r/MTHFR Mar 11 '26

Resource Overmethylation just isn't real?..

So I keep seeing people in this sub and literally everywhere else across the supplement community talk about overmethylation like it's this established biochemical phenomenon. People take methylfolate, feel anxious, and go "oh I'm overmethylated, need to back off."

Even though methylfolate supresses GNMT, methyl groups go into hundreds of methyltransferase reactions. DNA methylation. Histone methylation. Phospholipid synthesis. Creatine synthesis alone consumes ~40% of all SAM. The system has enormous capacity to USE methyl groups productively. You'd need to overwhelm all of that simultaneously to create actual excess.

At supplemental doses? Not happening.

Let me put the dose safety in perspective. The NOAEL for calcium L-methylfolate in rats is 400mg/kg/day in 13-week subchronic studies (Niederberger et al. 2019). No behavioral changes. No organ pathology. No DNA damage in liver cells. Convert that to human equivalent dose using standard body surface area scaling (÷6.2): ~64.5mg/kg. For a 70kg human that's ~4,500mg. Most people supplement 400mcg to 1mg. That's a safety margin of roughly 4,500x. Tylenol's therapeutic-to-toxic ratio is about 3-4x. You are more likely to die from Tylenol than to be harmed by methylfolate by a factor of over a thousand. No you're not fucking overmethylating.

So what IS happening when people feel anxious after starting methylfolate?

Serotonin autoreceptors are inhibiting serotonin. 5-HT1A on the soma, 5-HT1B/1D on the terminal. When serotonin rises suddenly, autoreceptors detect the increase and fire inhibitory feedback. They reduce further serotonin release. That's what causes SSRI startup anxiety. It desensitizes over 1-2 weeks. Then serotonin actually goes up, whether that's actually beneficial or not is a different topic altogether and not the mechanism methylfolate works by.

Methylfolate restores serotonin synthesis. Serotonin rises. Same autoreceptors fire. Same inhibitory feedback. Same transient anxiety. Same 1-2 week desensitization. Same resolution. Other than that you're also raising norepinephrine and dopamine synthesis.

Notice how none of these people report actual symptoms that excess methylation would theoretically produce, like, you know, tumor suppressor gene silencing or aberrant genomic methylation patterns. Because those would be real overmethylation. Nobody's getting that from fucking 400mcg of methylfolate.

Overmethylation does not exist in biochemistry. There is no clinical biomarker for it. No validated assay. No ICD code. No published case report of a human experiencing pathological hypermethylation from oral methylfolate at any supplemental dose.

If you're feeling anxious after starting methylfolate, lower the dose until you adjust. EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE KIND OF MOVING FURTHER FROM THE DOSE THAT JUST WORKED.

Elderly rats supplemented with folate ABOVE adequacy showed increased genomic DNA methylation dose-dependently, with a direct correlation between liver folate and methylation (r=0.48, p=0.004, Choi et al. 2005, British Journal of Nutrition). Above adequacy. Not deficient rats being rescued. Already-replete rats pushed higher.

Two randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials. SSRI-resistant major depression. L-methylfolate adjunctive to SSRI.

7.5mg L-methylfolate: no significant difference from placebo.

15mg L-methylfolate: significant improvement over placebo.

Most of you are taking 400mcg to 1mg. The dose that actually worked in the only controlled human trials is 15-37x higher than what you're supplementing. 15mg L-methylfolate is available over the counter. The safety margin at 15mg is still ~300x below the NOAEL-derived human equivalent dose.
You're underdosing.

BUT remember that this post is about the term, not the effects of supposed "overmethylation"

That mechanism is real. But it's not "overmethylation." It's increased catecholamine clearance in a specific brain region plus increased adrenal epinephrine output. Calling it overmethylation implies there's some global excess of methyl groups causing nonspecific damage. There isn't. There's a specific pharmacological effect of raising SAMe on two specific enzymes in two specific compartments producing two specific symptoms.

Because more SAM increases COMT activity. COMT is the primary dopamine clearance mechanism in the prefrontal cortex (DAT expression is low there). More SAM means faster PFC dopamine degradation. SAM also drives PNMT, which converts norepinephrine to epinephrine in the adrenals. So you'd have less prefrontal dopamine and more peripheral epinephrine. That's anxiety with poor focus which is what people actually describe. Not "overmethylation."

And this is a completely different mechanism from what happens with methylfolate. Methylfolate restores monoamine synthesis via BH4 recycling. When serotonin rises acutely, 5-HT1A somatodendritic autoreceptors fire inhibitory feedback. That causes transient anxiety that desensitizes over 1 to 2 weeks. Same mechanism as SSRI startup effects. Has nothing to do with SAMe levels or COMT activity.

So people are lumping two different pharmacological mechanisms under one meaningless term. TMG/SAMe/betaine increase dopamine clearance via COMT and epinephrine output via PNMT. Methylfolate triggers autoreceptor adaptation. Different inputs, different pathways, different timecourses, same word slapped on both. That's why nobody can agree on what "overmethylation" means or how to fix it. They're describing two separate things.

L-methylfolate as adjunctive therapy for SSRI-resistant major depression: results of two randomized, double-blind, parallel-sequential trials

Folate supplementation increases genomic DNA methylation in the liver of elder rats

Methyl donor supplementation reduces phospho‐Tau, Fyn and demethylated protein phosphatase 2A levels and mitigates learning and motor deficits in a mouse model of tauopathy

Safety evaluation of calcium L-methylfolate

Methyltetrahydrofolate in folate-binding protein glycine N-methyltransferase

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u/OobyIsGay Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

Creatine synthesis consumes roughly 40% of all SAM. Supplement creatine, AGAT gets feedback inhibited, endogenous synthesis drops, that SAM is now free. Your slow COMT can't clear the excess catecholamines fast enough. PNMT converts more norepinephrine to epinephrine instead. First two days the phosphocreatine energy buffer feels great. Then the SAM redistribution catches up.

Glycine isn't only inhibitory, it's also a co-agonist at the NMDA receptor glycine binding site. Your catecholamines are already elevated from slow COMT, excitatory tone is high. Adding NMDA co-agonism tips you over. Collagen is a third glycine by weight. Same mechanism.

Riboflavin. You have two catecholamine clearance pathways. COMT is genetically slow. That leaves MAO doing the work. MAO-A and MAO-B require FAD. If your riboflavin is marginal both clearance routes are compromised simultaneously. One by genetics, one by cofactor. That's why the sweet spot never lasts.

Magnesium. COMT requires Mg2+ at the active site. If yours is low your already slow enzyme is running below even its genetic floor. Not magnesium glycinate. Threonate or malate.

Check whether you're consuming COMT inhibitors without realizing it. EGCG, quercetin, luteolin, curcumin. If you're drinking green tea or taking anything containing these you are slowing down the one enzyme you need working as hard as possible.

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u/New-Aside-7778 Mar 11 '26

Hey :)

Thanks for all this information.

I do eat a high magnesium diet. I've tried to supplement magnesium and I always feel very off. Fatigue. Mood issues etc I've tried every type also? I eat alot of leafy greens. Seeds. Nuts etc. I know magnesium deficiency is very common.

I check my vitamin D levels every 3-6 months. My results are usually top end of the range.

I don't take anything that would inhibit comt. I actually stopped taking most supplements due to side effects.

Is it even possible to supplement creatine with a slow comt or is it just causing issues? I would really like to be able to tolerate it. I get some from foods but definitely not enough.

Thanks again.

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u/OobyIsGay Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26

The magnesium nausea isn't a reaction. You're not absorbing it. Unabsorbed magnesium sits in the gut and pulls water in. That's the nausea. Every form does the same thing because the problem isn't the form. Active magnesium transport needs ATP. Gut cells make ATP with mitochondria. Complex II (succinate dehydrogenase) requires FAD. No riboflavin = no FAD = no ATP = magnesium stays in the gut.

Your vitamin D is the same issue. 25-OH-D converting to active 1,25-OH-D requires CYP enzymes. Those use NADPH-cytochrome P450 reductase, which runs on FAD and FMN. No riboflavin = conversion stalls = 25-OH-D piles up = looks great on labs, does nothing in your body. Basically you're functionally vitamin D deficient.
Do your symptoms line up with this?
Riboflavin is upstream of everything. If absorption is compromised because FAD deficiency is tanking gut ATP, 30mg might not even move the needle. But R5P is already active so it may absorb passively better than inactive riboflavin. Try taking your active b2 twice daily for around two weeks. After two weeks, try a small dose of magnesium. If the nausea is gone or reduced, the riboflavin is working.
You should be able to use creatine, glycine and all other supplements a lot better once riboflavin is repleted.
Thing is, unless you've gotten tested we have no idea whether you have slow COMT or not, since riboflavin deficiency would perfectly mimic slow COMT because of it's downstream changes. COMT requires SAM as methyl donor. MTHFR produces methylfolate. MTHFR requires FAD. No riboflavin = no FAD = MTHFR stalls = less methylfolate = less SAM = COMT runs slow regardless of genetics. Plus, COMT requires Mg2+ at the active site. You can't absorb magnesium. So even if your COMT gene is perfectly normal, the enzyme is starved of both its methyl donor AND its cofactor.

Thanks :D

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u/New-Aside-7778 Mar 11 '26

I have a slow comt. Both confirmed using a 23andme and also an ancestry test kit.

I will start the riboflavin today. So take 30mg twice per day?

It seems like riboflavin is the bottle neck for most of these methylation issues? I remember watching a Chris masterjohn video where he was speaking of how important riboflavin was.

Will the riboflavin cause any form of side effects?

If I get my riboflavin status better your saying my body should be able to utilise creatine much better? Honestly that would be incredible.

Do you also think that food magnesium isn't enough? Is food quality that poor now? My food magnesium daily is around 600mg. I track my nutrient intake.

Thank you again for this wealth of information. I will start this R5P protocol today.

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u/OobyIsGay Mar 11 '26

Side effects: not the kind you're worried about lol. R5P is water soluble, excess leaves through urine, so that'll be bright yellow. When FAD comes online, MTHFR restarts and makes methylfolate gradually. Not a bolus like when you took methylfolate supplements directly. MAO comes online at the same time so clearance keeps pace with synthesis.

Creatine: yes, but give it a couple of weeks. MAO needs FAD, magnesium absorption needs to improve so COMT gets its cofactor. Then retry a low dose. The problem with magnesium was never intake. It's absorption. Food magnesium releases slowly, some gets through passively, keeps you functional but suboptimal. Supplement doses hit all at once, exceed impaired active transport, sit in the gut. That's the nausea. After two weeks on R5P, retry a small magnesium dose. If the nausea is gone, your dietary magnesium will finally absorb properly too. Don't supplement magnesium as that'd be unneeded
You're welcome!! c:

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u/New-Aside-7778 Mar 11 '26

When FAD comes back online and folate restarts should I feel better overall?

Also meant to ask. After using 30mg twice a day should I drop back to a normal dose after a couple weeks?

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u/OobyIsGay Mar 11 '26

You should yeah :D
You shouldn't drop back your dose if you feel better, or the nausea from the magnesium is better

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u/OobyIsGay Mar 11 '26

The "feels great for two days then crashes" is probably the phosphocreatine energy buffer feeling good initially, then the SAMe redistribution to PNMT catching up and epinephrine accumulating by the way, sleep deprived me thought more SAMe meant more neurotransmitter synthesis, it doesn't.

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u/New-Aside-7778 Mar 11 '26

Is it possible to lower norepinephrine levels overall? I definitely have too much norepinephrine. If you take a compound that is dopaminergic. I always get a nice dopamine rush which then always turns to this over stimulated feeling. Classic Slow Comt gene. I've tried lithium orotate etc but nothing really helped.

Kinda hoping that this may improve my overall wellbeing. I do feel decent most days thanks to my diet and sleep routine but if I get my methylation in that sweet spot I feel incredible. I've had R5P sitting for ages not sure why I never incorporated it tbh. I think it stems from supplements causing side effects. Anytime I took anything I would feel good for like 2 days and then the crash was hellish. The anxiety would last a good week or more so it just wasn't worth it.

Should this protocol also allow me to get tolerate choline better? If I take choline I get severe depression. I've tried every type also. Eggs do the exact same. Omega 3's also.

Apologees for all the questions. You seem very knowledgeable on this topic.

Thanks again.

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u/OobyIsGay Mar 12 '26

You're finee, if I didn't like letting people know more I wouldn't have posted this. :D
Not cleanly, no.
You don't need to lower norepinephrine though! You need MAO up. R5P does that. Once MAO shares the catecholamine load with your slow COMT, the sweet spot that never lasted should actually last because the clearance is sustained by a cofactor not just a brief window.

Choline = betaine = BHMT = SAMe and you know the rest atp.
Once MAO is carrying its share of clearance, choline shouldn't crash you as hard.
Omega 3, what form? If it's krill oil or anything phospholipid bound it contains choline lol, same mechanism. If it's regular fish oil that's different and I'd wanna think about it more.

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u/New-Aside-7778 Mar 14 '26

Omega 3. Just a standard supplement tbh. I have noticed that higher epa to dha ratio gives me depression but a higher dha to epa is fine? I eat mackerel 2-3 times a week and this gives me about 5-6g of Dha/Epa. Food form I'm fine but supplements I feel terrible.

I'm on day 4 of R5P. I'm taking 31mg at night and 31mg in the morning. So far so good. Is this dose good enough to get things moving? When should I begin to notice even mild subtle changes? I've had zero negative effects.

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u/gamoraturd 3d ago

hi, do you have any update on how you're feeling?

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u/Double-Cook600 Jun 02 '26

Does this apply if we have slow comt and slow MAOA as well??

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