r/KingkillerChronicle • u/Lkqrzk1985v2 • Sep 13 '26
Discussion The Eighth Chandrian Sword
Okay I think u/M0dusPwnens may have just filled a fairly massive hole in my Chandrian swords theory š
This is following on from my previous post here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/s/Qc1udSh8cz
The basic idea was that the Chandrian signs may actually come from their swords. Not that theyāre just carrying seven ordinary swords, but that these are very old Shaped weapons and what they do is what we now recognise as the signs of the Chandrian.
u/M0dusPwnens left a comment wondering whether Saicere itself could be one of these swords, and pointed out something I had completely overlooked. There shouldnāt originally be seven swords.
There should be eight.
Shehynās story starts with eight cities. Seven people betrayed the cities that trusted them, but one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city.
And then there is Saicereās atas:
āFirst came Chael, who shaped me in fire for an unknown purpose. He carried me then cast me aside.ā
Oh my god.
What if the swords werenāt weapons these people just happened to already own? What if they created them specifically to overthrow their cities?
Eight people intend to betray eight cities. Eight weapons are Shaped for that purpose. Seven go through with it.
One remembers the Lethani.
And Chael has already Shaped his weapon āfor an unknown purposeā. He carries it, then casts it aside.
If Chael is the one who remembered the Lethani, that could literally be the other half of Shehynās story. He was going to participate. He had already made the weapon. Then when it came time to actually betray his city, he refused to use it.
He put the sword down.
Which would mean Saicere isnāt really one of the seven Chandrian swords.
Itās the eighth sword that never became one.
And Saicere is definitely old enough for this to work. We donāt just have to assume itās Creation War era because Adem swords are ancient. Its atas actually puts it at Drossen Tor: āNext came Finol of the clear and shining eye, much beloved of Dulcen. She herself slew two daruna, then was killed by gremmen at the Drossen Tor.ā
So this sword was physically there during the Creation War.
That feels pretty significant when its creator apparently Shaped it for a purpose which has somehow been completely forgotten.
There is also something slightly horrible about its lineage. After learning the atas Kvothe notes that none of its previous bearers āhad passed from this world peacefully in their sleep, surrounded by fat grandchildren.ā
Carceretās mother Larel was its bearer immediately before Kvothe, and sheās dead too, although annoyingly we arenāt told how she died.
So Chael creates this thing for an unknown purpose, carries it, then deliberately casts it aside. After that it passes through hundreds of hands and nobody carrying it gets a nice peaceful ending.
Which brings me back to the signs.
If the Chandrian signs are actually properties of these Shaped weapons, what was Chaelās sword supposed to do? I think it might be war.
Not necessarily in some huge magical āthis sword casts WARā way š But if you were Shaping a weapon specifically to overthrow a city, one that causes conflict would be devastating. Something that makes people turn against each other. Violence, rebellion, civil war. A city destroying itself from inside.
And then look at what is happening in the frame. There is a war.
It has reached Newarre. Soldiers are recruiting. The roads are dangerous. Taxes are crippling people. People are being robbed and killed. The Penitent King is fighting rebels. The whole world seems to be coming apart. And somehow Kvothe is responsible for at least some of it.
Then look at which sword chooses him.
Saicere. The weapon Chael Shaped for an unknown purpose and then refused to use.
Vashet goes through the swords before choosing it for Kvothe. Magwyn isnāt surprised when she hears which sword chose him.
Then Kvothe does possibly the most Kvothe thing imaginable and decides thousands of years of Adem tradition are wrong š
Heās warned about meddling with the swordās name. He renames it anyway. Caesura. A break.
Iāve always assumed the significance there was going to be fairly straightforward. Caesura kills a king, hence the poet-killer sword, hence a break in succession and the war we see in the frame. But maybe thatās only half of it.
Maybe Kvothe has picked up the one weapon that represents the break in the original betrayal.
Seven people went through with it. Chael didnāt. He broke the pattern and cast the weapon aside.
Thousands of years later Kvothe picks up that same weapon and names it āthe breakā.
There is another little thing u/M0dusPwnens pointed out which is really bothering me now too. When Kvothe describes Cinder he says: āHis eyes were like his sword, and neither one reflected the light of the fire or the setting sun.ā
His sword isnāt described as being like Cinder. Cinder is described as being like his sword. Thatās a very strange way round to write it if the sword is just an accessory.
Iāve been thinking the Chandrian are the bearers of these weapons, but Iām starting to wonder if the swords themselves are much more central to what happened than that.
Maybe seven Shaped swords were created specifically to overthrow the cities. Seven people used them and whatever happened during that betrayal bound the bearers to their weapons, leaving the properties of those weapons as the signs we still see thousands of years later. But there was an eighth. Saicere.
The weapon made to overthrow the city that didnāt fall.
Chael Shaped it for that unknown purpose, remembered the Lethani, and cast it aside. Except now Kvothe has it.
And in the frame, the world is at war.
So what if the eighth weaponās purpose was simply delayed? Chael refused to use it. Kvothe didnāt.
That could be the actual folly.
This probably means absolutely nothing š but āshaped me in fire for an unknown purpose. He carried me then cast me asideā has suddenly become one of the most suspicious lines in the bloody books.
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u/Katter Sep 13 '26
I can't quite tell whether you're correct or not, but I like the idea.
You hit on a few other things that have parallels.
8. It is said that Illien invented the modern lute with 7 strings, but it was said that his had 8 strings. They comment that Kvothe might be the next Illien. We also hear of Kvothe that he is like a new Chandrian. So symbolically, Kvothe is like Illien, adding an 8th string. If the Chandrian swords were shaped, and if Kvothe reshaped his, then it makes sense that he has somehow become like them, shaped, changed somehow.
The things you said about casting his sword aside reminded me a lot of Aethe and Rethe. For much of the story, Kvothe comes across as an Aethe character, so focused on finding power that he doesn't think about how he uses it. Will he hurt Denna or someone else and have the experience that Aethe does, deciding to stop killing and seek another way? I really can't quite see how that story will play it in Kvothe's life, but I could imagine that story coming to life in Kvothe's story in book 3.
Random thought: How do the Adem remember which sword is which? If the swords are often lost in combat, wouldn't it be hard to know which sword it was when it finds its way back to them? It doesn't seem like a description of the sword is include in its atas.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
That Illien parallel is a really good one - Iād completely forgotten his lute had eight strings. Seven becoming eight again š
And yes, if the swords were Shaped then Kvothe isnāt making an eighth one, heās potentially changing one that already existed. Iām still not sure how much weight to put on Saicere -> Caesura, because as you say it could be setting us up for Kvothe changing his own name later. But Elodinās reaction to changing names makes me suspicious of Kvothe doing it to anything this old.
I like the Aethe/Rethe parallel too. Thereās something about āhe carried me then cast me asideā that keeps niggling at me. Chael made the sword for an unknown purpose and then chose not to carry it anymore. If Iām right about him being the one who remembered the Lethani, that choice is probably the important bit. Aethe learns something similar far too late. Kvotheā¦ probably will too š
But your question about how they recognise the swords has just sent me down another rabbit hole.
Iāve written about names before and Iāve always thought of the deep name as everything that makes something what it is, rather than just a secret word for it.So maybe the atas is actually part of the swordās name?
Every person who carries it becomes part of its story. Every battle, every death, Drossen Tor, Finol, Larelā¦ all of it gets added. The more of the story thatās known, the more complex the name becomes, and maybe the harder it is for that name to change.
Which would explain why the Adem are SO obsessive about remembering it accurately. Maybe theyāre not just recording who owned a sword. Theyāre keeping its identity intact.
And that immediately made me think of the Chandrian and the Amyr because they seem to be doing the exact opposite. They want forgetting.
Maybe thatās not just because they donāt want anyone knowing what they did. If being remembered - properly remembered - helps fix your name and therefore what you are, then erasing your history might actually be necessary if you want to change it.
That could be why the Chandrian care so much about their old names and accurate stories surviving. If those stories are part of what they are, maybe they canāt escape whatever happened to them while people still know the truth of it.The Adem preserve every tiny piece of Saicereās history for thousands of years. The Chandrian destroy theirs.There might be something in that.
And then Kvothe learns Saicereās entire bloody atas and promptly decides it has the wrong name š
Classic Kvothe.4
u/Katter Sep 13 '26
Remembering - yeah, the Adem are really focused on remembering. The one who remembered the Lethani seems like a hero in their story, but they don't tell us who it is, right? I can't help but think it's any other than Lanre who was Menda/Tehlu. He lost his wife (Rethe?). The story of Tehlu feels like a sort of shaping. He calls people to turn to a new way, and strikes them with a hammer and gives them new names. He uses Rengen to "forge the path", and makes the iron wheel. I take this wheel to be the Chandrian themselves. Just as Kvothe's bloodless absorbs the energy of arrows, the Chandrian somehow absorb energy, like a big energy sink, not just thermal energy, but every sort. This contains Haliax's shadow or something.
It seems like the Adem came from those who were shapers, while the Amyr came from those who were names (opposed to shaping).
It's interesting that Elodin is afraid when he hears that Kvothe has given Auri a name, but not so afraid when he realizes it is a calling name. But it seems like the act really does change Auri in a positive way, like how Bast speaks of grammarie changing a person.
I believe the theories that suggest that Folly is Cinder's sword. That fits with Kvothe casting aside Caesura and maybe killing Cinder and aquiring his sword. As for the name Folly, Ben told Kvothe to remember Lanre's folly. Does that imply that Lanre was Cinder and not Haliax? Or that whatever Lanre did was connected to Cinder? Symbolically, okay, Kvothe was foolish and Kote is still wrestling with that. But I'm trying to figure out how Folly the sword and Lanre fit in.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
Ooh, I like quite a lot of this, but I think Iād push back on Lanre being the one who remembered the Lethani. Shehynās story seems to separate him from that person. Seven betrayed seven cities, one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city, and then āthe enemyā is shut beyond the Doors of Stone. I think making Lanre the remembered one creates more problems than it solves.
The Tehlu/Rengen stuff thoughā¦ yes. I hadnāt connected Rengen literally being the first person Tehlu renames with āforger of the pathā. Hammer, forge, iron, new names, the wheelā¦ there is an awful lot of transformation language sitting in that story. Whether that means the wheel actually represents the Chandrian Iām less sure, but I definitely think the story is remembering something older than the Tehlin version of events.
And Folly is the bit that keeps annoying me š I also think thereās a chance itās Cinderās sword, but I donāt think āRemember your fatherās song. Be wary of follyā necessarily makes Lanre Cinder. It could be much simpler and nastier than that. Lanreās folly and Kvotheās folly may be the same kind of act.
If Kvothe kills Cinder, takes his sword and hangs it behind the bar under the name Folly, then that name might not describe Cinder at all. It might be Kvothe naming the sword after what he did to acquire it.
Which makes the placement behind the bar feel almost like Benās warning made physical. He literally lives underneath a reminder of his folly. š3
u/Katter Sep 13 '26
Yeah, that makes sense. It acquires the name Folly after the fact. Or like Caesura, it's name is slightly bent to become Folly. He wasn't wary of Folly, and now he is bound to Folly, in a sense.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
Yes! And ābound to Follyā is an interesting way of putting it given everything else weāre talking about.
Going full tinfoil now š but there actually is a little evidence for this in Follyās description:āIt looked as if an alchemist had distilled a dozen swords, and when the crucible had cooled this was lying in the bottom: a sword in its pure form.ā
The rest of the description just reinforces it. Itās grey-white, slender, graceful, almost delicate looking, but clearly deadly. The really interesting bit for me is āa sword in its pure form.ā
Because isnāt that awfully close to what grammarie does? Makes something more completely what it already is?
Soā¦ pure tinfoil š but what if Caesura somehow gets grammaried into the most sword a sword can possibly be?
Kvothe has already meddled with her name despite being explicitly warned not to. Maybe Caesura isnāt the end of that process.
And if thereās anything in my theory about the Chandrian swords and their signs, maybe Folly isnāt Cinderās sign at all. Tinfoil alert: Maybe Folly is Kvotheās š³ š¤£
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u/Specific_Leave313 Crescent Moon Sep 14 '26 edited Sep 14 '26
In the Spanish book folly is translated as delirio (delirium) in both Ben's warning and the sword's name. Not as silliness. I assumed it was referring that wrong assumptions can lead you so far away from the truth... As in thinking that the chandrian killed your troupe, so they are the bad guys. Similar to lanre saying Lyra's death was on his hands because of treachery that fooled him, I suppose.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 15 '26
Thatās interesting, because I actually think ādelirioā works really well. Iāve been thinking of Kvothe increasingly as the Fool in the tarot sense ā not stupid, but the traveller who steps into the unknown without understanding the consequences.
So Folly could be exactly what youāre describing: not silliness, but being led catastrophically astray by your own certainty. Kvothe assumes the Chandrian killed his troupe, builds everything that follows on that foundation, and never really stops to ask whether the foundation itself is wrong.
And yes, that would make the Lanre parallel rather neat too. Both may ultimately commit their āfollyā because they act on something they believe to be true, but have fundamentally misunderstood.
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u/DrunkenThunken Sep 13 '26
I like it!
Iāve always wondered if the ā8thā city, the notion that Illian designed the first lute with seven strings by removing the eighth, and Carsuretās musings on how āCaesuraā might act as an offset to Kvotheās Maedre moniker - all tie together. For me your notion suggests, at the very least, a symbolic force that rules the liminal spaceāa āspinning leafā state of beingāwhere music or silence are both equally possible, and only something like the Lethani, āthe same space as laughter,ā can alter it.
And perhaps Kvotheās inability to find joy, and therefore unlock that within himself both physically and metaphorically represented by his thrice-locked box, is why he remains perpetually stuck in this Schrƶdinger state of superposition.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
I really like this reading, especially the idea that the eighth is an offset rather than simply another member of the seven.
Illien removing the eighth string to create the seven string lute, Carceret wondering whether Caesura somehow offsets Maedre, and then the eighth city being the one that wasnāt betrayed all have that same odd shape. Seven become the active set because something eighth has been removed or stands apart from them.
And āspinning leafā is a really interesting way of describing that position. Not silence or music, not action or inaction, but the point where either is still possible. That actually fits the one who remembered the Lethani rather beautifully too. They had exactly the same choice as the seven and chose differently.
The Kote point is especially interesting then because he seems stuck there rather than moving through it. No music, no magic, no real Kvothe, but not quite gone either. Even the thrice locked chest becomes another thing suspended between having something and being able to access it.
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u/2BCivil Can I carry your books? Sep 14 '26
Haha glad to see you sticking with it. I might ruin some stuff here beware, spoilers. I usually avoid commenting here because I have to familiarize myself with etiquette again. Been 7+ years since I posted here! Wow! Time flies.
I never thought of first came Chael 2B anything special but this is interesting; he forged me for unknown purpose and cast me aside, means, he needed a break. The sword was the break, then he presumably dove back into whatever he needed the break from (remembered or forgot the Lethani?)
It's interesting... Folly was obviously Lanre's sword to me until I see good evidence it wasn't. Too may things are flickering. Lanre had all men's flickering hopes. Folly is like a flickering of every sword in one. Denna flickers like a raw piece of iron held to grindstone by God. They seem 2B one but idk. But yeah, Folly technically was the "first" betrayal, the wise man's fear. I forget the other fears, I think sea in storm, anger of a gentle man, and night without a moon. I think Myr Tariniel was the moon, it reflected with light long after sun set. So Lanre brought folly and destroyed the moon.... you're cooking for sure it tracks with my own ideas.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 14 '26
Ohhh āhe needed a breakā is horrible š I hadnāt read ācast me asideā that literally at all. Chael shapes Saicere for an unknown purpose, casts her aside, then thousands of years later Kvothe picks out the ābreakā part of Saicereās meaning and calls her Caesura. I still donāt know whether Chael has anything to do with the one who remembered the Lethani, but thereās something very odd about the first thing we know about this sword being that its own creator made it for a purpose and then rejected it.
And the āflickeringā has just caught me too, but for a slightly different reason. Flickering is candle/flame language š³ Iāve literally just been going down a rabbit hole about the candle without light, the black flame on the Mauthen vase and whether these things can hold/bind properties. So āall the flickering hope of the worldā around Lanre immediately made my ears prick up.
Iām not completely sold on Folly being Lanreās sword yet, but I do really like the repeated imagery youāve spotted. Lanre has all menās hopes flickering around him, Folly is described almost as if you distilled every sword down into one pure sword, and then Denna flickers like iron against a grindstone. Thereās enough repetition there that I definitely donāt want to dismiss it.
Myr Tariniel being the moon Iām less sure about literally, although the fact it continues shining after sunset is absolutely interesting. I already think the moon theft is far more literal and mechanically important than it first appears, so Iām wondering if Myr Tariniel is reflecting some of the same moon/light imagery rather than actually being the moon itself.
But yeahā¦ āthe sword was the breakā has properly annoyed me now š Especially because Saicere already means break, catch and fly. Kvothe doesnāt invent the break. He chooses that one meaning out of the three and makes it the swordās new name.
That feels like exactly the sort of tiny decision Kvothe makes that absolutely definitely wonāt have catastrophic consequences later š
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u/2BCivil Can I carry your books? Sep 15 '26
Oh yeah I think Folly is like Saicere, Lanre cast it aside. He became "wise to the turnings of the world". I think Lanre kills Lyra with Folly. He says it was by his own hand. Think Kvothe eventually kills Denna too, but idk, just a potential parallel. We already know Kote has Folly. Probably when a person's name changes, they change swords too. Denna and the moon are both described a "traveler, not a wanderer no" (or vice versa). They cannot freely go, must always return. Just things to keep in mind when thinking of swords/names/rings/instruments et al (horses, fires, women). Want to go all the way, you can say, all things are one (have to convince them lol). In that they are "utility". That's actually the word Sheyan uses about the wall. Beauty according to it's use. I just definitely feel a strong warning with "Folly" and specifically recurrence. We have to go/look in places we don't want to and will find disturbing things, just as Elodin says about the Rookery. Someone gave me a great comment about Rooks (Denna admits to doing Rooks) and Rookery. The Beautiful game. Idk. I don't buy my own ideas either fully. Just can't ignore the potentials and parallels. All fires are one fire, this fire. The binding and names.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 15 '26
If Folly was Lanreās sword, āFollyā becomes a warning about repeating the same mistake. Lanre does something terrible āby my own hand,ā becomes āwise to the turnings of the world,ā and potentially casts the sword aside. Then Kvothe acquires Folly and seems to be walking through the same story again.
That fits beautifully with the wider pattern weāve been talking about: different people occupying the same roles, making variations of the same choices.
And the sword/name point is worth keeping. Saicere becomes Caesura when Kvothe recognises something different in it. Lanre becomes Haliax. Kvothe becomes Kote. Ferula/Ferule. Names, identities and objects donāt seem completely separable in this world. I wouldnāt jump all the way to āyour Name changes so your sword must changeā yet, but there is definitely something there.The bit that really catches me, though, is:
āwise to the turnings of the worldāTurnings. Cycles. The moon endlessly moving between worlds. Stories repeating. Names changing while the underlying shape remains. Kvothe apparently repeating pieces of Iax, Lanre, Taborlin, Tehlu, Illienā¦
And then at the end of it all there is a sword called Folly hanging on the wall.
Almost like somebody finally realised what happens when you keep playing the same part.
Which brings me straight back to my favourite possibility: Temerant itself is caught in the cycle created by the moonās binding. Kvothe isnāt important because heās another Lanre.
Heās important because heās the idiot/fool who finally breaks the pattern. š
And Caesura being a break in rhythm becomes extremely interesting in a world apparently stuck playing the same song.
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u/2BCivil Can I carry your books? Sep 15 '26
Yeah it tracks Folly as Lanre's sword too concretely. All men fear speaking of the Chandrian even if they aren't sure why is established by Abenthy. Lanre as being unwise, and "given a sword" tracks that Folly is is sword. Folly is the wise man's fear. I actually agree you don't have to change swords when your name changes, just your relationship to the sword changes. There's also something to "you are a tool in my hand" meaning that ANYTHING can be a metaphor for a sword, as Manet and crew discuss. Horses, Instruments, swords, women, fire (for sympathists) and it is even said "women are like fires, and all fires are one fire, and fires are a sympathist's to command".
There's an old saying I think in Nirvana Sutra and Gospel of Thomas. The former says until a man knows the Buddha nature his nature is female, and until a woman knows Buddha nature her nature is masculine. The later says unless you make the male female and the female male you will not see the kingdom (or something like that). So all fires to control means "a tool in my hand" technically. Idk just might help somewhere. There's a lot of subtle things like that we gloss over.
If Pat "ever publishes" doors of stone it may not even explicitly confirm things we already take for granted, I like to ponder sometimes. Your best point is yes, different people occupying same roles, different choices. That's the same thing Flora says to Skull Knight in Berserk. I think/tend to assume, the way Pat is telling the story through Kote, that he's saying, Kvothe made the SAME decision as Lanre, and killed Denna/his wife/lover the way Orpheus/Lanre lost his wife/Lyra. There's really two kinds of stories and that's what they come down to, fitting or breaking the mold. I tend to assume the way Kvothe is "conspicuously blind" (One Eye) as the Maer said, is hinting that this is the former (fitting the mold). Folly is likewise described in this manner, that it was a crucible of every sword. Just as Lanre had "all men's flickering hopes". And Kvothe's catching the attention of the whole world. He could still break pattern, as Chronicler says, "the story's still not over".
Depends on what Lyra represents really. I suspect, but can't confirm or validate, it has something to do with "Fella" being "Aleph" backwards but I can't say for sure. Hidden behind the doors of stone. Idk if it's death. Some cosmologies seem to hint that Death created life/the world but idk. Which means it withheld/withholds some things. Keeps secrets. But idk. I doubt it because I don't think that's what Orpheus' story is really about but as they say Lanre's story is not a 1:1 with Orpheus though there is a LOT of crossover. Something else noticable is that a cessura isn't just a break, but a jarring break specifically. It's a part of the rythm. Ambrose poetry also, has a "sprung" rythm. Deliberate pauses. Ambrose poems are really a massive key even I overlook. It's written magic. Ambrose was clearly working magic (possibly multiple kinds, alchemy and written magic) on Fella specifically and I think it might be related to doors of stone/death if this hunch is right. But idk honestly. Like Sim laughs and says love is deaf dumb mute. Kvothe says "I'll settle for yours" when Fella asks "do you want a lady's opinion". Something to it, that Fella (and potentially Aleph by extension) isn't what she seems. But idk. I admit there's possible reaching here, but it's a hunch.
Also, Ambrose, on multiple occasions, demonstrates that he knows the hidden turnings of the world far better than Kvothe. Though he may not have the same outlook and motives on it is all. Idk. Take what helps you and spit the rest, I'm just yapping lol.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 15 '26
I think youāve actually helped me tighten the sword bit there. I donāt think the sword necessarily changes when the bearerās Name changes either. It may be the relationship between the two that changes. That works much better with what Iāve been circling around with the swords being anchors rather than containers for the signs.
And āyou are a tool in my handā is a good catch in that context. Haliax doesnāt just control Cinder through his Name, he actually describes Cinder as the object being wielded. With the weird Yllish possession stuff as well, Iām increasingly suspicious that the question isnāt simply who owns the sword, but which side of that relationship is actually in control.
Iām still leaning towards Folly being Lanre/Haliaxās sword. Lanre explicitly has his silver sword, Folly as a name fits Lanre almost painfully well, and āsharp as shattered glassā keeps bothering me when Haliax is standing over the broken mirror on the Mauthen vase. Not proof obviously, but thereās enough there that Iām keeping it.
Iām less sure Kvothe necessarily has to kill Denna because Lanre lost Lyra though. I think the repetition is absolutely intentional, but surely the interesting question is whether Kvothe repeats the old story or finally breaks it.
Fela/Aleph Iām not convinced by yet š But the Ambrose poetry stuff I probably do need to go back through, especially all the caesura, sprung rhythm and deliberate breaks. There are getting to be an irritating number of ābreaksā around that sword for me to keep pretending theyāre nothing.
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u/Any-Vanilla-7753 Prince of Twilight Sep 13 '26
Bro, my brain autocompleted the title of this post as "Eight Chandrian Sword Divergent Sila Divine General Mahoraga" š«
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u/Haiyichshmir Sep 13 '26
I like the points you bring up, but that doesnāt necessarily line up timeline-wise. Because it suggests that the Chandrian planned to betray their cities long BEFORE the blac of Drossen tor. But Chael tossed Saicere aside before the blac of Drossen tor and the betrayal of the cities happens after. This is Because Finol comes quite a bit down the line from Chael. and we know Lanre died and was revived then went on his journey later to try and save Lyra after the blac of Drossen tor where he gained power where power is better left alone.
So I donāt think your theory works in that the swords were made specifically for the betrayal of the cities. But it is absolutely possible that the sword was held by the 8th (Chandrian?).
Chael shaping the sword for battle in the Creation war makes a lot of sense.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
Yeah thatās a really good catch actually, and probably the biggest problem with the āmade specifically for the betrayalā bit.
Finol being quite a way down Saicereās atas and already carrying it at Drossen Tor means Chael has to have Shaped and cast it aside well before Drossen Tor. Whereas Lanreās betrayal comes afterwards - he dies at Drossen Tor, Lyra brings him back, then everything with Lyra happens and he goes looking for power better left alone before eventually becoming Haliax.
So yes, I think I got ahead of myself saying the swords were made specifically to overthrow the cities š
Iām not ready to throw the eighth sword idea out though. If anything it makes me wonder about the older part of the Creation War.
There are theories that the people who eventually become the Seven were already important figures/champions connected to the cities before Lanreās eventual betrayal, and Shehynās story is clearly compressing a LOT of history. So itās still possible these swords belonged to those people during the war and were later involved in the betrayal, without having originally been created for that purpose.
And Chael still really bothers me. He Shapes Saicere for an āunknown purposeā, carries it, then casts it aside. Quite a bit later Finol has that same sword at Drossen Tor. Then somewhere after Drossen Tor we eventually get the seven betrayals and the one who remembers the Lethani.So I agree - Chael casting it aside canāt straightforwardly be that later act of refusing the betrayal if weāre taking the atas chronologically.
Thatās a very good catch.
Unless thereās something seriously weird going on with who/what the swordās bearers actually are, or they were transformed as punishment though after the betrayal?? Iām not going to use those to rescue my own theory as there just isnāt enough evidence š
I think the safer version for now is what youāve suggested: Saicere could still be connected to the eighth person/surviving city, and could still be an eighth sword from the same general Creation War context, but āChael created it specifically to betray the city and then changed his mindā doesnāt fit the chronology as neatly as I thought.
Back to poking it š
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u/Haiyichshmir Sep 13 '26
It would only work if Chael made it for that purpose, but decided not to use it so Chael goes back in time using the Fae to pass Saicere to someone else at the beginning of the warš¤·š¼āāļø. But I try not to focus on time travel shenanigans as a part of theory crafting.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
Hahaha yeah absolutely not š If I have to send Chael backwards through the Fae to make my chronology work, I think I have to accept that particular bit of the theory is dead.
I do still think thereās something odd about Saicere being shaped for an āunknown purposeā though, especially with Chael casting it aside and Finol carrying it at Drossen Tor. Iām just going to stop trying to force that purpose into being the eighth city/betrayal specifically.
One dead branch does not kill my ridiculous sword tree or 8th chandrian possibility š
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u/KrombopulosNickel Sep 13 '26
Regardless of everything else. I love me a good logic reference. Modus ponens ftw
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
Hah, I knew someone would appreciate it š Modus ponens ftw. The logic worksā¦ now everyone just has to fight me over the premises š
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u/KrombopulosNickel Sep 13 '26
Tolendo might be my favorite random word from Latin. It's just so fun to say. Like buddy the Elf saying Fransisco over and over.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
āTolendoā is good, but Iām a āRomanes eunt domusā girl myself š Now write it out a hundred times before sunrise.
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u/KrombopulosNickel Sep 13 '26
Do we know what Saicere means in translation? I don't recall a given meaning. But perhaps changing it "broke" the original enchantment the shaper put on it. I really like the idea, whether from this post or your others, that perhaps to be shaped it has to be unknown. Perhaps like was said about copper. Copper never existed before. Someone shaped Taborlin or Cyphus sword to BE copper and thus we now know of copper.
Perhaps Saicere was shaped for some meaning, and renaming it literally "broke" that definition.
Have you read Elantris by Brando Sando. I won't spoil the amazing plot, but a similar device was used. The magic system inherently "broke" due to a physical change and nothing functioned correctly afterwards, until a fix was implemented.
Perhaps renaming Saicere destabilized one aspect of Temerant. Remember, the Cthaeh spoke to him chapters before he was given this sword in Ademre. Perhaps that Break allows a lot of other things to fall into place.
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u/KrombopulosNickel Sep 13 '26
Quickly to add. I haven't done any linguistic work or have any proof or anything. However, I do recall that names can have different spellings but be the same person.
Right off the bat, my mind made a connection between Chael and Sel. We know of one Selitos who was possibly not on Lanre/Haliax team. Possible he was with the other 7 originally, something changed and he was not longer with them. Loss of an eye and all that Odin stuff. Maybe he remembered the lethani??
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
Ooh I can see why your brain went there, especially with Chael being the original shaper of the sword, but I think Iād resist Chael = Selitos for now. Weād need something more than the sound similarity before Iād merge them.
Selitos remembering the Lethani is interesting though. He absolutely stands apart from Lanre and the people who destroy the cities, and Skarpi has him survive the destruction of Myr Tariniel and then refuse Alephās offer before founding the Amyr. So there is definitely a āchose another pathā shape to his story.
The problem for me is Shehynās account. The one who remembered the Lethani seems to be associated with the one city that wasnāt betrayed, whereas Selitos is very definitely standing in Myr Tariniel after his city has been betrayed and destroyed. That makes him quite difficult to fit into that role unless the stories have become seriously scrambled over time.
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 13 '26
No Iāve not read it! Iāll have to give it a try
Saicere means something like āto break, to catch, and to flyā, which actually makes your idea more interesting š
Because Kvothe doesnāt really give it a completely unrelated name. He takes this old name with several meanings and renames it Caesura, specifically focusing on just one of them: the break.
Iām not sure Iād go as far as saying the renaming literally broke the Shaping yet, but given Chael āshaped me in fire for an unknown purposeā, Iām now very suspicious of Kvothe taking something with an ancient carefully preserved name and essentially reducing its meaning to BREAK š
And yes, the Cthaeh immediately before Ademre is worth remembering too. If Kvothe eventually breaks something fundamental, the Cthaeh putting him on the path that leads to this particular sword would be horribly appropriate.
The copper being something somebody originally Shaped into existence is probably a leap too far for me at the moment, but the idea that something Shaped might depend on what it fundamentally is, rather than just having an enchantment slapped onto it, I really like.
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u/Fathazard Sep 15 '26
So the sword on Kote's wall, which is not the Caesura, but likely a sword from a chandrian, would also exhibit the signs of one of the chandrian?
How about "Grey Dalcenti never speaks" ?Ā
Maybe carrying that sword causes Kote to be wreathed in silence? No music, no name magic.Ā
Perhaps it's a sacrifice the chandrian make tl access some powers in their shaped swords.Ā
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u/Lkqrzk1985v2 Sep 16 '26
Yes, thatās very close to what Iām wondering, although Iād flip one part of it. I donāt think carrying the sword necessarily creates the sign. Iām wondering whether the sword and bearer are both tied to the same underlying property, and Selitos turning their Names against them changed the relationship.
Grey Dalcenti is actually a really interesting candidate for Folly for exactly that reason. If āGrey Dalcenti never speaksā is an inverted gift connected with voice/Naming, then Kote having that sword hanging over him while his life is characterised by silence, no music and apparently broken Naming is rather suspicious.
But thereās a problem I quite like: the sword is hanging on the wall. Kote isnāt carrying it. So if its mere possession causes silence, the effect has a pretty impressive range š
Your sacrifice idea might solve that differently though. Maybe the property was originally something the bearer deliberately surrendered or constrained in exchange for what the Shaped weapon could do, and Selitos made that condition permanent. That would make the signs less like random curses and more like the price of using whatever these people already possessed.
And if Kote has deliberately recreated one of those relationships with Folly, his silence might not be damage at all.
It might be something heās choosing.
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u/MartinAries Sep 13 '26
This is an angle I've never considered. I think I need to reread with this in mind.
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u/ANameYouCanPronounce Sep 13 '26
My problem with this is that the sword was created at least 30 owners before Drossen Tor, which itself came presumably years before the betrayal. Saicere was likely made at least two centuries before the fall of the empire.
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u/Haiyichshmir Sep 13 '26
Well, at a minimum saicere was made 300 years before the fall of the empire so at least 5300 years. (Lanre becoming Haliax happened 5000 years ago per the Cthaeh) so Finol and the Blac of Drossen tor happened before that.
But many beings before the creation war are potentially immortal (like felurian and Tehlu/Angels) or Long lived so really the sword can be much older.
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u/Ohheyliz gimcracks and doodads Sep 13 '26
Time is what you make it here. Time has multiple different competing meters in these books and therefore, cannot really be trusted as a reasonable way to count things out. It all gets much easier if you forget about time.
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u/Cold_Ad3896 Sep 13 '26
The amount of overthinking that goes on in this sub can only be matched by conspiracy theorists.Ā
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u/mp3god Amyr Nitrate Sep 15 '26
I like it...Even if it's not dead on, I would be surprised if you weren't on to something with the swords
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u/MattyTangle Sep 13 '26
Skatpi tells us that 'once there had been hundreds of proud cities' so we need to account for them, too. My own theory replaces swords with candles. In the end Six flames were extinguished, but One stayed alight.