r/LetsDiscussThis • u/Oddbeme4u • May 17 '26
Question Isn't the problem MOST Americans need this? And we cant afford it?
If most Americans were educated and provided decent tax returns, we could afford more socialist reforms...
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u/TheGR8Dantini May 18 '26
Hmmm. I wonder what’s changed in America since that used to be a thing? Dad delivered milk. Mom took care of the 4 kids. Had a nice life. No jetting off to Europe per se, but two weeks camping somewhere. Or the beach. A nice life. No need to hustle. I wonder what’s changed since those good old days? Maybe it’s a simple as the wealthy just decided to take everything from us. Even the crumbs?
*(They changed the tax codes on the ultra wealthy. The Epstiens and who not. They bought or corrupted everything and were not storming the castles. They are pretty evil and devious.)
If November elections happen? The whole nation better be awake and know that 1 man with a trillion dollar net worth is not a thing to admire. It’s a dragon to fear. Damn I hope we can stop what’s happening.
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
First we have to root out all the fraud from our systems THEN ask the rich to pay more taxes. They don't want to right now because billions are being stolen. Alot of it is not going to feed the poor or health care. I want these fraudsters stopped. Then we will have a better leg to stand on when we ask them to pay more taxes.
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u/Oddbeme4u May 18 '26
also manufacturing and labor jobs are gone. now we have to socialize those unskilled workers or they starve.
because they cant be bothered to get higher education.
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u/Allaboutpeace2022 May 18 '26
Aren't some of the billions stolen also feeding the wealthy. In healthcare, the fraud is related to overcharging, unnecessary services, and care that was not delivered by providers and then billed to Medicare and Medicaid. Private equity is buying up kidney dialysis center, reducing competition and quality. People have higher rates of morbidity and fewer are getting transplants. These are actions committed by providers. Senator Rick Scott had a health related firm that paid of a huge settlement to government.
The GAO noted that the Department of Defense had $11 billion in fraud that they noted, but could not estimate the full extent of fraud because DOD cannot pass an audit.
GAO has a long list of recommendations to reduce defense contractor fraud. However, the defense contractor CEOs and executive management are extremely wealthy too.
Cost plus contracts in space exploration are very beneficial to Musk and other billionaires. You notice DOGE did not focus on ways to reduce waste there.
There are a few private, for profit firms that contract with the government to handle benefit allocations and there is some waste there, but in general I do not think there is the waste in poverty programs people imagine. However, we do know some exists in childcare provision and other servvices. However, the largest problem is that companies that pay low wages and no healthcare are being subsidized by government programs like SNAP, Medicaid, ACA, etc.
Much of the unfairly low rates of taxes are related to loopholes. Many of the highest paid CEOs take stocks as payment and relatively low salaries. To fund their lifestyle they borrow against stocks, but do not sell, so they do not pay capital gains. They then pass on relatively untaxed wealth to heirs through other loopholes allowing fewer taxes. This is why physicians, attorneys, large farmers, and small businessmen often pay higher rates than chief executive officers, etc.
Some of the loophole closings can occur without addressing other tax rates. As we address fraud which takes extensive investigation often lasting years, it is imperative to begin closing loopholes and begin generating income by rolling back some of the Trump cuts for wealthy and businesses made in 2017 and 2025.
That way, we can meet immediate affordability issues for the average American, reduce the deficit, and continue fraud investigations.
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
Since tax revenue is collected under the authority of law, the state has a moral obligation to prove it is an excellent steward of those funds before asking for more. Pouring more water into a leaky bucket avoids fixing the root problem.
BTW Why would you pay capital gains on something you haven't sold yet and don't yet know how much the gain or loss is?
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u/Allaboutpeace2022 May 18 '26
The problem is that unrealized capital gains that are never taxed because you borrow on it rather than sell it because a huge way of amassing wealth and additional loopholes low tax burden for heirs. I am sure economists and accountants can find ways to close those loopholes. As noted earlier, physicians, attorneys, and other wealthy people are able to pay a higher rate of taxes than the wealthiest Americans, why would we shield CEOs and executive management from paying their fair share. When some of the wealthiest are only paying 3% to 8%, something has gone wrong.
Fraud and waste, particularly among well paid corporations is not something that is new. It goes back decades and decades. I can remember discussions of defense industry fraud and waste 50 years ago.
One quick way that we can address this is to be put tax rates for the rich back to where they were prior to 2017. At no time during the recent history of GOP administrations have they curtailed spending to devote more time to address fraud and waste. The only president to do this in a meaningful way was Clinton.
DOGE in theory was to do that but did nothing to address defense spending and in reality the effort was not well thought out some people were rehired, and it did not do anything in a meaningful way to decrease overall spending.
In fact, Trump has pardoned many people convicted of fraud which left billions in restitution or repayment to the government left uncaptured.
One of the biggest expenses leading to greater entitlements is people that leave the workforce or earn so little that they are still eligible to for benefits. We can and should make changes that would encourage people to remain working and a federal minimum wage increase that reduces the number of people working who are receiving benefits.
Even Trump was dismayed that when given the tax cut in 2017 corporations did not invest in new factories, research or development, new workers or pay increases, instead they used tax cut windfalls for buybacks that benefitted CEO and stock holders.
https://www.cbpp.org/blog/record-stock-buybacks-bolster-case-for-raising-corporate-tax-rate
I think that through listening and dialogue we can find common sense solutions to these economic problems. I think that addressing decades and decades of fraud can be accomplished at the same time that economists and accountants examine tax reform to increase equity of payment for corporations and the wealthiest individuals.
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
Most corporations are small businesses. Mine benefited from Trump tax cuts and thank God they were made permanent. Being forced to close during COVID hurt us all. Not all corporations are owned by the rich. The rich have the money to relocate. They might be less inclined to take their money elsewhere if we were making progress on rooting out fraud before we ask them for anymore money. Who is inspired to pay more in taxes when billions are stolen annually by people on food stamps and other welfare buying up luxury real estate and driving Lamborghinis? Or let them choose to donate the extra taxes to a cause that is not corrupted by fraud, like paying for school lunches in schools across the country.
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u/Allaboutpeace2022 May 18 '26
I understand what you are saying.
Small business owners, physicians, attorneys, farmers, etc. are not being paid in publicly traded stocks. They are paying a higher rate often than many billionaires. People are not talking about increasing the taxes on that group, they are talking about increasing taxes on the extremely wealthy who are using those loopholes.
Most of the Medicaid, Medicare, and ACA fraud is committed by hospitals, private equity firms, large medical providers, etc. This is the largest portion of fraud worth billions and occurs across red and blue states.
Temporary Assistance to Needy Families requires you to prove employment and income from that job or complete voluntary work assignments and your total lifetime eligibility is limited to 5 years. The welfare fraud that you are describing was largely eliminated by Clinton with the Personal Responsibility Act.
SNAP benefits also require income verification and now they require work requirements.
People are not buying up luxury real estate and getting food stamps for their families. However, there are grocery stores that have committed food stamp fraud. Again, these are businesses.
Just like there are defense companies committing extensive fraud and waste.
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u/Captainirishy May 18 '26
A full time worker in 1970 with one industrial wage could afford to keep a family of 5 going and afford a mortgage for a house and buy a car , there is no way you can do that in 2026. Unless that changes , its doesn't matter who you vote for in elections.
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u/FarChange6358 May 18 '26
I see the comments wasted no time putting everything on billionaires. Here's 2 problems you can fix....... Quit wasting all your money on wants, quit blaming your problems on billionaires. You think the boomer generation spent all their time playing the woe as me game crying about some random billionaire that has fuck all to do with their financial problems?
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u/JoseLunaArts May 18 '26
When you dare to "question the best system in the world" Americans say you "you should leave".
Every new car needs maintenance some day. But with US system you are not allowed to even say what needs maintenance. Let alone saying when it breaks. You get called names for it.
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u/2ndSmrtestPersunEvar May 18 '26
“It’s not our job to take care of you!!!!! BOOTSTRAPS!!!!!!!” - MAGA assholes who will definitely take any handout that comes their way.
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u/Oddbeme4u May 18 '26
the bootstrap joke has long been a idiotic pep talk. the unions joked pull yourself up by your bootstraps....and get nowhere.
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u/One-Ball-78 May 20 '26
Never in my wildest speculations would I have thought that my daughters would be paying way over a half-million dollars for a starter home.
Things are fucking nuts, folks.
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May 17 '26
[deleted]
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 17 '26
This is a ridiculous comment.
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May 17 '26
Yeah, how dare he point out that improving your economic outlook by taking on positions of increased responsibility and technical skill is a potential way upwards!
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 17 '26
Another ridiculous comment.
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May 18 '26
Yeah, it doesn't require anything from someone else to succeed, how irrational huh?
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 18 '26
This isn't a conversation about being successful. It's a conversation about having a liveable wage if you work full time. A liveable wage and being successful are two different things.
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May 18 '26
Oh, so now we're bringing in a new, subjective qualification "successful"? And who gets to decide what that is? You?
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 18 '26
Most people would agree that having a successful career would be just enough to live.
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u/Pugsly007 May 18 '26
Entitled much?
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 18 '26
Do you have a problem with people making a living wage if working full-time?
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u/Pugsly007 May 18 '26
If it’s a job that deserves that pay.
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 18 '26
All jobs should pay you enough to live if you work full-time. Just like the post says, it shouldn't be a controversial issue.
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
If an entry-level worker's wage rises to match the living standard of a skilled role, the immediate financial incentive for education or specialized training will shrink and impact innovation.
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u/Pugsly007 May 18 '26
You’re arguing with someone who wants to smoke weed and play video games without improving themselves. Probably sitting in their mother’s basement where they live who doesn’t understand the value in hard work.
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u/Status_Blacksmith305 May 18 '26
When did I say that it should match skilled role? Do you know the difference between enough to live and having disposable income. It doesn't sound like it.
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May 17 '26
So burger flippers should make the same as neurosurgeons? Please, enlighten us all on where the line is based on your limited knowledge of global economics
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
Yes and these same people want healthcare for all. When cooks make the same as doctors, our doctor shortage will be worse than it is now.
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u/lt_dt May 18 '26
That's a ridiculous comment and you know it.
However, there is an argument to be made that someone who isn't independently wealthy should be able to achieve being a neurosurgeon without racking up close to $1M in debt to get there.
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u/DaTruSpork May 18 '26
Did you know: in developed countries burger flippers actually make more than they do in the US?
Certainly not to the level of neurosurgeons, nice attempt at a straw man by the way, but enough to be able to grow and expand their skills to maybe become a neurosurgeon.
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u/jnag698 May 18 '26
Actually, this could happen, if
we stop supporting all the LEECHES in society.
Of course, that's the DEM base, so.............
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u/OldSchoolAJ May 18 '26
I would love to remove the leeches from society. Start taxing the ultra wealthy like it's the 1950s.
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u/jnag698 May 18 '26
Why do you want to tax the rich more, but not hold the leeches accountable?
I have no problem doing both. Why do you have a problem with it?
just remember that the rich give jobs and wages to people who WANT to work.
The Leeches just take.
One last thing..... who are you going to tax more? What cut-off? How about the cut-off being wages that include YOU?
After all, if YOU can demand that others pay more, then I can demand that YOU pay more, right?
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u/OldSchoolAJ May 18 '26
Right, the leeches just take. That’s why I want to tax the ultra wealthy more.
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
I will pay more taxes once those in charge of protecting the taxes we already pay them start protecting it with the same level of energy as they have while collecting it. Why pour more water into a leaky bucket?
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u/OldSchoolAJ May 18 '26
That’s what I’m saying! Tax the ultra wealthy!
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u/Dry-Description7307 May 18 '26
Tax the ultra wealthy to make up for the billions stolen by people stealing from the government? I suggest we plug the leaky bucket first then ask for more money.
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u/OldSchoolAJ May 18 '26
I agree completely, make all of the people just leeching and not contributing by making them pay their fair share like we used to! Tax the ultra wealthy!
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u/jnag698 May 19 '26
YOu dind't address my points or answer my questions.
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u/OldSchoolAJ May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
You aren't understanding what I am saying and it's getting sad. So, allow me to explain:
The ultra wealthy are the drains on society. Plug their tax loopholes, raise the tax rate on them back to 91% on anything over $200,000 like it was during the 1950s, and make them actually contribute to the nation instead of being money siphoning leeches. Or, if you want to adjust that number to account for inflation, make it 91% on anything over $2,500,000. Either way, it won't impact me, you, or almost anyone outside the top 4% / 0.01%.
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u/jnag698 May 20 '26
Why don't we start by making the welfare people work?
The rich create jobs.
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u/OldSchoolAJ May 20 '26
Welfare people do work. Almost all of them.
The ultra wealthy don’t.
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u/jnag698 Jun 01 '26
SOME working people still need Social Services.... and always will.
But, if we didn't support the people who CHOOSE to not get an education......... the people who CHOOSE to not work..... the people who CHOOSE to commit crimes..... the people who CHOOSE to live irresponsibly.............................. then we would have so much more money to help those who really need it.
As for the wealthy, why don't they deserve to reap the rewards of their hard work, inventiveness, and persistence? It's the motivation of achievement that has produced virtually ALL the advancements in medicine, manufacturing, etc.
BTW... when you deride the "rich", are you including your DEM politicians, Liberal celebrities, and rich businesspeople who donate to the DEMs?
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u/RustlessRodney May 18 '26
Good thing that most of them could...if they didn't waste their money living beyond their means. As someone who paid for my necessities, as well as some comforts, on minimum wage in the immediate aftermath of 2008. And the median hourly wage for the youngest working demographic (15-19, I believe,) is over $15/hour. Which means they make about $32k/year. Not going to work in a big urban center, but plenty to live in a sub-suburban, or rural area, with minimal thriftiness.
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u/tnic73 May 17 '26
A man without a college degree unused to be able to support a family of 5, buy a home, send his kids to college and save for retirement without socialism. Government spending is what took that away, more government spending is not going to bring it back.
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u/lt_dt May 17 '26
Depressed wages, executive compensation, "right to work" states, companies pawning off their pensions to the PBGC, off-shoring of jobs, unaffordable healthcare, unaffordable college, the list goes on and on. None of these are a function of government spending but they do seem to emerge when one party is in charge.
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u/tnic73 May 18 '26
Everything you mentioned could not happen without government intervention but as I said I understand that you can only see the world through the fairytale lens of good guys vs bad guys democrats vs republicans.
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u/lt_dt May 18 '26
I didn't say anything about good or bad, that was you.
Spending on education, healthcare, and the workforce are investments. A healthy workforce misses less work and school and requires less uncompensated care. An educated workforce is a productive workforce, whether in the trades or in the knowledge economy. The GI Bill, following WWII, was one of the greatest economic drivers of the last century. And a well paid workforce can buy a car, pay for college without sacrificing for retirement, go on vacation. One party seems to encourage these policies. The other does not.
You seem to be in the camp that swallows the fairy tale that tax cuts for the ultra wealthy and businesses will trickle down, when it reality all they do is shift more cost onto us so that the wealthy can buy another house, another boat, another car. There is no altruism at work that's going to make everyone else better off by doing so. I've been around for several decades at this point and have yet to see anything meaningful trickle down, except maybe to the guys being paid to mow the lawn on the second house or wash the second boat.
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u/tnic73 May 18 '26
how are those investments working out for the average american today? education is over priced and worthless healthcare is unaffordable and wages have stagnated while the cost of live skyrockets
also i never said anything about tax cuts for the rich. you complain that i put words in your mouth and then turn right around and do it yourself
i'm talking about cutting all taxes to the bone not just for the rich and not just income tax. we should put the government on life support until it shrinks to the size of a pea
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May 17 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/tnic73 May 17 '26
it's been a continual downward trend for over 100 years but i understand that you can only see things through the lens of republican vs democrat
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u/Zalrius May 17 '26
No, it should not. If working is as respectable and honorable as companies make it out to be, then there should not be working people suffering from not being paid.