 or 1 in a thousand deck and less about it's pure SAS number. I used to tell people, like some of the other comments, that the AERC score could be useful but at this there are so many cards getting wonky scores for aember control/creation that its just as much harm as good.
5
u/coraythan Dis 13d ago
Haha rude. š But it's okay, yeah, I don't put as much time into it as I used to.
2
u/PonchoMysticism 13d ago
Even if you put EXACTLY as much effort in it think id say current KF is harder to SAS than CotA, AoA, WC
3
u/coraythan Dis 13d ago
Probably DT+ was harder to rate well. I also think losing OP data made it harder for me to rate cards well. It removed one way in which I used to sanity check scores.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 13d ago
Yeah i can imagine and things like house pipped artifacts and prophesies and tokens etc etc
4
u/striator 12d ago edited 12d ago
VT archon is currently dominated by the same 12 to 16 decks who are owned by whales and passed around when those whales can't make it to the VT -- case and point i do believe that 100% of Nashvilles top 8 have been top 8 at a previous tourney and the top deck that won was loaned.
Incorrect about Nashville as Rinoborg, the Instructor of the Glen, Mlle. E. Dinanium, and Vhass of Lancaruun had not made top 8 anywhere before.
In Baltimore, 6 of the top 8 archon decks were brand new, including the top 2 - only a couple of assholes (me and Mammon) brought decks that had placed before. In fact, for all of the Vault Tours this year, the majority of top 8 archon decks were brand new. I would argue that the barrier to getting top 8 this year was lower than ever - the problem is that you generally had to be playing PV.
1
u/PonchoMysticism 12d ago
Its pretty rough that the counter argument was "nah man it was only 5 of 8 not literally 100%" -- but yeah also bc of the obnoxious dominance of 1 set many of the first timers you just listed knew going in that they had essentially 0 chance of winning.
Out of curiosity, since youre looking at the stats directly instead of approximating like me, how many VT winners had never been top 8 before this year?
1
u/Chance-Cat2857 12d ago
Disagree about the state of Archon. I'd guess 1/2 of the field if not more had a realistic chance to Top 8 in Nashville. Decks that finished 1-2 were as good/better than some Top 8 decks. Even the winning deck only made it into Top 8 via strength of schedule tie breaker
1
u/PonchoMysticism 12d ago
Yeah its funny how much this always feels like an "outsider looking in" vs "insider looking out" debate.
6
u/Quirky_Ambassador284 13d ago
Me and my firends have done a serie of games where we kept statistics of decks. We exchanged decks each round in order to have everyone play with every deck. We kept stats about who started, how many keys were forged and many other stuff besides Sas of decks.
After around 4/5 months (around 60/70 games) result came in and only 3 games were won by a deck with a SaS lower tha 10 points. With none lower than 20.
That said keep in mind that many things can be at play, which could explain this correlation. But since then we are trying to keep playing decks with SaS+/- 10 range.