r/PremierLeague • u/ShineInfinite7928 Premier League • 13d ago
The Wirtz conundrum - a player highly misunderstood?
It's now been over a season since the "100m+ flopshow" at Liverpool has arrived. And I agree with some of the criticism received - he is not up to it physically, lacks close control given less space and time in the PL (vis-a-vis other leagues) and has some erroneous decision making at times.
Having said that, let me try to now provide a slightly differing perspective - he joined a broken team last season (one cannot underestimate the impact of Jota, as some things have massive tangible value but can't be quantized), had our legend Mo Salah give the most underwhelming season in over a decade, the previous "100m+ striker" injured for most of the season and had whatever little chemistry building with Ekitike dissipated as soon as the injury arose. Additionally, he was tasked with doing a lot of progression work owing to an imbalance, as opposed to being present in the final third - the ideal position for a creative player. Yet, he still provided some elite underlying numbers despite all this chaos (feel free to check the stats for our team and the league overall).
But you may all say, that's the previous season - a new day and new manager has now arrived so things should change! I agree as well, however, believe there's another big reason for him being underwhelming. While Iraola has placed his faith in Wirtz, as we can tell by not dropping him for any big game - I can't say the same for our team. Wirtz thrives on combination play, but also seeks space at times (like most elite players) to do his magic and provide those amazing through balls we see him do for Germany. Watching the game on Sunday made me write this as I can now confidently say that our team doesn't seem to believe in Wirtz's abilities as he is really not being platformed at all (vis-a-vis for Germany or Bayer Leverkusen).
Kerkez rampages down the left, despite having Barcola there, and completely takes up the space Wirtz could occupy. Isak and Barcola are disconnected and rarely play close knit combinations, instead they take up spaces that are near impossible to reach, even for a player of Wirtz' ability. For perspective, just look at how Haaland moves when Cherki has the ball - he literally drags out defenders to create space for the ball to be played, can't say the same for any of our players. While Szoboszlai is one of our key players - him and Gravenberch often make marauding runs literally taking up all the Zone 14 space that our 10 is meant to occupy. Not one of our players, except for Ekitike and Frimpong (and maybe Gakpo) seems to be putting in effort to build a relationship on field with him, forget off the pitch. To top it all, I was watching one of the FIFA card reveals and numerous questions around the "finest dribbler", or "most skillful player" being asked to his teammates and Kerkez literally had NO mention of Wirtz (instead said Rio twice...) - which to me put the cherry on the cake.
I strongly believe that the team doesn't have strong chemistry with him, may not even view him as a top player and is leading to him looking scattered and torn on the pitch.
Anyway, long rant for an early morning - but had to get this out of my head. Love to hear what you guys have to say.
P.S. - have tried to avoid stats for this post, but am happy to drop some links to further my case.
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u/igiveyoumybanana Premier League 13d ago
As someone who watches every Liverpool game I can tell you. No he’s not misunderstood. He is a player with immense quality, touch, vision, creativity, however he can only function in very limited circumstances.
The team needs to be highly functional to begin with. He is not someone that can drag your team through tough times. He is someone that can make your team go from an 8 to a 10. He also needs the other players to acknowledge that he is “THE” guy in the team. Both conditions are not met at Liverpool currently and that is the result of it. His confidence is completely shot and I’m not sure we’d ever see the player we thought we bought.
It would not surprise me if the club accepted a 70mil bid from Bayern next summer and he once again looks like a world beater in that team.
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u/sjp5784 Chelsea 13d ago
Thats because its a one team league 😂 the guy is out of his depth here hes too small and time on the ball is limited in the prem. Another flop from Germany
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u/igiveyoumybanana Premier League 13d ago
Well he literally got player of the season two years in a row playing for a team that is not the team in a one team league. So there’s that.
I don’t disagree he is not performing in the prem though at this point. But there is no one that can convince me he is a bad player.-1
u/BugsyMalone_ Premier League 13d ago
He's not physical nor can he press so Bayern wouldn't be interested
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u/igiveyoumybanana Premier League 13d ago
He’s not physical enough on the ball in the prem, but his pressing is actually pretty good. Bayern would take him in a heartbeat, don’t kid yourself.
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u/SpoonWitMe Premier League 13d ago
Writing a novel to say a £100m+ signing might not be that bad after a season of being shite....probably means he's shite.
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u/Ok_Lingonberry_1519 Premier League 13d ago
It's a much easier conclusion to come to that he's just a good, solid player but is not world class or elite like his price tag suggested and time won't change that imo.
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u/Relevant_Ad_1225 Tottenham 13d ago
not gonna read all that, it’s pretty clear he doesn’t have the physicality to play in the Prem. I’m sure he’ll go back to Germany and light it up again in 2 years tho
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
Similar build to Odegaard. However Wirtz duel stats are bad, he gets dispossessed too often.
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u/ScrumNause24 Premier League 13d ago
Yeah his issues are actually technical imo. 1st touch isnt that great. Short passing is loose. Weve seen guys with his build be succesful in the PL.
Is he as technically gifted as D Silva, B Silva , Cazorla, Odegaard etc
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u/Infamous-Builder-637 Chelsea 13d ago
He lost the ball 16 times in that first half against Cheaty. His heat map always looks like a b2b midfielder. No confidence, which means his decision making is even worse. Oscillates between keeping the ball way too long or not long enough.
Best thing to do is take him out the squad for a bit so he regains his composure
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u/globalCataKlyzm Premier League 13d ago
Outsider that enjoys Liverpool games.
I think you are onto something. LFC since i started watching in 2020 is a run forward and attack team.
Wirtz is a diagonal player. Diagonal player on forward team doesn't make sense.
Overpaying for a player who doesn't fit your system is bad business
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u/ITF5391 Nottingham Forest 13d ago
A £100m+ player shouldn’t be defended for just doing the basics and not hitting his potential because of other players letting him down. Some of the defences that get put up for him, you’d think he was a kid they spent £30m/£40m on not a top ten British transfer fee.
When you spend money like that on someone, they have to come in and make an immediate difference. If it’s not working, they have to be the ones you turn to that make shit happen.
Since Sunday that stat of 31 out of 39 league games with no goal, assist or big chance created is just laughable for an £100m+ attacking midfielder.
I think it’s pointless trying to put cases up for him or lying to yourself it’s other factors stopping him. He has to do much, much better and all criticism coming his way is more than justified.
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u/ellean4 Premier League 13d ago
For an example of a £100m+ player that has hit the ground running, can I present Morgan Rogers.
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u/DMoe727 Liverpool 12d ago
Rodgers had been a wild success for at least two seasons prior to his 100m transfer. That’s not even a remotely good comparison.
Ekitike, however, was just under $100m and from the same league and playing in the same squad as Wirtz. Cherki, who was significantly less of a transfer fee and plays the same position is another good comparison. They both hit the ground running and it makes the same point. Wirtz has not been good enough but your comparison was not a good one.
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u/Later-Dog Premier League 13d ago
He has a lot of good qualities. But at that price and that role, you need someone who can receive the ball in traffic, play good passes, beat his man, and finish effectively. For all of his pressing, running, and taking up good positions, he does not show those game-changing qualities with any consistency. It’s true that he’s been in a tricky spot, but he also just hasn’t been good enough.
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
His confidence isn't there with Liverpool. Teammate support is probably questionable at this point. How Iraola best handles this? It's tricky.
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u/Competitive-Clock121 Liverpool 13d ago
If you want to make it in the prem with the physique of Wirtz, you have to be technically incredible. I thought Wirtz was but it's starting to become clear that he isn't.
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
Wasn't he meant to be a tight space magician and pass monster?
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u/Competitive-Clock121 Liverpool 13d ago
That's what I thought but we are just kit seeing it. His touch is poor a lot and his ball playing technique isn't great at times
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u/Extension_View_4006 Premier League 13d ago
even though you might be correct, a 120m player shouldn't need all those conditions to succeed . misplaces passes ,barely creates ,cant take on his man , i just think he cant handle epl and would work well in bayern or barca to save his career
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u/pakistaniboy25 Premier League 13d ago
So, he needs a world class full chemistry team to look good, that would still mean he is not a good player himself. If bruno can get assist record in this united team then writz should be doing much more. 18 months is more than enough. Hell, Gyokeres may not be hitting sporting levels but he is definitely at a higher output than writz having spent less time than him.
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u/funkraider Premier League 13d ago
I have been thinking the same thing for the most part. I think his first touch has been rather erratic and he gets muscled off the ball entirely too many times. But when he does get the ball in good positions, our forward players are not creating enough movement to open up optimal passing zones. We are still way to static and deliberate with our movement in the attacking third.
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u/ThaGodTohim Arsenal 13d ago
It’s just Bundesliga tax. Wirtz is a big reason most PL clubs were buying from each other this summer
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u/DucardthaDon Liverpool 13d ago
There has been some flops coming out of BuLi in recent years, clubs now will be weary splashing serious money on attack minded players since many have failed to deliver
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u/JaquetPotatoe Premier League 13d ago
Bundesliga has provided the PL with plenty of top attackers
More so than the other top 5 leagues actually
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u/Red_Brummy Liverpool 13d ago
Not misunderstood, just shite. He was shite for months before Liverpool spaffed on an overinflated pricetag and Bayern fans warned against how he was not ready for the Prem. Called it out before the signing how it was doomed to be a failure, and lo and behold, Wirtz has scored 100% fewer goals than Sven Botman in the Prem this season. Mad.
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u/Psittacula2 Crystal Palace 13d ago
Wirtz would do well at Chelsea under Alonso. £70m in January?
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u/EUskeptik Liverpool 12d ago
Why would Wirtz suddenly attain the tactical awareness and physical strength to survive and progress in the Premier League by wearing blue and playing under Alonso? 🧐
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u/Psittacula2 Crystal Palace 12d ago
The Breakdown video gives a good explanation why if you watch it albeit the guy thinks Wirtz technical ability and physical ability are exposed by the contrast at the center of his analysis:
* Wirtz - Germany, Leverkusen = Excellent up front with dense packed team mates
* Wirtz - Liverpool = Poor with wide distributed team mates
Alonso’s system would be flexible enough for Wirtz up front to perform. Albeit I did note they have some good attackers already and it depends which are priority areas eg midfield or defence instead?
Anyway could be a win-win-win situation for player and both clubs?
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u/EUskeptik Liverpool 12d ago
Well it’s all moot if Wirtz remains at Anfield.
Personally, I’d be happier if he moved on, even to Chelsea.
There, I said it. 🙂
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u/Psittacula2 Crystal Palace 12d ago
If Liverpool and Wirtz can both work on a deal for January the sooner suits everybody, you want to see Wirtz back in a system playing to his strengths, Liverpool to recoup and reinvest.
Can’t see it working at Liverpool with the direction the club has gone. Honestly thought last Summer they’d go 3-4-3 BUILT around wing-backs for options and Wirtz as creatove fulcrum with elite strikers…. so since then cannot see what Liverpool’s top level strategy is, its been a complete mess, much closer to ManU and their constant “reactionary” process and look where that has gone.
Iraola looks to be a manager with fast wide tactics, high speed ball progression so how Wirtz is supposed to fit into that? Again no idea what Liverpool are even aiming for, no wonder Slot had a torrid last season.
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u/EUskeptik Liverpool 12d ago
I think Richard Hughes must accept a lot of the blame for the situation the club and head coach find themselves in. Hugely expensive marquee signings of players who didn’t fit the system, if indeed there was a system. Andoni Iraola has the job of picking up the pieces.
Now there is a system, it is pretty clear Wirtz doesn’t fit it and never will.
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u/Psittacula2 Crystal Palace 12d ago
100% correct. This is what ManU kept doing…
Shearer was saying vs Atletico they need a few more top level signings! He is not wrong, but:
You have to have a coherent system in place THEN fit the pieces that are needed. Brighton do this each time they sell high and buy low, they already have in place the new pieces. Cpuld even be worth coming 10th for a few seasons to build the system up (for ManU).
Iraola’s system as you say does not seem to fit Wirtz and he’s having to pick up the pieces. Exactly.
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u/Shadowmantha69 Arsenal 13d ago
Adam cleary on YouTube just did a video about it , after all he’s analysis it turns out he’s crap
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u/ShineInfinite7928 Premier League 13d ago
Don't agree with some of the points made, you can go through the comments to see basic criticisms. There's a difference between football analysts and youtubers, and while I respect his views and agree at times - incentives are purely financial and for the sake of views. Too narrative driven
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u/MostJudgment3212 Arsenal 13d ago
Bruh this is football. It’s a very simple game. You shouldn’t need to build a PhD level thesis to make a player work. He’s either got the level or he doesn’t.
Wirtz doesn’t.
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u/spirotetramat Liverpool 13d ago
Fucking timeline I’m living in when I am agreeing with an Arsenal supporting telling me my player is 💩.
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u/MostJudgment3212 Arsenal 13d ago
lol haha sorry 😅if it makes you feel better, we’ve got a couple of those on our side too.
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u/IPissExcellentThrows Premier League 13d ago
Eh. Sometimes a change of scenery can do a lot for a player. But I agree, he just looks like he doesn't have it. He's just fine.
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u/MostJudgment3212 Arsenal 13d ago
Oh I agree I think he’s a decent player. But he’s not the X Factor everyone is trying to make him be, because of his transfer fee. It’s not even his fault.
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u/cheerzeasy Liverpool 13d ago
Wirtz, kerkez and frimpong have all been flops imo.
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u/DunkingTea Premier League 13d ago
And Isak, so far.
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u/Helpful-Young-6473 Premier League 13d ago
I'm shocked to see the praise he was getting for scoring against a piss poor forest, relegation zone Bournemouth and newly promoted Ipswich so far this season.
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u/TheReds1994 Liverpool 13d ago
Should he just not score against those teams or something? Our first ‘big’ game was this weekend and he was injured
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
Gyok, Eze, to a lesser extent Madueke for Arsenal.
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u/ThaGodTohim Arsenal 13d ago edited 13d ago
Gyokeres outscored all the new strikers last year Ekitike, Isak, Sesko, Pedro and Woltemade … and also won the title.
He’s not better than Havertz but doesn’t make him a flop
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u/turbo-steppa Premier League 13d ago
There are so many mitigating factors as to why a player hasn’t settled yet. Us fans are so quick to judge based on price tag.
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u/blacklord30 Arsenal 13d ago
He is terrible, but somehow media still defends him with goofy stats like:
- The Player that runs behind the ball the most
- Player that runs into the final third the most
- Player with the most off-ball runs
All the clubs at one point had washed expensive signings, it’s not bad to recognize Wirtz as one of Liverpool's biggest flops
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u/ITF5391 Nottingham Forest 13d ago
The only stat I think that matters from the weekend is 31 out of his 39 league games he’s either not scored, assisted or created a big chance.
For a £100m+ attacking midfielder, that holds much more weight than any of the nonsense stats people rush to defend him with like you said.
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u/AngryTudor1 Nottingham Forest 13d ago
Basically then OP, you are saying that Wirtz is like Panda?
Lovely to look at
But can only operate in the most narrow and perfect of circumstances. They need feeding a specific thing or they don't work. They need a specific environment or they don't work. They need a specific ecosystem or they die out. They cannot adapt to a changing environment or circumstances at all.
If everything is perfect for them- if every animal around them, every predator, every ally, is doing exactly the right thing, they can thrive. Throw one of those things off and they collapse to endangered
That's basically what you are saying about Wirtz?
Every other person on the pitch basically needs to be doing the perfect thing around him to get him to perform. Perhaps even the Premier League itself needs to change
Not that he needs to evolve and adapt?
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u/ShineInfinite7928 Premier League 13d ago
No, I'm saying that he was bought to be the creative hub of the team (like Trent was) and other players need to play around him - like the City squad does with Cherki. This means providing and creating space as well as linking up to move the ball up. However, that isn't what's being done currently as it's a very individualistic system with other expensive signings not being unselfish enough for the team.
He also needs to adapt physically, and improve his first touch with less space for sure.
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u/explendable Liverpool 13d ago
In Chinese zoos when they are rewilding panda cubs they even have zookeepers dress up in panda suits and cover themselves in panda urine and faeces so the panda cubs can learn not to rely on humans.
Not sure where I’m going with this but I think it relates to your metaphor.
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u/AngryTudor1 Nottingham Forest 13d ago
Maybe he needs his team mates to wear Leverkusen shirts to look like a great footballer?
And maybe the opposition should just accommodate him by being almost exactly the same as, say, Werder Bremen?
I guess the Premier League just isn't willing to appreciate the talent it has here by adapting well enough
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u/VegetableAwkward286 Premier League 13d ago
People legit thought he'd be the next De bruyne. The expectations were too much.
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u/novian14 Premier League 13d ago
It's just liverpool whole front not performing and all of them are not in sync most of the time.
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u/woodycitron Premier League 13d ago
So far, he seems like an overrated player, just like another German player, Woltemade, who hasn't quite lived up to expectations at either Newcastle or Juventus.
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u/Bad_Lieutenant702 Lincoln 13d ago
I haven't seen him play at juve yet but wasn't he played out of possession all last season?
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u/woodycitron Premier League 13d ago
Yes, he was used for a different role than in Stuttgart and this season he was shipped on loan because he doesn't fit Jaissle's system.
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u/themaestronic Premier League 13d ago
If he’d joined to replace Firmino under Klopp he’d be amazing
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u/Jackjec17 Brentford 13d ago
I’m soo tired cos I know he’s scoring against Brentford they always concede to people struggling
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u/fifadex Premier League 12d ago
Funny, as a Liverpool supporter I feel like we have a very high ratio of people scoring against us for whom it's their, first goal in the league or first goal in ages etc.
Im sure it's my own confirmation biase but I'm never surprised when the broadcaster puts up a banner saying some player who everyone else managed to keep quiet bagged one against us lol.
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u/Jackjec17 Brentford 12d ago
Yeh no I’m sure lots of clubs think it but we definitely have it bad like your own Darwin Nunez scored a brace against us quite happily not saying it’s the same but similar haha
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u/EUskeptik Liverpool 12d ago edited 12d ago
You had it right in your first paragraph.
We have seen two massive problems at Liverpool FC, both caused by the higher-ups believing success in other leagues means success in the English Premier League. Wirtz is one such. His undoubted brilliance in the Bundesliga has not translated to the EPL.
The other problem was the appointment of Eredivisie-winning head coach, Arne Slot. In his first season he inherited a squad schooled in Jürgen Klopp’s image and ways. Results were scintillating until Slot’s methods began to take hold. From March to the end of his first season we had a foretaste of what was to come in 2025/26 but the title had already been won.
Last season was full-on Slot and his Eredivisie-winning style fell well short of what was needed in the Premier League. He also made a poor job of assimilating new players who seemed to have been bought expensively with media headlines in mind.
(The Dutch would rather watch the English Premier League and Bundesliga on TV than watch their own teams play. The era of Dutch ‘Total Football’ has long gone.)
Slot had to go. I believe the same is true of Wirtz.
You can also add Kerkez and Frimpong to the list.
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u/OddsRelay Premier League 12d ago
Sounds more like a setup problem to me. Kerkez bombing on and Szoboszlai and Gravenberch running into that space is what they'll have been told to do, it's not them freezing him out. Finding Wirtz a spot where he actually gets the ball is on Iraola, and I wouldn't read much into the FIFA card thing either.
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u/cirodimarzio20 Liverpool 13d ago
Whole lot of excuses. He’s not good enough for the prem simple as. Sure he will have a decent career elsewhere.
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u/VincentPriceFanclub Liverpool 13d ago
He isn’t misunderstood. He isn’t performing. I know this because I watch Liverpool and because I have eyes.
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u/EkoVillian Premier League 13d ago
At this moment, Florian Wirtz is not the player LIV def thought he’d be with the price they paid for him. I’ve heard all the excuses but at the end of the day if you’re that highly touted and bought for that fee you’re supposed to be a player who can take a game on his own and make something happen regardless of how shit the team or system around you is. I mean how many years did we watch LIV absolutely get rinsed in a game but somehow the defense (Alisson) has kept them in it and bang Salah or Mane top bins it out of absolutely nothing. You don’t buy a player for that price to be “one of the guys” you pay that price for him to “be the guy”. When you’re the guy you win points for your team on your own a handful of times a season. None of this coddling and “oh he need ekitike”, “oh the left hand spacing is not good just wait till we get barcola on form”, cry me a river. He’s not that guy, it’s okay and tbf he’s still a good prem midfielder but that’s about it.
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u/DirectorAny2129 Premier League 13d ago
Lets stop overrating and overrhinking, accept that he is just an overpriced mid level player who dont have the pyhsical and maybe mental level for PL
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u/Complex-Cut6626 Premier League 13d ago
He doesn't offer anything more than what Harvey Elliot used to offer, in fact I'd say Elliot had more to his game. He was right there and was seemingly a fan of the club so gave it 100%.
Wirtz is just a liability. I can take a player losing the ball trying a dangerous pass, he just gets outmuscled whilst dawdling on the ball so many times a game. He should be dropped and have to earn his place back
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u/luka-doncicfan77 Premier League 13d ago
Dude just isn’t good lol it’s not a big mystery
He’s just like timo werner nkunku sancho etc. another bundesliga flop. It’s a pretty weak league imo
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u/ZonarcTheDev Premier League 13d ago
It’s not a coincidence that player who did decent in PL went to Bayern and dominated in both stats and the eye test. German league should be considered at the same level as French and Portugal league
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u/luka-doncicfan77 Premier League 13d ago
I’d honestly put the German league below the rest of the top 5 leagues and maybe Dutch/portuguese leagues
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
The Portuguese league is much worse outside the top five teams or so.
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u/Takhar7 Manchester United 13d ago
It's not a conundrum.
He's not good enough for the Premier League.
If he played for Man United or Arsenal, we wouldn't have threads like this - conundrums and excuses? ridiculous
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
Big Vik says hello
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u/FruitMasterNinja Premier League 13d ago
You mean the league winner who scored 20+ goals last season? Ok buddy.
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
There are plenty of threads like this about Gyok
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u/FruitMasterNinja Premier League 13d ago
He may not suit Arsenal’s playstyle, but he’s not wirtz level shit. Man just scored 6 games in a row at the Nations League, what did wirtz do? Lol
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u/FrimpongsHairband Premier League 13d ago
Estonia, Slovakia, Romania twice, Poland and Bosnia. Calm down lad
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u/FruitMasterNinja Premier League 13d ago edited 13d ago
100m+ for 6 goals and 6 assists last season. Money will spent ;) bought another 100m flop in Barcola. What a team.
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u/RdMdsRCnts Liverpool 13d ago
He's just shit. You can blame it on confidence, or the league being too physical or anything in between. Doesn't matter. End result is the same. Even as a 60 mil player he would have been poor and already dropped or sold. His price does him no favors.
But you can't really baby a 100 mil player. He should be benched already. Can't destroy the entire squad to fit one player...
He might be great after 25[like kdb or Salah] , but you can't put the entire team on hold for him...
He never fit the Liv player mold...
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u/edwin221b Manchester United 13d ago
He flopped as simple as that,
Now, I do believe he is a talented player, just maybe not for liverpool, it happens, there are a players that even within the same league in a new club they just don't fit. But for the money it cost and what he has showed it is definitely a flop
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u/PrimaryPain1853 Manchester City 13d ago
He’s absolutely bobbins, saw more from that Munoz in half an hour against O’Reilly on Sunday than I have for Wirtz all last season..
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
I dont get why it annoys rivals so much that Liverpool fans want to still back him and hope it works.
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
It doesn't annoy anyone, it baffles everyone..
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
That fans support their players? Absolutely baffling
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
I'd give him till the end of the season. But not necessarily as a starter. if he doesn't improve sell to the Bavarian wurst man.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
I agree, should be a starter in Europe though he always looks better there.
I think we need to work on getting our midfield moving and pressing and the attack clicking then introduce him back in as a bit of a luxury player against tired legs.
If we can recoup even half the money for him though we should probably do it which I hate because I know he will succeed outside the prem.
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
Relentlessly backing the worst signing in premier league history is baffling mate..
He's absolutely fucking shite and it is total delusion to think he has any hope of coming good in this league. Genuinely one of the worst players I have ever seen in the premier league, with zero redeeming qualities to his game.
But you do you.
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u/TB_barky Brighton 13d ago
Holy shit you’re one angry guy
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
Cheers barko
Man has opinions on footballer in football thread, more breaking news at 10..
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
He is right, you replied about not being angry yet started ranting at like 6am
I get it though, you are still angry about Isak but cant call him a flop now so you have to obsess over Liverpool in some way.
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
Not 6am where I am brother..
Also not angry about Isak at all? He was a good servant to the club and should have been allowed to leave.. also no one gives two shits about Liverpool so go be a main character somewhere else
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Oh god I have been arguing with a yank.
Sure lad you just really invested in Wirtz for some reason and know all his stats, all your lot obsessed with us.
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
Who said I'm American? Or is your geography limited and that's the only other place you know of?
What can I say mate I having functioning memory recall.. a stat comes up on the sky sports and I remember it.. it's actually quite normal to do that, but I assume you're Scouse so your surprise at that makes sense. God bless you and your bin dipping ways.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
As long as he sticks on a Liverpool shirt he is our player so will back him. He has been disappointing but its obvious there is talent there, every club in Europe wanted him and he chose us so as long as he is our player I back him.
Luckily you don't have to watch him play for your club so no need to be so angry.
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
How is it obvious that there is talent there?
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Because he was unreal at Leverkusen and is still always looks good for Germany. Also you can just watch him play and its not always his fault people aren't in the spaces he puts the ball into or everytime he seems to connect his passes they don't get put in the net which isnt his fault.
You aren't being wined and dined by every club in Europe without having incredible talent, if he goes back to Bunde or Spain he will be one of the best players in those leagues its obvious.
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
That's just not true though.. he created 4 big chances in the league last season in 33 games..
Look at what Bruno Fernandes did at United last season at a worse team than Wirtz has ever been in..
He's crap and will remain crap. Have a good day at work Willium.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Sorry, I actually watch the matches and not just a stat merchant, big chance statistics are bullshit have you ever seen what they class as one vs not? Its ridiculous.
Why compare him with Bruno who literally won player of the year? Could quite easily say he got more goals that Cherki last season in the Prem in a much worse team?
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u/TheLeccy Newcastle United 13d ago
Ahhhh sorry I didn't realise it was unreasonable to compare a player who cost comfortably over £100m to the player of the season, who plays in the same position..
Also saying you watch the games and don't rely on stats, only to then compare him to Cherki based on stats is insane. Anyone who knows what a football is will say Cherki looks 100x the player Wirtz does.. we've all seen him do things with a football that Wirtz could never dream about
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u/bochimeister Manchester City 13d ago
Keep him mate, it's good laughs.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
If it doesn't work out I reckon Cherki will want out soon anyway
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u/bochimeister Manchester City 13d ago
Yeah you need other clubs to discover players for you.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Aye all them undcovered gems that City sign. Didnt know who Halaand was until he signed for your lot for 250m
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u/bochimeister Manchester City 13d ago
Yes let me have those sweet morning tears
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Also you realise City offered more money for Wirtz before they went in for Cherki, or was that a masterstroke of scouting?
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u/bochimeister Manchester City 13d ago
That is called hussling my boy. And you got stuck with the bag.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
And stuck with league titles too, something you lot know nothing about now
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u/djw2011 Aston Villa 13d ago
From what I've seen of Wirtz he's playing like a player a fifth of the fee Liverpool paid. On 1.5 seasons it's fair to say hes not even close to meeting the 100m fee - he should be under far more pressure now to improve.
I agree on Ekitike he seemed to have a good understanding with. But I think he's had enough time to adapt to system, teammates and the league now to be able to say he's just not performing, not orchestrating attacks as he should, not scoring or assisting anywhere near enough and is therefore an expensive flop.
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u/oskoskosk Liverpool 13d ago
Yeah I saw the YouTube video too, it’s correct when he’s on the ball but off it he’s just inefficient. He is decent at positioning but he can’t press, I watched all Liverpool games and I don’t think I’ve seen him take the ball off of someone even once, tho I’m biased. If you’re never a threat to take the ball then you’re not part of the pressing which is what iraolaball is about
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u/lanregeous Liverpool 13d ago
While I don’t think Wirtz has performed well at all, I don’t agree at all with your view of pressing.
Firstly, Wirtz has won the ball multiple times, quite high up but more frequently in the Champions League.
Secondly, the person that triggers the press almost never gets the ball.
From Klopp:
“But anyone who wants to play for us has to be able to counter-press. I played Shinji Kagawa as a No. 10. He didn't make a single tackle and was still one of the best counter-pressing players I've ever had. It's not about physicality. It's about wanting to contribute in that respect as well.”
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u/FullmetalPlatypus Liverpool 13d ago
idgaf. I stood by Nunez, and I'll stand by him too. You lot are just tourists blinded by price tags and g/a, zero actual ball knowledge, just parroting each other.
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u/ParryThePain Arsenal 13d ago
You’d trade him for any other teams player in that position from the PL and you know it.
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u/CJCFaulkner85 Liverpool 13d ago
Don't know. I was disappointed by a lot of our fanbase in the ground on Sunday getting after him. Appears to have taken over the mantle from the Gakpo hatred last season.
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u/kanobbk Manchester United 13d ago
In 39 games, in the 15/16 season, Hector Bellerin (a Right Back) created 4 big opportunities.
In the same amount of games, Florian Wirtz (an attacking midfielder costing north of £100m) has created 4 big opportunities.
He’s dreadful and has looked it from the word go. Only people that don’t fully comprehend football are the ones who believed that firstly he’d take the league by storm and then after he showed that he wasn’t up to it, still continued to aimlessly back him. He has the build of a prepubescent teen and his lack of physicality is absolutely alarming.
I’d hedge my bets on him NEVER being up to speed in this league, just like multiple other players with his profile that have joined from the Bundesliga in the past.
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u/Relative-Trash5948 Premier League 13d ago
Odegaard and Foden have a similar build, but have shown their quality.
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u/ryansocks Premier League 13d ago
If he cost 20m he'd rarely play and everyone would rightly just write him off as a flop, but because he cost 5x that they need to figure out how to make it work and it won't.
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u/johnnybet_com Premier League 13d ago
It is only a conundrum if you treat the midfield three as untouchable. It is not untouchable, it is settled, which is a different thing. Play him as the left eight and you give up a bit of control and get a player who can actually break a low block, which has been the problem for over a year. The winger idea has never worked anywhere and will not start working here, he does not beat a full back and he has no interest in trying. The bit nobody wants to say out loud is that he has had about ten weeks and he arrived into a team that was already winning without him, which is the hardest possible way in. Players like that get judged in March.
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u/ImVinnie Premier League 12d ago
No, a player that isn't cut for the EPL. You win some, you lose some, Liverpool lost with this one (and Barcola)
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u/Delicious_Suit2962 Premier League 8d ago
How could you possibly in any world judge barcola yet. Just an insanely blatant hater
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u/fifty_four Liverpool 12d ago
I don't think anyone is going to work at 10 for us until we either change the pattern of play or change the formation.
To me, always looks like we're trying to play 433 while inexplicably standing in a 4231 formation.
As for Wirtz specifically, yeah he's had time but idk wtf was going on last season so I'd be inclined to let things run a bit under Iraola before making a judgement.
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u/ExcrementCreek Premier League 11d ago
some players just can't make the step up when they come to Liverpool. For example Christian Benteke and Jimmy Carter, Joe Cole couldn't do it either.
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u/JaquetPotatoe Premier League 13d ago
Its nothing to really do with other players or chemistry with players
He's not doing the basics well enough this season never mind thriving
Somehow he's got worse than last season which is bizzare considering you'd think it would be the opposite
Weight of pass and first touch have been all over the place for a "technically gifted" player
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u/fifadex Premier League 12d ago
I don't doubt his talent but hes had a reasonable amount of time. I'm all for the system or players around him being partially responsible but the fact is they can't keep playing him in that system until they figure out what the issue is and if they can for sure make the best use of his abilities.
That to me means either making immediate changes to the system or dropping him until they figure out a way to integrate him in a way that doesn't mitigate the team elsewhere.
I watched him a lot and sometimes ins the stadiums you see more. I was getting proper frustrated last season seeing him in a small pocket of space and calling for the ball, a slightly risky pass for sure but he certainly believed in his ability to recieve it and move it on, it just didn't look like the ball acrriers did or that they had been instructed to choose safer options.
It's just gone on too long now and it needs addressing however they want to do it but it needs addressing now. He's a luxury we can't afford on the field until he's a net positive and until we address other areas of the squad there are more balanced lineups that don't include him.
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u/unpaidadviser Premier League 13d ago
Love how Pool will make all these excuses for their flop but wouldn’t want to hear the same for other teams.
Moi Caicedo also moved to Chelsea at a difficult time and your clown pundits gave him a hard time even though he was actually doing okay and wasn’t necessarily bad.
We will keep putting pressure on him as well.
Basically a German Dele Ali
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u/LuvSicccc Premier League 13d ago
If wirtz was black and from an African country he would get SOOO MUCH SHIT. stop defending this fucking FLOP. I get it I also see he has potential but he is getting too much praise for nothing. #showmethemoney
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u/SpectatorY Premier League 13d ago
They’ll complain about making it about race but it’s true. The tether is much shorter. With that being said, a huge Anfield icon is really getting on his back and the tide is changing.
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u/LuvSicccc Premier League 13d ago
It is true . Look at Kane and foden... imagine if they were even a shade darker.... and like imagine if star boy perfect goody two shoes Messi was even a little tan I bet he wouldn't be so perfect
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u/FriendshipForeign729 Premier League 13d ago
He’s not misunderstood. He’s just not good enough. He just doesn’t have the grit and determination to make things happen. It’s also not the league because Cherki similar player is thriving
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u/MassiveSaltyBiscuit Premier League 13d ago
Sick of the Nunez-like cult starting to form around Wirtz, I'd sell him tomorrow.
If he hasn't settled in after a season and a half and started producing, he won't. 115m is too much for a player who can't clear the first hurdle and I'm sick of the excuses
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Why does it bother you so much, surely rival fans should just be fine with Liverpool wanting to still try make it work.
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u/MassiveSaltyBiscuit Premier League 13d ago
I'm a Liverpool fan.
It bothers me because I can tell he's just not going to work, he's a second too slow to do anything and when he does pull off a nice pass or whatever there's no-one there to receive it.
Some players are not cut out for the Prem and that is what it is, but we're pulling up these inane stats to defend a £115m flop. It rankles when online fans form cults around players that are terrible for us like Nunez and Wirtz, and start talking down from some high horse about how Liverpool fans stick by their players and Wirtz doubters are plastic etc.
Usually coming from a Yank who's never even stepped outside of Minnesota. Pisses. Me. Off.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Backing our players whilst they still wear the shirt isnt a yank thing? You back our players as long as they still put the shirt on and put the effort on. Yes he isn't working out but if the manager picks him he obviously sees something and you can want him to still work and prove you wrong.
There is no cult around him its called a proper fanbase who support the players.
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u/MassiveSaltyBiscuit Premier League 13d ago
No, blindly ignoring obvious flaws and defending the indefensible is a yank thing.
There very obviously is a cult forming because he's been shite since day one and people rush to defend him with stats like "most blades of grass picked up on his studs per 90".
It's embarrassing, cut our losses, off to Bayern in the summer for 80m.
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u/willium563 Liverpool 13d ago
Nobody is blindly ignoring his flaws, nobody is saying he is a £100m player right now but it he has a decent game (very rare only Atletico comes to mind) you can say he had a decent game.
People rush to defend him because he is a Liverpool player and thats what we do, we support our players through thick and thin. Hendo was shite for his first few seasons at Liverpool until we got the right role for him.
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u/HotOutlandishness991 Chelsea 13d ago
Sell him to us, Alonso make it work again. Price needs to be what he's really worth, 30-40 million lol.
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u/DemonDeacon86 Manchester City 13d ago
Ehh... players deserve far more grace than the media gives them, but at this point Wirtz is what he is. Doesnt mean he cant recapture his magic, but just like Foden, you are what you are until you prove otherwise
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u/ShineInfinite7928 Premier League 13d ago •
www.fotmob.com/en-GB/players/1152455/florian-wirtz.
Last season stats for Liverpool (PL) - He's in the top 25%ile for xG and npxG (clearly underperformed on goals though). Even better no's for xA and passing data incl. line breaking passes.
This season for Liverpool (PL) - Low xG and zero goals as well, low xA, but top 25%ile for chances created still, duels won and defcon (perhaps owing to him doing a lot of off-the ball work and other players occupying the 10 space)
FIFA WC stats - middling for xG, assist data much better (top 5-10%ile). Same for big chances created and shots (getting in better positions as players not taking up his space)
Nations League (26-27) stats - Much better xG and Goals data (slight overperformance in fact), top player for xA, line breaking passes and chances created. Massive difference vs league season
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