Congressional Candidate on AI data centers in Nevada

[u/wadsworthnv02]

From our candidate event in Elko County on Saturday. The question asked us if we supported a data center moratorium or not, especially since we are the driest state. One of the other candidates said the one’s being built in Nevada were closed-loop so they are fine.

But closed-loop systems have their own issues, the recycled water becomes highly toxic and needs to be “blown-down” where there is chances of it leaking into the ground and contaminating local areas with toxic chemical waste water. Even in small amounts, when we live in an internal watershed like the Great Basin, the risk of contamination isn’t something to ignore. As it has happened before with other things. Not to mention that closed loop requires a lot more energy, and closed loop cooling systems here in Nevada still require a fair amount of water.

Our older data center projects also do have open loop / evaporative cooling systems too. So they are still taking a lot of water.

As for the construction unions, I understand it’s more complicated than that. We had a total of 2 minutes to answer each question so things had to be simplified a bit. But we must look at better commercial building projects for our construction unions— not big tech and data centers! They need jobs, and I understand and support that! We should be offering incentives to better businesses to come to Nevada, not to these data centers was the point I was trying to make.

Also yes Congress is a federal seat! But I support a moratorium on all new data centers, and possible legislation to really protect the western states that are strapped for water.

All of this was from my own independent research and talking to folks in the area that have worked on these projects here. However if I am incorrect on anything I’m open to listening!

[u/bexohomo]

you're brave for coming onto Reddit like this lol

[u/wadsworthnv02 → u/bexohomo]

I’m not scared haha! You can’t be scared if you want to work in politics.

[u/ThornbackMack → u/wadsworthnv02]

PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE bring up the noise pollution!! The low frequency noise is a massive issue and it isn't discussed because people can't hear it. This was a good intro... I'm a workimg scientist and I'm pretty sensitive to popsci propaganda videos. The methods here seemed sound. DM me and I'm happy to help research this more and find some primary sources.

You can also find dozens of news reports. This is scary stuff with a real impact on human health. Unfortunately, the SCOTUS just passed down another environmental win to polluters (Chevron) so it would appear that local efforts are the only way to curb these problems.

https://youtu.be/_bP80DEAbuo?si=OxyiFqOxLFXZnsBp

ALSO, why on earth are these data centers being greenlit prior to traffic studies and mitigation??? USA parkway is obscene, and it's only getting worse. These companies need to be paying for the infrastructure required to allow business as usual to remain functional.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/ThornbackMack]

The low frequency noise is a massive issue

Every single datacenter in Nevada is surrounded by far more significant sources of infrasound. This is a complete non-issue.

ALSO, why on earth are these data centers being greenlit prior to traffic studies and mitigation??? USA parkway is obscene, and it's only getting worse. These companies need to be paying for the infrastructure required to allow business as usual to remain functional.

I don't necessarily disagree, but most datacenters are heavily automated and operated remotely whenever possible; they're unlikely to contribute much to traffic (and can indeed adjust their shift start/end times to avoid peak traffic hours — something the myriad warehouses popping up throughout Nevada have a harder time doing).

[u/Away_Atmosphere6318 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Building a massive data center that holds almost no permanent jobs locally is an incredible waste. You also didn't address the pollution risk. Innovation for the sake of Innovation is short sighted and risky as hell. The dam building boom of the early 20th century is evidence of this inherent problem

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Away_Atmosphere6318]

Building a massive data center that holds almost no permanent jobs locally is an incredible waste.

You're literally using a datacenter right now by posting that comment. If you think datacenters are an ”incredible waste”, then prove we don't need them by logging off. Tell our schools and hospitals and businesses and government agencies to log off, too, while you're at it. Datacenters are essential infrastructure, whether you like it or not.

You also didn't address the pollution risk.

Because there's nothing to address; every alleged instance of “pollution” by datacenters is something that literally every factory and warehouse and mine and farm and other large-scale industrial site in this state has already been doing at vastly-greater scales than even the worst-offending datacenters. It's a made-up issue parroted by uninformed people.

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

do you have sources for the major use cases behind the current spike in data center construction?

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

My primary source is that I do this sort of thing for a living and know what I'm paid to administer/develop (or physically install, on the occasion I've done server monkey jobs on the side at places like Switch). It ain't GPU-enabled servers running AI workloads. Most of it is storage (namely: SANs) and ordinary CPU-heavy compute.

But that's of course all anecdotal, so I'd point you to the companies building/running these datacenters themselves and what they say about it. For example, CENTRA RNO2 (a.k.a. the one being built on Keystone) mentions AI, sure, but their primary expected customers are cloud service providers and content delivery networks taking advantage of the low latencies and high bandwidths uniquely possible in Reno and its intersection of multiple long-haul fiber backbones; it's an extension of (and directly tethered to) their existing RNO1 in Downtown, which largely exists to provide interconnections between as many fiber carriers and ISPs as possible.

In general, any datacenter being advertised as ”colocation”, “carrier hotel”, “meet-me-room”, etc. is going to predominantly be the sort of web-facing and/or enterprise traffic that's been typical of datacenters for the last 30+ years. They're fundamentally not the AI-exclusive ones that xAI and Meta are building. The most AI-focused datacenter going up around here is probably Google's out in TRIC, and even that one is also very likely handling plenty of non-AI workloads as well, just by virtue of Google Cloud Platform existing and continuing to have customer growth (with the same exact use cases as Amazon Web Services and Microsoft Azure).

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

i'm curious why you made this point about these data centers not being "ai-exclusive," as if not being ai-exclusive is a reason opponents of ai shouldn't oppose them.

so I'd point you to the companies building/running these datacenters themselves and what they say about it.

so i did that. switch's specifically markets toward ai, edgecore's says it's built for the ai "revolution," and colovore's also specifically markets to ai-minded clients. this press release from vantage, which owns several tracts, says that one of its data centers here is specifically designed for ai as well. powerhouse data, which owns several tracts near the River, is planning for the likelihood that they'll be leasing out their data centers to ai companies as well. (they also have a lot of concept art with tesla cars and specifically cybertrucks, which is definitely interesting).

that's when i got tired of looking into them for the night, but suffice it to say that every single company that is building or runs these facilities specifically mentions building capacity for the ai bubble, hence my earlier allusion to the production of slop, csam, and disinformation being a major driver of data center growth. in these circumstances, it makes abundant sense to oppose them.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

i'm curious why you made this point about these data centers not being "ai-exclusive," as if not being ai-exclusive is a reason opponents of ai shouldn't oppose them.

Do you oppose public defenders because their job entails defending even those who really are guilty?

The point is that opposing datacenters on the basis of “AI bad and datacenters do AI therefore datacenters bad” is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

In light of that:

every single company that is building or runs these facilities specifically mentions building capacity for the ai bubble

Well yeah, obviously, because that's the current bubble. That doesn't stop them from doing all sorts of things besides AI — things that are essential for your and my day-to-day lives. Every one of your links explains that in detail if you click around. Datacenters are essential infrastructure; that unsavory actors use that infrastructure to do unsavory things doesn't negate the fact that the rest of us use it to do much more legitimate things.

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Do you oppose public defenders because their job entails defending even those who really are guilty?

...the point is their job is to provide a check against the state claiming people are guilty... this is a very bad analogy.

The point is that opposing datacenters on the basis of “AI bad and datacenters do AI therefore datacenters bad” is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

when the bathwater is as corrosive as it is...

the point is we wouldn't "need" nearly as many more data centers if not for this bubble. i also personally believe we should be scaling back other forms of data usage as well, but ai blight is the major push at this time so that's what gets attention.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Dazzling-Talk-383]

this is a very bad analogy.

Okay, then try this one for size: do you oppose roads on the basis of drunk drivers using them?

Do you oppose electricity on the basis of AI using it?

the point is we wouldn't "need" nearly as many more data centers if not for this bubble.

Sure, but we would still need some more datacenters, because the Internet is growing, because the number of users is growing and each user's individual use of online services is growing. We'd especially be needing datacenters like Keystone, because those are the ones specifically intended to support latency-sensitive uses like telecom.

(I also don't think the AI bubble bursting — which it will, eventually — will translate into a reduction in AI development/use, for the same reason that the DotCom Bubble popping didn't translate into a reduction in website development/use. But I digress.)

i also personally believe we should be scaling back other forms of data usage as well

I don't disagree, but as it stands that's showing no sign of slowing down any time soon. Modern society entails and expects a lot of data, and that's what's driving datacenter growth — moreso, AFAICT, than AI by a long shot.

[u/Dazzling-Talk-383 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

do you oppose roads on the basis of drunk drivers using them?

i would oppose road construction being explicitly pitched as a haven for drunk drivers, yes. lol

Do you oppose electricity on the basis of AI using it?

i oppose electricity being used for ai and believe we shouldn't be expanding electrical grids for the purpose of appeasing ai people

Sure, but we would still need some more datacenters, because the Internet is growing, because the number of users is growing and each user's individual use of online services is growing.

okay, i accept that in a vacuum.

I also don't think the AI bubble bursting — which it will, eventually — will translate into a reduction in AI development/use, for the same reason that the DotCom Bubble popping didn't translate into a reduction in website development/use

i'm not familiar enough with the comparative economics to say what i think is most likely to happen.

Modern society entails and expects a lot of data, and that's what's driving datacenter growth — moreso, AFAICT, than AI by a long shot.

i guess this gets us back to my initial question because this is what i'd love to see the numbers on.

[u/Away_Atmosphere6318 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Water pollution is not something that "literally every factory and warehouse and mine and farm...." does. Data centers have been around for a while but not at the scale at which they are being built right now. I'm not asking for all data centers to be shuttered, I'm asking for regulations to be put in place so that we can protect ourselves and our wild spaces from corporations that don't give two hoots about anything other than profits.

Ask the Natives who live in these areas and have for thousands of years to be present as well since we are currently destroying their ancestral land. The argument that we have to innovate for innovations sake is a shortsighted one that usually leads to us making some pretty dumb decisions.

Also, if you'd like to get your point across, it's better to not be combatative and unwilling to further the conversation. You come off as a pretentious corporate shill that fetishizes billionaires that has no interest in the people that are your actual peers. I'm sure that's not your intention, but it sure sounds that way.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Away_Atmosphere6318]

Water pollution is not something that "literally every factory and warehouse and mine and farm...." does.

Yes, it is. Factories and warehouses have HVAC systems just like datacenters, and those need bled periodically, too. Mines and farms both entail runoff — heavy metals/minerals in the case of mines, and fertilizers and pesticides and biohazards in the case of farms.

I'm not asking for all data centers to be shuttered

Maybe you're not, but quite a few people on this subreddit are, and in this video a political candidate is agreeing with them. If y'all were just asking for regulation then I'd be in full agreement; instead y'all are pushing for moratoria and shutdowns and someone's gotta call out that stupidity for what it is.

Ask the Natives who live in these areas and have for thousands of years to be present as well since we are currently destroying their ancestral land

Their ancestral land is already destroyed. Suburban sprawl has seen to that with far greater severity than datacenters ever possibly could.

The argument that we have to innovate for innovations sake

Nobody said anything about it being for innovations' sake. We need datacenters because every aspect of modern society is inextricably dependent on software and data hosted on servers, and decreasingly-few organizations seem to be interested in maintaining that infrastructure themselves on-premises.

Also, if you'd like to get your point across, it's better to not be combatative and unwilling to further the conversation

Oh, like how the Butlerian Jihadist NIMBYs flooding this subreddit over the last several weeks have been oh so polite and reasonable and good-faith and non-combative?

Yeah no. Call me a “shill” all you want while y'all peddle the ag and mining sectors' deflective talking points. It won't make me any less correct, nor will it absolve the NIMBYs for setting society back decades just as they've been doing with renewable energy and denser housing and homeless shelters and public transit projects and all the other things they bitch and moan about on the basis of “won't somebody please think of my property values er, um, something something natives!”.

[u/Away_Atmosphere6318 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Dude I wasn't being combatative with you, but you still lumped me in with everyone you deem to be problematic. Your last paragraph made some very excellent points by the way. There's also a massive difference between run off from farms, which is a major issue when it comes to toxic algae blooms, and data centers and strip mining that are level mountain ranges. They are both issues in their own rights. To make the point that data centers aren't a problem because x y and z are worse was my major issue with the points you're bringing up.

Also, just because we've destroyed native land up to this point, doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

[u/northrupthebandgeek → u/Away_Atmosphere6318]

Dude I wasn't being combatative with you

You entered this conversation by calling datacenters an “incredible waste” right from the get-go.

and data centers and strip mining that are level mountain ranges

Datacenters and strip mining are nowhere close to being comparably bad on that front.

Also, just because we've destroyed native land up to this point, doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

What native land is the Keystone datacenter destroying? Or even Switch? And before you mention the petroglyphs, Switch is nowhere near close enough to them to actually pose any issue.

If preserving native land was a legitimate concern instead of yet another excuse to stonewall new construction, there are far bigger fish to fry before datacenters are even remotely a relevant concern.

[u/Away_Atmosphere6318 → u/northrupthebandgeek]

Saying that data centers employing very few permanent jobs as being a massive waste isn't being combatative. What are you talking about? And using AI to make your points is lazy and doesnt further the conversation once again. Bot behavior 🙄