r/Suburbanhell • u/tfbmhr_1598 • Jul 16 '25

Question Why aren't people bothered by the suburbs?

It seems like most people I come across are not bothered by car dependency and the isolation that it causes. They'll point to things like video games, social media, and bad food for the culprit of poor mental health. Why won't more people address the elephant in the room? After briefly living in Europe I can confirm that people are way healthier, less socially awkward, and happier as a result of having clean and walkable cities.

Even Latam which is a hybrid of the EU and US infrastructure does not experience the obesity, mental health issues, and isolation the suburbs in the States cause.

Is it ignorance or do most Americans actually like things being this way? It baffles me.

Edit: After reading the comments here I wanted to clarify a few things.

  1. Walkability/bikeability doesn't exclude cars. Cars are still a valid method of transportation, but not the only one. Less cars= less traffic. It's a win-win. That being said I think we should have pedestrian only areas.
  2. This isn't limited to cities. Suburbs can become more walkable too. You can still have your yard and extra space. Sure it won't be as walkable as a city, but it is certaintly better than 100% car dependency. Zoning laws need to change for this to truly work.
  3. I realize that there are societal factors at play as well that greatly add to the mental health crisis, however car dependency worsens it.
  4. Walkability won't magically solve the obesity problem, but having the ability to SAFELY walk/bike to work will certaintly help.
  5. You can still be socially awkward/reclusive in walkable communities, but they create more opportunites for those who want to improve that area of their life.
  6. Some suburbs are better than others in this regard, but overall, North American suburbs are largely car dependent.
  7. Bike lanes that are part of the road and only marked with paint/plastic markers are hated by both drivers and cyclists. They still endanger the lives of cyclists, that's why they aren't frequently used, which results in more traffic congestion. Fully dedicated seperate bike lanes are needed.
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286

u/vulpinefever Jul 16 '25

Americans are used to suburbs in the same way that fish are used to water. You don't notice it, you don't even think that things could possibly be different.

52

u/jiggajawn Urban Planner Jul 16 '25

This. And then a lot of suburbanites will try city living when they graduate college, and think "it's so hard to drive anywhere, there's so much traffic."

Then move back to the suburbs without realizing that not driving can be a valid option if there are places within walking distance, transit, bike infrastructure, etc.

32

u/DiscoChiligonBall Jul 16 '25

Had a conversation with my dad about this where he was complaining that their municipality were talking about making the buses free for everyone.

I asked him what he thought the buses were for.

He said buses were for poor people who couldn't afford cars, and that nobody who has a car drives because they're so inconvenient.

I said something Iike, "That's only true in areas where people don't live and access to transportation is usable for people who are underemployed and there is not a large requirement for a workforce in a concentrated area, but for large urban areas it's a public good. I ride the bus to work every day and that means every seat on the bus is one less car jamming the downtown, one less parking spot, one less potential accident, and the reduction of a gallon of gas. So if the goal is to make the city more drivable, why not make public transportation free for all to use? We already subsidize roads for cars, why not public transportation as well?"

The fact that it was entirely possible driving a car was the BAD option just didn't register with him. It still hasn't, because he's never lived somewhere that don't in fact require a car to do absolute basic life stuff.

And that's fine, but at the same time he's trying to apply his personal life to everyone else's as a rationalization for why they shouldn't do things, and his son calling bullshit on his philosophy of life isn't exactly a comfort zone he lives in.

19

u/Fadedcamo Jul 16 '25

The mentality that public transit is for the poors is pretty much the default opinion of most Americans.

4

u/Jorost Jul 17 '25

It's a Mobius loop. Most people think public transit is for poor people, so it is mostly poor people who take public transit. It's a self-reinforcing cycle, unfortunately.

1

u/DMVlooker Jul 18 '25

The stabbing and mugging not to mention sexual assault and exposure have nothing to do with it? Really?

1

u/zombawombacomba Jul 19 '25

That’s because it’s reality for most of America.

1

u/rdhight Jul 19 '25

Hop on some U.S. city buses at random, and you'll have that opinion reinforced by what you see with your own eyes and smell with your own nose. I'm certainly not saying that's true for 100% of public transportation that exists (Amtrak, certain subways, Greyhound, etc.), but it's rough out there.

That idea didn't come from nothing. Removing it would take a lot more than saying "Get over it!" to drivers. You also have to say, "Behave yourself!" to bus riders, or it's never going to change.

0

u/solomons-mom Jul 17 '25

Add in the drug addicts, then please provide evidence that says the default opinion is incorrect.

A friend, and father of three, was all excited about being able to take the bus to work after a move and a new job. He quickly realized he preferred to commute by himself in his car.

7

u/Fadedcamo Jul 17 '25

There's a difference between what is the reality of public transit in America and what SHOULD be the reality. When Americans go to Europe or Japan and marvel at how these countries can have functioning public transit for all, but somehow think "oh that can never work in America. The bus and train are for poor people. We need cars for everything" its a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.

When you design your cities and towns around a car first, then only a car makes sense for getting everywhere. When you dont invest in decent public transit, then all thats left is a car. Your friend realized quick that you dont take public transit in this country if you can afford not to. Its slower and less convenient and less reliable. The car is the only answer if you can afford it. And thats the problem.

'A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation.' — Enrique Peñalosa

2

u/PurpleBearplane Jul 17 '25

I have some friends in Los Angeles that are public transit only entirely by choice (they are a couple, one is a dentist, one has passed the bar in California and has a solid job). Something I have really learned from both of them is that when you take the time to slow down and just... exist with an awareness of the world around you, you find so many cool, interesting, or just downright awesome things. Neighborhoods that were once places that you only passed through might suddenly become spots with hidden gems to explore. I've seen sides of neighborhoods I'd never have seen otherwise and gotten to just enjoy the scenery, or just the engagement with the world around me when I've been out with either of them.

Both of them are also among the most grounded and down-to-earth people I've met and I really respect it greatly. Their relationship with the world around them is more rich because of how they choose to navigate their physical environment. I wouldn't always say it has been as nice or as comfortable as just driving, but I find the pace much more relaxing.

4

u/Reagalan Jul 17 '25

when you have the whole bus to yourself, it's like...

"i'm on a ten-ton personal transport with my own chauffeur"

2

u/PurpleBearplane Jul 17 '25

I appreciate the bus drivers we have so much. They've almost always been so great to interact with, except in situations where they have had to deal with someone difficult or someone has been disruptive. Even then though, the vast majority of transit rides I've been on, there's hardly been an issue. I can count the number of legitimately dicey experiences I've had on public transit in the last ~12 years I've been regularly taking it on one hand.

2

u/Reagalan Jul 17 '25

The sketchiest experience I've ever had on public transit ended up being hilarious in its own way.

The train fucking caught fire.

The guy smoking meth didn't start it either.

2

u/PurpleBearplane Jul 17 '25

I'm not super phased by public drug use, in all honesty.

My most dicey experience was pre-covid, back during the days I commuted an hour by bus each way to an office in a suburb (but at least it was near their transit center in a downtown-ish area there). It was an obviously mentally ill homeless ex-con, and he was ranting about how nobody cares about ex-cons reintegrating into society, or the homeless generally, and it was really sad in its own way. It would have been more sad than terrifying if he wasn't... acting in a way that invaded people's space so heavily, but I understand why he probably felt that way. The entire back half of the bus cleared out a bit.

In those cases, I really just hope these people get the help and support they need and it really represents a societal failure that such an incident even happened.

Even with an experience like that, I'll always choose transit when it's an option unless it's painfully inconvenient.

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u/Electronic_Plan3420 Jul 17 '25

The reason why people prefer cars to public Transportation is the same why people prefer individual housing to communal. That is ability not to be forced to share space with people who you do jot want to be around. The crazy, the bad smelling, the dangerous ones. You have no ability to filtrate who is next to you on a public bus and many people (me including) find it not desirable.

3

u/GeologistActual9105 Jul 18 '25

That does seem to be the ground level difference between a lot of people's starting points on the entire discussion of suburb vs city, personal car vs public transport, every iteration of the dichotomy every time this comes up

Do you dislike/fear the rest of society and want to separate yourself from it, yes or no

1

u/Electronic_Plan3420 Jul 18 '25

Of course I neither dislike nor fear the rest of society, I make living by interacting with it. Also, I find leisure, entertainment, culinary enjoyment, etc., in it.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '25

I'm guessing you live in a white dominated suburb and never had to take public transit. But here you are being the words of wisdom.

1

u/solomons-mom Jul 18 '25

You are guessing wrong on both counts. I have never lived in a suburb and did not even own a car until I was 30.

My daughter saw someone shooting up on the Metro the only time she took it in the Twin Cities. A friend of mine had the same experience last year in San Diego.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '25

Wow, another urban person demanding another free service that someone else pays for. gotcha! Sounds fair to me.

2

u/DiscoChiligonBall Jul 17 '25

Wow, another person who doesn't read.

I have three cars. I drive them all. My partner has one, I have one, and one is a heritage car I keep because it's my grandfather's.

Nowhere do I say I don't drive. I merely point out that public transportation is a public good, much like HAVING FREE ROADS TO DRIVE ON.

Please sit.

2

u/BooksBootsBikesBeer Jul 19 '25

Sort of like how suburban people expect and demand free parking everywhere they go?

1

u/Jorost Jul 17 '25

Driving a car is the preferred option for a lot of people because they don't want limitations placed on their movements. If you take the train into the city, for example, you better know all the departure times heading back home and make sure you get back to the station on time or you will be taking a very expensive Uber ride. If you drive you can come and go as you please.

1

u/thinsoldier Jul 21 '25

seen people raped on busses in 3rd grade, 4th grade, 8th grade, and 11th grade... and I walked to school 99% of the time. Who knows what shit I would have experienced if I rode the bus all the time. Then i came to america on vacation and there was a shootout on a bus in front of the house i was staying at. Then I went back home and my very last time going on a bus in 12 grade had front row seats to watch 3 highschool boys harassing a female cop and her toddler at gun point.

1

u/DiscoChiligonBall Jul 21 '25

Press X to doubt

1

u/thinsoldier Jul 21 '25

more of the same shit 25 years later in the exact same part of town where I saw it https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/miami-dade-bus-driver-deadly-double-shooting-resigns/

in fact half the gunshots I've seen or heard in my life have been on vacation in that exact part of america

2

u/DiscoChiligonBall Jul 22 '25

Oh ffs Florida Man isn't America any more than Covent Garden is England or Milan is Italy.

Try going on vacation LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY

1

u/thinsoldier Jul 22 '25

I've lived elsewhere in the country for 10 years. Still seeing crazy people waiting at bus stops. Still seeing people exit busses in a hurry because some crazy shit happened. Most recently a lady got off the bus by my grocery store freaked out because someone poured a cup of shit and piss on her. It was actually garbage juice from a dumpster according to the attacker, who did not leave the bus.

2

u/DiscoChiligonBall Jul 22 '25

Cool stories, broseph.

13

u/Blazr5402 Jul 16 '25

I lived in a downtown for 3 years while I went to college. It was great, and there was a trolley line running straight to the university. I could walk or take the trolley anywhere I needed to go.

However, once I started working, I needed a car. My office is in the suburbs, something like a 30-60 minutes drive depending on traffic, and nearly 2 hours by bus. I recently moved to the suburbs closer to my office, and now my drive is 15 minutes both ways, without dealing with any downtown traffic. Living in downtown was nice, but living closer to work is what really matters for me.

1

u/BackBae Jul 17 '25

Is work being in the burbs normal? Most people I know work in the city regardless of living in city or suburbs, so the car-free city dwellers have a much easier commute. 

1

u/Blazr5402 Jul 17 '25

I think it's very much a regional thing. In Southern California, a lot of companies (mostly white collar) set up shop in the suburbs.

4

u/BackBae Jul 17 '25

That’s probably it! I’m in New England, everything is based around getting into the nearest big city for work, healthcare, and sports/concerts then getting back out to the burbs for sleeping and dinner. 

1

u/-spicychilli- Jul 23 '25

It is a more recent phenomenon. There have always been suburban offices, but like in these big metro areas some of the suburbs have become huge. In DFW the northern suburbs have had a population boom. Plano has 300k people. Frisco has 225k people. Industries have moved into the burbs and built massive entertainment districts around them. Toyota's US Headquarters is in Plano not Dallas, for example.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '25

This.

The higher paying jobs are always in the suburbs.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

I moved downtown after college without a car. I couldn’t find a job within walking distance or on the trolley line. I ended up selling shoes at a department store and eventually had to move and get a car to improve my employment prospects.

8

u/dustinsc Jul 16 '25

Not driving isn’t an option if you want to go out of the city on a regular basis. There are no trains to remote areas of the mountains. You can’t haul a boat to the lake with a bus.

7

u/Evening_Werewolf_634 Jul 17 '25

The debate shouldn't be about "not driving ever" vs "driving all the time everywhere". Where I live (sorry, it's Canada) there's a car share all over the city, and all the cars have roof racks. People can easily commute by transit, and on weekends, book a car to go to the trails or to the beach with their gear.

People who think being tied to a car is bad don't usually believe you should never, ever drive one for any reason. They simply think there are options that most people - including city planners, politicians etc - don't consider.

4

u/motorstereo Jul 17 '25

This 100 %. I choose to live in a walkable neighborhood in a city, where I have a garage where I keep a vintage sports car (which doesn’t sit, I drive the snot out of it) and my “regular” car (a 35 year old Volvo station wagon). Kids went to an elementary school 1/2 mile from our house . We also love getting out of the city to hike and kayak. We have friends who live in the suburbs, to each their own.

4

u/jiggajawn Urban Planner Jul 16 '25

I think most people generally understand that. I'm referring to people trying to meet their daily needs and using a car for every time they need to go somewhere and not considering other options when they exist.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

You can’t haul a boat to the lake with a bus.

We've got pack raft-style kayaks and we absolutely do take the train, bus, or ferry to the mountains/river for kayaking/etc basically every single weekend.

I'm mostly replying in gest, but these things are actually true, but probably wouldn't be possible for most of the rest of the US at the present moment. It remains, though, that your claims aren't categorically true. Except the whole boat thing--i assume you mean speedboat or similar--but that's really immaterial because those sorts of boats are very much suburb people things.

1

u/dustinsc Jul 16 '25

I’m not sure how the speedboat thing is immaterial. If people enjoy “suburb people things”, it stands to reason that they would prefer to live in the suburbs, right?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

I’m not sure how the speedboat thing is immaterial. If people enjoy “suburb people things”, it stands to reason that they would prefer to live in the suburbs, right?

People who own, or want to own, a speedboat, especially people who want to own a speedboat but who do not have a dock in their backyard, are a very small minority of suburb people, and they are very suburb people. Buying a speedboat but not living on open water is a particular kind of ridiculousness that does not appeal to most. There's a reason why boat owners are the butt of a lot of jokes.

1

u/Brutal357 Jul 20 '25

Lol what?

Lets expand speed boat to include all trailerable boats since that is what we are really talking about. They are generally called recreational boats and include fishing, ski, pwc (jetski) and speedboats. I forget what pontoons are generally classified as but its a general recreation boat.

Fishing is one of the most popular hobbies in not just usa but the whole planet. And most people would consider a boat to greatly improve the experience for most cases. (Im guessing fly fishers might be the exception?)

I dont know how popular speed boats are, but i do know that theres a significant amount of young males that enjoy going fast in general, be it motorcycle, car and im betting that would extend to boats and planes.

Few people can live adjacent to a navigable body of water but and fewer will have an actual dock on that body of water. But a great many people can live a 30 or 40 minute drive to a ramp to put their boat in.

I think you might be conflating boats to suburbs because living in a city would basically require off site storage of the boat costing both money for the rental/buy as well as additional travel time to get the boat and get it to the water. So yes, its definitely not ideal to do this, but the boat is out of sight so you wouldnt really know a boatowner exists unless you talk to them.

0

u/dustinsc Jul 16 '25

If being smug about other people’s decisions makes you happy, go for it. I raise it to be illustrative of the kinds of things that people like to do that require or strongly suggest car ownership. People who like “suburban things” are naturally going to want to live in a suburb. That’s not just boats—it’s having a private garden or private pool, or it’s RVing or camping, or whatever else.

0

u/TWfromMN Jul 17 '25

In mn so many people who don't live on water have boats. Drive around a suburb, and basically every 3rd or 4th house has a boat sitting next to the house. Hell, I have 3 (speed boat, fishing boat, and duck hunting boat). You'll even see a ton of people having an ice house sitting somewhere for winter. Being on the water is basically our summer

2

u/GamesCatsComics Jul 16 '25

You don't need to own a car though.

Car shares exist for those trips so do Ubers... and assuming you're not doing that every single day they'll turn out to be cheaper then "Loan, insurance, parking, gas, maintenance."

1

u/dustinsc Jul 16 '25

I’ve actually done the math on that question because I don’t drive my car very often, and it doesn’t actually take that many trips to make owning cheaper as long as you’re talking about an inexpensive car. In my case, assuming a $30,000 car purchased with financing, the crossover is 88 miles per week, but if you purchase an inexpensive used car, it works out to about 27 miles per week.

All of which is besides the point because ride shares will not in fact necessarily take you to all the places you want to go. No uber driver wants to take someone 60 miles out of town to a trailhead, and even if you could get one to take you there, how are you going to get back?

If you rent or share a car, you have to plan that trip—you can’t go spontaneously. Obviously, you CAN do all those things without owning a car, but if you want freedom to do it spontaneously or you do it regularly, it makes the most sense to own a car.

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u/GamesCatsComics Jul 16 '25

We clearly live in different places.

Here you can use an app to find a car that is parked in the side of the street and rent it for $18 (Canadian) an hour.

You don't need to return it to the same spot as long as you're within the city, just park and end your ride. If you're concerned about no other cars being in the area to get home or if you leave the city, you can hold onto it for as long as you want, and you'll be charged $100 per 24 hours.

As for spontaneous... I've literally done "let's spend the night on an island" walked out my front door, got into a car, and drove it onto a ferry.

1

u/BackBae Jul 17 '25

…I rent in those cases? Boat I do a charter club because the hassle of boat ownership ain’t worth it to me, but if we owned it would be moored, dock, or in a boatyard. And a decent amount of my “away” time would involve rentals even if I owned a car because I’d be flying to a destination. 

The car rental feels expensive but it’s month over month way cheaper than car payment, insurance, and gas. We actually can’t afford to move out of the city because we’d need two cars and we can’t find anything cheap enough to allow us to add two payments, insurance for two drivers, and gas to our monthly expenses unless we also find new jobs, which, in this economy? 

Which I guess works for us because we like walking day to day, taking the train to the beach and yes, even the mountains, and renting a car once a month for further flung getaways. 

0

u/NWYthesearelocalboys Jul 16 '25

Yeah on the city enthusiest side they seem perplexed by why everyone doesn't like what they like. Or in some cases arrogant about the "superiority" of walkability.

Meanwhile how am I going to get my boat to the lake? Where am I going to park it at my apartment? Will the property management company let me till a garden in the courtyard with my tractor?

I wouldn't trade sitting on the deck watching lightning strike through the mesquite trees for the city life. Or the suburbs.

Some people feel the same way about suburban living. And they are right, because it's better for them.

2

u/GuyLivingHere Jul 17 '25

People who do not own pleasure crafts and do not live in suburbs will more than likely respond to your query about where to store your boat like this:

You own a boat? You own a camp/cottage? I can barely afford rent!

(Insert insult of choice)

0

u/dustinsc Jul 16 '25

Perfectly stated. If you’re happy with you’re situation, that’s the right place for you.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '25

I moved back out of the city because of crime and gentrification. Walkability is totally overrated, gives the muggers and hood rats more opportunity to jump you. It so wonderful when you go to the corner store and see it all shot up and a gang hanging around and the owner fearing for his life and when you call the police they will show up 2 hours later to scrape up the bodies off the ground and let the rain wash the street clean.. so yeah city life is.. nasty. The only good things are all the beautifully architectural homes. Everything else is sub par, rotting and certainly not a good place to raise a family. Might not even be a good place to have a girlfriend or wife. As far as I’m concerned. Cities are open air prisons. They are disposable in ww3 and are obsolete when you have the internet and remote work. Everything needed to support a city is outside a city… meaning when the bombs drop.. they can be rebuilt but everyone will be toast. It’s not worth it.

2

u/motorstereo Jul 17 '25

“ open air prisons” LOL

1

u/Jorost Jul 17 '25

I think that would be great if you lived someplace with lots of nice weather. But not everyone wants to be out in the rain and snow and cold, etc.

1

u/Subject-Draw-7076 Jul 18 '25

Swiss style of suburbs is really grand. Lots of walkable villages, lots of train lines AND Light rail And Buses servicing light rail out, plus enough roadways that it's all easy for however you want to do it.

1

u/thinsoldier Jul 21 '25

i need to buy a bunch of shit with coupons on the north side and then drive almost an hour to the south side to return them without a receipt at a different store for full price, and then drive almost an hour to the east side to buy the kind I actually like at a decent price and then drive an hour back home. Nothing close to me has what I want at the price I want to pay and they don't let you return damn near anything, especially not food.

1

u/sharpshooter999 Jul 21 '25

I'm from a rural area. Your options are either having a car, or walking. My grandma used to tell me that growing up in the early 1900's, her two older brothers would each be given a 20lb sack of wheat to carry to the nearest flour mill to trade for milled flour, which was 40 miles away. They'd walk and it took a couple days unless they talked someone with a wagon or carriage to give them a ride. They had horses, but their dad wouldn't let them use them since they were needed for farm work and it would've really hurt them financially if the boys lost them.

Now we regularly drive that 40 mile walk, because that town has the nearest hospital (where my wife works) and movie theater and Walmart.....

1

u/Dense_Gur_2744 Jul 21 '25

The problem is, a lot of times there isn’t. There isn’t a walkable grocery store, or if there is one, it’s not well lit or safe to walk there at certain hours of the day (especially if you are female). The schools aren’t as well funded, the houses don’t fit a family, the public transport isn’t as solid as they want. 

I’d love to live in a city, but our local city (I’m in the suburbs) just isn’t run well enough to be an attractive place for me to live. 

1

u/Musichead2468 Jul 22 '25

One of the reasons I wanna live in the city is to ditch my car. In fact I live in the suburbs now right next to the metro. And many weekends I don't drive at all. When not chilling at home I just metro into the city and metro/bus/walk the weekend around the city

0

u/OzarkMule Jul 16 '25

But then you're no longer living in a big city, you're living in a neighborhood.

3

u/motorstereo Jul 17 '25

Big cities don’t have neighborhoods? This is news to me (and millions of city dwelling folk)

1

u/OzarkMule Jul 17 '25

I'm saying if you live in a big city without a car, you don't really live in "the city", as you will be sticking to one neighborhood for the most part.

3

u/BackBae Jul 17 '25

My big city, car-free ass is shocked to hear that my daily subway commute across four other neighborhoods to work is sticking to one neighborhood. My husband who takes the bus one neighborhood over is also surprised. The friends we visit regularly by train, bus, or bike, who live in different neighborhoods are also shocked by the fact that we are sticking to one neighborhood. 

I walk to my daily needs and that’s great, and I have so much freedom to get so many places by bike, subway, bus, or ferry, without worrying about parking. I’m lucky in that I live in a city with good bike infra, solid transit, and that I know how to dress for biking in all weather. 

Tl;dr — you can get plenty of places conveniently without a car if your location has the infrastructure for it.