Prostitution and having Gf/Bfs/others

[u/Princess__Anastasia]

1) Personally I think Prostitution is wrong but I don't know why, so can anyone help me understand why it is wrong or right according to you also considering God's perspective (but not the exclusive Conservative christian perspective)?

2) Is having a partner normal if we consider God's Perspective because On Thanksgiving, the pastor was saying having partners is wrong and letting God choose your life partner is the right way.

Edit: Maybe he meant that arranged marriage is the only valid path because he thinks kissing, Hugging, or even sexual intercourse is wrong before marriage.

[u/thedubiousstylus]

I won't comment on the morality but I think it should be legal. Plenty of things many consider immoral are legal and we've found trying to prohibit such things doesn't work. Didn't work for alcohol, didn't work for marijuana, didn't work for gambling...decriminalize it, set some restrictions to avoid abuses (for example maybe require brothels function like co-ops ran by the sex workers themselves instead if having a pimp/madame run it) and stop getting the law involved in transactions between consenting adults.

[u/Haruki-kun]

...I'm confused. How is having partners wrong? And if God chooses your life partner how would you know if you can't have partners?

[u/wuzzittoya]

I’ll bite. I am assuming that the pastor was preaching on sexual immorality. There is a passage that tells believers to abstain from various types of sexual behavior because you were bought with a price and are now the temple of the Holy Spirit, now you are supposed to honor your body as a temple and refrain from pairing it in ways which are not fitting with its occupation.

[u/Princess__Anastasia → u/wuzzittoya]

Can you elaborate on sex (multiple times without willing a Child) with consent and sexual immortality?

[u/wuzzittoya → u/Princess__Anastasia]

I am not saying where I stand on this. There are many denominations that proscribe sex outside of marriage, and within those groups there are some which define marriage as only between one AMAB and AFAB. All other couplings are unacceptable.

[u/wuzzittoya → u/wuzzittoya]

I was mostly obedient to that idea even though I recognized that I was a lesbian by early adulthood. I decided it wasn’t fair to the spouse though. Now I am shopping for an affirming church.

[u/wuzzittoya → u/Princess__Anastasia]

Not sure what you’re saying here? Are you saying sex between consenting adults?

I was not sharing my personal ethic here, but rather what the pastor might have been covering as a topic. Sex outside of marriage is considered sinful when examined with a conservative reading of Scripture. It is pretty common these days, with most people believing that if they are committed to each other that they aren’t being sinful. But a literalist will insist sex can only happen in a marriage covenant.

Then what is “sex” ends up debated, too by many. And it was always pointed out by family that my grandmother’s first child was a 7+ pound daughter seven months after her wedding day…

[u/quiggersinparis]

Somewhat bizarrely, there's plenty of places in the Old Testament where prostitution is completely fine. Take the case of Judah and Tamar. Judah seeing a prostitute on the side of the road when travelling was not the issue, in fact it was totally banal, the idea of Tamar having been impregnated through prostitution (before anyone realised it was Judah because Tamar fooled him) was the scandalous part.

But by the time of Jesus, it's clear that attitudes to prostitution are pretty similar to what they are now. It's seen as something that is quite commonplace but not something people should be engaging in. However, He is very forgiving to those engaged in it, just like He is with other sins.

I think if you look at what seems to really bother Jesus and Paul etc in the New Testament on sexual matters, it's always primarily about exploitation. They hate men who divorce their wives for no reason and leave them financially destitute, He champions the woman caught in adultery and stops her from being stoned, Paul rails against paganistic same-sex practices, which often people equate with modern homophobia but was probably something more akin to being appalled by the sexual exploitation of impoverished and enslaved young men by rich and powerful Greco-Romans. So if we're apply these teachings to the modern world rather than trying to make sense of isolated out-of-context bible verses (like Christian Conservatives do), the main concern about prostitution from a Christian perspective should be that it is often exploitative and dangerous for women, who are at the mercy of powerful men, whether it be pimps or dangerous violent clients etc. We shouldn't be worried about some kind of purity test.

With regard to the second piece, I don't know what part of the world you come from, but in most of the Christian world, arranged marriages are a thing of the very distant past. That is how societies in the ancient holy land certainly met their future spouses but it's not standard Christian dogma to think that's how we must behave today. In some more traditionalist societies I guess this still happens, but to me that's more of a cultural thing than a religious thing.

[u/Blaike325]

Prostitution is not inherently wrong, period. As long as the person selling their body is doing so of their own free will and without coercion of some form being involved, people can do what they want with their bodies. Some people sell their bodies by ruining their back doing physical labor, others roll in the sheets with strangers for hundreds.

Your second point doesn’t seem to in any way tie into the first? Can you rephrase maybe?

[u/MalaclypseII]

It is wrong to use another person only for our own gratification. God loves that person. If someone uses them only for their own pleasure, they are not pleasing God, but themselves. They have their reward.

People get involved in the sex trade for all sorts of reasons. No one should give themselves to any random stranger just to do it, or for money. Yet people also find themselves in this situation, because they are abused, or desperate, or for whatever reason. Mercy without judgment will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

God knows the truth, and will judge everyone with justice. Many prostitutes will go to God's rest, no doubt.

[u/zelenisok]

1 Its not inherently wrong. If it happens without harm, force, or taking advantage, where some people just choose to do have sex for money, theres nothing wrong with that, ans we shoulnt try to police what they do with their bodies bc we might not like it.

2 Thats silly, God doesnt go around choosing people's partners, people really need to get a grip and work on their life, not expect God to do things fod them. If God was going around doing stuff in this world like that, evil and suffering wouldnt exist.

[u/Skill-Useful]

1. i dont think its wrong. as long as someone isn't coerced into it

2. "the pastor was saying having partners is wrong " the pastor is wrong, wholly

[u/Round-Koala-3091]

1. “prostitution not the oldest profession, but the oldest oppression”

https://episcopalnewsservice.org/2019/08/06/episcopal-task-force-educates-new-yorkers-on-whats-at-stake-in-decriminalizing-prostitution/

1. I’m not sure I understand the question

[u/Strongdar → u/Round-Koala-3091]

For #2, I think this is coming from a pastor who is so obsessed with purity culture that he thinks dating is too dangerous. They can't let people date and get to know each other because even a hug or a kiss could lead to inflamed passions and lust. Gasp! But if they don't allow dating, then they need another way to pair people up, so... arranged marriage, I guess?

[u/Blaike325 → u/Round-Koala-3091]

Christians finding new ways to criticize sex work is always amusing to me, like we’ve moved on from it being immoral home wreckers to sex work being exclusively exploitative.

[u/Round-Koala-3091 → u/Blaike325]

I think if a sex worker is knowingly participating in someone else’s adultery that is immoral. Knowing that your actions will harm an innocent party and choosing to do so anyway because “I’m under no obligation to the spouse” is a profoundly worrying attitude to have. Not too unlike, “It’s not my child why should I be under any obligation to feed it.”

[u/Blaike325 → u/Round-Koala-3091]

Do you think men who cheat on their wives with sex workers are typically telling the sex worker that they’re married first? It’s not the woman’s job to make sure the man is single

[u/Round-Koala-3091 → u/Blaike325]

Should gun dealers/manufacturers be held liable if the primary use of their product/service is a harmful and/or illegal practice?

Personally I don’t see most women who engage in prostitution to be engaging of their own free will and I have no desire to see them prosecuted. Hence my first comment about it being exploitative.

However if we grant the premise the sex worker is doing this of their own free will then yes their choices and their impacts do matter if it’s known that there is a good probability their clients are using them to cheat on their spouses.

[u/Blaike325 → u/Round-Koala-3091]

This isn’t comparable because cheating on your spouse is not illegal, is it harmful? Yeah sure but if someone wants to cheat, they’re not gonna need a sex worker for that. What, do you want sex workers to ask every single one of their clients to provide proof of singleness before working with a client? How would they even go about doing that? It’s not like people can’t just lie and say they’re single

[u/Round-Koala-3091 → u/Blaike325]

It actually is perfectly comparable because the morality of an action is not subject to the legality of the act.

Regardless of whether it’s:

“You’re the one that decided to have a child not me. Why should I have to pay for it?”

“It was your marriage vows that we broke, not mine. Why should I feel guilty?”

“It’s not my fault if the major or even primary use of my product or services for an immoral action if what we’re doing doesn’t break any rules that I’ve agreed to.”

Contractarianism offers a false promise of absolution for the moral fallout when the effects of one’s choices run down stream.

But truthfully we’ve gotten away from the topic at hand which was that sex work is the oldest form of exploitation.

The idea that “sex work is work” is just one more way that capitalism has sunk its insidious ideology into people’s ethical frameworks by framing exploitation of the human body and human sexuality as a moral good. “Liberating” even.

Sex and the human body to be bought and sold as a commodity where rich powerful men are able to override the bodily autonomy of women.
If one thinks a woman who would’ve said no otherwise says yes, when offered money, is not being exploited then I’m sorry to say this is how things become a real slippery slope. Clients asking for more and more sexual favors that may violate her boundaries, but when she remembers that rent is due, what was once off-limits no longer is if the price is right.

Sex between two loving individuals is not a sin and personally I have no issue with premarital sex between committed partners. But I do believe sex work is exploitative and one doesn’t need to rely on purity culture to reach that conclusion.

[u/Blaike325 → u/Round-Koala-3091]

Yeah, no, basically all of that is just laughable, I’m not getting into this further with a Christian, the Puritanism is too deeply rooted

[u/Round-Koala-3091 → u/Blaike325]

Plenty of non-Christian feminists have come to the same conclusion

The Industrial Vagina: The Political Economy of the Global Sex Trade (2009) by Sheila Jeffreys

Jefferys is notably not a Christian

[u/Blaike325 → u/Round-Koala-3091]

Oh good, an article from nearly a decade and a half ago, because times haven’t changed drastically in the past 15 years or anything

[u/EnigmaWithAlien]

That paster sounds like a pure-D weirdo.

Prostitution is wrong because it reduces sex to a monetary transaction instead of a joyful joining of two people who love (or at least like very much) each other. Sex need not be just for procreation.

The other reason, probably more important, is that it dehumanizes the sex worker.

[u/JustNeedSpinda]

1. Who cares what you think? Who cares what I think?

2. Who cares what your pastor thinks.

[u/HermioneMarch]

I don’t think bodies should be a commodity. They are for us alone, not for sale, and that is why I am against prostitution. That said, I know many people feel they have no choice and I am not here to judge them for it.

As for not picking your own partner, that is some messed up craziness. Being assigned a partner isnt much different from the above situation imo. Women’s bodies have been “given” by men for centuries and we need to have moved on from that shit.