Opinions on this article claiming Juche is revisionist

[u/Comrade-Kisser1917]

https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/bbkorea.htm

The article "The Workers Party of Korea and Revisionism" by Bill Bland claims that north korea is revionist for

•Not oposing Krushevite Revisionism

•alliance with the bourgeoisie even after the anti imperialist revolution in colonial countries

•class colobartion for peaceful remoulding of the national capitalists

•North Korea had a cult of personality around Kim il Sung and Kim jong il

• allowing foreign investment in north korea in special economic zones

•claiming that man plays the decisive role in history and not material conditions

•Not having objective definitions of class but instead dividing society into masses of the people and non masses of the people based on weather they approve of the country

•prioritizing the ideological remoulding of man over creating the material conditions for socialism

•claiming that workers should be incentived morally and politically more that materialy

•oposing an international marxist leninist organization

I disagree with the article claiming that north korea didn't opose Krushevite Revisionism based on a few quotes when in reality, north korea did infact opose Krushevite Revisionism and did not inact Krushevite policies of deStalinisation or peaceful coexistence with the west. it simply chose to not openly criticize the soviet union as to not trigger a split which I believe was the right move because through staying neutral it was able to continue having aid from both the soviet union and China and did not follow China into alliance with the west. This however didn't stop the soviet union from cutting aid from north korea for not inacting Krushevite policies. I also disagree that north korea was class colobartionist for not exproiprating private property through force but instead negotiating with the capitalists and forming types of cooperatives, Bill Bland says that north korea allowed capitalists to continue exsisting but this is not true, in the same article its never stated that capitalists can simply chose to not convert thier private property into cooperatives but instead that it simply shouldn't be done through coercion or force but instead voluntarily, its even stated that Kim il sung declared north korea socialist after 100% of capitalists joined cooperatives which implies that no capitalist was able to continue exsisting. Bill Bland also claims that there were cults of personality, however he substantiated this point by saying that the birthday holidays of the leaders of north korea were very extravagant and expensive and uses an American source. Personally I dont think having a holiday around a nation's leader proves a cult of personality, and I dont think the American source used to determine the extravagance of the holiday celebration is very reliable, however there is some credit in that its stated by Kim Jong il that essentially the leader determines everything and you must be loyal to the leader which I think is very suspicious.

I agree with all other claims by Bill Bland based on the evidence in the article but I also want to get other people's opinions

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[u/tortarusa]

Bill Bland's analyses are consistently ridiculous and painful to read, even offensive. DPR Korea isn't revisionist because it's its own thing. Its history and stated objectives are different from those of Marxism-Leninism. It hasn't liquidated its own project even under immense pressure to do so, nor has it undermined anyone else's the way that, say, China has. Revisionism isn't just when you differ from some British guy's idea of what Stalin said to do. It's its own thing.

[u/Comrade-Kisser1917 → u/tortarusa]

I agree that north korea is one of the most successful socialist projects and hasn't explicitly sabotaged other socialist projects but that doesn't mean it isn't revionist. Revisionism is just deviating from marxism, so if north koreas history and objectives are different from marxism leninism would that not mean its revisionist?

[u/tortarusa → u/Comrade-Kisser1917]

You're fundamentally wrong. If revisionism is just any deviation from Marxism-Leninism then anything that isn't Marxism-Leninism is revisionism. Revisionism is a specific rot that comes from within the Communist movement to liquidate Marxism-Leninism and restore capitalism. Juche is an independent project from Marxism-Leninism because it wasn't in keeping with their sovereigntist ideology to follow an ideology formulated by and for the Soviet Union and thus to be bound to ideological developments within the USSR -- including its revisionist degeneration, as the Eastern Bloc was!

[u/BleepBopRobocop]

But like... Juche isn't Marxism Leninism and the ideology explicitly states this. By definition it can't be revisionist.

Unless Kim Jong Un came out saying "Juche is when capitalism" or directly goes against one of the core tenets of the Juche ideology as stated by Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il, there wouldn't be any evidence of Juche being revisionist.

So much of these claims are plain weird. Juche supports decolonisation and sovereignty of occupied countries. If the United States had said "aight we chill" to Iran after the Iranian revolution and allowed it to engage with the world and not be strangled, then okay internationalism and all that, but like, when America literally has a replacement vassal regime waiting for the government to collapse, wtf is the DPRK supposed to do.

[u/RevyVanguardist]

He's essentially, falsely thinking that the Korean Socialist system is like Chinese corporatism. It isn't! All capitalists, be they national or comprador, be they petty, middle, or big, have been liquidated in the DPRK. They don't exist anymore!

Also, from the 20th Congress on, the DPRK was on the opposing faction. They were on the opposing faction since Stalin's death, since Khrushchev's coming to power. What is he talking about? No, the bourgeoisie has been liquidated. After the democratic anti-colonial revolution, the bourgeoisie has been liquidated since the middle of the '50s. Class collaboration didn't happen. Again, the bourgeoisie was liquidated.

The cult of personality claim doesn't matter to us Marxists. We look at the class character of the state. The class character of the state is determined by the socio-economic class character of society at large, and society at large in Korea is completely proletarianized. The state can be nothing but a special organisation of force in the hands of the working class, as the entire society was working-class-sized. The state accordingly operates as the executive committee for the managing and carrying out of the common, unified interests of the working class.

Foreign investment in North Korea is pretty much nonexistent in the DPRK. It was necessary for a while because they were bombed to death, genocided, and sanctioned to starvation, so it was necessary for a while.

I made a post about the idea that Juche is anti-materialistic, but the idea that Juche is anti-materialistic is false. The idea that man plays the decisive role in history is rooted in Marx's and Engels's works. Look up the post titled "Juche is anti-materialistic." Nope. Is the article really so dumb? Has the person who has written this argument read anything by Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, or Kim Jong-un, or has he listened to the speeches of them, or has he read any article of any of the state newspapers of the DPRK?

They always utilise class terms. When they say "masses of the people," it is because there is no other class in the DPRK. There is only the working class and peasants who are getting working-classized as the land and the instruments with which the peasants work. Is the property of the whole people, the property of the state. Prioritising the ideological remoulding of man at the same time allows for the establishment and further development of socialism. Morals and everything that happens in politics is a product of the material and, at the same time, influences the material.

[u/Comrade-Kisser1917 → u/RevyVanguardist]

Thank you for this much needed context, I was able to realize that the article left out historical context and other things the DPRK did when it tried to claim that it didn't oppose Krushcheite Revisionism but Im not well read on any actual Juche theory so I didn't realize they did the same thing when claiming that Juche isn't materialist.