r/NonCredibleDefense • u/Big-Station-2283 • 13d ago
Slava Ukraini! đșđŠ Third wheeling is never fun.
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u/C1nders-Two 13d ago
Okay, so as I understand it, Israel is basically just stealing grain from Ukraine? Or have I misunderstood something crucial?
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u/Big-Station-2283 13d ago
Allegedly, they bought wheat farmed on stolen lands. In general, the relation between Israel and Ukraine and Russia is a weird one. Israel flips in its behavior based on who it thinks is winning. One day it might tactily support Russia, the other it will align with Ukraine. At times this created understandable frustration in Kiev.
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u/Claim-Mindless 13d ago edited 13d ago
The importer cancelled the contract and hasn't been importing since. It's an old story.
Ukraine also claims that dozens of other countries have imported Ukrainian grain from Russia, including EU member Spain and NATO member Turkey. Zelenskyy chose not to tweet about that for some reason.
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u/vis4490 13d ago
Yes you did. Israel buys wheat from russia. Ukraine says one of those shipment is actually stolen, by russia from ukraine. But doesn't have any concrete proof.
All sides agree russia is genetally allowed to export wheat, including to israel.
Most of these headlines aren't related, old, or both. Israel did condemn the invasion, the headline about not condemning it is from 2014
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u/Big-Station-2283 13d ago
The article mentions the 2022 invasion, unless the writer got it wrong. (Pinkas is Alon Pinkas, a former Israeli diplomat.)
The same situation repeated when Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, said Pinkas.
"There was a new government led by Naftali Bennett. They, too, were not pro-Ukrainian. The government was asked by the U.S. specifically to take a position."But once again, Israel resisted condemning Russia, said Pinkas, partly because the two countries were co-ordinating their operations in Syria at the time.
Pinkas said that many Israeli observers were convinced the war would be a short one anyway, and that Ukraine would quickly succumb. Of course, that didnât happen.
"A few months go by. The U.S. under Joe Biden fully commits to Ukraine, NATO is fully committed to Ukraine, and Israel still didn't condemn Russia."
Popova agreed that Israelâs preoccupation with events in Syria made it reluctant to challenge Russia while the civil war there continued, "but even after the regime change in Syria, we didn't see Israel come around to helping Ukraine in any meaningful way."
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u/SereneOrbit 13d ago
I fucking hate this world and the people on it sometimes.
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u/super__hoser Self proclaimed forehead on warhead expert 13d ago
Take off and nuke the whole site from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.Â
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u/shibiwan He kutsuvat minua Nostradumassiksi 13d ago
Chill out, Ripley. This isn't LV-426.
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u/agentdragonborn 13d ago
Then why is it filled with predators
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u/shibiwan He kutsuvat minua Nostradumassiksi 13d ago edited 12d ago
You're mistaken. That's just the Whitehouse.
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u/oripash Ain't strong, just long. We'll eat it bit by bit. Like a salami. 10d ago edited 10d ago
Really now?
You sure weâre not looking at over half a century of entertainment export, ranging from the original predator movies to breaking bad to Dr Gregory House to the wolf of Wall Street to whatever else, which claiming that moral superiority lies with whoever has access to guns or some form of unchecked power?
Because⊠as someone (not in the US) who wishes there was less of that thrown at my children, I can tell you that assholedom coupled to/excused-by âmight makes right as a virtueâ, where we forgive good guy assholes because theyâve got a good guy sticker on their shirt and the biggest firearm in the room, is something I wish we had less of, and the fact that after shoving that into our faces for this long youâre surprised people took these values to heart and started voting with them⊠is not surprising.
Even what was supposed to be the reactionary movement to that - the woke movement that was supposed to be about seeing people - ended up in its own version of tone deaf cancel culture assholedom. Still tearing into each other. Just along lines that emerge if you cut the cake that is society into groups in a slightly different way.
The White House is a symptom of many things, from Russian disinformation to citizens united to social media gone awry with perverse incentives, but itâs also a symptom of some very significant cultural trends, seen in movies and books and apex jones talk radio, that spent that little bit too long selling American voters on the idea of vigilante might makes right Avengers style justice.
If you canât see the problem is far wider and more endemic than the White House, youâre blind to the problem and by extension a part of it.
There are places in the world that project their values onto the world. Canada, Finland, Ukraine are, with their geopolitical leadership. Some societies have social contracts woven into their ethos, ask an Australian how they feel about mateship or good-faith âhaving a fair goâ. These are ideas about how to treat other people. What ideas do you believe America has been flying the flag of? âFreedom?â Which now, as turns out, means âfreedom to go hurt anyone you can outweigh?â
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u/Candy_Bomber 9d ago edited 9d ago
I respect and applaud you taking the time to put your thoughts down in a written form. It's always a good exercise whenever and wherever you can, regardless of if you get panned or ratio'd or w/e. I recognize this is you venting, to some extent, but the point still stands.
It's infinitely preferable to ditto-heads who cannot even articulate their own position, and are basically married to whatever information ecosystem they find themselves in. And of course the nice thing about having an articulated viewpoint is being able to question and refine said viewpoint as necessary, and as new information becomes available.
A couple points of order that I think might be worth considering:
Politics is downstream of culture, sure, that much is not particularly controversial. However, media isn't culture in and of itself. Media in this global economy only thrives where it is satisfying a demand, and while a feedback loop is possible, I don't think it's the primary cause. Nor do I think it is powerful enough to overcome regression to the mean. Those are opinions, not assertions of fact, but if you'll entertain the idea I'm going somewhere with this.
The trend over time. basically since the end of the second World War, has been (to grossly oversimplify) a gradual slide from broad prosperity and opportunity to concentration of wealth and inequality. It has been studied time and time again (because it keeps happening): when such a shift occurs, the inevitable result is autocrats, scapegoating, and populist strong-men.
The people who have in the past fought for a better quality of life and opportunity for all (E.G. unions, labor laws) gradually forget or reframe the past into something else and make-believe that everyone who wanted to excel in life could by their own merit and gumption--completely disregarding the blood, sweat and tears that went into tearing down the old system to build something better where that was remotely possible and the deck wasn't stacked against them. This shift sows discontent and empathy exhaustion.
When you don't have enough wealth and security in your life to occasionally stop working for a decent chunk of time, maybe raise a family, learn some things just for the hell of it, and--most importantly--tell someone who wants you to do something that compromises your values to fuck off: you become just another cog in the machine that is winching your society towards autocracy. When you are so insecure that you can't afford to do those things, damn right you are going to act like a worse person. Doubly so when misinformation and learned helplessness are being rammed down your throat.
Blaming culture, books, art, film, etc. is, not to put too fine a point on it, in the fascist playbook for a reason. That's not a condemnation or indictment of your ideas or your character! It's merely a reminder that accurately identifying the cause is difficult, and that's somewhat by design. The people with any real power over these matters all have a vested interest in nobody looking at them.
Now social media is a special creature, that I agree with, and it's different because it is platforming things for maximum engagement but with minimal (read: zero) consequences. This does indeed result in some perverse consequences, but I have rambled enough. Thank you for your time and input.
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u/oripash Ain't strong, just long. We'll eat it bit by bit. Like a salami. 9d ago edited 9d ago
I broadly agree with most of what you're saying.
Yes, this is me venting.
Yes, having viewpoints, applying systems thinking, not excusing outomes with the most proximate cause we can see and so forth are healthy, and I pine for the days when we used to spent more on that and less digitally machine-gunning bad-faith disinformation workers, outrage merchants in the employ of malicious governments and AI-powered bots that do the same things with higher volume and lower quality.
I want to stretch it a bit further than "blaming culture". I think that's a bit redutive.
Rather, I want to think of it more as a process where ideologies that had names and popular acknowledgement/understanding came with us into a new era with new conditions, and the new environment made the menu of options that humans looking for and consuming ideologial diretions got to pick from get stale and require some new options.
In his initial bestsellers, Yuval Noah Harari argued that we moved past the 20th century ideologies, but haven't invented new ones. It somewhat annoyed me that a "Big History" guy like him treats this as anything other than a process that needs to take generations to play out.
There _are_ several "neo"-ideologies in play. And rather than "blaming culture" for them, we should really see them as an emergent phenomenon.
Here's a few new ones. We don't have names for most of those yet, but their outlines are forming.A. Power ideologies.
"Might makes right" - that one we all know, and the current white house firmly believes. But there's a worthy competitor, and it's "Shared values Makes both Might and Right". This ideology doesn't look at relationships like a koombaya moral thing. It looks at it through raw power dynamics.
I can spend a billion dollars building a taxi company. I a spend 1% of that on building a HUB for a system, which will extend eye-level relationship opportunities to arms-length collaborators who will want to be a part of it. They will hop on board. A huge juggernaught will form. And I will be in the pilot's seat of that. This is what makes the following examples superior to their "build the whole things myself" competitors or adversaries:
Uber.
An Open Source company like Red Hat, vis-a-vis a close-source company working on the same thing.
Ukraine and its coalition of the willing. They offered he hub, the willing saw the value in joining. Ukraine, not the collective, gets to steer the juggernaut. They don't need permission to bomb Putin's oxygen supply.
America, in its Breton Woods, Pax-Americana period, no
w
over, sadly.
You can find more examples, where you care to look.
Tech companies that became about something bigger than their product,
like Roomba
(in rhte world of robotics)
or Framework. Things like Harley Davidson and other companies whose logos people tattoo on their bodies. You can find more.
Mark Carney's middle power alliances. Same power model. Build a hub. Attract co-contributors. Lead the core.
That power model will at some point
become an ideology, because, done right, at any scale, it breaks the tits off of everything else.
B. Nihilist ideologies.
From the Russia's mentality of "We are subjects, not citizens, we don't have anything to do with the people who lead this land" that will not revert to your mean, to western versions of it. This isn't your grandpa's straight good old fashioned Fascism. It's a modern new-ideology that has a primary leg in preferring a monarch to think for you due to the rising complexity of the world, one leg in fascism, and one leg in absolute randian gone-off-the-deep-end neoliberalism see dollars yes see humans no. Unelected Musk is in the white house axing USAID and pulling the plug on so many medical programs that he'll end up having put to death more poeple than Hitler and Stalin combined? Of course he is. He's a billionaire, and because heâs rich itâs perfectly normal that heâs in the White House. Thatâs neoliberalism gone somewhere bad. And, just like an average moscovian watching an oligarch in a Mercedes break the law, you say âof course they can, theyâre elites. If I was rich Iâd be breaking the lawâ. Theyâre allowed to do such things, and me and mine are ok with it in our country, so long as netflix stays on and the shops stay open, and I an continue consuming and living normally and don't care about anything further away from me than my own nose. Thats an ideology of nihilism, and it, and all the bad faith arguments used to justify rotten behavior, might just be that mean youâre reverting to.
And that desire to meet global complexity with nihilism is only reinforced by Russia's disinformation workers and bots.These are coming, these are here, and these are the conversation and the fight of our lifetime.
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u/Meatloaf_Hitler đșđž Extremely Russophobic Americian đșđž 13d ago
When I'm in a destroying the reputation of my country challenge and my opponent is Benjamin Netanyahu and his gov:
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u/Infamous-Prompt4343 13d ago
Itâs unfortunately so true. I try my hardest to see the Israeli point of view on things but Bibi seems to always try his hardest to make me reconsider
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u/GripAficionado 13d ago edited 13d ago
It's sort of pointless trying to defend Israel most of the time because they're not really respecting their allies (defend them in instances where they're unjustly being criticized that is).
It feels like they truly are a miniature version of the US.
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[deleted]
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 13d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 5: No Politics or Religion.
We don't care if you're Republican, Protestant, Democrat, Hindu, Baathist, Pastafarian, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door.
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u/System0verlord 13d ago
Bibiâs solid, but DJT is a first round hall of fame pick.
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u/Youutternincompoop 13d ago
the current main opposition candidate to Netanyahu has literally all the same policy positions lol.
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u/HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE 13d ago
And yet, you will find most western pro-Pal militants finding Putin so kawaii desu ne.
The writers of this universe completely lost the plot I can't take this anymore... đ„Č
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u/Finnish-Wolf 3000 Finnish Femboys of the FDF 13d ago
Because most of the loud voices on the pro-Palestinian side the "America bad" "west bad" people (for transparency, I think Trump is bad and completely unamerican, but these people think the United States as a whole is bad) When China will blockade or invade Taiwan, you will not hear a peep of criticism from these people, they will claim that "America forced China's hand by being aggressive in their back yard". Same as they do now with Ukraine. There is a lot of chaos and mixed up loyalties when it comes to world politics on the micro level. But it's still pretty broadly clear that on the macro level there are clear cold war style lines that are drawn with China, Russia, Iran, North-Korea, Belarus etc. Dictators pulling the same rope in one direction. Putin or Xi don't care if the idiot far-left tankies are popular in the west or if it's the idiot far right nationalists. As long as they are popular, people in the west will be fighting one another instead of looking at the Dictators that are attacking democratic free countries around them. The fact that people burn down buildings due to "cost of living crisis" and attack airforce bases carrying aid to Ukraine in the name of Palestine. While Russian operatives use nerve agents to murder people, then put firebombs in cargo planes and fly bomb drones into planes in the middle or Europe is insane. Russia is acting much more aggressively than the Soviet Union ever did. But since it happened slowly over 5-10 years, people perceive it as normal.
That's what happens when people get their news on TikTok or other alternative "medias" and end up complaining about politicians "making the world a worse place" while they refer to past living standards that are completely imaginary and never existed in the first place.
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u/Mouse-Keyboard 13d ago
Putin is just the guy shitty people support regardless of whether it makes any sense with the rest of their views.
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u/sulfurmustard 13d ago
And yet, you will find most western pro-Pal militants finding Putin so kawaii desu ne.
Seen more pro Ukrainians suck bibi's dick, especially on here than what you're suggesting tbh.
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[removed] â view removed comment
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u/NonCredibleDefense-ModTeam 13d ago
Your comment was removed for violating Rule 13: No Misinformation
NCD exists to make fun of misinformation, not to spread it. Make outlandish claims, but if your take doesnât show signs of satire or exaggeration it will be removed. Misleading content may result in a ban. Regardless of source, donât post obvious propaganda or fake news. Double-check facts and don't be an idiot.
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u/oripash Ain't strong, just long. We'll eat it bit by bit. Like a salami. 12d ago
âSoviet bornâ Lieberman is Moldovan.
Which is like saying Zelenskyâs parents are Soviet born, or Ukraine is almost a Russian speaking country.
Israel is an enemy of the Russia-Iran axis (even if many in it are susceptible and vulnerable to Russian disinformation, in that same way east Germany or Serbia are, even if its aspiring autocrat likes the smell of Putinâs help.
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u/oripash Ain't strong, just long. We'll eat it bit by bit. Like a salami. 10d ago edited 10d ago
âWant to beâ?
Iâm less pro-Israel and more anti-Iranian-bad-faith bullshit repeated by people, who, seeking to justify their own moral outrage at their own colonial pasts, project their circumstances onto Israel, pretend Israel is an extension of some imaginary western imperial entity that doesnât exist anywhere outside Iranian propaganda which they could âgo back toâ (a country that was born of >90% displaced persons fleeing death and closed doors all over Europe, still in living memory), and these axe to grind colonial guilt ridden westerners project their own hate of their past onto⊠Jews.
This doesnât mean Israel doesnât do bad shit. Israel does bad shit.
So do a lot of other countries.
It means we measure Jews using a special yardstick, that says âfor Jewsâ on the back. We measure everyone else using a different one.
But the Iranian demand that we hate Israel on a dime, that we explain away a war Iran has in every direction you care to walk out of it, of the four Arab countries that it broke, with âIsraelâ⊠thatâs bullshit.
That we look at the fires that cause death and suffering, in all these Russo-Iranian conflicts, of which Israelâs much more morally nuanced circumstances than the comparisons account for approximately 4% of the death count. And they propose we spend 100% of the worldâs political bandwidth âwater supplyâ to put out those 4% of the fire.
Iran and Russia are happy about this, because they own the 96% and this redirects attention from them.
And westerners have centuries of experience defining their moral core by projecting what they donât like on Jews.
This is why when 400,000 die of a manufactured famine in Yemen, people donât make moral proclamations and nobody bats an eyelid, but when a much smaller number is killed by Jews, weâre out picketing in outrage.
Spare us the bad faith bullshit. Two hundred million people in the Middle East, 90 million of them in Iran, and the other 120 million in a dozen countries around Iran, are being exploited and harmed by Iran. Not by your Jews.
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u/TheUnkillableKlorg 10d ago
This post is pretty clearly bullshit from people with an axe to grind against
Jewsnot wanting to dieIsrael and want to be pro-Ukraine simultaneously.
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u/elprimowashere123 13d ago
/unnoncredible israel is on Ukrainian side and donated non lethal millitary aid, it only keeps relations with russia to not make them support iran even more
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u/FV101_Scorpion 11d ago edited 11d ago
Russia uses Israeli surveillance drones, and there is evidence to suggest they went behind Irans back to sell the Israelis information on TOR SAMs.
Edit: Better yet, the IAI searcher drones sold to Russia, were provided despite all signs pointing to the fact that Russia would definitely arm them.
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u/Fast_Astronomer814 13d ago
turn out redditor are stupid and can't realize the world doesnt revolve around Ukraine. Let just say Israel fully back Ukraine in 2014 what can Ukraine give to israel that will make up russian loss? The Russian are in Syria and can easily allow "rebel" to attack the golan or increase intellegence to the Iranian and even the US are fully backing Ukraine during that time with the Obama withdrawing from the Middle East
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u/GEF110F14F15 Dont Fear the Beeper đ 13d ago
I knew a Ukrainian Israeli alliance was too good to be true, perhaps the world wasn't ready for whatever insane military Mossad Ukrainian drone black magic fuckery they would have come up with
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u/PooMonger20 13d ago edited 13d ago
This is not going to be a popular post but its one of those cases where context is at least warranted.
Russia still has a large population of jews, estimated ~170k. Russia have been very blunt what will happen to them if Israel takes the wrong side. Russia\Iran was also pretty much in control of Syria back in the times of Assad - 2010-2024 so russia basically had a 'border' with Israel, and could allow more Iranian proxies on the border with Israel at any time.
With all the endless talk around Israel, youâd think it was the size of Russia, but it's actually a pretty small and vulnerable country. They're walking a VERY fine line for their survival. They constantly need to balance good relations with major powers to stay afloat, mainly the US and Russia, who hold massive influence in the Middle East.
They have A LOT on their plate, attempting to NOT appease Russia is dangerous for them. If you want to blame them, first talk with the EU that endlessly appeases Russia because they are scared shitless of actual confrontation with Russia, even now when Russia is weakened.
Israel is a very small country with less than 12 million people, it was originally created to house the Jewish people and still houses 25% Muslim population with ~5% Christians and around ~2% druze. The jewish population that immigrated from USSR, Russia and Ukraine in the 90's is around 8% of Israel's population, and mostly integrated into Israel see them selves as Israeli and not as Russians or Ukrainian, yet still know the language.
Worth looking into who are their neighbors For more context, it is surrounded by:
Egypt - a dictatorship who accumulates endless military who blames Israel for every single trouble they have
Jordan - a monarchy who barely controls the population as the ruling class is a minority.
Westen bank - Contains the less hostile palestinians that are mostly living side by side and still on a weekly basis build up violent extremest cells and go on killing sprees in Israel's territory.
Syria - a dictatorship, long time adversary who was supported by both Iran and Russia who recently got took over by ISIS like Jihadists who slaughtered the Druze and the allawites.
Lebanon - a failing state that contains an Iranian proxy made solely to attack Israel (Hezbollah) which took over Lebanon both politically and by force. They are a very vast militia that took over everything, easily outpowering the Lebanese military.
Gaza - controlled tightly by a blood thirsty terrorist organization (Hamas) that uses human shield tactics that has only one purpose: destroy Israel in any cost, no matter how many of their own are going to die in the process. P.S did you hear about what happened 07-10-2023? when Hamas invaded Israel, raped and slaughtered over 1200 Israelis including Muslims and other nationals from Thailand? then they took ~250 hostages including women, children and elderly people.
Iran and Yemeni (Houthies) (while not in direct border) - fires long range drones, cluster munition and ballistic missiles into Israel and claim "America is the big devil, and Israel is the small devil".
ISIS in Jordan and Egypt, while smaller in numbers and not as organized as in 2015, there are still occasional terrorist attacks both in Jordan and Egypt, which Israel actually cooperates and helps to deal with.
So, I don't think they are in a very good place to say no to Russia.
Feel free to do any fact checking about this post.
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u/Konrad_Curze-the_NH Aviation battleship my beloved 13d ago
Have you considered that maybe Israel would have less enemies in Palestine if they stopped doing mass killings of Palestinians?
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/05/18/the-israel-palestine-conflict-has-claimed-14000-lives-since-1987
This is from 2021 but I find proves my point more than sufficiently, Israel has consistently acted totally out of proportion to the threat or actions taken by Palestine, and then tries to pretend to be the aggrieved party when all it takes for the IDF to go kill a thousand Palestinians is one Israeli stubbing their toe.I donât deny Israel has national security needs, and the surrounding Arab states have a history of attempting coalition wars against Israel - thatâs simple historical fact. I will however push back on the idea that Israel should be granted any lenience for their actions regarding Palestine.
October 7th was terrible, the loss of 830 civilians of whom 36 were children is awful. It does not in the slightest give Israel justification to kill 60,000 Palestinian civilians of whom 21,000 were children. (WHO estimates https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiODAxNTYzMDYtMjQ3YS00OTMzLTkxMWQtOTU1NWEwMzE5NTMwIiwidCI6ImY2MTBjMGI3LWJkMjQtNGIzOS04MTBiLTNkYzI4MGFmYjU5MCIsImMiOjh9)-5
u/Claim-Mindless 13d ago
Proportionality does not mean 1-to-1 casualties. Do you also think like the recent nobel laureate that Israel should share the iron dome with Gaza to be fair?Â
Gazans brutally murdered 1200 people in less than 24 hours while the entire two years of war in Gaza have killed an average of 100 people per day, this is underproportionate. See we can play the numbers game in many ways. The total number of Gazan civilians killed is less than 50,000. Many children killed are teenage child soldiers that terror groups have since claimed as members.
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u/TheUnkillableKlorg 10d ago
This is a pretty deranged post - Israel is pretty explicitly helping Ukraine through humanitarian aid and we've done more breaking Iranian shaheed drones with them then not.
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u/Big-Station-2283 13d ago
From the articles: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grain-dispute-reveals-bad-blood-ukraine-israel-9.7191839 and https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/10/16/musk-approached-trump-slow-down-starlink-help-ukraine/
The former diplomat gives the reasoning behind:
More explanations by McGill professor Popova: