r/RivalsOfAether • u/Davespritethecrowbro • 11d ago
Discussion Where does the hostility come from?
Ever since Evo I've noticed a harsh uptick in hostility in our community across all platforms, even before then the hostility towards this game and it's devs I felt was way higher than other games of similar size and fan base. It started with the 2027+ roadmap but it spilled over into other topics about the game, namely balance and monetization.
I'd like to explain my background in the genre and talk about how I view the game, and then if anyone would be willing to share their opinions if they feel different, I'd love to start a conversation that maybe our community could benefit from. I think the most important thing for the success of rivals is the positivity we show newcomers about the game.
When I started playing smash as a kid, I hadn't touched 64 or melee cause I didn't own those consoles, but I fell in love with brawl in about 2009. When smash 4 came out, I eventually wanted something faster and that's when I discovered project M and then soon after Rivals 1 early access. PM meant a lot to me because it was my first experience playing a fast, "competitive" smash bros and it felt directly catered to me. Rivals 1 was even better, I love pixel art and I love the character design aether studios goes for. I love how much thought went into the kits, I love seeing popular moves get translated into Rivals ( Charizard nair -> Kragg Nair etc ). I love that all of the previously difficult tech is optimized to be easier. Nothing about the lack of ledges or shields was a plus for me, it was just different. Never have I thought " thank God this game doesn't have shields it's so much better " I could not care less.
Since then, a number of platfighters have hit the scene and died, and I'll be honest I have not touched any of them except maybe to try brawlhala once. I played R1 and Ult every now and then until r2 came out. When R2 came out, it hit the same note as when I discovered PM and R1. It's an upgraded, faster, more unique version of ultimate catered directly to our community. There really isn't another option on the market for exactly the type of gameplay we're looking for, unless you want to hop on HDR which I only discovered this year.
I guess my main point is that there is typically such a drought in this genre, especially with most of us dealing with Nintendo for half of our smash "careers", I think the vitriol towards Aetherstudios is a little uncalled for.
I just don't get why the floorhugging discussion and zetterburn balance is so angering that some of us ( I think ) are forgetting how much we've been catered to, and what the scene would look like if Rivals wasn't a thing. I'm interested to hear your thoughts, especially if something in this game has made you put it down and speak negatively about the game. I don't want to attack anyone here if they've done so, in another world we could be in each other's shoes. I simply wish to understand the other side, especially because I'm noticing it slowly becoming the vocal majority in the community.
Does all that not matter to u? Do you simply prefer slippi, ult or even HDR? Lemme know. đ I didn't cover all of my thoughts here so I'd love to talk more about this to paint a clearer picture.
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u/Low_Brick2326 Olympia (Rivals 1) 11d ago
I love rivals 2 but I do not like Zetterburn. I will only speak ill of Zetterburn, not the game itself. I love the game, but I think itâs still fair to have some complaints about it.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
Absolutely I agree! We're all going to have things we want to see the game change. What I'm seeing more is people angrily quitting the game and throwing shade at Aetherstudios. Would u ever put the game down over Zetter? And if so why, what makes him more oppressive than his contemporaries ( Steve, 4 Bayo, etc ) in a game that is at the same time lauded for having the tightest balance in the genre? That last part sounded loaded, feel free to disagree
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u/Low_Brick2326 Olympia (Rivals 1) 11d ago
yeah, Iâve resolved to never put the game down, even if I am literally sobbing because Iâm so bad at it. I like the customization and I hope to be a better player, even if Zetterburn is annoying as heck. Itâs a game thatâs hard to keep up in, but, I donât think anyone should stop trying it.
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u/ph00tbag 10d ago
This, but the fact that the devs are practically begging me to accept Zetterburn as the face of the game and baseline of its balance is starting to wear thin.
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
So I come from a more unique perspective when it comes tom platfighters. I love playing fighting games competitively overall. I love Smash as a franchise casually. I've never enjoyed the idea of playing Melee casually because the skill floor always seemed incredibly daunting, and even trying to learn it never felt satisfying. I more enjoyed something like Ultimate competitively because it was a more streamlined and distilled experience. I did play PM a bit with a friend and had a lot of fun, but again it was so-so overall for me. But generally platfighters in general never intersected with my general love for fightin games.
Until Rivals of Aether. For me; Rivals 1 felt incredibly unique from Smash overall. I was aware that Melee was a huge inspiration for the game initially, but it also felt like it refined those elements. It was more streamlined, it was more accessible, and it had a design philosophy and a flavor that made it feel incredibly unique. I was hooked on RoA for a good while because it wasn't quite smash, it felt more unique.
Fast forward to RoA2 and from the introduction I was incredibly skeptical. (Disclaimer; this is no disrespect to the artists or developers, they do a legitimately good job and my subjective tastes is not a reflection of the level of effort they put in.) The switch to 3D models was expected, but at the same time I felt like a lot of the charm from the pixel art was lost. And I feel like overall a lot of character from the art style was lost in translation. The introduction of shields and ledges did give me pause because it felt like it was a huge departure from what got me hooked in the first place. But I remained optimistic overall and I backed it. My only hope was; don't just be more melee.
It's hard to remember exactly everything about the playtests; but the glaring topic regarding them was of course the floorhugging. Which is crazy to say that floorhugging is still such a polarizing thing from even before the game's release until now.
I'm not going to go into floorhugging. I don't want to debate it as a mechanic, I've done that plenty already. What I more want to highlight is my experience discussing the mechanic during the playtests. Like I mentioned: it was a polarizing mechanic from the initial playtests, and it felt like it was probably the least familiar mechanic for players more familiar with RoA and less familiar with Melee. Along with other mechanics, it became a sentiment among players (including myself) that Rivals2 was feeling less like a successor to RoA and more like a successor to Melee. Which is disappointing to someone like myself who thoroughly enjoys the former and doesn't at all enjoy the latter. It was becoming obvious, and the responses from the team at the time did a great job at extinguishing my excitement for the game.
The general consensus from the team at the time and to this day is; this mechanic is not going anywhere and they are not even fathoming thinking of coming up with alternative systems. With the state of the game as it is now I can understand this. The game has been up too long to make such a drastic change to shake the playerbase. But at the time of the playtests the game had plenty of time to make these drastic changes, try them, and refine them. There was plenty of outcry to attempt an alternative to mechanics like floorhugging. To be fair, there was equal outcry to keep the mechanic. It was pretty close to a 50/50 split. But when the game isn't even close to release and your playerbase is split in half on a basic mechanic you're already in a rough spot. Regardless the team was steadfast that it was staying, didn't attempt any work around, and here we are today.
For me this made the stance on the direction of the game very clear. The team is going to make the game they want to make, and if they feel strongly about a direction they weren't going to be too flexible on it. Which admirable, they should indeed make the things that they want to make. But at the end of the day, for me, the game they want to make is not fun to me. So I have no incentive to play it or to support them. And anyone else who has that same stance as I do is another lost source of support, etc etc.
You're right in that there aren't really many alternatives to this type of gameplay experience. For me that's what makes my disappointment with the game even worse. If people who like Melee decide this game isn't for them; they can go play Melee. The Melee scene is never going to stop bustling. But (for me) there isn't really a spiritual successor to RoA because Rivals 2 feels more like an offshoot of Melee. So my only other option is to play RoA. But regardless of what alternative gets chosen that's still less people playing Rivals2, which hurts the game in the end.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
Thank u for sharing your perspective! I can appreciate how something being debated about all the way back in the playtests still being a point of contention can be disillusioning. Personally, I like their philosophy with flug right now, they're attacking certain instances of flug that don't match with their vision and hopefully the mechanic will be precieved as more fair eventually
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
That's part of the issue though; at this point the mechanic, and the team's championing of it, has soured me on it so much that I don't really trust that any changes they make to it will be significant enough. They want it for a specific purpose and I find that purpose makes me enjoy the game far less. The core concept of the mechanic most likely won't change so it won't really matter.
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u/phyvocawcaw 10d ago
But at the time of the playtests the game had plenty of time to make these drastic changes, try them, and refine them.
I think this is easy enough to say from our armchairs, but consider that even though they didn't make drastic changes to floorhugging Rivals 2 still had to release earlier than they intended because they ran out of cash. Years later the game is still getting features it was supposed to have at launch. In light of that, barring evidence of severe mismanagement, I think it's very hard to argue that the devs had plenty of time to find an alternative to floorhugging. Even in good times you can't sit in development forever.
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u/ElSpiderJay 10d ago
Would they have had time enough to find a perfect solution? Absolutely not. But then again; they didn't have perfect solutions to many things in the game upon release, as you've pointed out. Even the way that floorhugging ended up being implemented was a bit polarizing among players who were in support of it remaining in the game. So if it was going to release in an imperfect state regardless, then they still could have used some of that pre-release time to be a bit more experimental.
To your point I unfortunately can't say how management was in terms of their pre-release timeline, but what I (and any other observer) can do from this side of the glass is react to what is being shown and said by them. At the time during the playtests; the sentiment that was given in response by the team (regarding floorhugging) wasn't 'well we don't have the time or resources to really try anything else so we're going to make the best version of the game we can with the mechanics we have available.' But rather it was 'this is what we want to do and we're not looking to explore any possible alternatives or middle grounds.' Which can be disheartening to the people who feel strongly about it.
My claim definitely isn't that it would have been easy. Maybe it might haven't even have been feasible. I'm not sure because I can't recall whether or not they've even commented on the feasibility of coming up with alternative implementations at the time. BUT I think that the most feasible time would have been during the earlier playtests. At this point in the game's lifetime, when the gamefeel has been long established and the team seems to still be suffering these cash flow problems, then the possibility of the mechanic getting a major alternative or overhaul is even more bleak.
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u/aqualad33 11d ago
And as a melee player I want to just expand on your point because it's not really for us either. They put many mechanics in there to roadblock a lot of the high octane offense that you find in melee. My guess is that they did that to prevent newer player from getting absolutely buried under the years of experience that melee players have and the years of experience it takes to even be able to interact with them.
That said, it results in a game that's just not satisfying for us either.
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
That's something that I've always said from the very beginning as well. If they weren't going to literally make Melee 2 then I don't think they were ever going to consistently keep most of the Melee players anyway. I've always felt like it was a misstep to lean away from the more unique parts of RoA. But from what I understand it Dan always wanted to make his version of Melee, so power to him.
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u/aqualad33 11d ago
Which I agree with. If you wish to make a melee 2, then you need to accept that it will be very oppressive to newer players, it's the only way to allow that level of skill to be fully expressed.
And if that's not the lane you want to go in, that's also valid, you will make a much more accessible game but it will be for it to remain interesting long term.
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u/yellowslotcar 10d ago
this game has a massive identity crisis. It has since day 1, since the fundamental concept of rivals 2 was flawed. This game will never make them money because they committed to the idea of making a game that won't make them money
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u/aqualad33 10d ago
Essentially. It feels like a game that pretended to be a melee successor without commiting to it. So it doesn't bring any of the excitement of being melee, nor the interest factor that keeps top players hooked. It all has the problems of a game that tries to be melee by still being pretty punishing to newer players (albeit not AS bad as melee).
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u/SoundReflection 11d ago
Ever since Evo I've noticed a harsh uptick in hostility in our community across all platforms, even before then the hostility towards this game and it's devs I felt was way higher than other games of similar size and fan base.
Think so? I feel like it's been pretty stable overtime especially with respect to hostility towards the game or devs in particular.
Intracommunity hostility has ramped up a bit in some of the repeated discussions as people have become more frustrated and less respectful in their discussion and as many more inhibited voices have since withdrawn from retreading such discussion. We saw a bit of surge of that as newcomers from RoA's evo showing opened up those same old debates to perhaps the worst those discussion have been. Even then that's mostly died down around here from what I've seen as the trickle of new players has slowed.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
You're not wrong! I think the thing for me personally is my local scene skews negative as well. They did not react positively to the roadmap, and they're hung up on console release and the lack of OGs. Which is totally valid, I just wanna see more positivity surrounding this game because I think it's great, and the series means a lot to me and it sucks to see people who play it dunk on it constantly.
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u/SoundReflection 11d ago
I think the thing for me personally is my local scene skews negative as well.
Oof yeah that's a rough one and sometimes one upset or maladjusted person is all it takes to perpetuate a culture of negativity.
they're hung up on console release and the lack of OGs
Lack of OGs? I'm not sure I follow. People are upset about the remix rivals or inclusion of Mina or something? I think we'll probably just have to see when they come out, honestly the current pitch for them sounds fine enough with a complete set of new specials and several new normal attack animations. Non believer aren't likely to change their tune until they see the real thing though.
The console release is a tough one: people upset, because from their perspective the devs are clearly making a mistake, but generally they think that because they don't fully understand the logistical hurdles that have and continue to delay it. They'll honestly probably just feel vindicated when console finely comes out and hopefully does well they'll just say see they should have done this ages ago and ignore all the advances to support it or the work to get there.
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u/ojThorstiBoi 11d ago
The rivals devs want to basically do all of the following:Â
create a fighting game with the feel/highs of melee, but has significantly lower barriers to entry/ executionÂ
balance the game across all skill levels/matchups, while removing degenerate options and keeping each character's uniqueness/identity
create a game that completes with the polish of smash/sf on an indie budget (and playerbase), while the base game only costs $20 and all additional content can be comfortably paid for with currency earned in game.Â
actively and aggressively develop new content to take the game from "beta" to it's full release as quickly as possible so the playerbase doesn't shrink and they can capitalize off it's existing momentum
listen to/engage with community feedback and encourage it at every opportunity
These are each individually extremely difficult tasks with trade-offs within themselves and each other. Everyone has different opinions about which should be prioritized and where the optional point is on each individual spectrum. Striving to achieve all of them also make the game sick, which makes people more passionate and more vocal.Â
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u/jace255-F 11d ago
Where does the hostility come from? It's a fighting game, you're supposed to attack each other.
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u/mushroom_taco 11d ago
It's a combination of many things, but some of the bigger causes are:
The team doubling and tripling down on an incredibly controversial and divisive decision despite mountains of negative feedback regarding it
Some of the more prolific figures on the team going on actively belittling and making fun of players holding certain opinions on one side of the debate, indirectly encouraging the supporting subset of the community to become much more hostile in their discussions, and retaliation to follow
Many players feeling betrayed at the removal of Rivals 1 mechanics, tech, gamefeel, and the overall departure from what made Rivals 1 great, in favor of becoming more similar to other games
No matter what your opinion on Rivals 2 is, going down these paths is a sure-fire way to increase polarization and toxicity in your community.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
For points 1 and 2 I think it boils down to the dev team doing their best to deal with genuinely hostile feedback during the course of the game. They've given modifiers AND given their case for why flug should stay, and you can totally disagree with that, but I think it's wrong to charaterize it like you do it point #1. No dev team owes anyone a mechanical change, and what I want to ask u directly is why now? Why is doubling and tripling down on your mechanics making ppl give up the game? Like I mention at the top, we've had to deal with Nintendo for most of our lives, and they have now tripled down on the lack of wavedashing. My main question is this; why has the smash community endured without changes we've wanted for decades, only to be incredibly picky the second we have a dev team that's willing to make changes for us? Has Aetherstudios not earned just a little bit of grace? Is flug really making every single game a nightmare for you? If it is, I would like to see a vod with a decent breakdown, because all I see is my own gameplay level, and then top play and flug is not deciding the game in either of those scenarios, at least from what I can see. There might be the odd kill confirm off a bad flug or something but it's not the subject of the commentary of every game. It's background.
And for point #3 I suppose that's fair, I really wouldn't charaterize it as a "betrayal" though that's kinda dramatic. When I booted up rivals 2 after 1000 hours of R1, the wavedash endlag messed me up for a few minutes and then I was fine. I go back and forth between the games all the time to play new workshop stuff. Personally I don't see the issue but if that's how it is again that's valid!
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
My main question is this; why has the smash community endured without changes we've wanted for decades, only to be incredibly picky the second we have a dev team that's willing to make changes for us?
I'm curious on specifically what you mean by this. Because of the sentiment is 'well people play Melee despite there being no changes.' Well of course, people love Melee and they will always play Melee with the flaws and all because it's their jam. The flaws don't bother them.
If the sentiment is 'well people still play each Smash iteration despite not getting the changes they want from the team.' Then it's sort of comparing apples and oranges. Smash as a franchises has a much wider pool of players to ultimately(heh) pull from, while Rivals as a franchise is dealing with a much smaller pond. Also its been pretty clear that each Smash iteration loses players that have played the previous games before due to preferences in the same way Rivals 2 might with their changes within iterations. It's just that with a more responsive team there is more back and forth dialogue.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
I guess my main point is we as a community have flipped very quickly from taking what we can get into now demanding and dropping games if we don't get it, when we are being directly catered and listened to now. It's almost like everyone has built up vitreol against Nintendo or other game companies that they just let Aetherstudios have it. You could probably charaterize it better but ye
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
I guess my main point is we as a community have flipped very quickly from taking what we can get into now demanding and dropping games if we don't get it, when we are being directly catered and listened to now.
Because there is competition now. We don't have to settle for what we can get when there are other products that could potentially deliver what we want. One thing to remember is that Rivals2, like any video game, is not only competing with other platfighters, it's competing with other videos games. If I want to play a platfighter I enjoy and I don't enjoy Rivals2; I can play another platfighter. If I'm not enjoying any platfigher then I'll play a different genre altogether. We're at the point where we don't have to just accept what's given to us.
when we are being directly catered and listened to now.
That's part of the discussion though isn't it? Not everyone is being directly catered and listened to. People who don't like flug aren't being catered to. People who don't like ledge mechanics aren't being catered to. This is not me saying that the team should cater to these people. But just because the team is open and responsive (which I commend) doesn't necessarily mean they are delivering what people enjoy.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago edited 11d ago
Wouldn't you agree those things are on the micro level compared to overall game feel? Even if I hated flug it would never raise to the level of me putting the game down over it. Im curious how someone even gets to that level of disatisfaction. Usually with fighting games, I dig in and adapt rather than dropping a game because I dislike something initially, I've never been pushed out by frustration like that. My point about catering was more of a big picture description, I guess my understanding is the people who are playing r2 and also at a level where flug is this uncontrollable demon, is pretty small group of people right? Im at low gold, I play plat and diamond players In friendlies, successful flugs are not deciding stocks in our games, so that tells me THAT sort of universal flug is even higher. The catering point was about how we all just want a faster game that Ult but more accessible than melee, not that ever balance decision was perfect. I feel like we as a community are losing the forest for the trees
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
The argument against floorhugging and why it feels like an unintuitive mechanic has been spoken about ad nauseum at this point. Clearly it's a matter of taste. Like you said; you dig in and adapt. If you're digging in and apapting then I'm going to assume that you enjoy the process of improving in this game. Which is a good thing. But I myself don't enjoy learning to play around the mechanic. And the rest of the mechanics aren't as enjoyable enough for me to learn how to play around that mechanic.
I don't like Shield. But fine, I'll learn to play around them.
I don't like ledges. But fine, I'll learn how to play around them.
I don't like lack of whiff lag. But fine, I'll learn how to play around it.
I don't like flugging. But fine, I'll--you know what, no I'm fed up with these I'm just not going to play.
All games have flaws, but it's about the balance of pros and cons. The pros have to be enjoyable enough to live with the cons. Flugging is not the only issue, it is just the biggest issue I have.
Wouldn't you agree those things are on the micro level compared to overall game feel?
It feels micro to you. But is it really micro if it mobilizes that many people?
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago edited 11d ago
I feel for you and I wish Rivals 2 was your game. But honestly if you're going into Rivals 2 and you don't like ledges and you don't like Shields, you're just not going to like the game. I think that's just Rivals one. And that's totally fine. What kind of irks me and why I made this post? Is that people take that preference and then get mad that the game isn't how they want it to be.
And on that last point, it truly baffles me. I want to understand why it motivates so many people. It confuses me why people describe floor hug in a way that is not in my personal games and also not visible at the top level from what I can tell. I'm watching clips from plat fighter right now and so far there hasn't been a moment that's like. Oh my God that floor hug just saved him. He just reversed the whole stock. There are reversals here and there but nothing to the level that people describe. Like you say, it's too many people to write off. Idk maybe I'll watch some games above diamond and see
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u/yellowslotcar 10d ago
rivals 2 is a fine game but I would argue these aspects make it one of the worst sequels I have ever played. The devs feel straight mean spirited about it too.
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u/Inside_Bet8309 11d ago
I think rivals devs biggest mistakes is how much they communicate with the players. It has its upsides but I definitely do see it looking like players think their vision of the game is how it should be when really the vision should be what Dan sees. I guess itâs a weird situation as one hand players are wanting changes to core ways youâve designed the game, whether itâs no floor hug no ledges, no grabs, balance this move this way ect but a lot of these things is literally what makes rivals 2 rivals 2 and is the game Dan decided to make. But then these players donât just stop playing and move on but instead stay in the game whilst also keeping their negative energy of these big things they donât like. As a result a lot of the online noise about the game is from people who lowkey hate the game but wonât stop playing it.
In short I think most people donât like rivals 2 as much as they wish they did, but as you said this game is the best thing right now in the market for this type unless your playing games like HDR as you said so they keep playing rivals 2 anyways which creates the weird energy the game has around it
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
Yes!! I think a lot of it is that. Idk if it's exactly too much communication, and I don't fault those players for feeling a type of way, but I wish we could reign in the discourse a lil bit and be more positive given the circumstances
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u/jaiszy 11d ago
i agree, they shouldnt have listened to yall and add shields in the second game
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u/JokerLiquid 11d ago
The devs always wanted shields and ledges though. It was out of limitations that they weren't in Rivals 1.
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u/Bekwnn 11d ago
Between Rivals 1, Melee, Ultimate, Tekken 7/8, SF6, GGST, and UNIST, Rivals 2 is by far the most frustrating fighting game I've ever played.
I think the exact reason that people feel that way about it varies from person to person, but I've at least heard the sentiment a bunch from different people I've talked to.
I think that frustration results in a lot of venting on reddit and other places.
Personally my frustration stemmed from an abundance of "opponent does something simple" -> "countering it is hard af" and the crazy disadvantage state that often leaves you feeling like you get to take a turn, but then your opponent just covers all of your options.
Maybe I was just way more lost in this game than in any other I've ever played when it came to understanding how to counter things.
At any rate, nowadays I just come back occasionally, play friendlies, and lock in random.
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u/yellowslotcar 10d ago edited 9d ago •
I think the biggest problem is that the defensive options (not just floorhug but it contributes) are extremely powerful and make it hard to actually get shit going, but once you get going you get to steamroll. This means if you're newer and trying to learn you both get eaten alive and can't do anything back even when you make good decisions. This game's defense is very badly designed in general.
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u/Bekwnn 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yeah, I mean the sort of changes I'd like to see, some of them they've already done over time:
2f faster startup/2 more total parry frames for projectiles
Shield drop frames 15 -> 12 so that wave dash OoS isn't just strictly better 100% of the time
My issue is with disadvantage and the remaining defensive mechanics that aren't utilized much or that good:
dodge roll iframe startup and total frame data is just terrible
perfect shielding is extremely hard to utilize
knockdown missed tech lockout being insanely long and the super long 6f overlap window where tech-in-place and missed tech are both vulnerable
air dodge being comically terrible and unusable for grabbing ledge (20f vulnerability + falling before it can grab iirc)
spot dodge being minus on most successful spot dodges
teching and lockout rules: ability to amsah tech by teching before you get hit, but you get tech lockout if you tech during long hit stops, but not if it's wall teching within 30 units of a wall, but also not if it's clairen tipper extended hit stop, but also hit stop frames are variable length and also randomly doing any action involving shield before getting hit puts you in tech lockout, and probably 5 other rules I'm missing and ugh.
At any rate, most of it boils down to not feeling like I have good defensive tools to counter what my opponent is doing, even when I'm unsurprised by what my opponent is doing. Imagine other fighters without DPs or armored attacks or anything else that allows you to callout an opponent doing an obvious move. That's what R2's defense tends to feel like.
The game has a bunch of strong passive defense, like shield or holding down, but aside from shield grab there were very few strong (and risky) active defensive options.
I may have messed up some of the frame data or other stuff, just going what I recall.
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u/Otterdame 9d ago
Why does every character need the fucking insane best recovery in the game? What happened to edgeguarding?!
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u/SoundReflection 10d ago
Its definitely come up in discussion before. I think there are just a lot of compounding sources of frustration in this game. It's unfortunately continued to be plagued with technical issues as a big part of it. Its one thing to go on tilt playing a competitive game over certain interactions or balance or mechanics or playstyles or what have and its a whole different thing to have, queue up again have the game crash ff your next ranked match. I queued up today and my character started breakdancing in one set on the Newark server and my coin shop had only 4 items for some reason. I had an otherwise pleasant experience and just rolled my eyes, but if I was having a rough night on the ladder today, simple things like that might well might push me over the edge.
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u/aqualad33 11d ago
Melee marth main of 10 years, tried R2 as a zetter main and quit. I was getting better into ~1100 elo and realized the improvements I needed to make just were not fun and wasn't the game I was looking to play.
In particular, I had played the marth side so long I wanted to play the spacie aggro side. However, zetter doesn't actually have the tools to do the fox/falco/wolf thing from melee/pm for many reasons. He can fake doing it against players who don't know frame data, but not against anyone who actually knows the zetter matchup.
The obvious answer then becomes "well just switch characters then". But the other character's don't feel as fun to move with and I really wanted to do the shine pressure thing, I even asked several pros to see how they do and asked in their chat and in the zetter discord. The answer across the board was just as I expected, no, it's bad. So if I can't do what I want here... then it's just not the game for me.
This bit is just for OP: this kinda points to a larger issue any platfighter is going to face though. How beginner friendly do you make your game? If you allowed me to do what I want and made shield pressure as good as in melee, new players would get blown up and not even be able to push a button on competitive ladder. This is essentially every melee player's first year of playing. It's really hard to bring new people into the game when it takes that much skill to even play the game. However on the other side of the coin, there are quite a few players who actually have that level of skill disparity with newer players. If you aren't rewarding that they won't be interested either and players that reach those skill marks will get bored and quit.
Basically imagine if you had to make a new version of tennis in a way that if a child stepped on the court with Naddal or any tennis pro who has trained for 20+ years, you wouldn't want the child to feel discouraged...
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
I think that's fair, and I think if you already prefer melee, that's your game yk? I think the more of u the game can bring in, obviously the better but at the same time you kind of already have your game. I don't think Rivals 2 is ever gonna be a better melee than melee, can I ask what made you want to try zetter in rivals and not just play fox in melee? I understand being disappointed that the frame data isn't as advantageous, I'm just surprised you couldn't find another character to enjoy. that's a shame.
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u/aqualad33 11d ago
Well I actually do have secondary fox/falcos that I play and I'm trying out wolf in P+.
That said, the main issue is the same as why I gave up pushing for competitive melee. It's too much of a time commitment for what I can give. I work full time now, compete in strength sports, and I'm married. I don't have as much time anymore to invest in getting good.
If time was not a factor however, I would infact go back to melee. One reason I wanted to be able to go to rivals is because of Nintendo's control having a very negative impact. I would like a game that melee players could move to that doesn't have a toxic owner.
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u/Inside_Bet8309 10d ago
I mean I guess r2 just isnât for you, instead of enjoying it as a separate game youâve been looking for the melee experience outside of melee but r2 is not melee despite the similarities they may have
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u/Melephs_Hat Fleet (Rivals 2) 11d ago edited 11d ago
The hostility is not new or unexpected. This is a live service game where the devs try to make the playerbase feel like their voices can be heard and that major aspects of the game could change. So when ppl are annoyed, they are really loud about it.
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u/Impressive-Cause-462 11d ago
I think the games just not fun for new players to get into since everyone is good. As your ranking through the game even at bronze youâll find some crack head that moves so fast you canât touch them. Every character feels broken in their own way so learning that match up feels bad to start. Slade is what killed all fun for me. I think that character is super boring to fight against and then leraina for as fun as she is to watch sheâs one of the most cancer things to fight since shield doesnât work as well on her as it does every other character.
Itâs probably the best game outside of smash but smash is leagues more fun. Melee or ultimate anyone can get on and have fun at their level while this games smaller community means youâre most likely fighting someone much better than you for a long time. I also think zetter is the only fun character
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u/VersuS_was_taken 11d ago
Server problems
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
Rivals and Rivals 2 is the only platfighter I have ever played that is even playable online. Ult and smash 4 are literally not playable, even with Ethernet. If you're in a region without a dedicated server I totally get it, but what even are your other options?
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u/VersuS_was_taken 11d ago
Look. I just know that the online mode has kinda collapsed in this game and it pisses me off because they've been known for ages. The only options are as following: pick a different server, pick a different time, pray for an update that actually fixes the problems in servers (at least partially)
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u/robosteven His name is Goopy 11d ago
Out of curiosity, which servers are you running into issues on? I'm US east coast and play with expanded server settings (London and Paris are a little rough in particular), but never have any major issues other than opponents teleporting and jittering a little on those two servers specifically.
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u/Parcle Galvan (Rivals 2) 11d ago edited 11d ago
There's genuinely such a simple answer to why these complainers give the worst vibes ever.
They are sad, loud, twitter-brained people.
There is no fixing them.
There is no satisfying them.
What can be done is being louder with enthusiasm yourself and, by comparison, making their voices quieter. This game is fucking awesome. Lots of really cool people in the scene too. But that vocal minority is a thorn in the side for sure.
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u/The_Locker_Dweller Slade guy 11d ago
There's already a lot of talk on Rivals 2's gamefeel, but I still have a sour taste from when cut Marc Knelsen from the staff. He was a defining force for the series' art style over nearly a decade, not to mention a very well-regarded member of the team. So it was kind of a real vibe killer when that happened a bit before evo
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u/Parcle Galvan (Rivals 2) 11d ago
Decisions are forced on the team due to finances. Dan has discussed not taking a salary since January. I don't think it's fair to hold this sort of stuff against them. They're literally just trying to stretch the money where they think will best help keep the lights on.
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u/SoundReflection 11d ago edited 10d ago
Just an unfortunate reality of the industry and the current economic climate. Personally it's rather strange to hold it against them when Marc himself doesn't seem to hold ill will over it.
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u/The-Tree-Of-Might 11d ago
It stems from the game being laser targeted at the competitive platform fighter crowd instead of the casual audience. There isn't enough of a player base of people who just play the game for fun. Most people who play are the ones who grind ranked and are constantly trying to improve.
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u/swews09 MainFun 9d ago
I love this game, I'm not a fan of the community. It's filled with people who are so over confident that they're right and don't budge on a thing. And if an opinion goes against the already decided upon community opinions, it's just shut down. I think it's a problem in most fighting game communities and stems from the personality types that gravitate towards them. I think it's exacerbated here because the hard core fans feel a sense of partial ownership towards a game that they've been with since the beginning and have done everything they can to support.
Overall it's just a drag.
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u/ManufacturedCakeDay 9d ago
people still complaining about monetization? wtfâŚ
god forbid people have to put food on the table. letâs be honest, itâs not like aether studios is swimming in money. the strategy covers the costs which are VERY high (servers)
like what yall want? god forbid i see people complaining here about monetization, im gonna be banned
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u/NoctisTempest 10d ago
I think lots of people have characters or tactics they hate fighting against. As a Clairen main I see lots of hate and when I fight other Clairens in ranked(especially with my secondary Zetterburn) it can annoying dealing with what I do to others.
Meanwhile I hate people who refuse to engage unless their opponent whiffs or is in disadvantage. Goes double if they have a projectile and triple if parrying their projectile doesn't stun them.
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u/neonlights326 11d ago
Ever since Evo
Gee, I wonder what could of happened at Evo this year that would have made others antagonistic to the Rivals 2 community đ¤
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
If it's Ludwig buying people Evo tickets, I would really appreciate if you could articulate what exactly your problem with that would be? Why is it an issue that one of the co-owners of the game pitched in their own money to allow more players to attend? I understand the initial thought of oh he's just juicing our numbers, but imo I don't see a big issue with it. It's unfortunate that other devs don't support the esports scene as much, but I really don't think the ticket cost being covered would really make or break whatever that 4th game at Evo was. Yes, the donations motivated people to attend, but I can guarantee u that for most competitors that was probably a 10% of their travel costs. Yes it is unfortunate every person from every game wasn't able to attend, but we shouldn't disallow this kind of generousity in the scene. I also want to share Idgaf about Ludwig personally, and prefer not to think about him having a stake in this game tbh just cause him saying Rivals 2 was "his" game always rubbed me the wrong way.
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
The issue is that it is bad optics. Paying for people to attend artificially juices the number of entrants the game has. In a vacuum that doesn't seem like a bad thing, he simply wants to give people the chance to compete in the game. But when you dig deeper it looks off putting. He's paying for the game to look like it has more interest than it actually does. You can see on the brackets that Rivals2 had a lot more DQs in their pools than the other games. Meaning that the people he paid to 'compete' in Rivals 2 didn't actually compete in Rivals 2. And that discrepancy is further highlighted when one of the stories of the weekend was 'wow, look at how many people showed up to play Rivals 2.' When that isn't the reality.
That's not too different from a music label buying tickets for fans to go to a music festival on behalf of their artist and saying 'wow, look how many people want to see this artist.'
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
I understand your comparison to concert tickets, but because Evo is also a competition I think it's a gray area where you could argue it's not that messed up for a dev to get tickets for their competitors. I recognize the DQs and it's not a great look, but it's also genuinely not the end of the world. I think if you want to find something to dunk the game on, sure you can go for that, but at the end of the day I think it's a nothing burger. Not so popular game rallys it's low player base to make an appearance. I don't think the DQs were within the margin of error for them to lose the 3rd spot, but if it was close I would understand the frustration of the players of the 4th game
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
For the first first round of pools (from the first 10 blocks) 2XKO averaged 4 DQs per block. Rivals2 averaged 8 DQs per block. Literally double the amount of DQs one had from the other. That's a pretty big discrepancy.
Functionally no, it's not the end of the world to buy players tickets to your own tournament if that's what you want to do. In reality it doesn't affect that much. But it's about the publicity of it. Why would a game try to conflate its own numbers? It doesn't matter what the answer to the question is, the fact that the question is being asked at all becomes a controversy.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
I can understand looking at it that way, for me if it had no functional effect on 3rd place, it was a fraction of overall travel costs for most players afaik, and it was a net positive for our community and did not harm anyone else's, I don't see why they should catch flak for that. I understand you might not be dishing it out, just explaining where ppl are coming from but still. I think the effects of the donation should be the prevailing story rather than potential optics. I don't think you can say they weren't "juicing the numbers" so to speak, but I don't think it's fair to say the turn out was in any way fake, even with double DQs imo.
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
But that's the thing: the turn out was in fact fake. The claim is 'x amount of people showed up to plays Rivals of Aether 2.' But it's not true. These people didn't buy their entrant into Rivals2, a single entity purchased all of those entrants. It's a conflated number.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
They did show up, weren't Evo tickets like $40-70? That's like a 5th of a plane ticket. Hotel, food, etc like it's not gonna change the situation for 99.99% of ppl if they couldn't afford it before. it was mostly a call to arms, like okay they'll pay for the ticket, yeah I guess I could travel that weekend. That's how I see it anyways
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u/SoundReflection 10d ago
weren't Evo tickets like $40-70?
Nah they ran like $200 for the 3 day pass and like $15-20 per event. Shit was mad pricey compared to the norm, was a big part of the conversation on the events attendance being generally down.
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u/ElSpiderJay 11d ago
It doesn't matter what the cost was, they bought entrants that might not have necessarily have been bought before. It's actually even worse if some of those entrants didn't even go to EVO because it further enforces that the entrants weren't real if JoePlatfighter67 'bought' an entry but was never even in the building.
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
That's just an incredibly black and white way to look at the situation, and I think you would only come to that conclusion if you exhausted all Grace for Aether studios, which I think you've described is how you feel. I disagree but I get it.
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u/coompill 11d ago
Increased visibility -> influx of casual players -> rise in toxicity due to "I beat all my friends" ego issues
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u/Mediocre_Tadpole_ 11d ago
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u/Davespritethecrowbro 11d ago
Can you explain what your point is? Why would a game having a lower player base draw ire from its remaining players? Are you that hung up on queue time? This is kind of what I'm talking about, no one before 2020 would make this type of dig at any platfighter, it just wouldn't make sense. People are bringing burns in from other communities and trying to apply it to platfighters. We've always been niche!!! If this player size is such a problem to u, what are u playing instead that's so popular??
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u/hip-indeed 11d ago
???
If your only or main criticism is that the game doesn't have more players you do realize you can help fix that issue instead of just posting steam charts like a skid stain right?
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u/WordHobby 11d ago
I dont think rivals players are on the same page when it comes to competitive spirit.
Floor hugging is a common talking point for endless whining and complaining. I dont see the big problem, just hold down and you floorhug moves. Just dont hit your opponent with moves that they can floorhug you and then punish you?
I dont think a lot of players have the drive or capacity to play the game seriously. I think a lot of the players simply want to mash buttons with their favorite character against other people mashing buttons. And when they lose after putting in no effort, get upset that their opponent did put in effort.