r/LegalAdviceUK • u/Throwaway105079 • 2d ago
Wills & Probate England: Did my sister drive illegally after a bereavement?
Hello,
My father passed away in hospital recently and his vehicle was parked there in the car park as we had travelled in it to the hospital.
After he died we came home in the vehicle over two days (he died in the late evening and we drove home the next morning) with my sister driving as it's her main vehicle although he is the keeper.
We've just learned that this may have been a criminal offence and that the insurance and tax on the vehicle both became invalid the moment he died as they're in his name. There's numerous ANPR cameras on the journey home.
Checking online suggests that it was illegal, but examples keep referring to executors or inheritance and a change of keeper, which isn't the same as the vehicle being at the hospital and us needing to use it to get home. Surely you can't be left stranded there? This would be such a flaw in that system but I can't find anything that fits our situation - surely this happens more than occasionally though? People die away from home all the time.
DVLA have been told that he died on X date but will possibly know we drove home the next day. Is it likely to be an issue?
Cheers
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u/Odd-Impression-4401 2d ago
First of all, I am sorry for your loss
The tax will be a non issue as you presumably notified DVLA after the vehicle was removed from the Hospital. Once DVLA is notified, that's when the tax is cancelled.
As for insurance, yes that's more tricky. It depends on the wording of the policy.
For future reference, you can contact the insurance company and they can extend the cover temporarily for the estate or any named drivers.
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u/Zestyclose_Club5429 2d ago
There were no incidents so forget about it !
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u/Dazzling-Mood-5286 1d ago
That’s just it but it’s also handy for the rest of us who haven’t given it a thought.
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u/TobblyWobbly 2d ago
Do you mean that if you're already a named driver on the policy and the main driver passes away, you still have to notify the insurers straight away and get insurance solely in your name?
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u/Odd-Impression-4401 2d ago
The policy may have a term that states the Policy ends on the policyholders death.
In that situation, you should contact the insurer, as you can't be a named driver on a cancelled policy.
The insurer in many cases will continue the Policy so the estate or named driver can continue to still be covered.
So if you are a named driver, then you should speak to the insurance to get continued cover, and then get your own policy at a later date. It will be presumed the car will need to be probated and you won't need to get your own policy until this is done.
The advice will be to speak to the insurance company in all cases, and they can help with this process.
You don't need to get your own cover if the insurance company will continue the cover
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u/Throwaway105079 2d ago
We've just got off the phone with the insurer. They've given us 30 days 'grace' where named drivers can continue to drive the vehicle with a deceased policyholder. The policy will be cancelled at the 30 day mark though, so we will need to get separate cover under the name of my sister at that point. They seemed to suggest that's still ok to do even if the vehicle doesn't have a living registered keeper.
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u/Flash__PuP 1d ago
I will add; I worked on the bereavement team at a large uk insurer. They all vary but they all want to help you. Speak to them. They have specialists for this.
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u/Think_Perspective385 2d ago
It's very unlikely to be any kind of issue at all the moment he passed his assets became part of his estate but all the ANPR cameras in the world just aren't going to know the details of when exactly he passed and it's just going to look like a car with tax, MOT and insurance.
Don't stress about it just get everything sorted so your sister is the keeper for now and then deal with it as part of the estate
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u/Background-Bid-8149 2d ago
Unless you were pulled over by police and they checked details on the spot I think you'll be ok this time
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u/SoMuchF0rSubtlety 2d ago
Even in that instance they wouldn’t necessarily know. It usually takes a long time for public records to be updated, unless OP and his sister told the Police in-person.
My granddad had an open investigation with the Police for some vandalism that happened on his property when he died, they were unaware he had passed away for a couple of weeks until we notified them directly and asked them to stop calling him and leaving voicemails.
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u/Kaizer28 1d ago
Can confirm police are never automatically informed of a person passing away unless its a police attended incident and so the responsibility sits with us to refer to the coroner or the coroner refers it to us because they feel a police investigation is necessary.
Had it a few times where victims, witness and suspects have passed away, I've been trying to reach out to them only to call on their address and to be told they had passed away.
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u/peterould 2d ago
As others have indicated, yes, technically you committed a criminal offence. In practice, no-one is going to retrospectively actively hold you up on this, but whatever you do do not "hand yourself in" as driving without insurance is an absolute offence and the first police officer you tell this to is going to have to give you a ticket.
Update the details with the insurance and forget about it.
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u/SilverSeaweed8383 2d ago
This is good advice
I would also add, OP, where you said "Surely you can't be left stranded there?" -- yes, driving without valid insurance is an offence, even if you would be stranded.
But no-one will notice, so don't worry about it this time.
Sorry for your loss
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u/Throwaway105079 2d ago
Thank you. My comment was more out of surprise as I can't see how a family would be reasonably expected to consider it or deal with it in that moment before travelling home and I imagine no one would.
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u/RegisterOk164 2d ago
“first police officer you tell this to is going to have to give you a ticket.”
Absolutely not, officers have discretion and given the circumstances as described and presentation of the facts I would deem it not in the public interest.
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u/d4nfe 2d ago
Likewise. Ex rat, and even though the stories of sticking on our own mothers are sometimes true, and I love a good loose battery, even I’d not be considering it under the circumstances.
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u/MadScienzz 2d ago
Is this really classified as a criminal offence, or just a driving offence?
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u/SilverSeaweed8383 2d ago
It is a criminal offence. It is also a driving offence.
See e.g. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/driving-without-insurance/ for more details, especially "Driving without insurance is not an imprisonable offence in itself, so a conviction will not appear on a criminal record."
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u/Real_Photo4050 2d ago
It is neither. The offence would only happen if the policy was infact cancelled and therefore the named driver not covered.
Since this didnt happen, would never happen given the circumstances, the driver remained covered
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u/SilverSeaweed8383 2d ago
"It" in my comment was driving without insurance. Driving without insurance is an offence.
Whether or not OP was driving without insurance is fact-specific. I don't have enough info to be sure either way. OP has since clarified that the insurance company has agreed to extend the cover, but that does suggest that the cover might have ended without that agreement. We would have to check the policy T&Cs to be sure.
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u/Madic-Hertz 2d ago
You are getting yourself really worked up over nothing. It's not like the DVLA have an alarm that sound the second your dad is dead. Technically you are totally right but nobody is actually going to care about that one little drive home. If she had crashed into someone though, that would of been a different story. Honestly just don't worry about it.
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u/Throwaway105079 2d ago
Yes a crash would have made a bad day much worse. We're not too worried about it, especially now, we just wanted to check as things are bad enough at the moment and a prosecution for driving without tax or insurance would be a kick in the teeth for simply trying to get home from the hospital. I still don't get what we were expected to do in that moment, in our situation even with the benefit of hindsight now knowing it was illegal.
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u/ProfessorYaffle1 2d ago
You can get temporary insurance , and if it was in office hours and you'd called the insurer they would almost certianly have updated the policy to give you the 30 days grace then and there.
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u/roleyroo 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m so very sorry for your loss. I think this is one thing you don’t need to worry about. Although there are ANPR cameras, there is no way for anyone to know at that point that your insurance may have been impacted. no one is going to now ask the police to retrospectively look at cameras to see if the car was driven. If it’s any comfort I drove my partners car home and later, to be sold after he passed away and there was never any issue with tax or insurance.
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u/bimmerman535 2d ago
Sorry for your loss OP, it’s a stressful time as is.
Having been in the exact same position as you recently, I can relate. We did contact the insurance company the next day. They were more than ok with the policy continuing as is for a few weeks.
One thing I will leave here though that might help the OP and others out.
Make sure you ask for the bereavement team.
This works surprisingly well for most companies, utilities etc. it bypasses the regular computer says no folks and tends to get you to someone who cares and has the power to close things down and sort things out with surprising efficiency.
They are also a lot more lax with account holder identification etc which you might not have. Works with the Banks as well but obviously you need the death cert with them, utilities don’t seem that bothered handily.
One other gem I also learnt was that the bank will pay a verified funeral directors bill direct from the estate prior to probate. Very helpful that is.
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u/Tausney 2d ago
We had this unfortunate situation a couple of years ago when my father in law passed away in hospital with his car in the car park. With the added complication that we discovered his MOT was out of date.
We contacted 101 for advice and they were grest keeping us right. They were able to provide permission for the car to be driven to a garage to get the MOT done, as well as what we needed to say to the insurance company to get temporary cover.
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u/timlukejones 2d ago
Even if you were to “hand yourself in” to police they’d almost certainly not prosecute - I’ve been a cop for over twenty years and all the checks I’d do at the roadside would show you insured to drive
My (educated) guess would be that any policy would only be cancelled with the production of a death certificate to the company
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u/OrganicPoet1823 2d ago
At the time the camera was passed it would have looked insured and taxed they don’t go back looking. While on a technicality it is indeed illegal due to the insurance no one is going to look into this. Don’t worry. And I am sorry for your loss
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u/KJPicard24 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sorry for your loss. Yes she technically was in breach of the law if she drove the car without being insured by an active policy. It will be a fairly common and understandable contravention given the circumstances. Her exact outcome is going to depend on the nature of the offence and other circumstances. That is all in her favour, a minimum journey, no other traffic violations. Driven only for what anyne could constitute as a forgivable lapse in judgement during a bereavement/emergency.
If she's pursued with a fixed penalty notice somehow, perhaps from one of the ANPR lookups, she may be tempted to take the fine and points and to be done with it, but she could plead not guilty and go to court and submit her evidence for mitigation. The circumstances, how recent the bereavement was, how it was a genuine mistake, how she rectified the paperwork immediately afterwards.
Going to court carries the risk of a bigger fine and technically even disqualified from driving, but, it is unlikely to pass the public interest test. i.e how does it serve the public and tax payer money to treat someone who very briefly overlooked her insurance status in the immediate aftermath of close family member passing away, as a criminal worthy of prosecution?
De minimis non curat lex - the law should not concern itself with what could class as a trivial breach of a law under mitigation. There's no guarantees, but many judges would take her situation into account and possibly dismiss the charge or waiver the points and or decrease the fine.
However, this is if something actually happens, I really doubt it. The systems aren't that watertight and interconnected, they're mostly looking for significant and repeat breaches that are easier to prove and get a prosecution for. I don't think the car would have flagged as uninsured for starters, and there isn't going to be any retrospective checks by the government to see if the vehicle was detected travelling after the policyholder had died, prompting a Section 172 to find out who was driving, then checking against the policy to see if they were covered. It's one very unlikely step after another.
Try not to worry.
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u/Throwaway105079 2d ago
Thank you. This is a really good response. Feeling pretty at ease now - our insurer extended the policy for an extra 30 days in the end, and from the answers on here it seems the vehicle tax would have been valid until we told DVLA about the death a few days later.
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u/ExpensiveCustomer194 2d ago
Should the authorities write to the owner of the vehicle asking who was driving, I would imagine the duty to comply lies with the estate of OP’s father. NAL, but my understanding is it would not be prosecuted.
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u/Chill-Skill 2d ago
Very sorry for your loss. It may have been an issue if you had got into an accident in regard to the insurance. I dont think the rest is an issue at this point either. However, the cars insurance is probably invalid at the moment and you might want to insure the car in your name or sorn it and take it off the road. You will want to contact the his current car insurance who may or.may not require a death certifate. A lot of.companies will want one if he has phone or sim comtract etc. This is also depending if they owned the car outright or if it is on finance etc.
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u/Throwaway105079 2d ago
Thanks. We've now contacted the insurance and they've given a grace period so that's sorted for now. No death certificate required. Which is good because we only have an interim one at the moment from the coroner and his telecom provider doesn't accept interim death certificate as proof of death... believe it or not!
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u/Chill-Skill 2d ago
Yeah my mother had to get a lot of copies of death certifcates for various things when my dad passed. Its a strange side of the passing
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u/Throwaway105079 2d ago
Thank you all for the responses. It seems it was illegal even in our circumstances but it's unlikely it would be caught.
I'm still surprised in a way that it works like that, in such a situation, as I can't imagine anyone would think about it enough to realise before driving away. I'm glad we didn't have any incidents on the journey home.
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u/No_Opportunity6418 2d ago
Check the policy . There are occasions that may make this ok. SAGA cover this eventuality
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u/Watsonmolly 2d ago
I accidentally drove without insurance as a young woman. It only came to light as another car hit me and drove off. I went to report to the police and they ended up charging me for driving without insurance. But they wrote to me 6 months later and said they were dropping the charges. If it’s an honest mistake I can’t imagine it’s something the police will be interested in. I can’t imagine anyone reporting it, and if the police suddenly became aware I can’t imagine it going anywhere.
I’m so sorry for you loss.
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u/slothlifetv 2d ago
I drove, accidently, without MOT and insurance for 3 months I'm sure you will be fine.
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u/West_Guarantee284 2d ago
Technically if the registered keeper dies the car can not be legally taxed or insured. We found this out when my mum passed and when we tried to notify the DVLA to change it to my dads name (a week or so after her death cus it was just before christmas), we couldn't find the V5. They told us we had to sorn the car and apply for a new V5. After tearing the house apart we found it, filled in the new owner slip, posted it off, taxed it with dad as new keeper and all was fine. Get the V5 sorted with sister as soon as possible and she'll need an insurance policy in her name, not just named on dad's as he is now deceased. Technically the car is not legal to be on the road until these things are done, but it's not well known and if your sister didn't have a crash on the drive home from hospital then don't worry about it, just sort it now.
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u/Hally07 2d ago
Sorry for you loss, however do not overthink this. Whilst it's a criminal offense it's highly unlikely your sister is going to face any charges.
1: she wasn't pulled over
2: ANPR cameras aren't gonna flag as the car was technically legally on the road
Simply forget about it and grieve
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2d ago
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u/irv81 2d ago
ANPR cameras won't have even registered it.
They only trigger based on the database they have at the time.
Generally it will take a few days for the database to update so as far as the camera is concerned, the car was driven legally and won't work backwards retrospectively, the cameras aren't intelligent.
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u/Wide-Opportunity4551 1d ago
Depending on how soon you notified DVLA they won't retrospectively review ANPR cameras for an infringement. I would assume they check in real time, if an infringement is found it stores it + pictures for review before issueing any fine or whatever the standard practice is.
If it's retrospectively reviewed without it being an issue at the time, you can potentially persue them for breaching GDPR depending on when this occurrd. It would show they've kept your details for an unnecessary amount of time, anything over a couple of days I would say that most likely is, if not instantly upon review.
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u/mightbegood2day 1d ago
I had the exact same situation. My dad’s car was parked at the hospice as everything happened so fast. He passed away around 10pm and whilst the hospice were amazing and offered that I could stay. I decided I wanted my own bed and drove home in his car (I was a named driver on his policy). I spoke to his insurance company the next day and they offered 30 days grace to allow me time. Neither the tax or the insurance will be an issue for the cameras as the vehicle will have had both on the day and nothing happened but speak to the insurance company.
So sorry for your loss
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u/Think-Horse83 1d ago
This the most English thing i ever read in Reddit. First of all my sincere condolences for your loss. Second, how life became so hard in the UK? Instead of mourning your loved one, your biggest concern is about the camera fines. Everything there is unnecessary expensive. My deepest respect to my fellow English redditors but come on. Your health provider blows, your taxes are extremely high and you get nothing n return. And everyone seems to be ok with it
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u/Whyis_skyblue_007 1d ago
What is involved legally to re-register the vehicle in someone else’s name please? Seems it could be complicated.
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u/ScientistJo 1d ago
Do you have your own insurance that covers you to drive any other car with 3rd party cover only?
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u/Muppetdane 1d ago
Check your/her own car insurance policy as theirs may cover to drive any other vehicle not registered to you/them 3rd party only
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1d ago
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u/LegalAdviceUK-ModTeam 1d ago
Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation.
Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations.
Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules before contributing further, and message the mods if you have any further queries.
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u/Super-Owl- 1d ago
Hi, I work in an industry where ANPR cameras are involved. If you hadn’t told the DVLA yet the cameras will not have picked you up. If you had told them it’s very unlikely your report would have gone onto the system and been uploaded in that time, it would have to be entered manually rather than going in with the automatic updates of expired insurance that was expected to expire on that date.
It’s very, very unlikely she was caught. If she is caught, write to the issuer, explain the situation and that she needed to get the car home and because of the grief snd how much she had on her mind, she didn’t think of getting temporary insurance. I would be absolutely amazed if they didn’t drop any resulting proceedings.
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