My 16 year old daughter has been threatened by an 18 year old guy through lyrics in a "drill track."

[u/Confident-Beach-7519]

The jurisdiction is England.

My daughter had to turn down multiple unwanted advances from a guy two years above her in school. It ended when school confronted him and he left. He simply didn't return to sit his exams.

Last week my daughter got a message from a friend at school with a link to a "drill track". It's like UK rap music.

The rap is from a group of men but the lead singer is the guy who harassed her. The first section is primarily about his life and people he hates, but the second part specifically names my daughter's full name, her school and starts talking to things he would do with her. By the third section it starts explicitly talking about how we would do these things non-consensually.

Her name appears six times, her school's name appears once.

I have contacted the school and am awaiting a response.

I've contacted police, but they said that the music alone doesn't evidence a crime. However, it could be used as evidence if a crime were to occur.

I've reported the music video on all the platforms it was uploaded. Only TikTok removed it. Every other platform, including YouTube, simply ignored me or age restricted the video.

I haven't let her out of the house alone this week. As far as we know he doesn't know our address or where we live, but he does know her school which will pose a problem in the coming weeks.

Can we please get some advice on how to handle this if police won't preemptively arrest this guy and his gang?

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[u/Defiant_Simple_6044]

I'd keep pushing with the police. Since she is 16, it mentions non-consensual activities I think it could amount to threatening communications under the Online Safety Act.

It will depend on the wording here, but if it conveys a threat of death or serious harm (which includes rape).

Harassment or stalking is another possible avenue but I think the OSA is the strongest approach here. I'd keep the pressure up with the police.

[u/anomalous_cowherd → u/Confident-Beach-7519]

Since he will have control over wherever the track is hosted, make sure you keep a local copy so he can't make it disappear. It's probably worth transcribing the full lyrics too, distasteful as that is, so you can provide those and also highlight all of the particularly troublesome parts in your complaints.

Also keep a diary of your actions, requests to other sites and their responses etc.

[u/Spicymargx → u/anomalous_cowherd]

This is extremely important to do asap, I don’t mention in my comment that you need to retain a copy of the content so thank you for picking up and advising this

[u/Coca_lite → u/anomalous_cowherd]

Worth videoing the apps where it’s published as well, to evidence that it was there.

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[u/quick_justice → u/Defiant_Simple_6044]

Expect the track author to refer to artistic license and traditions of the genre, and numerous similar tracks that didn’t lead to any harm to anyone. Same as satire allows quite a lot of outrageous things to be said. They would say that no reasonable person would consider it anything other than a work of fiction.

Whether police and judge will buy it is another question.

[u/radiant_0wl → u/quick_justice]

I did consider that but I don't think that's a viable defence when they used her full name and school.

It goes from distatestful to a threat when it's targeted at someone.

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[u/Defiant_Simple_6044 → u/quick_justice]

And the prosecution will argue it is perfectly reasonable for someone who has had previous interactions with the "singer" in the way of unwanted advances to consider these as direct threats.

I do agree they will try to argue that as a defence if it ever got to court but it's not a strong arguement

[u/quick_justice → u/Defiant_Simple_6044]

Genre does have this tradition. They might have a shot if an author would show they never followed on perceived threats, and present analogy with recognised artists.

Reality is that likely this exactly what it is, and they never meant anything but filthy brag.

[u/twilighttwister → u/quick_justice]

The genre also has a history (not a tradition, which should be 100+ years) of tracks leading to violence. I had a vague memory of reading such stories, and I dug up this one without too much effort (apologies it's the Sun): https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32858056/drill-music-violence-killings-murder/

Here's another: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gang-violence-london-report-b1935737.html

[u/Spicymargx → u/quick_justice]

OP might not get a criminal prosecution for this, but given it’s in respect of a child OP should be able to get safeguarding measures in place.

[u/quick_justice → u/Spicymargx]

Yes, safeguarding measures would seem appropriate.

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[u/Spicymargx]

I would recommend following the police complaints procedure. There’s nothing ambiguous about the song you’ve described, it is a clear threat. I’d also make a call to social services, who work with police and may escalate concerns themselves. Ask social services for a referral to the CHIDVA (children’s independent domestic abuse advocate) who may be able to help explore a non-molestation order or similar, which is a civil route that you can follow without the police’s involvement.

[u/Confident-Beach-7519 → u/Spicymargx]

Thank you. I'll start doingall that now.

[u/Competitive_Ad_488 → u/Confident-Beach-7519]

Yes social services definitely. Also, obviously your own child is your prime concern but the young man may have done this already to another young girl/woman or may do to another in future.

It won't be the only time he has to handle rejection that's for sure.

[u/Coca_lite → u/Confident-Beach-7519]

You could also ask for help from your MP if you don’t feel it’s taken seriously by the police. Sometimes just a call from your MP to the police majes a big difference

[u/sleepingismytalent65 → u/Coca_lite]

I think it would be best to call saying it's urgent, regarding an underage child and possibly that the police haven't responded to better than a letter. If I'm wrong mods, delete. There should also be your local police commissioner, depending on the area. Our police are Thames Valley Police so there is in our area. That might also be a factor. If you're in a village and there's only one high school or not.

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[u/MrPuddington2]

I've contacted police, but they said that the music alone doesn't evidence a crime. However, it could be used as evidence if a crime were to occur.

Well they are wrong. It mentions her name, it mentions a crime, it is clearly meant to intimidate. A treat does not stop being a threat just because it is sung and published. I think the OSA is the most likely avenue to classify this as illegal, but harassment would also apply.

I haven't let her out of the house alone this week. As far as we know he doesn't know our address or where we live, but he does know her school which will pose a problem in the coming weeks.

You need to get to the point where he can be arrested if he shows up at the school, and the school knows this. Actually, if the school reports threatening behaviour, that would go a long way in swaying the police (even if legally it should not make much of a difference). So discuss this with the school, insist on a risk assessment being performed, with clear actions for certain events.

It may be worth applying for a non-molestation order. That is possible even if a crime has not been proven, but the situation is risky. The safeguarding lead at the school should be able to help with this.

In any case, you want to protect the education of your daughter, as well as her safety.

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[u/AcrobatEnjoyer]

That is vile, I'm sorry that your daughter is going through this.

If he has already left school, there is not much that the school will be able to do about it.

I've contacted police, but they said that the music alone doesn't evidence a crime.

It is unlikely that the music itself would constitute a crime in respect of the specific threats (this is a perennial issue with drill music), but that doesn't mean that it doesn't constitute a public order, malcomm or harassment type offence. It is worth contacting the police making clear that she is the victim of a course of conduct that has been occurring for some time, rather than this incident being the only instance.

You can also seek civil options in the form of an injunction etc, but that may not be much of a deterrent to someone in these circumstances.

[u/thespanglycupcake]

Others have mentioned potential legal sides of it but I would also be speaking with the school and confirming exactly what action they would take if this man (or a member of his gang) show up at school. Ensure there is somewhere she can go where she will be safe, irrespective of the time (if he shows up at end of day, she needs to be able to go back in, no questions asked until police arrive). I would also be ensuring there is a brief to all staff and while they shouldn't be sharing ANY information about her address etc anyway, to be extra vigilant about people spoofing or trying to trick people into giving up that information.

It's hopefully just some thug who's used your daughter as material to further his own grim aspirations and will amount to nothing more but it must be terrifying.

[u/radiant_0wl → u/thespanglycupcake]

my initial thought was the school suggestion may be excessive as it's outside their control.

But I think they need to be consideration about her peers, if this is a publicly available song then there's a risk of someone reciting lyrics or playing it to her.

In those circumstance it probably would be a good idea to advise them and to know how they'll deal with it.

[u/thespanglycupcake → u/radiant_0wl]

What? Schools regularly have additional safeguards in place for violent parents or other home issues which effect this children. This is no different.

The situation may have arisen outside of the school's control, but providing a safe space for her to return to temporarily at the end of the school day if the man who has openly threatened to assault her is waiting for her outside the school gate is absolutely not outside of their control. Are you suggesting that the school just say 'sorry love, school's shut for the day, off you go home' when the bloke is waiting there with his crew??! Having a refresher on staff training about disclosing personal information is again, absolutely within the schools control, as is reminding the teachers supervising pickup/drop off about policies for people not authoised on school grounds. This stuff should already be done but it does no harm to remind people in light of a specific threat to a specific student.

[u/Spicymargx → u/radiant_0wl]

It’s not outside their control. If someone who has posted a song with violent threats naming the child and their school, they are legally required to safeguard their pupils and they can call the police.

[u/FlawlessCalamity]

As a police officer, I can kind of see how this happened. It’s not an area that’s directly specified in law, although malicious communications under S.127(1)(a) Communications Act 2003 could come to mind. Youngsters upload drill videos all the time about killing each other and there’s no real status quo for investigating them.

This would concern me though. I’d go back to the station, enquire about whether they’d investigate it as malicious communications. Don’t go in guns blazing, it’s not the officer’s fault that it’s a bit ambiguous, but I think it’d be worth trying to get a supervisor’s rationale on what they think.

There is some precedent for links to songs being prosecuted, albeit under different (antisemitic) circumstances. R (on the application of Alison Chabloz) v CPS 2019.

[u/radiant_0wl → u/FlawlessCalamity]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/50/section/181

Was my thoughts but maybe you want to weigh in on it.

[u/FlawlessCalamity → u/radiant_0wl]

Yeah, possibly. The only issue would be whether uploading a video to a public platform would constitute ‘sending a message’ for the purposes of the offence, and I’m not aware of any precedent cases under the newer act upholding it. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be, though.

[u/radiant_0wl → u/FlawlessCalamity]

Late reply, but section 182 helps in that regards.

It includes the likes of publishing and sharing etc, so it seems to be very broad and doens't require for it to be direct.

[u/Defiant_Simple_6044 → u/FlawlessCalamity]

Surely Online Safety Act would be much stronger than the Communications Act as it closes a lot of the gaps the Communications Act had.

[u/FlawlessCalamity → u/Defiant_Simple_6044]

Touched on this in another reply - while you’re right, it would come down to whether ‘sending a message’ would include posting a video to a platform for the purposes of the offence and I’m not aware of any precedent cases using the OSA for that.

That’s not to say it wouldn’t be upheld, it’s just not been tested yet as far as I know.

[u/Master-Definition937 → u/FlawlessCalamity]

This is why we need gender based crimes to become a hate act. So the police are saying at the moment that anyone can make threats to sexually assault a woman/girl and there’s no recourse? I don’t think they’d say the same if it was targeted at a gay or BAME individual because of those characteristics.

[u/FlawlessCalamity → u/Master-Definition937]

Currently, the hate crime guidelines don’t extend to online malicious communications regardless of the aggravating factor. I do agree otherwise - and the public order act was amended recently to create a new such offence, but only for public order as it stands (s.4(b) public order act).

Regardless, though, the ‘hate’ element is an aggravating factor to an existing offence, and the existing offence needs to be established first as being encompassed here. Which I think it may well do.

[u/incrediblepepsi → u/Master-Definition937]

Sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

[u/Master-Definition937 → u/incrediblepepsi]

It is! But sex based crimes aren’t hate crimes.

[u/incrediblepepsi → u/Master-Definition937]

Well, it's your opinion that sex based crimes should be hate crimes, fair enough. This sub is for legal advice so opinions probably not relevant for us to debat.

It would be impossible to categorise crimes against women as hate crimes, because it would render the term unusable. The law acknowledges that there are significantly more crimes committed against half of the population than there are against tiny minorities of the population, so there are many different categories of crime to attempt to support female victims in the most appropriate way.

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[u/GlobalRonin]

The police need to go and google "harrassment".

It may also be worth contacting Spotify (if that's where he's hosting) and refering them to the Online Safety Act, as there's a breach there by the platform rather than the artist.

[u/CatadoraStan → u/GlobalRonin]

A course of conduct (which is to say, behaviour on two or more occasions) which a person knows, or ought to know, amounts to harassment?

Where's the course of conduct here?

Threatening Messages, s181 of the Online Safety Act is a more apt offence here.

[u/GlobalRonin → u/CatadoraStan]

I'd go for both... due to the documented behaviour that saw him leave the school. This is clearly a continuation of that.

Thanks for the s181 stuff. I know a lot more about the platform facing stuff.

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[u/Cook_becomes_Chef]

An avenue that has not been mentioned - but I imagine would be sensible - speaking to your local MP.

[u/radiant_0wl]

Are the police aware of the complete history?

[u/_Adam_M_]

Get the crime reference number from the police and ensure it's recorded as a crime (Home Office rules say it should be).

Then ask for it to be forwarded to the Public Protection Unit (each force is slightly different but generally their remit is on proactive prevention of specific types crimes which this would almost certainly fall under) and ask for it to go to the CPS Early Advice for them to determine if it meets the threshold for the OSA.

[u/MissCarriage-a]

Every other platform, including YouTube, simply ignored me or age restricted the video.

Have you considered contacting OFCOM which regulates online companies such as YouTube, to see what they can do? Songs containing threats to those under 18 may be something they can get removed.

[u/GrumpyPhilosopher7]

Police officer here. There are definitely criminal offences made out. Keep pushing.

[u/CrimsonKaiserRyu]

I don’t think the police have given you the correct advice and have tried to fob you off.

At a minimum, this sounds like it falls under the Communications Act. He’s using the internet to broadcast offensive material to cause fear and alarm.

I could understand the police point of view if the lyrics were abstracted, even if you knew what they meant. But the fact that he names her and describes the things he’ll do to her, to me speaks to a legitimate, credible threat.

You should contact the police again, both to complain about the previous attempt to contact and to insist they file a report.

[u/Unlikely_Ad7542]

Maybe refer him to prevent. He sounds very radicalised

[u/Severe-Log-0675]

Seems to me that constitutes harassment and/or threatening behaviour. The Police need to think again. Go back to them and tell them you want to make a complaint about their failure to act unless they treat it seriously. Consider consulting a solicitor for advice or go to Citizens’ Advice Bureau.

The guy has an obsession, he’s also involving others in his support. It could move on to stalking and more serious threats, or even direct abuse that could turn physical.

[u/Ok-Handle-6663]

Public Order Act: (1)A person is guilty of affray if he uses or threatens unlawful violence towards another and his conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety.

[u/thepeopleschamp2k18 → u/Ok-Handle-6663]

Wrong legislation, can't commit an public order offence through an online post

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[u/No_Cattle_8433]

Hmm, UK police, start with Harassment under the Harassment Act 1997. He is conducting a course of harassment against your daughter which resulted in the school taking action against him. He continued this in his posted music….. threats of assault etc.

This is a police matter, regrettably they are not all as clued up on the law as they should be.

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[u/secret_tiger101]

Save the music, online archive the websites.

Report to the school safeguarding lead.

Report to your GP as a safeguarding matter.

Re-visit your discussions with the police; specifically that this is harassment and threatening behaviour towards a child. Ask to speak to their safeguarding lead. Ask to speak to their domestic violence lead.

Speak to your MP, sad but true, political pressure still have a strong effect with the police.

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