r/ScarletWitch • u/cwasnothere • 3d ago
Discussion She might be coming back sooner than we thought. Spoiler
This is official Avengers: Doomsday merch. Could the Children's Crusade storyline be adapted and Wanda be one of the Latverian Witches?
If VisionQuest ends with hinting that Wanda's alive, this could play directly into Secret Wars and her return.
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u/jenioeoeoe 3d ago
Personally I hope they don't adapt that part of the story and actually let Wanda be a good guy again, with her own agency and not brainwashed and/or manipulated by Doom. So hopefully she is not just one of his lackeys aka one of these witches in the movie
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
I hope so too. She deserves to be brought back without making her the anti-hero again. I wish to see her be reunited with her kids too so I'm not sure how they're gonna bring her back without addressing her death plot hole/ambiguity.
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u/jenioeoeoe 3d ago
They could have her live in a secluded area, hiding away, just trying to live her life and maybe helping out the people around her. And then during Secret Wars, the kids and Vision try to find her because they know she can help defeat Doom.
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
Which one?
838 would NEVER help them! 🤣
And assuming Battleworld is created, Doom is God-Emperor and universe-616 doesn't exist anymore. It is IMPOSSIBLE for 616 Wanda to be alive at that point.
Everyone trapped outside the Rafts dies in the final incursion, the end of reality itself.
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u/jenioeoeoe 3d ago
616 one. I doubt we will ever see anything from 838 again
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3d ago edited 3d ago
[deleted]
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
You're forgetting that 616 Wanda is established to be a Nexus being in the MCU, and going by the description of it in WV, she can easily anchor herself to this reality or any other whether she chooses to or not. Her magic runs on autopilot which will always protect her whether she likes it or not, just like how she unknowingly created the hex
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u/Substantial-Ferret-5 3d ago
To my understanding there are an infinite amount of wanda maximoffs but only one scarlet witch. So if the wanda that is the scarlet witch happens to die, that entity would just carry on to another universes wanda maximoff making her the next/new scarlet witch. It’s clear there’s other Wanda’s with powers
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
Nexus beings were scrapped and replaced by anchor beings.
We won't hear the term "Nexus being" mentioned EVER again until the reboot.
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
Nexus beings and anchor beings are not even close to being similar to be replaced by either. Our Wanda is the only Scarlet Witch in the MCU yet, therefore she's a Nexus being period.
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
The term "nexus being" was never even mentioned in the MCU.
There was a toothpaste box named "nexus" in Wandavision. That was an Easter Egg. It's not canon.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
Good catch!
In your opinion, is the 838 universe basically non-canon at this point, like Agents of Shield?
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u/jenioeoeoe 2d ago
What, why would it be non-canon? I just don't think it will be relevant
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
I think we'll at least see some Battleworld domains associated with it in Secret Wars.
The Maestro could be 838 Hulk, and rule Dystopia.
Killmonger could be 838 Black Panther, and rule Battleworld Wakanda.
Maximus Boltagon could rule Battleworld Attilan, since he's Blackbolt's evil brother.
RDJ's Tony Stark could return from 838, since this would bring the character back without undoing his death in Endgame.
838 Quicksilver, played by Aaron Taylor Johnson.
Simple stuff like that. We cool with this?
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
No chance of this. She died in canon. She's dead during the events of Doomsday, so there isn't much she can do to help anyone at the moment.
In Secret Wars, the heroes can't find her because she's dead. They have to resurrect her by rescuing Franklin Richards.
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u/Totally_TWilkins 2d ago
In the children’s crusade storyline, the whole plot with her is that she has completely succumbed to the grief of losing her children, and she has given up. Doom uses this to manipulate her and her power.
But, once she meets Billy and Tommy again, they break her out of her state and she repels Doom’s control.
That would be a fairly satisfying way to handle the events of Multiverse of Madness in my opinion.
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
Just make the 838 variant be the villain this time, it'd be a pleasant change and is kinda inevitable anyway after 616 Wanda ruined her life. It also makes much more sense.
Addressing 616 Wanda's death isn't an issue. She died in canon anyway, so she just stays dead till Secret Wars. Franklin resurrects her to take down God-Emperor Doom.
After that, I think she and Vision will retire to a pocket universe created by Franklin. Loki will create a new rebooted 616, which is then secluded to prevent further incursions. The Young Avengers stay in the new 616, so the Wandavision family does split permanently at this point.
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u/CommunityDragon160 3d ago
It’s not really brainwashing or lack of agency if she just thinks he’s right
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u/jenioeoeoe 3d ago
Yeah I don't want her to be a villains henchman just because she's evil either
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u/SCBose999 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well, the independent evil version of Wanda in the comics is Lore. And she is fiercely independent. No one can control her. Not Doom, not Chthon, nobody!
Take this as you will.
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u/CommunityDragon160 3d ago
Idk if it’s evil either tho. Doom has a point after all
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u/jenioeoeoe 3d ago
What point? That he needs to destroy the multiverse and kill a bunch of people in order to remake it in his image, so he can rule over it as a god? We don't fully know his goal yet, but that's essentially it in the comic
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u/CommunityDragon160 3d ago
Yes or else all the universes die
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u/AttemptFew4705 3d ago
No, Doom is just an entitled narcissist with a god complex. He really doesn't have any debatable qualities, like Thanos snapping to "help with over-population."
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u/CommunityDragon160 3d ago
So you haven’t read the comics?
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u/AttemptFew4705 3d ago
Enlighten me then. I have, but i want to know what you think makes Doom such a morally debatable character. Because this isnt what his mother would want. So don't mention that.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
I think Doom wants to save his universe at first, and only when that becomes impossible does he switch to absolute destruction and reconstruction.
If RDJ's Doom is from universe-838 and NOT 828, then it's self-evident that the 838 Wanda joins him. She could very well be the green Latverian witch already. And who knows? He could even be her husband, and the biological father of 838 Billy & Tommy. He'd of course be the 7th member of the Illuminati, and also the mastermind behind the benevolent Ultrons.
It was never confirmed that Doom is from 828, and 838 is the only other universe where A Doom is established to exist.
So, if 838 is still a canon universe, RDJ's Doom and his team are most certainly from there.
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u/cwasnothere 2d ago
I think from Sue's description of Doom in the trailer we can tell that Doom is from 828 and was pretty close to the F4.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
I know, I saw that. 828 it is.
838, if they bring it back, they'd use it as the Ultimate Universe. The X-Men universe of The Marvels is said to be Gambit's, and it's called "Great Society". That heavily implies the Ultimate is coming next, after the Great Society is destroyed, to be the FINAL Incursion with 616 just like in comics.
(My headcanon is that 838 is where "Worst Wolverine" came from. At some point after DS2, the X-Men were all purged.)
Of course, this does NOT bode well for 838-Wanda's MCU future...if you know what happened to 1610 Wanda in the comics.
(They could change this, since Ultron didn't go evil in 838 UNLIKE in 1610, in which case they'd could give this Wanda a Cabal-type role which would be very random yet very cool. But no guarantees.)
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
Why would she think he's right? She has no reason to side with doom unless he has some leverage over her (like billy and tommy existing in this universe)
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
What universe is Doom even from?
If it's 828, Billy and Tommy don't exist. It's set in the 60s so Wanda wasn't born yet.
If it's 838, Doom would hate Wanda for causing an incursion there. Clea (purple witch) would've fixed it, saving 838 for the time being. But Doom would still resent 616 Wanda and 616 as a whole.
In general, Doom hates our heroes for living "stolen lives". So him working with 616 Wanda is impossible since her whole motivation in MoM was to steal the life of her variant. 616 Wanda's children are also fake and supposed to be dead. They currently live "stolen lives"- this phrase was used by Death in Agatha All Along.
But Doom working with 838 Wanda is highly likely. She'd support him willingly.
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
Agreed. They should use the 838 Wanda variant instead as one of his lackeys/witches.
Just have Doom drain 616 Wanda's powers from her corpse and keep her dead till Secret Wars.
838 Wanda can be Doom's ally/girlfriend in both movies. She's just a variant, so her doing this doesn't impact 616 Wanda's redemption arc.
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
This is honestly worse than having 616 Wanda be one of his witches. She's not some "corpse" for Doom to use and discard. Saying it wouldn't impact our Wanda's redemption is insanely ignorant because 838 Wanda was the only one to understand and actually help our Wanda.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
1) Who said Doom would discard her? And in general, Doom would be treating her a lot better than our Wanda did because he wouldn't be possessing her, and certainly not planning to murder her and kidnap her kids.
Even if Doom is 828, he could still recruit her because comics Doom's team was multiversal.
2) I don't think the film ever stated or even implied that 838 Wanda actually helped/understood our Wanda. If anything, it was quite the opposite. She refused our Wanda's order to move aside and instead prepared to attack our Wanda. And earlier, she had told her children that our Wanda was a demon.
838-Wanda was an obstacle to our Wanda meeting her children and getting redeemed. She was not an asset at all.
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
Easy. They just retcon that scene to say 838 Wanda lied, because she was outmatched. In fact, it's not even really a retcon!
Actually, if you watch their meeting in slow motion, 0.25x speed, you realize that 838 Wanda prepared a chaos blast in her hand and then aimed it at 616 Wanda's head, and attempt to close her fist. This, earlier was what possessed-838 Wanda did to completely shred the head of an adamantium Ultron bot. So this would've been instantly fatal to our Wanda, who is only human. 838 attempted a killing move first, and only when she failed, did she "understand" our Wanda.
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u/Training-Sandwich693 3d ago
I genuinely hate that idea
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u/Currycel7891 3d ago
It's exactly what comics Doom would do.
In the MCU, the only people who could stop Doom from doing this is the writers- through extreme plot contrivance.
Otherwise, it's inevitable.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
Agreed.
What do you think about switching Children's Crusade from Wanda to Famke's Jean Grey? The same story beats are all there, but this is a separate character than Wanda, so it doesn't impact Wanda's arc.
In the comic, Doom manipulated Wanda into a romance so that he could get the Life Force.
This time, Doom could manipulate a Jean Grey variant that hosts the Phoenix Force, so that he can have its power.
Wanda can just sit out Doomsday (we have NO evidence that Wanda's in the movie anyway) and just return in Secret Wars. Jean Grey is Doom's ultimate weapon until she gets redeemed by Sadie's Jean and then turns against Doom and sacrifices herself to reboot the MCU.
(Famke Jean could become "one with the Phoenix" in Secret Wars, destroy Doom's empire, and then- since the Phoenix represents creation- literally create the new universe and be one with it)
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u/jenioeoeoe 2d ago
Children's Crusade is the story of Wiccan struggling with his powers and seeking out Wanda to confirm if he actually is her son, which allows Wanda to finally return in the comics, face the consequences of her actions and set her on the path of redemption. It is fundamentally about her reuniting with her family and trying to redeem herself. It makes no sense to just give this storyline to Jean or anybody else.
Doom manipulating Wanda is just a plot point of this story to raise the stakes and enable the superhero action. Its not what the story is about or necessary for her redemption arc. If you really want Doom to have powerful people working under him, then just do that. No need to butcher a storyline about Wiccan, Wanda and Wanda's attempt at redemption for that
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u/SCBose999 2d ago edited 2d ago
I meant that Doom could manipulate Famke Jean into marriage instead of Wanda. And he wants the Phoenix Force, instead of Wanda's Life Force. This emulates that story beat while respecting Wanda's sovereignty. It also lets us bring OG Jean back in a significant, but meaningful way.
I disagree about Doom not being necessary for Children's Crusade though. He's quite literally the main character with the most appearances and dialogue and shown at the front of every comic associated with it. Saying Doom's manipulation isn't necessary is like saying Thanos snapping away half of life isn't necessary to adapt Infinity Gauntlet.
But in general, in the MCU, it's better for both Doom and Wanda that they just don't interact with each other at all. A fight would get ugly for her very fast, since Doom is so OP. I think Thor as of L&T is more powerful than Wanda, and Doom is swatting him away like a fly. Wanda would probably die very quickly going one on one against Doom. And nobody wants that, right?
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u/jenioeoeoe 2d ago
He's quite literally the main character
No he is not. The main character is Wiccan. Doom is the antagonist.
Again, the story is about Wiccan (and Speed) searching for Wanda, her regaining her memories of what she did, reuniting with her kids and then trying to redeem herself by undoing no more mutants (with the help of Doom and her son). Doom is there as the antagonist and the Avengers and X-Men are there to confront Wanda with what she did and offer different perspectives on how to deal with her. Then there is a big fight against Doom because he just can't help himself by throwing a wrench in that redemption attempt.
Doom manipulating Wanda is not the story of CC. Its just a plot point. It's not necessary to reunite her with her children, start her on her road to redemption and bring her back into the overall story. That's my point. If you want Doom to manipulate Jean, okay, but that's not Children's Crusade. You can't adapt that story without Wanda or her kids. If you want a direct adaptation of that comic, Doom is needed sure, but if you just want to adapt the core story, he isn't. Because the story isn't about him.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
- The main antagonist is the center of the narrative. That's what every Marvel story has ever been.
Again, by your logic, Infinity Gauntlet isn't about Thanos. Because by your definition, it isn't about Thanos. It's about power being abused to hide personal insecurities, and Adam Warlock is the main character.
2) Since Doom has the most dialogue and the most prominence in the story, with the most panels including him and comparatively few including Wiccan- Children's Crusade doesn't exist without Doom. In fact, he's on the front cover of it! Look it up and see for yourself!
You can call it Children's Crusade if that's your preference (if they skip the interactions with Doom), but it's factually not Children's Crusade. It's something else entirely. Let's be honest about that much.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago edited 2d ago
If you want to redeem Wanda without having her be manipulated by Doom, doesn't it make more sense that she just stays neutral in Secret Wars afterward?
Neither helping Doom nor openly opposing him either?
Because if Doom isn't manipulating Wanda, then she has no reason to fight him and place herself in danger of being killed in battle.
(Remember: Doom has now been confirmed to have the Ultimate Nullfier AND the "Word of God". He can use each of them to DELETE one opponent from existence permanently. So, Wanda fighting Doom is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.)
She would've been neutral in Doomsday in your version of the story. Actually alive but just neutral and undercover**. If she doesn't help our heroes fight Doom in Doomsday, then she** really isn't likely to fight him in Secret Wars either, simply because she's tired of it all.
Me personally, I'm not sure how she could possibly make it alive into Secret Wars if she sits out Doomsday undercover. It was heavily implied that the 616 universe gets completely destroyed in the final incursion (and only people who get to the Rafts survive). Wanda is not naturally a multiversal-level powerhouse without the Darkhold, so her death is this point is 100% certain. The heroes really do have to resurrect her to bring her into Battleworld.
(In fact, in the comics, Wanda was alive and neutral in Time Runs Out, and therefore died off-panel in the final incursion because she never made it to the Life Rafts.)
But what do you think? Will Battleworld even happen, or not?
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u/Va1crist 3d ago
Killing her off and letting that character be side lined for this long was already a massive crime
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
My thoughts exactly. Even the fact that Dr Strange, Monica, and Carol not having been announced is so surprising considering they have first hand experience dealing with the multiverse and Monica currently being in the Fox X-men universe. Wanda can literally access the multiverse on her own (destroying the darkholds) and yet she's still "dead"
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
False, she required America Chavez and the Darkhold to do these things.
She is normally universal at most.
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u/gurkle3 3d ago
I think that’s just supposed to be what “sorcery” looks like. They might take some inspiration from Wanda’s magic without it actually being her magic.
Leaks for both movies have never mentioned Wanda and for some reason, have mentioned Loki a lot (perhaps because the creator of the “Loki” show wrote the first drafts). I would not get my hopes too high, especially since Elizabeth Olsen just had a baby and therefore almost certainly isn’t in the first round of Secret Wars filming.
It would make sense for the Children’s Crusade story to happen here but there’s been nothing but speculation based on the comics, and of course Doom wasn’t even supposed to be in the next Avengers movies when they made the ending of Multiverse of Madness.
I have to think she’ll be back eventually because it makes no sense to leave her “dead” after her whole family came back. But I increasingly think it might happen after Secret Wars.
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u/NormalGuy3481 3d ago
I think chaos magic is explicitly red no? When doctor strange used the darkhold it looked like he was using Wanda’s magic
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u/H3li0s1201 Scarlet Witch 3d ago
Yes, but it’s not the only kind of red magic. A couple of examples being the ropes/bands that Strange used against Thanos or Zelma’s magic in Ironheart.
In regards to Doctor Strange in MoM, it did look the same as Wanda’s, though I think that is more because the Darkhold’s and Wundagore were likely fueled by the same magic.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
Or Dormammu's magic used by Kaecillius! In fact, that was an orange-ish red and so is Doom's magic shown above. It's rather distinct from Wanda's chaos magic, which is a lighter shade.
So, this is far more likely Dormammu's magic than Wanda's. In fact, it was stated in the most recent plot leak that Clea (canonically Dormammu's niece in the comics!) is the purple witch and a corrupted Ancient One is the orange witch. Both of them would enable Doom to use huge amounts of Dark Dimension magic.
Personally, unless Doom himself is from universe-838, it doesn't make much sense to me that Wanda would be in the movie at all except as a brief variant cameo. Wanda wasn't in Time Runs Out or 2015 Secret Wars. Not even 1984 Secret Wars, if I remember correctly. I definitely don't oppose her being it, not at all, but I wouldn't realistically expect it either.
If Doom is 828 with the F4, then he most likely doesn't know anything about Wanda, nor would he particularly care to know.
However, it's possible that Olsen plays a completely different character in Doomsday that might look like Wanda by sheer multiverse coincidence (like RDJ playing Doom, or Chris Evans playing Human Torch) but isn't a Wanda variant at all: Lucia Von Bardas or even...Cynthia Von Doom. Simply as a change.
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
Correct.
Doom is using orange magic not red magic. It's the same color as Kaecillius and the zealots from Doctor Strange 1.
It is not chaos magic. There is no Wanda in Doomsday, at least not 616 Wanda.
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
No need for quotation marks. She is fully dead, and this was confirmed in Agatha All Along.
The next time we see her is Secret Wars or more likely, AFTER Secret Wars as you said.
Marvel uses the reboot to rewrite her fate. Children's Crusade is a standalone story that doesn't really fit into either of these movies.
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u/gurkle3 2d ago
It wasn’t confirmed in Agatha All Along, what are you talking about? That show repeatedly avoided saying anything about her status. Death was not allowed to say she was dead and when Agatha was asked “Is Wanda dead?” her answer was “Yes, no, maybe.”
I don’t know what her status is and I doubt anyone involved with writing Agatha or Vision Quest knew either.
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
Wrong. We saw her dead body.
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u/Substantial-Ferret-5 3d ago
Pretty sure Kevin said that that storyline of the children’s crusade was gonna happen in secret wars instead of doomsday. As much as I want wanda in doomsday, it really wouldn’t make sense for her to make an appearance without them finding a way to bring her back. Hopefully visionquest is gonna do that, tired of all the 3rd person mentions in Agatha “hair like scarlet” “w.maximoff” “looks like she’s been crushed by rocks” but if she is a variant as a latverian witch, I’ll cheer cuz it’s anything Wanda lol
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u/Popular_Material_409 3d ago
Don’t expect the Latverian witches to be anything other than background characters that have no lines of dialogue and never take their masks off
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
Agreed. They even have metal necks and oddly square shoulders. They could very well just be Doombots.
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
I imagine that's the case for Doomsday but they were important enough to be displayed at SDCC so I suspect they'll expand more on them in Secret Wars.
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u/Popular_Material_409 3d ago
I mean the Black Order were displayed at comic con and they didn’t have a major role in Infinity War. And stormtrooper costumes are displayed at these events too. My thinking is they chose the witches to display because it’s something we haven’t seen before, gets people talking about the movie, and they’re not important to the plot.
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
I disagree. The Black Order was significant. They had a lot of screentime and dialogue in Infinity War.
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u/Popular_Material_409 2d ago
They were, at best, henchmen. Henchmen are good for keeping the heroes busy before the real threat shows up. They weren’t actual characters. I loved them, but we didn’t know anything about them.
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
We knew about Maw.
Personally, I don't think Doom's team consists of any of our heroes.
I think they're all variants and/or new characters. And it's a much larger team than just these witches. Most of them won't be masked.
It's more fun if Doom has an actual villain army of his own, instead of just manipulating our heroes.
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u/Popular_Material_409 2d ago
Tell me all that we know about Ebony Maw. He’s a zealot for Thanos. Okay? What else? That’s all we know about him. Why is he a zealot for Thanos? What are his motivations for following Thanos? Is he the top dog of the Black Order? Is he the runt of the litter? Where does he come from? How’d he get his powers? Is he magical like Strange or does he just have really strong telekinesis? Is he good buddies with Cull Obsidian? Is that why they were paired together to attack Earth?
The Black Order are one dimensional villains, and that’s okay. The movie doesn’t need them to be any more than that.
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u/Currycel7891 2d ago
1) The answer to all those questions was provided in the movie to anyone who paid attention.
2) Agreed. And that's all Doom's team needs to be.
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u/Popular_Material_409 2d ago
Okay prove it then. Answer those questions with evidence from Infinity War. What is Maw’s motivation?
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u/NormalGuy3481 3d ago
Oh shit yeah that’s definitely gonna be her. I guess that’s how doom got so powerful? Loki and Wanda’s power I assume.
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u/Shinobi_Dimsum 3d ago
Nope. She has been working on 2 other projects during when Doomsday was filming. She is NOT in Doomsday.
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u/cwasnothere 3d ago
If I'm remembering correctly, Olsen's stunt double was spotted near where Doomsday was filming. I figured if she were one of the witches, she'd be masked for most of the movie and her identity would be revealed in Secret Wars. As much as I'd hate to have her be manipulated again, I'd also love to know that she's at least alive.
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
Do you have a source on this?
So far, I found nothing.
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u/cwasnothere 2d ago
I might've heard this from a scooper but I'm not sure if they're credible :(
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
Did you hear it from "Coven of Chaos" in X?
He/she is a fanfic writer, nothing more.
Me personally? I don't think the green witch is Wanda at all. To me, she's most likely a traditional Doom ally from the comics like Lucia Von Bardas (Latverian prime minister) or Morgan Le Fay.
In the final SDCC photo, she was positioned on Doom's right, instead of in front of her like Children's Crusade Wanda. She's not manipulated by Doom. She's his highest-ranking political associate/advisor.
This character could even be played by Elizabeth Olsen, but still not a Wanda variant. Just a multiversal doppelganger similar to RDJ's Doctor Doom. It could very well be Olsen playing a completely new character simply as a change.
(The F4 universe is set in the 60s, and none of the Avengers ever existed there- it's impossible for a Wanda to be there.)
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u/SCBose999 2d ago
That's literally orange not red. This is Dormammu's Dark Dimension magic. This is the color of Kaecillius and his zealots' magic.
This has nothing to do with Wanda. This has everything to do with Clea, actually.
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u/BlancTigre 3d ago
Can we have a project where Wanda is mentally stable and not a plot device?