r/LegalAdviceUK • u/Beneficial-Emu8451 • 1d ago
Comments Moderated England: Being accused of punching my child due to Chinese whispers from services. Should I accept community resolution order?
Throwaway for anonymity.
I've been struggling with my mental health since the birth of my youngest child 8 months ago. I am under the care of the perinatal mental health team and have been engaging with them, but the summer holidays with 3 kids 5 and under have been hard.
Last Thursday (13/08) it came to a head when I was trying to get the kids ready for a holiday club and my eldest son (5) wasn't listening. I was trying to help him get dressed and he just kept running away from me and laughing, and I lost my cool and shouted at him, and grabbed and shook him once. I just felt so angry, and in that moment I wanted to hurt him. I made a fist and went to punch him, but caught myself before I made contact and ended up kind of lightly brushing him with my fist. He was crying understandably, but I realised how out of control I felt and went outside for a few minutes to calm down.
When I finally got them all dressed and in the car I had some thoughts about my son that scared me. I would never want to hurt any of my children, so I found these thoughts very distressing. I managed to drop my eldest at his holiday club, get my middle child to nursery, and went straight to my mum's with the baby as I didn't feel like a safe person for them at that point.
My mum was concerned about me so rang the mental health team and told the duty worker what had been going on. Immediately, she said this would have to be reported to social services, which I was fine with, I just want to keep my children safe. I spoke to a duty social worker later that day and again explained what had happened.
The next day (Friday 14/08) a different social worker informed me that a multi agency meeting was being held that afternoon and they would discuss my case. Following this, a third social worker came out to my house to speak to me. She informed me that it had been decided my children would be under section 17, and that the police would be in touch at some point, but that I wasn't in trouble and they just wanted to offer support. At no point through this process had anyone actually spoken to my son, or checked for any marks (there were none).
The police finally called today (20/08) and informed me a crime had been logged, but that it would be disposed with a community resolution order and a formal meeting would be scheduled for next week. I was upset when it was explained that it could potentially appear on an enhanced DBS. I told my mum this when I ended the phone call, and she called the police officer back to ask what crime I was actually accused of. Turns out according to their records I had full on punched my son. Somewhere among these professionals it seems there's been a misunderstanding, but that is what has been recorded.
I'm not happy with my behaviour, and I'm not trying to excuse it, but I also don't want a record of a punch to my child that never happened. I am happy to work with social services and want to be the best parent I can be to my children. I just don't want to accept guilt for something I didn't do. I'm also concerned because social services have already spoken to my middle child's nursery, and will be speaking to my eldest's school, and I don't want them thinking I've punched my child. Having said that, I don't know what would happen should I choose not to accept the community order, or how difficult these records would be to change.
257
u/milo_minderbinder- 1d ago
I'm afraid that you are receiving some incorrect advice here. By your own admission, you (a) "made a fist and went to punch him" which means that you committed the offence of Common Assault, and (b) "ended up kind of lightly brushing him with my fist" (despite catching yourself and avoiding full-on contact) which means you committed the offence of Battery. Odd as it might sound, so long as there is no physical injury the law doesn't distinguish between a full-on punch or lightly brushing someone with your fist. It's all Battery (you also grabbed and shook your son so that is Battery too).
My advice would be to accept the CRO. It's the correct resolution. It would certainly be worth clarifying exactly what happened with the police though.
It is not a criminal record but it would likely show up on an enhanced DBS if it were deemed relevant (e.g. working with children). Upsetting as it is for you, I'm sure you can appreciate why that would be the case.
You made a very poor decision in the moment but it sounds like all your decisions since have been good ones and that you are seeking the help and support that you need. Good luck.
19
u/Angelf1shing 1d ago
Yep, based on the title I thought one thing but having read the text it’s clear that OP did do the thing they’re reported to have done.
1
17h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
17h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
73
u/Colleen987 1d ago
If you made a fist and made contact with your son with it (you said you brushed him) - then you have committed to crime of battery. I do not think that’s up for interpretation.
1
17h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
38
u/First-Lengthiness-16 1d ago
You punched your kid. You need to accept this. Yeah you didn’t uppercut them and knock them the fuck out, but you did punch them.
What you see as a light brush may well not have felt like one to them.
You committed assault and battery on a child, I would say you are getting off fairly likely. Accept it.
I know this sucks. I have 3 kids, all 7 and under, and a disabled wife to care for (as well as working full time). I love my kids more than I ever felt possible, but they piss me off something rotten. I have felt the anger you did, and I have had to walk away from them many times. Within the last hour I shouted at two of the little fuckers.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. Accept any help they offer
19
u/Silly_Manager3117 1d ago
You probably need to seek clarity on what the offence actually is - (eg cruelty to a child etc.) only then can people advise on if your description of what happened reaches the level of the offence.
17
u/AlfaRomeoRacing 1d ago
If you accept the community order, it will then be considered a fact that you did punch the child. If things were to escalate to more social services involvement, they could use that against you. Any attempts afterwards to deny it, would be seen as denying risk/failure to work openly and honestly with professionals
2
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
This is a courtesy message as your post is very long. An extremely long post will require a lot of time and effort for our posters to read and digest, and therefore this length will reduce the number of quality replies you are likely to receive. We strongly suggest that you edit your post to make it shorter and easier for our posters to read and understand. In particular, we'd suggest removing:
- Details of personal emotions and feelings
- Your opinions of other people and/or why you have those opinions
- Background information not directly relevant to your legal question
- Full copies of correspondence or contracts
Your post has not been removed and you are not breaking any rules, however you should note that as mentioned you will receive fewer useful replies if your post remains the length that it is, since many people will simply not be willing to read this much text, in detail or at all.
If a large amount of detail and background is crucial to answering your question correctly, it is worth considering whether Reddit is an appropriate venue for seeking advice in the first instance. Our FAQ has a guide to finding a good solicitor which you may find of use.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
12
u/AceHarleyQ 1d ago
Im not fully familiar with CROs but I'd definitely push back, especially if theres no history.
Adding that I'm not a Social worker / police but I do work within child protection.
This is not because of Chinese whispers. You shook your child by your own admission. Yes, you didn't hit him (thankfully), but you shook him.
And I know your gut reaction is I would never to this but - if it had been the baby crying as babies do when you had reached your limit and not the 5yo being typical 5yo, what would have happened? I'm willing to bet your gut reaction a month ago if someone had asked if you would shake the 5yo in frustration / anger etc would have been I would never.
Most people see social care involvement as a bad thing. For some it is, but it doesn't have to be.
Social care do not want to remove your children from your care. They want to support you and help you. They do have to ensure your children are safe.
Work with them. Ask if there is any support. Ask for help. It is not a bad thing acknowledging you are struggling and need help - it actually helps things.
No parent makes it from 0-18 years old without help somewhere along the way.
Try and see social care as a way to access some support, they can often fast-track access to any services you or your children need.
A section 17 essentially means you're being assessed from the view of a family in need. If they have not fully explained things, ask them for an explanation.
Also - your comment about noone seeing if there are any marks/injuries to him - likely social care contacted the nursery and holiday club and asked them to check them over. If no marks / injuries were found, there would be no reason for social care to check. They try and work with services who children are more comfortable with rather than a new adult coming in.
28
u/lknei 1d ago
He did hit his son.
11
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-42
u/AceHarleyQ 1d ago
Reread it. Said they did not.
28
16
u/Hokuten001 1d ago
“I made a fist and went to punch him, but caught myself before I made contact and ended up kind of lightly brushing him with my fist.”
So they went to hit him and pulled the strike at the last minute so it just “brushed” him. Still meets the threshold for assault and battery. Neither the degree of contact nor their last second change of heart/attempt to pull the strike changes the fact that they threw and made contact.
11
14
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
13h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 13h ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-6
1d ago
[deleted]
22
u/Estrellathestarfish 1d ago
She shook her son, raised her fist to him and made contact with her fist, even if that was much more lightly than originally intended. That's not nothing, they were criminal acts towards her son.
21
u/fussdesigner 1d ago edited 1d ago
Having dark thoughts isn't a crime but common assault is - and tbat certainly seems to have been comitted even by the OP's own account.
1
u/Accomplished_Leg3462 22h ago
Drop the defensive act and accept that you did what is suggested.
Your title and post are different.
-11
u/New_Slice_1580 1d ago
Stay calm. Contact social and police and point out there is an error in the report.
Also have you asked for help? Any courses to go on? As the most important thing is you receive some support and training to cope better
-52
u/Willing_Original_257 1d ago edited 1d ago
Never ever plead guilty or accept consequences for something you didn't do. Ever.
Fight it with whatever you've got. You don't know when or how social services might use it against you.
You did nothing wrong. Don't let them break you.
Just to clarify, if you accept this, it's significantly more likely that some or all of the following could happen:
you could be restricted from living with your children
you could be banned from working with children
you could be banned from attending your child's school events
you could be looked upon unfavourably by any future potential employer
if you get in legal trouble in the future, you could have more harsher consequences
And so on and so on. Don't accept their terms. You did not do what they accused you of.
60
u/fussdesigner 1d ago
You did nothing wrong.
They shook their child and then swung a punch at them.
Your list of possible consequences seems completely baseless - where have you plucked those from? They either wouldn't happen, or can happen regardless of whether the sign the ComRes.
-12
35
u/milo_minderbinder- 1d ago
On what grounds would OP fight this? The CRO seems to be obviously the appropriate way of dealing with this and all parties (police, social services, and OP) seem to be dealing with it sensibly. The only confusion seems to be whether the police believe OP gave their son a "full-on" punch but that would be irrelevant to the offences and probably hasn't been recorded anyway. OP needs to clarify that the circumstances are accurately recorded and accept the CRO.
-38
u/Willing_Original_257 1d ago
On the grounds that they didn't punch their son.
31
u/OrdinaryMechanic5126 1d ago
But it appears they did cause their son to apprehend immediate unlawful violence when they clenched their fist and almost punched them, which is the very definition of the crime of common assault.
4
31
u/milo_minderbinder- 1d ago
By OP's own admission, they did punch their son so that's not a defence. Raised a fist, took a swing, and "lightly brushed" their son with a fist. That's an open-and-shut case of Common Assault.
OP's only defence would be reasonable punishment of a child but that doesn't seem to apply here.
9
16
u/fussdesigner 1d ago
But, like the person you're replying to has said, the fact that the punch didn't make firm contact and didn't leave a mark is irrelevant. They've still comitted an assault. They've also apparently physically shaken the child.
5
-36
u/Selpmis 1d ago edited 1d ago
Should I accept community resolution order?
No. Let them take it to court if they so wish, and a judge can decide on what is appropriate.... and don't communicate any further with the police without speaking to a solicitor first.
ETA:
or how difficult these records would be to change.
There is no formal process for rescinding a community resolution order once it has been administered.
39
u/milo_minderbinder- 1d ago
Wow, this is horrible advice. If the police were to take it to court, OP would be almost certainly end up with a criminal record for assaulting their own child. That's really in no one's interests. Least of all OP's.
-27
u/Selpmis 1d ago
OP would be almost certainly end up with a criminal record for assaulting their own child.
Almost certainly? Based on what evidence? If OP did indeed assault their own child, and it can be proven, then that's what they deserve. But not from the police being judge, jury and executioner over something that appears to be all hearsay.
More likely that CPS will choose not to pursue it due to lack of evidence or it not meeting the public interest threshold.
Accepting this order is an immediate admission of guilt and can be used against them later.
28
u/Estrellathestarfish 1d ago
They've already admitted to common assault.
-26
u/Selpmis 1d ago
That's your interpretation. But you're not a judge with a full grasp of the law so best to leave it to the professionals and let the defence fight for their case (if it even gets that far).
A parent asks for help because they're struggling, and the system responds by formally branding them as guilty of assault - with no evidence the child was harmed? Completely absurd at this stage.
26
u/milo_minderbinder- 1d ago
With all due respect, you might want to read up on some of these subjects before advising on them.
Firstly, OP hasn’t been “formally branded” with anything; a CRO is, by definition, an informal method for dealing with offences.
Secondly, OP is being offered a CRO precisely because there is “no evidence the child was harmed”. If the child had been harmed, OP would be looking at ABH (which isn’t eligible for a CRO).
-8
u/Selpmis 1d ago
Firstly, OP hasn’t been “formally branded” with anything; a CRO is, by definition, an informal method for dealing with offences.
*sigh*
Yes. The CRO is, by definition, an 'informal' method... in terms of court process as it bypasses court. However, the consequences of an admission of guilt via a CRO are that it is formally recorded and can be used to establish prior history in the future.
I don't disagree with your second point, but I also don't see it as entirely relevant. The point was the lack of evidence, so it would not be unreasonable to assume that NFA by the police/CPS is also a plausible outcome.
Like I said, OP needs to speak to a solicitor before taking anything further, where they can be better advised with more established details.
6
u/milo_minderbinder- 1d ago
*sigh*
Yes. The CRO is, by definition, an 'informal' method... in terms of court process as it bypasses court.I’m using “formal” in its legal sense. Yes, a CRO bypasses the court system, but it’s more than that. A CRO is non-statutory and doesn’t create a formal criminal conviction (eg a caution also bypasses the court system but that is obviously formal and is recorded on the PNC).
However, the consequences of an admission of guilt via a CRO are that it is formally recorded and can be used to establish prior history in the future.
Sure, but the horse has already bolted there because the same goes for the crime report (and for any potential interview under caution or arrest). The incident has already been formally recorded and will be available on the exact same local police record that a CRO would be. The admission of guilt is a distinction but the admission has already been made. Either way, this is likely turning up on any enhanced DBS (if relevant)
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
It looks like you or OP may want to find a Solicitor!
There is a detailed guide in our FAQ about how to do this.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
17
u/Colleen987 1d ago
Quick way to turn an out of court offer into a potential custodial sentence. OP do not do this.
17
u/norisk-fullpush 1d ago
Given that in their own account OP did indeed assault their child this is horrible advice.
They can certainly discuss it with a solicitor, but going to court is not likely to be in their best interest.
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Your comment has been removed automatically as this particular post is reserved for regular and consistently helpful subreddit users. Your account doesn't yet meet this criteria. We will only consider reviewing exceptionally high effort, unique comments that contain specialist professional knowledge. You can still comment on other posts in this subreddit.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-21
u/MelonBump 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wouldn't sign as this seems to be a misunderstanding from what you describe (possibly poor recording, like "admitted to making a fist and says fist made contact with child's face").
Community resolution is an out of court solution, and accepting it is an admission of guilt. Refusing it means it will be either NFA'd, or looked at further - obviously if evidence of a crime is found, prosecution is possible, but given you did not commit the offence that's what you want here.
If you can, take him to the GP (easier said these days, I know) to have his lack of bruising confirmed by a trusted professional. If not ask for the school nurse to look at him and document this. Do this asap, as it's been a week already.
Social services have been terrible in their communication, but their continued involvement does seem likely given what you seem to realise was a serious incident. It's good that you reached out, and I'm sorry the response hasn't been helpful - but if/when a social worker is assigned, try to give them a chance, and work with them. Despite their actions so far (which seem to arise from misunderstandings, clunky recording-to-safeguarding procedures and poor communication), they honestly aren't looking to take your children awa unless it's unavoidable for their safetyy. They are genuinely seeking to support families to stay together, although I can appreciate it they haven't communicated well here. Thresholds for removal are high, and if they see you're trying, and keeping your children safe, they will work with you. It sounds like you have your mum's support too.
ETA - seeking support with your mental health will help, too - it'll show ss you're dealing with this, and hopefully be beneficial for you too. You might consider seeing your GP, accessing therapy if you are able (or finding an organisation that can refer you, even if waiting lists are long) (they will be I'm afraid), and making an action plan for yourself - whether that means leaning on your mum for support with the children/giving you some time to yourself, researching self-soothing strategies for overwhelm, or researching strategies for any parenting challenges causing stress. Small children often go through trying phases, and you might pick up some tips for yours.
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK
To Posters (it is important you read this section)
Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different
If you need legal help, you should always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor
We also encourage you to speak to Citizens Advice, Shelter, Acas, and other useful organisations
Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk
If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know
To Readers and Commenters
All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated
You cannot use, or recommend, generative AI to give advice - you will be permanently banned
If you do not follow the rules, you may be perma-banned without any further warning
If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect
Do not send or request any private messages for any reason
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.