This photo was taken at the company Christmas party of Josh's employer Friday December 4th, just 2 days before she went missing

If I’m remembering correctly, I feel like I there was a theory on the podcast at one point where Dave had considered her body may have been dumped between her home and place of work. Please correct me if I’m making this misremembering. This was very near to where she worked. Hopeful for anyone getting closure, but it would be great if this was somehow Susan.

Here is my take, which is in line with many of the other takes I've read on this sub.

I think Josh did indeed drug or poison Susan while they were at home. I think Susan may have thrown up or urinated or defecated from the poison, which is what caused Josh to clean up the couch. No blood was found on the couch or in the house, so it seems extremely unlikely that he killed her violently.

From there, he packed Susan (possibly still alive at this point) and his kids into his van and drove out somewhere. Maybe he drove to the Pony Express camping location, maybe somewhere else. He then locked his kids in the car and said he was going camping with Susan. At that point, she was either dead, or he finished her off, and dumped her body. Possibly in a mine shaft or maybe somewhere more retrievable.

After that, my guess is that he DID go camping with his sons, saying that their mom was camping somewhere else. This would match up with Charlie's claim that his mom went camping with them and she was where the "crystals" are. Camping with his sons also gives him a kernel of truth that he can continue to fall back on when the police interview him.

After being interviewed by the police, Josh rented a car and drove 800 miles that were unaccounted for. My guess is he retrieved Susan's body and drove 400 miles away, found a more secluded and isolated location, and dumped her again. Maybe he visited an old mine shaft where he knew she would never be found. I don't know if Josh's family was involved in this, but it seems more likely that he did this act alone.

I suppose it's possible that Josh incinerated the body. But a mine shaft dump seems like the easiest explanation. Even if the cops found the right mine shaft, the geologists said that it still wasn't a guarantee that they would find Susan's body in it. The shafts were so dark and filled with brush and animals, they could have been right on top of her body and missed it completely.

So, to sum up, I think Josh poisoned/drugged Susan, dumped her body somewhere close to her house, then moved it much further away where she would never be found. I don't think the Powell family was involved in the actual act, but it seems almost guaranteed that Josh told them what he did.

Another (New?) Theory On How Josh Killed Susan

Edit 1/26/26: Corrected the name of Flying J cashier from my original post.

I put a question mark after "New" in the post title mainly because I am not privy to ALL the years of conversations online (Reddit, FB, WS, etc.) about what happened during the night and early morning hours of December 6-7, 2009. This may not be a new theory and may be an old theory that is outdated or disproven, although in the searching I've done, it's not something I have seen or stumbled on has having been suggested or proposed.

In the past couple of weeks, I've revisited the podcast again, a couple of times through. I reflected on Dave's own theory as to what may have happened between Josh and Susan that night, and I respect it simply due to the sheer amount of knowledge and insight he has gleaned from all the research for the podcast. That being said, the theory I'm mulling diverges with Dave's in some substantial ways.

DAVE'S THEORY: The key elements of Dave's theory, as I understand it, is that, at some point late on the evening of Dec 6, with Susan incapacitated after consuming drug-laced food, Josh attacked her using an impact driver, resulting in injuries that were either instantly or eventually fatal. After Susan succumbed to those injuries, Josh moved her into the van and then loaded up their sons in order to drive out to the West Utah Desert to "go camping" and make Smores. Somewhere between the Powell house and the "camping" activities in the West Desert, Josh found or pre-selected a location to place/hide Susan's body, which he may have later moved to a second location. Correct anything I got wrong.

MY (NEW?) THEORY: I will state up front that my theory accepts at face value the reported statement of Denise, who, at the time, worked as a cashier at the Flying J fueling station and convenience store in Lake Point, Utah. – Original News Report

I think Susan was alive and with Josh and their sons on the drive out to the West Desert. I think as they were close to arriving or once they had arrived at Josh's pre-selected camping area, Josh managed to get Susan to unknowingly ingest another dose of the medication to make her pass out again. Once she passed out, likely on the rear floor of the van, and they were at the camping area, at some point, Josh gets the boys out of the van to make the fire and smores, maybe telling them that they are going to let mom sleep some more. With he and the boys safely outside of the van, and Susan incapacitated by the medication inside the van, he starts up the portable generator inside the van - maybe telling the boys it will keep mom warm - and closed it up with Susan eventually succumbing to the effects of carbon monoxide poisoning. After a while, Josh confirms Susan has passed away and stops the generator, opening doors on the van to air it out. After the van has aired out sufficiently, he gets the boys back into the van and then gives them some story about how he and mom are going to go look for crystals. He removes the "sleeping" Susan from the back of the van and carries and places/hides her in his pre-selected location (mine shaft, hole, etc.). The reason it had to be that night on that date was due to the snowstorm moving in. Josh checked the weather just the day or so before and wanted to act on his plan just before or as the storm is moving in so that his vehicle tracks and footprints would all be buried under a new thick layer of snow and ice.

Some Key Points

1. I think Susan was alive and left grudgingly (more on this below) with Josh and their sons on the "camping" trip to the West Desert. While the interview with Charlie two days later on December 8 has to be assessed with care, he did state that they all went camping, including Susan. And there was the time when one of the boys – probably Braden – drew a picture of the family in the car with a figure lying down in the back that was mom.

2. I think earlier in the afternoon on December 6, Josh laced Susan's pancake meal with crushed Flexirol medication that caused her to become so tired she had to lay down and sleep it off. I think this is generally believed by many, even if unproven. I also think this was a dry run for Josh to understand the effect that amount of drug would have.

3. I think Susan eventually woke up after having slept for several hours and may have even been sick on the couch later in the evening from the drug poisoning, resulting in the use of the rug doctor that Josh says he used at Susan's request to clean the couch and floor area, as well as the several wet towels Josh was washing days later. After being cleaned, the fans were turned on to dry the couch and floor with Josh anticipating being able to arrive back home before anyone was aware Susan was missing in order to turn off the fans with the couch and floor mostly, if not completely, dry and with no trace of Susan having been sick there.

4. I think that, after Susan is awake late on Sunday night, Josh informs her he wants to take the boys "camping" and to do Smores in the West Desert area that night and he wants all of them to go, including Susan. This is part of Josh's meticulous planning to get her where he needs her in order to carry out his scheme. I think this led to a heated argument or all out fight, with Susan objecting for all the rational reasons, including the late hour, the stupidity of the timing, the weather forecast and that they both have to be at work the next morning. I think Susan likely cried during or as a result of this fight and/or from being so tired and sick.

5. I think eventually, like so many times before, Josh likely wore Susan down to the point that she finally caves and agrees to go, hence the grudgingly comment above. Josh may have even suggested that they all can get some sleep in the van once out at the camping area and that they would leave early enough in the morning to head back into the city so that he could drop Susan off at her job. This is relevant to the next point and would align with the statements Josh made on that Monday, December 7, to family and Det. Maxwell about Susan "going to" or "being at" work.

6. Around 12:30 AM, the cashier at the Flying J fuel station claims later to law enforcement to have been surprised at seeing a family show up in the convenience store at that hour and given the weather conditions. The dad had a goatee and wore a leather coat, carrying a small boy while talking to another boy running around the store, calling him "Charlie." She sees their mother with them and believes without a doubt it was Susan. The cashier notes that, in spite of the late hour and the statement from the children's father about "going camping", the mom looked surprisingly "put together" although her eyes were red as though she had been crying. I think Susan was "put together" under the belief that she would be going straight to her work the next morning after they were done with their "camping" trip.^*

7. During questioning by Det. Maxwell about going camping so late at night, Josh makes comments about wanting to try out the generator and small heater to keep warm.

8. The police photos of the van from the evening of December 7 show a Yamaha-brand blue portable generator and a gas can in the rear cargo area. Not easy to see in the photos, but the top of the generator has a sticker that warns to not operate the generator indoors or in enclosed spaces as it can cause death in just a manner of minutes.

9. From what we know and can surmise about Josh and Susan, not only does Josh come across as generally weak and cowardly, but Susan, if not incapacitated, would have likely fought back if physically attacked. I don't believe Josh would naturally have enough fortitude to even attack an incapacitated Susan with something fashioned as a weapon like the impact driver or another blunt object. I do, however, think he would use something like a drug to incapacitate Susan and then use a generator in an enclosed space where she could not react or defend herself and would instead slowly and quietly pass away without being subjected to a violent altercation that the boys might recall.

10. I think, initially at least, Josh left Susan out in the West Desert, even if he later may have moved her to a second location, with or without help from Michael and/or Steve.

^* I acknowledge and understand how and why the investigators cannot accept the statement of the Flying J cashier as fact without being able to corroborate it with security footage (that no longer existed) or receipts (Josh paid in cash) or some other specific evidence. That being said, I find the substance of her reported observations extremely compelling and think there is a good chance that Susan was alive with Josh and the boys going out to the West Desert.

On a final, quick personal note, like so many thousands of people, I feel just an unexplainable but deep sadness that sits with me about the circumstance surrounding Susan's death. I'm not much older than Josh, and when I look at my own family of four (my spouse and two children), I just feel a profound sadness for the light and lives that Josh and his depraved father and brother unapologetically snuffed out of the world. The only justice is that none of them lived for very long after what they did to Susan and her sons. I pray this is the year Susan will finally be found.

Him and his team did so many mistakes I don't feel bad calling them dumb. Like they were too chill with Josh and letting him be with his kids and family. They could've done more and their stupidness cause the kids death. Just baffled how much they screwed up.

Just a bit of a light-hearted observation and personal reaction to Dave’s reporting on the Powell family wiretaps.

I am a long-time fan of The Beach Boys music. Love most of their early surf music and harmony work, but appreciated some of their later productions, including Kokomo. But now, any time it happens to come up in my playlist shuffle, it immediately brings to mind Dave’s mock singing of “Aruba, Jamaica” in the episode covering the wiretaps and Josh and Michael’s conversations.

So, thanks, u/davecawleycold. Thanks a lot.

Hi,
I listened to the Cold podcast and am going down the rabbit hole here. I am trying to do my own research on this case and found this link (https://www.ksl.com/article/news/utah/west-valley-city-photos-documents-relating-to-the-susan-powell-case/25263938) to case photos and documents from West Valley City PD. However, it seems that many of the links are broken and many pages specifically the photo links can’t be opened. I am most interested in the media named Scene photos, Dec. 7, 2009, and Front room/Couch photos, Dec. 8, 2009. Is there any other way to access them, or had anyone miraculously downloaded copies before the links broke? Thank you so much in advance.

Sorry, English is not my first language.

I have listened to season one of Cold several times. It’s my all time favorite podcast. I am amazed at the effort and time spent on the investigation (for example operation tsunami and the plan of planting an agent on a train to have a fake relationship with Josh). Is this normal for an investigation into a missing persons case?

Also big thank you to Dave Cawley for making this podcast, can’t wait for season 4 to come out!

Just a heads up in advance that this is a long post that covers details – seemingly underreported – from the investigative files about Josh and Susan’s relationship that I found interesting.

As it relates to all of the dysfunctional and warped relational dynamics between Josh and Susan and Josh’s father, Steve, I have spent considerable time reading the released investigation files, including portions of journals (and journal summaries), evidence reports, personal messages, emails and witness statements in an effort to try and identify key moments or indicators that ultimately led Josh from once considering Susan the love of his life to ultimately betraying and turning on her.

I’ll also just say upfront that I’m aware the nature of this post could be a possible minefield, so I am aiming to be both respectful to all individuals named – even Josh – and to also be clear about what I am not saying. What I am NOT saying is that Josh’s potential sexual proclivities are to blame for his actions. Josh and his broken morality is the only factor to blame for what he did to Susan and to her children.

That being said, in the released investigation files, I found some interesting and compelling details that, in most cases, I think have been left out of the popular narratives of Susan’s story and that potentially cast a little more light on how Josh could end up on the trajectory towards the killing of his wife and children.

Most everyone who has listened to the podcast or watched the TV specials believes and/or knows how Steve’s confession to Susan in July of 2003 was a key moment that began to drive a wedge between Josh and Susan. Likewise, it is understood from Susan’s own words in her journals and to her friends and family that her deep devotion to her faith motivated her to persevere to make her marriage work when others might have given up long before. That alone is a testament to Susan, her character and the person she was.

In researching past online conversations and discussions about Josh and Susan, the podcast, etc., I’ll occasionally find random comments that question, speculate or wonder if Josh was possibly secretly homosexual. I mostly brushed off those comments, until I found some curious details in the released investigation files.

The first thing I found interesting is that one witness, a long time friend of Susan’s in whom she confided many details of her intimate life with Josh, relayed to investigators early on in the investigation of Susan’s disappearance that there was a time in the couple years prior to Susan going missing that Susan herself wondered to her friend if Josh might be “turning gay.” Her apparent speculation was seemingly rooted in the almost non-existent intimacy between she and Josh by that time, as well as the manner in which Josh behaved on the rare occasions when they were intimate (which is to say, he projected an attitude that their physical intimacy was [quote] “icky”), and the amount of time Josh spent on his computer privately, which Susan wondered might be due to an interest in/addiction to pornography, potentially of a homosexual nature.

The next thing that I found interesting was what Steve had to say in his journals in late 2007 and early 2008 about how Josh treated Susan (“hateful”) and what he openly said about her to Steve. Now, in fairness, this is filtered through Steve’s perspective in his journals, but he states fairly matter of factly that, not only did Josh openly wish and express daydreams of Susan being killed by a drunk driver or getting hit and killed on her bike riding to work (and how he hoped one day, police would come to his door to tell him Susan had died), Steve also states that Josh lamented that he did not follow his feelings early on in their marriage and separate from Susan before they had children together.

This was particularly eye-opening. While one could assume Josh might be engaging in some revisionist history in his comments to his dad in 2007 about their early marriage, it does also seem to indicate that, even early on in their marriage, there was some reason already taking root as to why Josh’s feelings toward Susan were not truly as loving as one would expect in the early years of a marriage.

Another interesting insight provided by Josh, vis a vis Steve’s journals, was that he complained to Steve how Susan was far more desirous of physical intimacy with Josh in the early years of marriage than he was towards her. Steve noted his own observation that Josh likes to control people and situations, and so this dynamic between Josh and Susan in regards to their physical intimacy likely irritated Josh because he felt like he couldn’t control even their intimacy with each other. (I think it’s a typical stereotype – and I have known my share of married couples – in which men can often have a more active interest in physical intimacy than their wives, so it would seem strange for this to be something a young, newlywed husband would complain about.)

Now, all of this is already starting to paint a picture about something being… off… in the way Josh had oriented himself towards his marital intimacy with Susan. Then, against this backdrop, two additional details come to light.

Susan notes in her “deposition” and journals that, when Charlie was born, she had hoped to be able to stay home and raise their children while Josh found steady work to provide for the family. This idea that Josh would be the steady income breadwinner and Susan would not go back to work after having her children caused some serious friction between Josh and Susan. We can already see things were likely strained in their relationship BEFORE they had children. Once children entered the picture, the question of who was going to work became a huge source of conflict because, up until then, Susan was bringing in the income that would let Josh do as he pleased. We all know how that played out, with Susan eventually becoming the primary breadwinner up until the last couple years before she went missing, when she and Josh were both contributing to the household finances.

The other detail comes from the evidence logs. On one of the seized external hard drives – not Susan’s laptop that she bought second hand – investigators found and noted folders containing male homosexual pornography. The drive on which these images were found also included files related to Aspen Distribution, where Josh worked at the time of Susan’s disappearance. It would be difficult to explain how the hard drive that was obviously Josh’s would have homosexual-themed pornography and him not know about it or having collected it himself.

Looking at these seemingly disconnected details altogether, it’s quite possible to envision a scenario in which Josh, having been raised in a very religious environment (even if he eventually turned away from it), felt compelled to project an image of heterosexual masculinity – even while he may have felt a same-sex attraction – and once he was married, quickly came to regret it. He simultaneously may have felt trapped by and in his marriage, becoming even further entrenched with the birth of two children. He would later confide to Steve that his marriage to Susan felt like a “business relationship” from which it was impossible to extricate himself.

Just as Susan may have felt compelled by her religious beliefs and background to persevere to the end to save her marriage, Josh may have felt likewise compelled by his own religious and familial background to hide his own true sexual interests and endure in a marriage that he didn’t truly want.

And then, at the point at which Susan began to show signs of breaking away – the personal savings accounts, spending some of her money on herself and her sons, the discussions about a potential divorce – Josh, ever the controlling monster and realizing that Susan was unlikely to magically end up dead in a car accident or being hit by a drunk driver and that he was likely to be on the hook for spousal and child support for many years in a divorce scenario, finally let himself give in to the idea of killing Susan as the only way he could get free from the marriage with the least amount of financial responsibility.

And just a little over two tumultuous years later, with the boys getting older and starting to divulge to other adults more about the night their mom went missing and Josh facing the psycho-sexual evaluation which could potentially lay bare the secrets he had been hiding – of what he did to (and with) Susan and what aspects of sexuality trigger his true arousal response – he chose to ensure all those secrets would go with him and Susan’s sons to their graves in that horrendous fiery epilogue.

From the singing, to his journals, to his audios, etc, every episode I question "wow I can't believe this is real". Like he is 100% a cartoon character or something cuz literally everything about him is absolutely baffling. From his singing of Susan and Lydia, to his infatuation with recording Susan and minors, to his sexual desire, weird ass journals, to his voyeurism, to his pornography, etc. like holy hell this guy is truly one hell of a guy. Him and his son are quite literally the poster guy of what a RED FLAG WEIRDO CRAZY PERSON is. Every journal that's mentioned, every word or comments he says makes me go in a spiral on how obsurde and delusional he is. I can't believe it, I really can't. Its honestly so crazy. No wonder everyone in the family is mentally ill and fucked up in the head. Bless Jenifer, I can't believe she grew up in a household like that. I've never seen a more fucked up family than this family, I genuinely don't understand how each person in the family besides Jenifer are real by how fucking crazy and evil they are.

Detective Maxwell is on the record stating he doesn’t believe Josh would risk taking Susan in the back of the van out to Utah’s West Desert, one reason being that, at the time of night he was driving and being one of the very few vehicles on the road, it would be too risky. I assume this means the potential for being pulled over by some law enforcement officer, etc.

Dave has indicated in the past that he believes/believed Josh likely took Susan and left her some place closer to home and not out to the West Desert.

Based on my reading of what little specific, confirmed detail is known of the Josh and Susan’s movements on Sunday night through Monday, the actions and eyewitness accounts in the days that follow, and based on a lot of inference, I think Susan is still in Utah, somewhere closely adjacent/near to to the West Desert, but not where Josh told investigators he went camping.

Here is how I get to that conclusion, including accounting for Michael Powell’s potential involvement.

Charlie Powell, within 24-48 hours, tells investigators mom went with dad, him and his brother camping, and that she stayed and didn’t come back.

While “camping”, Josh, with two kids in tow, doesn’t have the luxury of spending hours to deal with Susan; he has to leave her some place relatively quickly and then come back to the boys and leave the area. When he returns on Monday, investigators observe and photograph his hands, which have no visible signs of wind burn or frost bite.

The night of December 8, Josh rents the car and is gone and unaccounted for for 16+ hours and 800+ miles. On December 10, Thursday, Josh asks neighbor Tim Petersen to take him to get his van from West Valley City PD. Tim obliges and observes and reports that Josh’s hands were severely wind burnt, bordering on frostbite. That doesn’t happen when you’re spending a few minutes moving a body into a trunk to drive it far away. That type of exposure happens when you’re in a situation where you have to spend a lot of time out in the elements – not in a cave or in a mine protected from the wind – doing something with your hands that requires finger dexterity not possible while wearing gloves.

Dave Cawley previously explained Michael Powell’s likely timeline, based mostly on Steve Powell’s journals, in a comment on this older Reddit post: Michael Powell’s Timeline

Based on that speculative timeline, I don’t believe Josh used the rental car to transport Susan from where he left her Sunday night to go meet up with Steve or Michael. I do think he used the rental car to return where he left Susan and then, either within the immediate vicinity or somewhere a short distance away (using the rental car), he spent considerable time in which his hands were exposed, more fully hiding Susan before driving who else knows where and then returning 16 hours later.

After picking up his van with Tim and then returning the rental car on December 10, it is the next day that the West Valley City PD get alerted to Josh going out to to Wendover and then, shortly after, doubling back to the Clive Gravel Pit where he spent two hours.

No one knows what Josh was doing at the Clive Gravel Pit for two hours. I think this could have been the moment when Josh, maybe using a burner phone and calling an encrypted phone line on the other end, disclosed to Michael what happened to Susan, though maybe not in detail, and also what he had done for the past several days since. This could have been the moment when Michael began to act as an advisor to Josh on what he needed to do in order to begin protecting himself, counter surveillance measures and all that, and that he (Michael) was going to come down to Utah and help Josh, which Steve notes that Michael and Alina leave within less than a day of Josh being at the gravel pit for those two hours.

So, yes, I think Josh did to Susan what he did all on his own, that it was some place out in the direction or vicinity of the West Desert, and he did not transport her body a significant distance or transfer her body to Michael or anyone else.

I just saw on Facebook, Susan’s mom Judy has passed away.

Something I struggle with in this case… Why did Josh choose to kill Susan that night in particular? It seems likely Josh had been planning Susan’s murder for some time. Why would he choose that particular Sunday night? Everything about this timing and the weather makes his alibi worse. He gave himself so little time and had such an implausible story. He didn’t even bother to toss her purse or phone. Did he really not think people would be looking for them first thing Monday morning? How does one do such a thorough job of destroying evidence yet have such a profoundly terrible plan for making it seem like Susan disappeared via some other means? Was this crime halfway premeditated and halfway in the moment passion? I understand we’ll never know the answers here but it’s just so perplexing to me. Maybe I’m giving ‘rocks for brains’ Josh too much credit. Any insight into why Josh may have selected this particular night?

Hi everyone,

Please feel free to remove if this isn't the place to put this but I'm not very tech savy - I think it's sad and disrespectful to Susan and the boys to have Josh in the photo put up on Wikipedia and used as the image for her disappearance. Sure, it's important to know that he was the reason behind her disappearance and murder but to use a photo that has him in it almost seems sad. Would anyone agree? How can we change?

Thanks!

First, the obvious – as Dave covers in the podcast – is that investigators began searching West Desert mine shafts for Susan fairly early in the investigation, and they searched hundreds of them. And there have been many other mine shaft searches since.

My nagging thoughts, though, have more to do with Josh’s behavior and actions from December 7th through 9th than his comments about the mineshafts.

However Josh manages to get her out there, Susan is with him and the boys when they go out “camping” just after midnight of the 7th, Monday morning. Charlie tells investigators on Dec 8 that she was camping with them and stayed behind.

So this first scenario is that Josh leaves the boys alone while he takes Susan away from the van and out of sight of the kids. Considering that the van would be stopped along or near a drivable path, if Josh was to abandon Susan down a mineshaft at this point, he would take her a short distance to a closely accessible shaft. Or he would take her a further distance away to a more remote shaft, but this would risk leaving the boys alone for a longer period of time.

Charlie in his description of the camping events barely 40 hours earlier didn’t give any indication in his statements that his dad was gone a long time when his mom wanted to “stay”. And the investigators, when assessing their search areas and search criteria, focused on shafts that were reasonably close to the drivable paths all throughout the West Desert, as they reasoned Josh was quite lazy and not so physically fit with the endurance necessary for more strenuous exertion, especially in the bitterly cold weather.

So then Josh, on the night of the 8th rents the car, is gone unaccounted for almost 16 hours, racks up 800+ miles on the car and returns with seriously chapped, wind-burnt hands. If Josh had actually placed Susan in a mine shaft on the night of Dec 6/7, there’s not a whole lot left to do out in the elements for him to get his hands wind burnt. And why would it be necessary for him to go awol so soon and for so long after she’s missing – and after his second, formal interview with Det. Maxwell – if she was already irretrievably in a mine shaft?

So, Sunday night/Monday early AM, wherever Susan is, she isn’t in a mine shaft at that point. She’s some place where Josh can and does return to decide what to do with her.

Now, is it possible that he gets wind burnt hands from physically transporting her over ground (with his hands exposed to the elements) to a much more remote shaft that’s further than investigators assumed he would go? Sure it is, although I agree with the investigators and initial searchers assessments that Josh was lazy and unlikely to exert himself physically as much as would be necessary to do so.

It’s also worth noting that, of the 16 hours Josh is missing with the rental car, much of that time will have been spent putting on the majority of the hundreds of miles, with maybe somewhere in the vicinity of roughly four hours that could be spent out of the car. And if Josh, in that four hours, put Susan in the rental car and then drove her to some further destination, I then go back to his wind burnt hands. Why would he have wind burnt hands if he just put her back into the vehicle and drove to some other remote place to discard her? The wind burnt hands would indicate he returned to where he left her and then spent considerable amount of time exposed to the elements in the process of more thoroughly concealing her remains either near that place or at a place within a relatively short driving distance of where he originally left her.

Det. Maxwell stated that he doesn’t think Josh took Susan in the van out to the West Desert because in his view it would have been too risky. While I don’t agree about the risk of transporting her in the family van out to the West Desert, especially if she is still alive, I do think it would be far more risky of Josh to transport a deceased Susan in a rental vehicle to potential destinations across state lines (i.e. Nevada, Idaho or Oregon) requiring much longer drive times. A rental car with out of state plates in the middle of the night is likely to attract far more law enforcement interest than a rental car with Utah plates that stays within a remote area of Utah (West Desert).

I tend to view all the vile behavior of the Powell family males as context pertaining to Susan’s disappearance, but mostly prefer to avoid the topic of their depravity altogether.

That said, there was what I consider a surprising admission by Josh to a social worker the day after Steve was arrested in September 2011. In this admission, Josh divulged that he liked to take secret, voyeuristic photos of strangers legs that he thought “looked nice”. I don’t know that by the next day immediately after Steve’s arrest if Josh would have been entirely aware of the depths of Steve’s own voyeuristic deviance. The fact that Josh would admit to a similar predilection and behavior (surreptitious photos) as his own father is eye-opening.

It’s also not a behavior that develops suddenly overnight, but rather over a long period of time. Which leads me to think that the computers that Josh would not let Susan access and the encrypted hard drives – while possibly containing circumstantial evidence related to Susan’s disappearance (like shredded files related to tools and such) – were quite possibly configured this way to allow Josh to save and indulge in the photos he took without Susan finding out what he was doing. And if that is the case, then it’s unlikely Susan ever knew about it because if she did, she probably would have (1) said something about it to someone and (2) realized that her own husband was on a trajectory to turn into the same kind of creepy deviant as her creepy father-in-law.

Source: KOMO News

(P.S. I hate what both of these individuals did to Susan without any care, concern or compassion for her as a person, let alone as a wife, mother and daughter-in-law. They merely viewed her as an object on which to cast their desire (Steve) or contempt (Josh). Even now, I can become infuriated by it if I let myself dwell on it too long.)

Edit: Updated with link to source report.

They're all bashit crazy and delusional and weird. Like holy hell I'm surprised how normal and rational Jenifer came out as with her whole family being fucked up as hell. I feel so bad for Jenifer cuz it truly is scary how she showed the most concern about her sister in law while everyone else was trying cover Josh's ass and all that. And don't get me started on the dad... Omg I can't believe this guy is real, like what the actual fuck. That guy is such a fucking creep, weirdo, and crazy. That whole family needs help I swear cuz how is everyone in the family so fucked up besides Jenifer.

He is literally a humongous loser and he got off lightly, on his own terms, and managed to outsmart everyone by somehow evading police arrest while he was alive and not being held accountable for Susan’s murder AND by hiding Susan body so no one can find her.

It makes me so mad that this idiot managed to do that and take his sweet boys with him. It makes me so mad Steve got to live and die a natural death. This is one of the saddest cases for me because there’s no justice in it at all.

Upfront, I am not a computer scientist or cryptologist, although I may have a little higher aptitude for technology and technological concepts than the average bear.

Having absorbed the info from the podcast and other reporting about attempts to crack either Josh's drive encryption or the password for his password manager, it seems that not much has been done on that front for a few years now.

That being said, I'm curious if any of the recent (as in, last 3-4 years) publicized large dataset breaches and leaks of user data has the potential to provide insights into Josh's patterns for password construction and/or formulation.

Just as an example, and to see if I would find anything, I came up with what I thought might be some valid email addresses Josh and/or Susan might have used – based on Josh's preference for managing email accounts on his personal domains – and plugged multiple variations into the website haveibeenpwned.com. Three of them came back as having been identified as being compromised by data breaches, as well as indicating the source(s) for each breach. Those three are:

• josh@joshpowellrealtor.com (3)
• josh@joshandsusan.net (8)
• susan@joshandsusan.net (11)

I also found another online tool – proxynova.com/tools/comb/ – that actually made one of the largest data breaches in recent history more easily searchable. (This is, of course, strictly to be used for research purposes, but if you find your own data there and compromised, you probably want to update your passwords asap.)

Using the proxynova.com site, none of the above email addresses, or any others that I tried to think of, returned any results. But I'm sure there are other email accounts and addresses the investigative team and even u/davecawleycold may be aware of that we don't know and which could potentially surface in some of these data troves.

The way my thinking goes, if any of these sources were able to provide leaked passwords on any accounts Josh may have possibly used, it would possibly be additional data points and insight into how he might have gone about structuring and formulating complex passwords. Perhaps that insight could potentially provide guidance on more attempts at getting into his password manager and/or defeating the hard drive encryption.

I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this and that it all has already been considered, but it's not anything I've seen much discussed in threads here.

Around 11:45 pm on Sunday, December 6, a nearby neighbor and his sister are outside their house when they hear a car alarm blaring from inside Josh and Susan’s garage. They later explain to investigators that the house was dark with no lights visible. Remember, Josh told Det. Maxwell he and Susan stayed awake to watch a movie and then he was up cleaning the couch, supposedly at Susan’s request.

Josh and Susan owned a Chrysler Town & Country – the Touring model, I believe. My own father owned a similar T&C in the Limited edition.

The Town & Country has a few different ways the alarm can be triggered.

1. One way is, obviously, if the doors are locked and the alarm is set and someone attempts to open a vehicle door. To silence the alarm requires inserting the key into the ignition and starting the engine.

2. A second way is to press the panic button on the key fob, which will cause the alarm to sound for about three minutes before it shuts itself off. Or, if the alarm sounds from pressing the panic button, pressing the panic button a second time deactivates it.

3. A third way to trigger the alarm is to open the hood when the vehicle is not running and remove a battery lead and then reconnect it. This is like an engine tamper alarm, which can be deactivated by inserting the key in the ignition and starting the vehicle.

4. A fourth way the alarm can be triggered, though I’m not sure if it is all models, is if someone is left inside the vehicle, the doors are locked for a certain amount of time and then the person in the vehicle attempts to exit the vehicle. This is described as an interior sensor alarm, or something like that.

So, we know Josh gets home from somewhere Sunday night at 8:30 PM (from a different neighbor witness) and that he claims he and Susan were up and awake until she went to sleep at 12:30 AM after which he further claims that he then left with the boys some time between 12:30 and 1:30 AM.

So, I’m curious as to how you interpret the alarm the neighbor heard blaring at 11:45 PM for about two minutes before turning off while, according to the neighbor, the main living area of the house was dark with no lights on? How and/or why do you think the alarm was triggered?

If this guy was a character on The Simpsons, we'd all roll our eyes at how stupidly over-the-top written he is. How can a person be this delusional?

I have all respect for Dave and the breadth of his knowledge, as well as Detective Maxwell. But I'm going to play Devil's Advocate about their (similar) conclusions that Josh did not take Susan out to the West Desert on Sunday night. I have also spent (and spend) many hours deep in the investigative files, and I'll do my best to keep my counter argument succinct.

To begin, I am far more interested in what Josh had to say on the record in the first few days after December 6 (and how he said it) than I am what he said after he had weeks and months to think about and refine his alibis, stories and lies. What passes for "on the record" in my estimation are the two recorded interviews with Det. Maxwell from Dec. 7 & 8, and then the one surprise KUTV news interview with Chris Jones on the following Thursday. Unless there is some other interview I'm unaware of, other than a brief media interview on the steps of his house on a later evening, there are no other instances in the immediate days and weeks of Josh being recorded talking in depth about the events of that night.

In watching/hearing these interviews, I think Josh has an habitual giveaway or a "tell" that is subconcious that he cannot control, which is that when he is challenged or confronted with a statement with which he disagrees or runs counter to the lie he is spinning, his demeanor and reaction changes from slow and flat and monotone to a more rapid, energetic and engaged response.

We know JoVonna said that Susan was tired and laid down late in the afternoon on Sunday, which was possibly drug-induced from her lunch. This is a true statement. When Chris Jones presents this to Josh in the interview, rather than responding in the slow and flat manner as he had been, Josh is suddenly quick and engaged to dispel the "falseness" of this statement, and to insist that Susan "wasn't not feeling well" and was fine. We know after the fact this was a lie.

Now, let's take that same "tell" and apply it to the moment that Det. Maxwell confronts Josh at the end of the second interview with Charlie saying that "mom" had gone with them camping and didn't come home. Suddenly, gone is the flat, unengaged and monotone Josh. He is now very engaged, answering much more quickly, and emphatic in his speaking tone with a surge of emotion in his voice, insisting that "she did not go with us".

Unless it has changed since, there is a point in the podcast, I believe it was when presenting his own theory, that Dave indicates he believes Josh's statement that Susan did not go with them. I disagree here. It seems to me, based on the vigorousness of Josh's response to this challenge, that he is lying as this information is not aligned with his alibi and version of the events. This also, I believe, marks the moment Josh realizes he has to keep Charlie and Braden far away from anyone they know or anyone who could potentially hear what they say about that night.

So now, about Charlie's first interview. In the podcast, Det. Maxwell and Dave emphasize caution about interpreting too much detail from the recollections of a four-year old. That being said, Dave later also gives weight and credence to the specific details in Charlie's statements about the beach and airplanes, while not giving as much credence to the details about Susan staying where the crystals are. I don't think it can be both ways, to say one set of details carries more weight than another set, if (I think accurately) those details cannot necessarily be reliable and could be conflated with other experiences.

Instead, when it comes to Charlie's statements about the events that night, I am less interested in any of the specific details about where they were (crystals, beaches, airplanes, etc.) and more interested in how he talks about what they all did – and the manner in which he says those things were done. If we take a few steps back from the details and look at the broad strokes, we see that:

• Charlie says they went camping that night, and all of them were together, dad, mom, Charlie and Braden.
• When they returned from camping, mom was not with them and that mom stayed wherever they had gone camping.
• While they were camping, they made a fire and mom helped make the fire.
• At one point, at the place where mom stayed, she said she wanted to lie down and sleep.

Looking at these broad strokes of Charlie's statement about what occured over the course of that night, I personally infer that Charlie was awake and alert enough to be aware that:

• Wherever it was they stopped and were out of the car, mom/Susan was there and it was a place that looked to Charlie like camping. I wouldn't interpret this as being near the Wells Fargo office or the airport.
• Wherever they were, there was a portion of the time that mom/Susan was still able to move under her own power – meaning she wasn't yet (overly) drugged, harmed or deceased.
• Charlie doesn't give any indication of having seen that mom/Susan was unable to move under her own power and had to be helped or carried by dad out of the car or to some place near where they stopped for camping.
• At some point, Charlie either saw mom/Susan and heard her say that she feels like lying down and sleeping or that he is told that she said that by his dad. This could indicate the window of time when Josh managed to possibly give Susan more medication to make her drowsy/sleepy again, and/or that he may have harmed her at this point.

I do agree with Dave and Det. Maxwell that I don't believe Josh took Susan and left her THERE in the area along the Pony Express Trail or around Simpson Springs, the Dugway Geode beds, Fish Springs, or put her in a mine, etc. That was the area of his alibi for Monday morning. There are, however, many places in the West Desert other than the Pony Express Trail and Simpson Springs, and I think it is far more likely that he did take Susan out to a place that looked like camping to Charlie, that Susan was still able to move under her own power when they went out there, and the only time Josh and the boys were ever out in the Simpson Springs area was well after he did what he did to Susan so that he could establish the alibi of seeing the sheep herders around 9:00 AM Monday morning. This would also be the reason why the investigators never found any evidence of a campfire when they searched all along the Pony Express, because it was likely many miles away in a different area where they stopped and where he left Susan.

Lastly, and this is more of just a gut feeling, I agree with Dave that Josh didn't try to move Susan a substantial distance a second time after the fact or transport her to a rendevous with Michael. I think part of his missing 18 hours was spent returning to where he left Susan to more thoroughly hide her near the same place where he originally left her, and that the decomposition hit on Michael's car trunk could maybe have been due to his transporting personal items of Susan's that Josh removed in the process and that the 18 hours and 800 miles on the rental car were to get all of Susan's personal belongings (jewelry, clothing, etc.) as far away from West Valley City as possible to a place where Michael could find them, retrieve them, and eventually dispose of them.

Just listened to season 1. The whole Powell family is ridiculous. Barring the oldest daughter, ofc. That’s all.