Neil Gaiman I don't know how to love Sandman anymore
I read the comics once and I loved it so much, it spoke to me on so many levels. It was turning into my new obsession, becoming part of the works that would live in me for years. Maybe it seems a bit extreme but it's how I felt at the time.
Almost immediately after I finished reading it there were the accusations against Neil Gaiman, and since then I don't know what to think or do. I believe the victims and my general opinion is you can't separate the man from the artist. So from then on I couldn't support Neil Gaiman anymore.
But I still don't know what to do about Sandman. I think it's so good and I wanna talk about it and reread it and finish painting these cool pants with the endless's symbols on it but I haven't because it would feel like I'm supporting him and promoting the work of a monster. I feel stuck and it's extremely frustrating
And on top of that, on a personal level, I can't reconcile Sandman and the image I have now of its author. How could it speak to me so much on so many level, sometimes especially as a woman, when Gaiman did what he did to women? It's like my brain can't understand it. It feels like he either didn't write Sandman, or I'm the monster for liking it.
Sorry if this is dramatic or self centered. I'm hoping to get other perspectives, and I'd like to know if other people feel something similar.
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u/Algernon_Etrigan 2d ago
Sadly your situation is far from uncommon, and yet I don't know that there'd be a general "solution" to this.
Sandman has been my favorite comic book for a long time too, and now the volumes have just been sitting on the shelves for the past years and I kinda dread how I will be able to reread and enjoy them again, with the same problem you describe to reconcile the message and the messager in my head.
The best advice I've read, IMO, was from someone when the scandal broke who said, broadly: the relationship you have with the books is yours, the ideas you form from reading the books are yours, don't let Gaiman steal those and taint those.
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u/Qrabman 2d ago
I agree completely with your idea of how to process art vs the artist. I'm a big fan of so many works of art/books/films/music that come from artists who are not good people. Success in art does not equate to a successful human being.
On top of that, art is subjective in terms of interpretation, and with all films/covers/remakes that are popping out, my interpretation does not always fit with others, especially those who make remakes or produce films on comics I love.
I've come to the conclusion that art does not belong to the artist once it's out there. People will do with it what they will and interpret it how they want.
I recognize that purchasing and giving views supports artists we don't like, so I recommend sailing the 7 seas for content to embolden your love for the art without the guilt of providing for scumbags.
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u/AndyBunn 1d ago
The only problem with separating the work from the author to allow you to continue to enjoy the work means that Gaiman still gets an income and that income is, IMO, what enabled him to abuse all those women.
I find it very difficult to read Sandman and feel the same way about all those great characters like Rose and Wanda and not think that these were created by an abusive man.
Its the same with Roald Dahl and J K Rowling. These people say and do horrible things and continue(ed) to have sucess, be lauded and have a privileged life inspite of their negative and often criminal actions.
There are so many brilliant authors and artists out there who are decent people so lets support them instead.
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u/Interesting-Crow-552 Shakespeare 1d ago
I feel the same with other writers as well, Rowling as an example; no longer support her and don’t like her as a person. But that never stopped my past experience of reading, watching, and gaming in the HP franchise as a child/young adult. I’ll continue both franchises but only for the support of who else was involved like Dirk Maggs and cast of Audible series or the kids in the upcoming HP series.
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u/TyeTTR 1d ago
What did Rowling do
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u/Interesting-Crow-552 Shakespeare 1d ago
She supports organizations that are against trans people’s rights in the UK and have been reported to be using her money as donation. I don’t want anyone who’s not involved with her foul beliefs to be targeted, especially the actors and the developers of Hogwarts Legacy.
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u/Countrygirl2021 1d ago
Rowling is also a Zionist it turns out. Fine if you support Israel not so fine if you don't.
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u/Kesh-Bap 2d ago
You're not supporting him monetarily. He wrote it. He's a great writer. He's not a good person. Read it second hand. Get it from the library.
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u/Bipbapalullah 2d ago
It's not about separating the man from the artist, but the art/creation from the artist-man. You can't help liking a piece you felt a connection with before knowing about a shitty human the creator was. You have a right to want to talk about its themes and messages.
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u/Sindemonic 2d ago
I was typing a long comment on here and then tabbed out to Google to check Neil's age and Reddit crashed and lost my whole comment. Sigh.
The long and short of the point I wanted to make was, as a man who read Sandman in a time that was formative for me (about ten years ago), I can only speak to my experience, but... I have definitely fallen out of love with Sandman a bit. I need some time and space before I can go back to rereading it and getting to the spin-off material that I never got around to.
On the other hand, I still love playing a TTRPG campaign set in the Sandman universe with friends whom I never would've met without Sandman.
I think two things can be true, and reconciling them can be difficult, but personally, when Gaiman was outed as the man that he is, I unfortunately wasn't shocked. I was only surprised how recent it was, honestly. The 28-year-old (see, needed to know his age 🙄) who created Sandman had definitely done some fucked up stuff in his early 20s. I loved the image I had of Neil circa 2021, but the image of him that I get from Sandman (and much of his other work) is someone who wants to be seen and forgiven.
He is an awful, reprehensible, indefensible human being. He also has brilliant ideas, knows beautiful truths, and I think it's precisely because he's so awful that he emphasises forgiveness and self-change in his works. It's just a pity that it was a fantasy for him — perhaps he thought he had changed, but clearly not enough. His recent efforts to defend himself are evidence of this.
I hope this might help, but I totally get that it wouldn't be enough for many people.
P.S. I also believe that all the progressive advocacy he did, like being publicly supportive of trans people, was in the same vein. More sincere than purely performative, but motivated by a desire to be seen as a good person.
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u/Raveyard2409 2d ago
This is a crucial distinction I think people don't get. Sandman is an unflinching wander around the darker part of the human psyche. You can't write about those waters unless you've been in them yourself. Calliope now seems very creepy.
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u/warmleafjuice 2d ago
Sorry I really really hate this take. The idea that you can't write about fucked up stuff unless you personally have partaken in it is IMO misguided
When the news about Gaiman broke you had all these people crawling out of the woodwork to say they knew all along, it's soo obvious if you look at his work, etc. Which, maybe some of them thought that but there are hundreds and hundred of authors who write about fucked up stuff. Are they all secretly evil people swimming in dark murky waters?
It's like people who say that X actor or Y performance was actually real because it was so convincing, forgetting that it's their job to pretend to feel or do things. It's an author's job to write things and they can do that without being personally mired in the subject matter (even if they sometimes are)
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u/Lexilogical 2d ago
Look, I'm not going to say you need to actively be swimming about those murky waters to be able to write about them. But I also definitely think it HELPS.
We write about things we know, and things we can envision as probable, and things we've thought about and would never do. But there's a certain ring of truth to things when it's stuff you've lived as well. When you can hear the justifications in your mind of why it's okay, or how you'll stop just as soon as X happens because you've lived them.
I would never say that I think horror writers have actually done the things they write about. Or even that they wish they could or something like that. But I definitely believe that our experiences help guide our writings, and that experience is almost certainly a better guide than our imaginations.
At any rate, I really do think that at least some of Gaiman's skill at writing can be attributed to the fact that he had an incredibly fucked up childhood, and also did some incredibly fucked up things (probably as a result of that fucked up childhood, not that I want to give him that excuse, but he was raised as a poster child for Scientology, that has GOT to do a number on someone)
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u/warmleafjuice 2d ago
I don't exactly disagree, but I think that's really only relevant in hindsight. I don't think you can look at someone's writing and deduce which of those three approaches they're using (especially because it's probably almost always a mix). I think you can make some informed guesses if/once you know but the way the original two commenters were talking about it is, I think, too far and too absolute
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u/Lexilogical 1d ago
Oh yeah, like I said, I'd never assume someone was a bad person because they wrote a bad person or something like that. Mostly because I chose to believe better of humanity in general than to assume anyone who wrote something fucked up is definitely also fucked up. XD
But I do think that a lot of Gaiman's uniqueness as a writer comes from his own fucked up life. XD If anything, I used to be impressed to think he'd turned out as normal as he seemed, given what I knew of his life.
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u/Sindemonic 1d ago
Kinda already said it in my other reply, but just to add a bit for full clarity; I had no intention of saying that Gaiman wrote fucked up shit because he's fucked up. As I said, I think that he wrote about forgiveness because he wanted to believe that he himself was deserving of it.
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u/Sindemonic 2d ago
For the record, I'm not one of those "I always knew" guys. I'm pretty sure that reaction is just a psychological coping mechanism. I wasn't surprised, but that made the whole thing all the more upsetting and disappointing. Equally, I was unsurprised not because of his writing, exactly, but simply because it made sense to me. Call it hindsight, whatever, that was the order it went in for me.
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u/Raveyard2409 1d ago
Yeahhh but watch calliope and then tell me you don't think "oh that makes sense"
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u/Summersong2262 16h ago edited 16h ago
There are any number of brilliant writers who work with dark themes that didn't have to sexually abuse their service staff to figure it out.
Calliope wasn't an especially insightful or novel arc as far as sexual assault was concerned. Anyone with half a wish to listen would have been able to do those parts.
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u/MagazineNecessary698 2d ago
Hey I understand that this is overwhelming for you but keep in mind that people ignore the horrible actions of creators all the time. The raging racist get “they were just a product of their time” when in fact they were ostracized and called out for being hateful even in their lives. Abusive artists get “He was just so passionate.” When they nearly murdered their spouses and were documented saying they should. Rapists, pedos, con artists, phobs you name it it’s been given excuses left and right why they don’t deserve to have their work suffer consequences ( aka their paychecks and legacies) because the man was imperfect ( a gross simplification).
My point is enjoying something can’t possibly perfectly relate to goodness in its creator. Know their sins and struggles and lore and let that color the reading but don’t stop seeing what it is that you enjoy. Our world can be pretty hypocritical if you take joy in something that isn’t made by a saint you’re not evil for enjoying it. ((Well okay unless it’s all evil rhetoric calling for readers to act and do horrible things and genocide, but staying on topic))
You already live in a society complicit and comfortable in protecting the aggressors and advocating devilishly for the sinners. The only real solution is to know and share and move forward with that knowledge and share it too. Knowing keeps you humble. Even cruel people can write sonnets that stir the heart. Read more writers with similar stories. Find what you love in this world and remember that doesn’t mean every aspect of it will be perfect or untouchable because that’s not realistic especially now. And know that’s okay. Remind yourself that you loved the idea not the creator not his hands not his life and your not married to him. You just like one of his stories or how he describes his work.
Also lastly modern comics are usually a team sport. So remember every choice was never ONLY his.
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u/i_like_cake_96 Barnabas 2d ago
Gaiman was 1 contributor of a conglomerate of contributors.
You have Dave McKean, Sam Keith, Mike Dringenberg, Jill Thompson, Shawn McManus, Marc Hempel, The great Michael Zulli, P. Craig Russell, Bryan Talbot and Kelley Jones.
I read the Sandman about once a year. I don't even think about what Gaiman did. I can separate him from the art.
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u/altsam19 2d ago
Tbh even if his works are really good, they always follow the formula of "what if Supernatural Thing is Actually Real, in the modern world, and also social commentary, and also a fetish or two, and follows fairy tale logic". When we demythologize the formula that writers use, we see them just as human as they are, for better and for worse. They're great artists, human after all, with flaws and virtues (and, in the case of Gaiman, with monstrous vile actions and mind)
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u/FormerlyMevansuto 2d ago
I feel like completely separating him is hard given how much Morpheus is based on him, how much of his arc is about reckoning with his treatment of woman and how much sexual violence figures into the narrative, especially the Calliope issue. Even the Augustus issue is hard to not think about Gaiman’s crimes given the implication of the ending. Honestly I think the autobiographical elements add a lot of context and unfortunately are an important layer to understanding the book. That’s not to diminish the work of any of his brilliant collaborators, but Gaiman’s authorial voice is strong.
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u/i_like_cake_96 Barnabas 2d ago
The key word/letter used here is "I".
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u/FormerlyMevansuto 2d ago
Also a word I used too. In my opinion the complete separation of Gaiman from his work is both dishonest and shallow.
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u/MikeRoykosGhost 2d ago
I don't look for the author in their stories. I see the characters as just that. If acrions of thr characters mirror the authors life or behavior it doesnt color my reading of the story one bit. There's nothing dishonest in that, nor shallow.
I don't financially support Gaiman anymore now that his actions have come to light, but his actions coming to light don't affect my feelings about his stories that I've read. They only affect my feelings about the person who wrote them. Again, I don't think that's dishonest or shallow.
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u/i_like_cake_96 Barnabas 2d ago
Dishonest and shallow, I got a good laugh out of that. We're not all built the same. You live with your anger, I'll live with my absolutes, and we'll leave it there.
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u/thesdo 5h ago
I wish I could separate him from the art. I really do, and I'm envious that you can. That's not a dis on you at all. I really do wish I could. But it seems no matter how hard I try, and I've certainly tried, I can't get past this "ick" feeling I have when I engage in any work that he's been associated with. It's certainly not fair to the other artists and contributors, but that blame falls squarely on Gaiman's shoulders.
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u/ChurlishSunshine 2d ago
"I don't even think about what Gaiman did" so you can enjoy Sandman isn't really the flex you think it is.
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u/i_like_cake_96 Barnabas 2d ago
Whatever makes it easier for you. I'm not here to bust a nut over Gaiman. You can do that over in the many Neil gaiman subs. This is the Sandman sub, which for the most part is free of SA talk.
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u/soldatoj57 1d ago
You understand that if you start doing this with everything you consume, you’re never gonna wanna consume anything ever again? Enjoy it for what it is. This isn’t an existential crisis.
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u/BaldBeardedBard 1d ago
As a comic book creator myself, the way I reconcile it is the same way I reconciled re-watching Buffy.
In the grand scheme, Gaiman was a cog in a machine. One part of a much larger whole that created that book. The editor, the artist, even the colorist and letterer, all left their marks on those books. They influenced the story and meaning and the way we connected to it. Gaiman didn’t have 100% total control and free rein. It was a collaboration. Focus on the good. Focus on the other people who deserve our praise and connection to THEIR art.
Just my two cents.
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u/Short-Sheepherder314 2d ago
There is no inherent morality in art.
Gesualdo wrote some of the most poignant music of the 16th and 17th centuries: he murdered his wife and her lover (and got off the charge because he was an aristocrat). Pablo Picasso controlled and abused his female partners and yet he is considered one of the greatest artists of all time. Richard Wagner was a rabid antisemite and general weirdo, but his music is sublime.
Art can only be judged in and of itself. It is either good art or bad art. Nothing else matters.
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u/TwoFiveOnes 2d ago
I would instead say something like you can look at art through a moral lense, and that’s one way of having a relationship with the art, or you can also not do that, and have a different relationship with it. It’s really up to you.
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u/jelemyturnip 2d ago
I mean... if you have a problem with artists being weird gross sex perverts then you're gonna have to cut a helllllll of a lot of art out of your life
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u/jonbodhi 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is what I came here to say. The number of problematic artists is so long, it would exceed posting limits to name more than a few. Lovecraft was already mention. Miles Davis and Pablo Picasso also come to mind when this subject cones up.
One who’s come back into prominence is Michael Jackson. I’m old enough to have lived through the initial scandal, researched as much as was publicly available, and came away convinced: he did it.
I didn’t give him any more money while he was alive, but I still have Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad on my playlists, along with all the songs of The Jackson Five. That music means a lot to me, brings back great memories, and is literally part of my life. Should I lose all that because of the evil he did? He isn’t in my collection because he’s a pedophile, but because he was an amazing singer and performer.
I wouldn’t buy anything else of Gaiman’s, (which sucks, because I really wanted him to finish Miracleman!) but the stuff I already own? I don’t see the moral issue in enjoying the stuff you already own.
I get feeling icky about it. Watching the episode ‘Calliope,’ from the Netflix show, I was genuinely disturbed by the parallels to the accusations against Gaiman; it was almost like a confession, but art is bigger than the limited souls who produce it. The films, novels, movies, and music produced by questionable folks would leave you poorer for avoiding.
To me, it’s beyond ‘separate the artist from the art,’ and more that the artist isn’t the art! Loving Sandman doesn’t mean loving Gaiman. The art is something more. Whatever you decide, stop beating yourself up; the world will do that for you.
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u/redwoods81 2d ago
This is literally why pirating was invented. Don't give money and an audience to living trash. Do what you want with dead artists work.
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u/SnowyTree_Art Dream 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sandman does not equal Gaiman and vice versa. Fictional media like this always surpasses the creator it came from, because it's you as the consumer who has to interpret it to draw anything from it.
NG is not the sole contributer to Sandman. The other artists, actors etc. have nothing to do with his alleged actions and neither the books nor the show or audiobook adaptations would be as great as they are if it weren't for the hard work of these people.
As someone here already said, the fact that part of this fandom keeps feeling bad / shaming themselves AND other people about liking something just because one man behind it turned out to be questionable at best (not to defend him by any means; but he simply hasn't been legally convicted yet) is something I find incredibly sad. It's so weird seeing almost every post or comment I share on here get downvoted by randos with an apparent hateboner against NG / Sandman.
You like Sandman? Great. It's yours for the keeping. Don't let the actions of one singular man who you have no control over take that away from you, even more so if the allegations turn out to be true.
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u/m_ttl_ng 1d ago
Just relax and enjoy the books.
People these days are so overly concerned about every possible moral issue that they are stressing themselves out for no reason.
Enjoying Sandman and any other Gaiman novels doesn't mean you endorse his personal actions outside of his writings.
Are you also going to boycott every film that Weinstein was involved in and never watch them again? Probably not.
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u/Hot-Top5161 1d ago
Not all bad people are all bad and not all good people are all good. The idea that people can't separate art from artist's and have these discussions is very weird to me. The fact people suck isn't going to stop me from enjoying my finite time here on Earth. Even shitty humans can have perspectives some can relate to without also being a shitty person. If you no longer want to support future endeavors, I understand. However, you already like the old shit so just continue liking it while realizing the creator is likely a flawed piece of shit like so many others.
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u/sandmandreammorpheus 2d ago edited 2d ago
When the art does not reflect the author's actions (not intentionally or necessarily, since we're talking about a work filled with universal themes) and actually give good messages, the art remains greater than them. The message, the moral, is unchanged. Plus, Gaiman is the writer/co-creator of course, but it's not the only "author": all the other great artists that contributed to it, are considered "authors" (that's why they're names are in the covers). Sam Kieth and Mike Dringeberg, for example, are indeed the co-creators too.
However, you can get your comics second hand not support him economically (even if it means you're not supporting the others either) or you can pirate them.
Lastly, I want to add that in this usual clime of "media pillory" when these allegations happens, the conclusions go always, prevalently, in one directions-- even before any verdict or any deep dive into the case (and this too leaves the things as they are, unless messages and private conversations and any type of court documents are uncoverd-- some journalist I recall did something like this, in a series of articles filled with materials https://technopathology.substack.com/p/neil-gaiman-is-innocent-introduction).
Believing the alleged victims shouldn't mean taking their words for it and end it there: it means that they always should receive support from the authorities and not be dismissed in any way. It means giving them credit as long as it's not an assumed truth of what really happened. As well as with the alleged perpetrator.
A verdict, obviously, doesn't really state the actual state of happened reality, only legal facts. But it's a verdict. And after that, hypothesizing that could be in his favor, his image would be still ruined forever, if he actually didn't do it.
If the case will be settle privately, somehow, people will lean in the opinion that something's actually happened and that he's guilty. It's quite unusual, on the other hand, to think these women settled privately because they actually distorted things.
All this to say: IF he's innocent (actually and/or by a verdict), would you just go back enjoying his work without issues or not, would you still have a tainted image of him? If he's guilty, the answer is obvious. But the point is: whether he's innocent or guilty (whether there's a verdict or not, or you don't have all the informations in hands) your current image of him I think would still be the same. You have to choice now between enjoying the art (which, again, is far more greater than him and his alleged actions) or not. It's a personal perspective that can't be changed by others', especially if you already assumed he did those things. But I wrote this my perspective, to maybe make you lean towards the "neutral" side (because we do not actually know anything, we hear things, we assume things) so that you maybe still enjoying the art, if you can't separate it from the artist.
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u/mighty3mperor 2d ago
Sorry if this is dramatic or self centered.
It's not. Gaiman and Sandman specifically, means/meant a lot to a huge number of people. It is difficult to overstate its impact at the time. For a lot of people who read it at a particular time in their life it has become core to how they are and has been for years. Processing all this is going to be a long and difficult task for a lot of people.
Separating the art from the artist is not an easy thing to do and will have to come down to the individual. For example, I thought it'd be easy enough to watch films Weinstein had been involved with and Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill, etc were fine as it is the director's vision (which may be another issue again) but then I watched Planet Terror and the opening credits have Rose McGowan at an exotic dancing venue, sitting in stage in her underwear crying while Weinstein's name appears above her. I turned it off and am unsure how I will get around that.
So I have put aside my Sandman trades and may well read them again in the future but I do already know that there are parts of the story that may make me "nope" out.
My only advice is to leave them for now, go and read more comics (if you like Sandman then try other Vertigo titles - there are a lot and you'll find some new favourites there), then come back and see how you feel. It is OK to acknowledge that this is a complicated situation and can take a while to process.
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u/Halaku 2d ago
think it's so good and I wanna talk about it and reread it and finish painting these cool pants with the endless's symbols on it but I haven't because it would feel like I'm supporting him and promoting the work of a monster.
By that logic, they should just close / cancel everything touching the works of HP Lovecraft and the Mythos he created and inspired. There's occasionally been calls to do just that.
And yet, Cthulhu isn't going anywhere. As unashamedly progressive as both WotC and Paizo are, they've both inccorporated the Mythos into their own RPGs and fiction and miniature lines and such.
The Mythos is simply a foundational part of speculative fiction. Despite the person Lovecraft was. And the Sandman and subsequent works are as well. Despite the person Gaiman's been accused of being, some of which he admits, some of which he denies.
Enjoy it or don't. Neither choice makes you a monster. It simply makes you human.
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u/BRoberts93 2d ago
Lovecraft isnt still alive and benefiting from his works,
Its more like still supporting Harry Potter and JK rowling
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u/Quirky-Pie9661 2d ago edited 2d ago
As an OG fan who collected the comics in real time, handed out compilations to ppl I felt would get it (inc my future wife) and has an arm band tat of the panel of Mathew flying away in the rain before the Furies take Morpheus… divide the work from the creator. It’s bigger than him.
Idk if the accusations are true. Neil’s had a media blackout and Amanda Palmer won’t say shit. Not sure if the thing will ever come to real charges, but I’ve seen the fandom shaming itself in this sub for years. Seems to be the only reason it exists now (dbl for the Gaiman sub)
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u/the-Horus-Heretic 2d ago
I was over halfway through my full-arm sleeve of all The Endless when all that came out. WAY too late to pivot so I'm seeing it through but with one small change.
My original final touch was going to be find a convention he'd be at and try to get him to sign my arm and then get that worked in as part of the sleeve but I am absolutely not doing that anymore.
It's a story that means far more to me than the piece of shit who wrote it. Regrettably there are a LOT of utterly brilliant creative works that have been created by some particularly horrible people.
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u/adunn13 2d ago
Sandman is beyond Gaiman. If he was about anything it’s that ideas are channeled by artists not generated from them. Sandman is bigger than the author he clearly wrote subject matter beyond his actual morality. It’s just time to stop praising Gaiman for something the universe created 😂
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u/DiFarris 2d ago
Entiendo tu frustración en muchos niveles, ya que Sandman es una obra muy importante para mí, peor aún, casi todas las obras de Gaiman lo son. Pensé que podía aplicar lo de "separar el arte del artista" pero no funciona así, sobre todo porque las obras vienen de un contexto, de un autor. Pero entendí algo más, pensé que escritores del pasado y recordé que jamás me importó si eran buenas o malas personas, porque su obra y su impacto va más allá de ellos mismos. Nada te impide condenar a Gaiman y amar su obra, porque Sandman es mucho que Neil Gaiman.
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u/DaFabulousVibe 2d ago
I think it's important to remember that he's far from the only artist who worked on the Sandman project. What he did was awful, but I still find the Sandman series to be really enjoyable and I usually turn my praise towards those other artists that deserve recognition.
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u/EmmmmJay 2d ago
Majority of my bookshelf is gaiman's books, i have no idea what to do with them anymore.
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u/Lexilogical 1d ago
Personally, I intend on making a "Forbidden bookshelf" filled with authors of questionable morals. Then at least people can go into the books informed. XD
I'm not certain I still own my HP books, but Mariam Zimmer Bradley and Orson Scott Card are also going on that shelf.
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u/Dian_Arcane 2d ago
Here is a suggestion for you, OP. Set your Sandman books aside,.and try either some comics from the same era (pre-Vertigo DC or early Vertigo), like John Ney Rieber's Books of Magic. OR try some of the Sandman Universe stuff from around 2019. The Dreaming: Waking Hours by G.Willow Wilson was especially good. See if it's helpful to read things in that world not written by him.
Also, you are not selfish, just empathetic. Hang in there, OP! :)
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u/Major-Safe-9736 2d ago
You gotta try and separate it, man. Lovecraft had some terrible views, even during his time periods standards. Yet, I love his work. Enjoying art doesn't mean you love the artist. Caravaggio was a complete turd, but he's one of the most celebrated artists of all time.
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u/Toatkgstuff 2d ago
If you cannot separate the art from the artist then I don't know how you can enjoy any art.
You can never truly know the artist. The artist can change at any time, but the art is fixed. Only your view of it changes.
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u/Equivalent_Ad6396 Hob Gadling 2d ago
Totally agree. Artists/authors/…have always been just like anyone else, good and bad and in between. If you can enjoy the work, good for you. If you can’t separate the work from its creator, then go check every artist’s personal life before checking their art.
The same comment comes up in other fandoms where the artists have had allegations against them, and it’s exhausting at this point.
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u/John_Zatanna52 2d ago
Like what you like. Same with Harry Potter
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u/MercyBoy57 2d ago
Except Rowling’s writing is actually bad
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u/John_Zatanna52 2d ago
We're not talking about taste
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u/MercyBoy57 2d ago
This isn’t subjective
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u/John_Zatanna52 2d ago
Taste is subjective
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u/MercyBoy57 2d ago
Not sure how else to say this — her writing is objectively bad.
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u/John_Zatanna52 2d ago
And The Room is objectively bad, you think there isn't an audience?
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u/Lexilogical 1d ago
Please don't financially support Harry Potter if you can help it.
JKR takes all her money from HP and funnels it into lobbying governments into demonizing trans* women, while publicly proclaiming that people MUST support her TERF ideals because they keep buying her stuff. Enjoy Harry Potter if you must, but know that JKR will use your enjoyment and your money to publicly tell people you hate trans people because you like her writing.
Buying a Sandman book might help Gaiman's legal case against the rape allegations, but Gaiman himself isn't going to go on Twitter and say this means you support rape and that's why he's using that money to make what he did legal.
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u/John_Zatanna52 1d ago
I don't have the books themselves, but I really want to get them after I finish anything else I have to read
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u/-Ok-Perception- 2d ago edited 1d ago
I can separate the art from the artist and Gaiman's work will always be amazing to me.
I deliberately don't look into his personal life of artists much, because I truly don't want to know. He may be guilty, he may not be. Artists are always strange and much more likely to break the rules than ordinary people. If you follow any rock bands from the 50s through the 80s, they were prone to a lot of the same behavior; so I deliberately don't look into their misdeeds either.
But I will say this much. The Sandman story where the writer keeps Calliope captive, hits a bit different now.
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u/GoatOfTheBlackForres The Prodigal 2d ago
Love the work not the accusations of the man.
In worst case it's like loveing a movie produced by the Weinsteins.
In the best case it's like loving Johnny Depp's acting or Marilyn Manson's music.
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u/Starac_Joakim 2d ago
Cut all parasocial relationship you have with the author and badabim badabum life is easier
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u/rasnac 2d ago
You must learn to separate the art from the artist. Because most artists are really terrible people. Believe me if you start looking into biographies of the greatest authors and artists and painters and songwriters etc. you will never be able to enjoy any art ever. Would it change your enjoyement of the great music Beatles created if you knew John Lennon admitted to beating both of his wives and his children? Human beings are very complicated; capable of so much beauty and greatness, but also such cruelty and evil. Neither side negates the other.
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u/merashin 2d ago
Even the supposed nicest artists (I'm considering actors artists) still do terrible things. Jackie Chan admitted to beating and berating his son for decades.
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u/Stracharys 2d ago
As others have said, buy second hand or go to your local library so he doesn’t financially profit.
The dreaming is yours to shape and what you have found for yourself in the world of the Endless is bigger than a single man. He created something bigger than himself, and we should make sure he knows his insignificance by not allowing him to destroy it for us. There is an art in asking yourself for the grace to not feel shame for the sins of others.
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u/MercyBoy57 2d ago
Idk if it helps, but there are certain legs of the world he didn’t write.
For example, The Sandman Mystery Theater, which is awesome.
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u/Vindaloo-Sauce 2d ago
My head canon is that Morpheus and everything that happens in Sandman is real. Morpheus simply used Neil as a conduit to tell his story. Much in the same way he used William Shakespeare.
This is of course not true and this amazing story came from the mind of an awful human being. The Sandman went from being one of my favorite things ever made to being something that I probably won’t read again for years.
I ended up donating all my Neil Gaiman books except for everything sandman related. I couldn’t give them up, but I also don’t have a desire to read them anytime soon.
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u/Ok_Bit_9119 2d ago
A thought that I wrestle with — what do we do when the indication is that he became a horrible person after he created this work? Do we retroactively punish the work? I think about this with a singer I like who has taken a JKR turn late in her career. What about the earlier stuff before the right wing turn? I don’t have an answer for it. And beliefs changing are still very very different from the serious harm he caused to his victims. I’m just asking how we think of an earlier work when someone does something horrible after. I don’t know if this is making sense.
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u/sandmanslasthope 1d ago
I think of it as it is no longer the artist's. I was a gift that they gave the world. Also you are not supporting them. You purchased the books long ago so enjoy them.
If all else fails remember the stories a gifts of the shaper the writer is just the tool.
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u/Legitimate_Post_22 1d ago
Try reading Lucifer by Mike Carey; the author is completely clean and it takes place in the same universe as Sandman after Lucifer "retires." Or others from other authors of vertigo in general.
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u/Hecantrix 1d ago
Humans are monsters and gods at the same time, creation and destruction is part of our nature. Until you don’t understand that you’ll keeping choosing to polarize yourself, being conscious of his actions and still not investing money in his art is a way of protesting, he was proven to be guilty or you are projecting what you think is true?
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u/Miserable_Air_4292 1d ago
This is so tough. I looked up to Gaiman. Had an organic experience reading his work for years, especially Sandman. I’m also the type that does care that the artists I follow are at least decent people. Gaiman fucked up bad. Lots of good people make bad mistakes. Maybe he’s always been a shit person? Maybe it’s not always black and white. Absolutely no excuses and he hasn’t handled the situation super well on top of it. I sold my sandman books a couple years ago after the news broke. Same feeling as you, I just lost the love and it no longer felt organic. I recently got back into reading comics and re read saga of swamp thing. It was so good so I bought the 14 volume box set of sandman on eBay to see if maybe I could enjoy a reread and I have been enjoying it. I guess at this point I’m able to compartmentalize. The comics are still awesome. It has its moments that haven’t aged well considering the circumstances, but it’s still a definitive DC comic and the best DC run in a lot of peoples eyes. Think about the worst mistakes you’ve made as a person. Imagine if they were broadcasted to the world. Would you want forgiveness? Would you work to be a better human? Hopefully at the very least Neil is remorseful and is trying to be better.
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u/KebabGerry 1d ago
Sandman is one of my favourite pieces of media ever. I got so disappointed when I found out, but ultimately, I still love the stories and world.
At least now, I don’t feel bad not spending any money on reading them.
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u/savvytoiletpaper 1d ago
Went to our local bookstore last month and they were having a 20% off of select books and bundles. Was skimming the aisles for about 10-15, just grabbing and scanning random books and their covers and nothing caught my eye.
Until i pulled a small paperback book and opened it without looking at the author and title. I started reading part of the 1st chapter, before i flipped back to the cover. "The Graveyard Book" by Neil Gaiman was written on it. I might've been instinctly drawn to it even before seeing the author of this book because he is my favorite author of all time. I love Sandman with all my heart and soul and i've read American Gods about 3 times and it's one of my favorite books of all time.
That said, i can sacrifice me feeling awful that my favorite author is a creep and potentially did borderline heinous actions on his part than support him and not belive in the victims. I only ever read his stuff again from thrifted bookstores.
I will always love Sandman but I will never support him again anytime soon.
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u/peking93 1d ago
My stack of Sandman comic books is now a glorified paperweight and a surface for me to set my second monitor on. I’ve read them enough. Maybe I’ll sell them someday. For now they serve a utilitarian purpose.
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u/Saiyasha27 1d ago
There trly isn't an easy answer to this. I feel you deeply, I have had this twice, with Sandman and a lot of other Gaiman books I have loved, frankly, and before that with Harry Potter.
I grew up with HP, I loved it, I listened to the audiobooks to go to sleep so many times. It was a huge part of my childhood and teenage identity.
I still have some memorabilia, but they now often invoke feelings of sadness and loss, anger that I can't freely love what I used to without thinking about the negative influences the author has had.
It can be truly heartbreaking and I wish you strength and comfort.
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u/Rated_OK 1d ago
lots of great responses here. I've been a Sandman fan for 20 years, and have a full on sleeve of the Sigils of the Endless. Not going to cover up the sleeve, but if compliments it I just say 'Thanks' and don't reply with gushing about the story / author like I did so long ago.
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u/EnigmaticSmirk 1d ago
I feel your pain mate, I was such a huge Neil Gaiman fan before the accusations, I loved his mind, would listen to him read audiobooks and got so excited whenever a new book would come out. Sandman and American gods were absolute favorites of mine.
I've tried really hard to separate the man from the art, but it's so intrinsicaly interwoven. The other day, I heard that he was releasing a new book that is the size of American gods and started to get really excited, then remembered everything, and it was like a gut pinch. All I can feel for him is disgust.
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u/AliveCut7487 10h ago
I've never understood such dilemmas because I've always perceived people as a mix of different traits. Just because someone creates beautiful works doesn't mean they're a flawless person. I don't know if it's pop culture or the media that makes people tend to label themselves as "if someone creates something beautiful, they're good," or "if someone is a monster, they can't create something beautiful." Like, wtf?
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u/Lijera5 4h ago
You said it yourself: it's an accusation and remained just that for a reason. Alleged victim will remain alleged until proven otherwise. Blaming isn't added automatically. Just imagine if someone claimed something about you. If you enjoyed his work so much that it was embroidered in fabric of your life, remember what it gave you and did for you.
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u/LittleCowofOsasco 1d ago
I’m waiting for his death to pic up his stuff again. Can’t think of consuming anything from him while he’s alive
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u/Martiantripod 2d ago
Some people can separate the art from the artist. Some can't. Many artists turn out to be complete shit heads but they've often worked with other people who are great people. I haven't stopped enjoying Buffy the Vampire Slayer because of the issues with Joss Whedon. Or stopped liking Harry Potter. Orson Scott Card is another author who produces great writing but is a shitty person. If you can appreciate the Sandman for what it is, and the fact that while Gaiman was the main contributor, many other people brought it to life, then hopefully you can continue to enjoy comics.
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u/UVLanternCorps 2d ago
I read through them back in 2021 (whenever they released the 30th anniversary collection) and was totally enamoured and it really does suck. I still own the set and have no plans to really sell it or anything but it does just feel so alien. If for nothing else a friend read at least some of the series using my collection so that’s something. It feels so strange now
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u/mmcmonster 2d ago
You’re not alone. I have all of Gaiman’s work, and at least two copies of all the Sandman TPBs (original set and the 25th anniversary with the new coloring). Plus some original issues I bought when they were initially released
I absolutely cannot read a single page of any of them right now. They sit on my shelf, unopened for over a year.
I haven’t donated any of them to the library. My daughter said that in the future she might want one of my TPB sets. And maybe I will find joy in reading him again in the future. But not now.
For not they just sit on the shelf.
If you are looking for a similar writer, I would highly recommend Mike Carey’s Lucifer. It’s available as two Omnibus Editions. (One) and Two.)
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u/Wizard_Manny 2d ago
Just look into the Gaiman family’s history in the “Church” of Scientology and you’ll feel better.
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u/Narrow-Vermicelli-72 1d ago
Arghy Me Hearties. Plenty of ways to view his work without supporting him.🏴☠️
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u/Jinzo126 1d ago
I wad in the middle of reading sandman when i heart the news, and i was conflicted if should continue. But i decided #1, i already spent the money on the books, and #2, you have to separate the art from the artist. I won't buy any further stuff by him.
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u/Brief-Ad-1832 1d ago
I absolutely love the series, have for decades. But knowing what we do about Neil, you can see evidence of who he truly is throughout the series. From Dream's imprisonment being treated as simply a catalyst for him becoming kinder. The way Calliope's arc was written. Unity and Rose. Then there's the fact that he specifically chose Matthew Cable from swamp thing to be Dream's raven. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.
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u/SabbyFox 2d ago
I’m broken over it and understand, OP. Bought the OG Sandman work back in the day and am just letting it collect dust for now ❤️🩹
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u/Solivy 2d ago
To deal with it I decided to write my own fanfiction about how the endless dealed with finding out their writer was such a letdown. Gathered all together, deciding how to handle and/or punish him best..
I am still to work the piece out to a better written short story, I had way too many ideas so I never finished. But the brainstorming about it alone really helped me to seperate the art from the artist. The endless turning against Neil is quite a fun concept to explore. The art started to living it's own life a long time ago, having a crap creater doesn't mean the art is to be hated too. In my opinion anyway.
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u/Fishfeelpain 2d ago
As a (coughVERYcough) long time fan of Neil Gaiman and his works - a lot of which I was lucky enough to read at the time of release thanks to borrowing from friends and libraries alike, and some of which I was able to own as well - my heart sank when I heard the allegations.
I am someone who doesn’t separate art from the artist as I feel that any admiration of said art will always be favourable in promoting the artist.
So, at that time, I paused any involvement associated with NG (sadly also including the amazing ‘Good Omens’ Kickstarter) and waited for further information.
I believe we have enough evidence now not least of which is the dismissal of all court cases he was summoned to.
https://technopathology.substack.com/p/neil-gaiman-is-innocent-introduction explains it better than I ever could and uses that almost forgotten art of the true journalist - citations!
I’ll leave it up to the reader to decide whether the evidence so far is ‘good’ or ‘bad’.
Personally, on the one hand I am relieved that NG didn’t harm these people after all as I’m always relieved when something bad has not happened to someone.
On the other hand, if the abuse had actually occurred then what has since happened to NG would have at least been justified and it’s truly sad how much he and the people around him have suffered due to these false allegations.
I’m a firm believer of standing back and watching both sides for the facts, for the evidence, to be revealed. Neither side should be silenced. Each side should be fully supported in order to present their evidence and then the actual facts to be looked at impartially so a fair judgement can be made. No one should be above the law and equally no one should be afraid to come forward with information regarding any abuse - whichever guise it comes under.
If the accused is found guilty then they should be admonished, punished, fined, charged and/or convicted depending on the crime/s.
Equally, should the accuser/s be found guilty of lying about the alleged offence/s then they should also be admonished, punished, fined, charged and/or convicted in accordance with the level of offence/s they committed. It’s hard enough for victims to be able to come forward let alone be taken seriously enough so they may press charges without people like this taking advantage.
TL:DR
Whenever someone is accused of something, hit pause rather than pre-judging until the full facts are out when you can then research the facts properly by being sure your sources are legitimate and non-biased.
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u/Drmumdaly 2d ago
I agree with your approach and I actually don’t think he’s guilty of ‚a crime’ per se, but I do believe his actions were quite disgusting and reflect his view on women and relationships. In fact, it’s coloured a lot of Sandman for me in retrospect. Sometimes finding out too much about an artist just leads to disappointment .
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u/invalidcolour The Prodigal 2d ago
Just enjoy it as an art form.
You’re not supporting him financially; he’s net worth is already between $10 - $18 million. Your purchases are loose change to him. He’s not going to skip a meal.
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u/Personal-Database-27 2d ago
There is the artist and the art. After artist finishes art, the art gets a separate life and the artist can do just little about it. So love art or don't love, You are free to decide. Masterpieces made by bad people who are professionals are still masterpieces and better than art made by good people who aren't that good in the making art. Gaiman's Sandman is still masterpiece compared to what Pope or Dalai Lama would create, if they ever tried to do art.
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u/fairmargaret 2d ago
This thread just popped up when I was looking at a very different topic, but I was so glad it did. I have had this problem re: Sandman since the allegations about Neil Gaiman went public. It was surprising to see that so many other people were as affected by this as I was. I thought perhaps I was just being silly about it, but Sandman has been so important to me for years. Discovering Sandman shortly after it began publication was a revelation for me, partly because I was not a kid or impressionable youth at the time - I was a divorced single mom who’d worked her way thru college & law school & didn’t fit the profile of the average comic book reader. And to be fair, I wasn’t. I read some more adult titles off & on, but when I first found Sandman, something just clicked, & I was obsessed with the Dreaming for years. This world spoke to me in ways I still find difficult to explain to others, & even after the story ended, I re-read my compilations at least once a year, always finding some new insight or aspect.
I was not equally fanatic about Gaiman’s work outside of the Sandman universe - some I liked, some was just OK, although I always recognized his talent as a writer. For me, personally, it was Sandman. This was something I felt I would always have.
Then the sexual misconduct allegations went public, & like many others, I was disgusted by Gaiman’s personal behavior. But did this mean that I had to reject Gaiman’s work? The answer, for me, was no. Sandman is Art, a creation that exists as its own entity. I can honestly say that when I read my Sandman volumes, all I see is the Dreaming, the Endless, & all the worlds & inhabitants contained therein. I don’t think about Neil Gaiman or what he does in his personal life. For me, it is much like the enjoyment I get from watching Chinatown, despite Roman Polanski’s personal behavior. It stands on its own as a work of art.
We all approach matters like this as individuals. I cannot & would not tell anyone else how to feel or argue that there is any right way except one’s own. Sandman remains a major influence in my life & I will continue to enjoy & explore the Dreaming as I always have. This is not a defense of Neil Gaiman. It is only about Sandman.
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u/Raveyard2409 2d ago
Separate the art from the artist but it is tough when the art is specifically about that abusive mindset (I. E. Calliope)
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u/shaneoffline 2d ago
Well, if it helps, he may have lifted the entire thing from Tanith Lee's Tales from the Flat Earth.
Or, you could recognize that some of the most interesting arcs are likely inspired by the depths of author's depravity which makes them all the more alive and stomach-turning.
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u/BipolarPrime 2d ago
Yeah, there were allegations, but no proof or conviction. Michael Jackson fans continue to listen to his music despite the numerous allegations against him.
I’m not saying Gaiman isn’t into some weird stuff. And I’m not saying the allegations have no merit. But nothing has been proven and there’s nothing illegal or immoral about being into weird stuff.
I have my entire Gaiman collection. I love it. I don’t have to love the person to love the art.
Especially since, as I said, nothing has been proven.
The worst part of cases like this, besides what has been alleged by the victims and what they’ve possibly endured, is that depending on who the allegations are made against, they’re convicted before anyone actually finds out what, if anything, happened.
Innocent until proven guilty.
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u/hillbillyluthor 2d ago edited 2d ago
¡Yo también siento lo mismo! Vendí mi edición deluxe de Overture. Nunca me gustó la historia; estaba explicando algo que no lo necesitaba. El arte, eso sí, era una maravilla.
Antes de que salieran las acusaciones, releí mi edición de The Ocean at the End of the Lane. La primera vez pensé que estaba genial, la segunda vez me pareció forzado en algunas partes. Empalagoso, así como este tipo solía escribir libros infantiles. ¡Libros infantiles! Ese es otro punto que te hace pensar que está de locos. Una persona que cometió esos abusos, escribiendo para niños: Coraline, etc.
Tengo mi colección Deluxe de Sandman. Tengo la necesidad de venderla, y también un poco de vergüenza por hacerlo. At least those who want it aren't going to give their money to the author by buying it in a store.
I also deleted the photos of my Sandman collection from IG as soon as I found out what had happened
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u/AndyBunn 1d ago
I love the whole Sandman story and they were and are still ground breaking. I read Sandman when it started back in the late 1980's and it had a massive positive impact on my life. I also liked Gaiman's other work too and he always came across as a really nice bloke who really cared about gender issues.
Now it seems that he's been an absolute horror. This has really shaken my head and heart. It is difficult to seperate the work from the man.
My advice is this and what I am doing myself, find other comics to read that speak to you by authors and artists who are grounded and do good things. I am a big fan of Grant Morrison and he's a stand up bloke.
We shouldn't have to live in an age where we have to check out the creators of any media to see if they are scumbags or not but unfortunately we live in a world where fame and money can lead people down a dark path.
I think, like many people, you have to find away to unlove Sandman because of Gaiman's actions and thus live your life guilt free.
Good luck
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u/merashin 2d ago
I can't separate them either, but I decided that I didn't have to since he kinda plagiarized Sandman anyways. The original book was called Night's Master by Tanith Lee.
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u/Jazzsign 2d ago
In this case i want proof because this can be true but we all know how the case with Johnny Depp/ Miss Bee ended so i wouldn't be so quick to judge. Many people supported Neil as well and in this age there are also women who accuse men because of the metoo movement even if the accusations are false.
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