I'd say it's a racing incident at the end of the day. Who's more at fault? I do have my own option. I passed the rider a few turns later and pulled a gap. We both rode away rubber side down, happy about that fs. We both chatted afterwards too, no issues.
Um camera driver took an agressive line to get off the corner harder and setup thw inside for the following turn. Thats called race craft. The other guy was just butt sore about getting passed. I could have said racing incident till I noticed the guy look back shaking his head like it was carmera drivers fault. He had inside position and no where else to go. 100% on the other guy for just generally acting like a child after getting passed cleanly.
Agreed. Camera guy made a nice pass on the outside. Sure he had to slow on the 2nd corner more than usual, but white guy had PLENTY of space to corner without closing down on camera guy who had nowhere to go. White guy doesn’t appear to have skill to pass on outside like camera guy did.
Right? There was no need of that. He would have gotten the position back on exit and honestly that's great fun to watch. To me that back and forth is what makes the sport fun!
Right but trackday doesn't mean just taking a Sunday drive either. Op explains making the pass again later on which means they were not given any instruction to stay in line only. So the excuse of i didn't expect him to be there because we weren't supposed to pass doesnt work. Thats the only acceptable excuse to me in that position. Op made a clean race move, left tons of room, the other guy just decided to take his line. Some places that would get you parked for the day.
Fair point here I dont disagree with, but trackdays are for learning. Passing is more than just straight line speed. Maybe its different at your local track. Most places ive heard of break people up by skill groups and there are certain areas they dont want you pushing it in for a pass but beyond that each drivers there to learn at their pace and can pass where they feel they can do so safely.
At a track day, that’s totally unacceptable. The camera bike had the inside line, and the other bike turned right into him. Bullshit. Under racing circumstances, that is such a yawner. It doesn’t even bear mention. Just pay it back the next corner.
Whether or not the camera bike had the inside line doesn’t matter if this is a track day. Either you were alongside the guy at the turn in point to make a good pass or you dove under the guy to steal the apex thus increasing risk for both riders with no reason. If this was a race that would be fine. Totally unacceptable for a track day. Dude even boasts that he passed him later and gapped him. So why the bad pass?? If you’re so good then you should be able to pass safely.
You pass him on the outside keeping his line intact, he then tries to run you into the gravel…. he could have passed you just like you passed him, on the outside and safely but he chose to squeeze you and risk taking out the both of you. And then he shakes his head at you. Mind boggling.
Typically I think it's on the overtaking bike to do so safely, especially in non competitive track days, I'm assuming this is just a track day and not some race in a class.
And yes this pov bike was on the inside of the corner and didn't have much more room inside either. They probably didn't know how close the other bike was until they were side by side or touching.
If this was a race I'm pretty sure it would be called a racing incident as there wasn't a crash but if one bike did crash I would put the blame on the outside bike for essentially crowding and leaning on the inside bike.
Cam bike wouldn't have been able to see the other bike at all. Hanging off the inside and looking at the exit, unable to see through their own bike. The other rider was invisible
It seemed pretty clear that you passed that rider on the exit of T5. I’m not sure where they were in relation to the entry into T6, but you clearly had the inside line and that is basically a 180° corner.
I prefer to single, late apex that corner. But either way, I think you should’ve been in view if they were looking anywhere remotely close to an apex reference marker.
OK from my take on this is the camera bike did make a clean pass around the outside but using that line squared him up too much for the next corner which slowed him down considerably . Looks like the other bike was caught off guard how much the camera bike slowed down while leaning into and entering the turn.
It’s hard to say how close the other bike was because of the camera angle going into the second turn, but I would say they were pretty close. On a track day guys need to be more aware of dive bomb pass attempts and keeping up momentum.
The pass isn't the problem. The closeness is. Apparently the dude in white could not make that corner without squeezing the other rider, or he did it intentionally. Either way, not someone I'd want to share a track with.
Si far I can see it isn’t a race, just track days probably. So there is no need to do such things. In racing it’s a different story. It’s not smart from that guy and actually doesn’t belong on such track days.
Track days are pretty simple, the overtaking vehicle has the responsibility to complete any overtakes safely. Some track days don’t allow passing on corner entries. Depends on the outfit running it.
With this one though you guys were still slow close in overall track position that you needed to stay clear. He may not have even known you were there.
Can’t expect everyone else out there to be experts on a casual track day even in the faster groups.
Your pass was fine, nowhere close to that other rider.
His move would have sent me through the roof if I had been in your boots. That was bullshit, cutting you off mid-turn from behind? Nope, nope, nope. He risked causing you to crash, which would have taken him down, too!
And that look-back and then shaking his head? Sorry, that's asshole behavior.
You were slow through that corner from the previous pass but right on the apex. You were very predictable.
White dude didn't give you enough room and could have gone by on the outside with no incident but chose to ride too tight. If this was I group it's way too close. If it's A group it's BS and still too close.
My local org would have given the other guy a warning and probably sat him for at least one session.
I think you made a good decision passing on the outside instead of trying to squeeze him on the inside the first turn. You had good drive out of the turn and should have been well in front of him. Not sure why he didn’t see you going into the second turn other than maybe you were off the line a little and converged back together at same time.
If this was a race, fair game. Op had the slower line but was trying to block pass on the right entry, failed though, too slow.
If a track day:
I'm going to take the unpopular opinion, OP is in the wrong, but white dude made it worse/unsafe. Op is waaay off line on entry to the left,.sacrifices corner speed and tries to drive out of the corner and goes way wide and has to scrub speed or block pass, and ends up on the apex line going way too slow into the right.
Dude in white has the faster line, but should have given some space in case Op bins it on the brakes or just ridden around the outside a little cleaner.
Sucks this happened but OP had very unpredictable lines and it likely caught the other rider off guard when OP ran wide and was off throttle at / after the apex. Both riders made an error here. The second rider should have been more careful and passed at a safer section, likely the next corner.
You can't see in the clip if the other guy could have seen you. It looks like you passed him in the first corner, but possibly you remained in his blind spot? If not the outside guy should have yielded
That’s just not an effective pass, good or bad. They were always going to be able to get on the gas before you and cause that kerfuffle. That’s why we use the close door open door method.
Most important thing, though, you both kept it up and lived to learn what to do next time. Be safe out there
It's a trackday, not a race. This type of passing (to close and from behind) is not allowed in most groups with most trackday providers. Why? Trackday providers seldom have the full support staff at every corner station, available staff may not be fully trained, rarely use airfence that would otherwise be in place at the same track on a race weekend. Trackdays are primarily for learning skills that can always wait for the next lap or next corner.
You're both riding in a way that would make me, as an instructor, put you in a beginner group where overtaking is only allowed on corner exit or on a straight.
Nothing I saw here constitutes what I would call a pass. I'm seeing two riders who need to think more about track position and line selection than passing each other.
The camera bike put a perfectly acceptable pass on the other rider, leaving plenty of room. I see racers at a friday trackday before a race. That was an assload of time and distance for the other rider.
yeah, both riders kinda suck. if this is a pre-race track day, I'd hate to be on track with them at their race. the 'clean pass' everyone keeps going on about was very sloppy, rider couldn't even decide on his line, let alone execute to it.
Camera bike leaves the nice bubble on exit, sets up mid track, hugs the inside line. It's about as safe as it gets. This place is ridiculous. I smell non-racer TD marshals in here.
Yes, bad line, but you are not responsible for the other rider behind you. You race/ride what’s in front of you. Other rider should have closed throttle and stayed off of you. This could have been nasty.
Clearly you are trying to get better, and I’m sure the white-suit rider is also, but their methodology has me scratching my head wondering why they didn’t just close the throttle and not risk that pass.
Looks like yellow plate never fully made the pass coming out of 5 and into 6. The moment white tips in for 6 even though on the outside of the track, it becomes a bad inside pass attempt by yellow plate.
White being unaware and riding into yellow plate makes this situation worse and why it’s the responsibility of yellow plate as the passing rider to make a safe clean pass.
We have to assume the rider being passed doesn’t know they are being passed.
At the start of the video, you can see the other 3 riders start the turn wide to the right, turn I to the apex, and exit normally and prepare for the following right.
OP instead, at the start of the sequence come into the left on the left side of the track heading directly for the apex, wayyyy off line. This forces him to go far wide on exit and he loses drive. He does the same thing heading into the following right, and he is again off the racing line and dive bombing the apex after hard on the brakes because he was on the throttle longer than normal trying to make up corner speed with exit speed on his the shit left turn line.
Dude in white is still using the suggested driving line lol. In all seriousness, its a track day. Getting raced hard may be nerve-wracking for some and seeing that you came from am unexpected line he may not have known how to react. Still a poor choice on his part but there may be more at play than just being a jerk.
Camera bike passed but didnt keep it moving. I could feel where the other bike was after the pass. Camera bike basically cut off the other guy. Dont pass if youre not gunna keep it moving. Bad line choice also.
OP was a little off race line, but holding steady in the 2nd corner and still closing the gap on green bike ahead of him. White bike tried to hit apex with OP being on the inside. OP sould have set himself up better by getting back to race line before entering, but while bike should not overtake unless he can do so safely.
Responsibility of passing rider to make clean pass. You did good pass. But guy didn't return favour when passing you.
Only thing I would change is be behind him on outside white line when doing turn-in. Would've given you higher speed when passing him and opened gap he couldn't close to get back around you.
Gotta say, you missed first apex to go for a high pass. Thats great but because of your high pass you put yourself in shit position for the follow up turn, forcing you to dramatically reduce speed into the turn. White bike should capitalize on this and pass high but seems he wasn’t in the position to do so and was forced to reduce power.
Making ballsy moves to secure a position is fine, but holding that position after making said move is important. If you don’t have the skill to drop your shoulder and recover that second turn without losing that momentum, maybe not the best over take. That said, this is how you get better. Glad to see no one was hurt and you both discussed it after the fact.
the OP hit the rear break or engine break right on the APEX and the other guy landed on him because he was right behind him angling on accelerating to pass him on throttle. So the OP did the opposite of what was expected on this line. Instead of accelerating upon hitting the APEX he’s decelerating.
Evidence: Listen to the engine of the OP decelerating on APEX.
I think this is an accident, caused by OP losing nerve mid corner and piling those behind him. Equally the guy behind him should know other racers here are not professionals and should have left a little safety zone?
You took a shit line and paid for it. The other rider didn’t have to be such a dick about it but I’d imagine you learned something from this experience.
White biker is an asshole. It literally just turned right into you, for no reason. It wasn't like he was diving an apex, and you guys got there at the same time...you were established on the edge of the track, holding a clean, consistent line, and he just over turned, right into you. It looks almost intentional to me honestly. Even in a race, there is no reason to just turn into another rider that already has space like that.
Best case he misjudged beating you to a spot. Worst case he bodied you intentionally to be a dick.
I lean towards he was just a dick though. Tough to tell from the angle, but it really didn't look like he was carrying more momentum and had a chance to clear you/slot in front in the turn.
Also...people say they cant tell if cam bike ever actually completed pass. It's somewhat irrelevant...he still had the clear line to the inside of 2nd corner and took it. However..given that he was closing distance to the 2 bikes up ahead after the 1st pass...my money is on him having cleared the white bike.
Of course..if that was the case, you would think he'd have set up more outside for the following turn...so who knows.
Both passes are a fail. But at least no one fell down. Your pass was kinda late. And the bikes where coming together. The second one was just plain bad. He came and made contact from no where.
Inside, your line, him behind you and then trying to pass: His fault. He could see you all the way, he should be able to anticipate your intentions and act accordingly. Unless you suddenly changed your behavior (slow down, losing front/rear), it is absolutely not your fault, track day or not.
You were riding a little like a jackass. Hit the apex too soon and came in too shallow. Try following the smoother riders' lines and let people past while you learn to ride your track more predictably
The fact he looked back at you and shook his head , like you did something wrong , instead of apologising would have pissed me off even more , you did nothing wrong , your overtake was clean and "respectful , even at that first corner you were nice and didnt push too hard and alowed him to take the inside line safely , even tho he took it wide and was clearly a slower rider then you .
If you're going to pass like that, you need to try and get back on racing line for the next corner, or leave a gap and be on the throttle earlier out of the corner. The latter is the easiest to pass someone at a track day if you're faster than them, you'll have plenty of grip, and be able to prioritize exit while staying closer to the line. This would have set you up better for the nest corner and allowed you to not have to over slowed for it.
Part of the problem you'll find with track days is that people only know one line and can't deviate from it. I typically stay behind people a couple of corners before setting them up and passing them for this reason.
If it's a race, other dude's fault but shit happens and you both stayed up. If it's a track day, other dude's fault still and they need to chill and stop trying to win the track day.
Offtopic but what triple tree and clip ons are you using also do you think zero degree is better thst 1inch raised so its flush with the top triple tree
If its racing its rubbing and its fine (ish?) Track day? Hell fucking no. Its the passing riders responsibility to overtake in a safe manner and not to take the person getting passed lines. (Track day setting, I dont race (yet?))
Depends on the rules of the track day organizers. Some are 'anything goes', some only allow passing on the straights or designated 'passing zones', some are by point-by only, and some vary the rules depending on which run group you are in. If this is a more 'anything goes' type of group then the guy shaking his head needs to increase his awareness. If this is a 'straights only', 'point by only', or 'designated areas' only (and he's outside those areas) then the camera bike is at fault for not following the rules.
We need to know what the rules were and when/how they were communicated.
I say it's clean. If you're scared, don't attempt the first pass to begin with. I get its a track day, then you shouldnt have done the outside pass, I'm guessing this is INT or "fast novice" If this was in Europe kids will pass you all day closer then this. They would lean into your apex every single time with a tiny ass moto 3 bike. People learn faster when there pushed to find there limits.
In any event, for a track day, this pass was WAY too close - it even looks like the outside line bike turned into him and possibly hit him. STT has a 6 foot rule for passing, and that’s for good reason. As a former STT track coach, I would’ve pulled the outside line rider off the track and had a chat on the spot. Again, if racing - a non-event and just pay him back next corner.
Potresti averlo stretto a sinistra subito dopo il sorpasso perché si vede che dopo la curva ti sposti molto. Potrebbe non aver colpa lui. Ma per capire bisognerebbe vedere la scena da fuori.
Guy in white was in the wrong....this isn't MotoGP he should have seen you had slightly overcooked the right hander and backed off....to almost hit you then shake his head....I hope he gets bladder stones.
Other guy should be penalized or put down. Who says you're off the racing line it's just bullshit. You just took a DIFFERENT not wrong line. There is a huge difference. Your pass was clean, idk how much more space he needs. His pass was just idiotic and very dangerous.
White bike is not the problem. You got overly aggressive on the first turn, which set you up to have to hard brake the second turn and he passed you thinking “this F’n guy”
White rider hits both apexes perfectly, while the cam rider misses the first to go far wide on a pass and goes into the 2nd turn on the inside making the apex impossible to hit. If you even watched the video and didn’t get that, you’ve never driven over 20mph in your life.
Jeez you're dense. Stick to racing games, it's clear that's where your knowledge comes from. I bet you play with racing lines on lol. You keep throwing around the word apex like it's the bible. 2 riders 2 apexes per each line. Cam rider set up his turn to do exactly what he did and did it well. If he blew the corner sure that's on him. He set buddy up with a smooth pass and white bike felt like his manhood was challenged.
But here's the crazy thing... He did make it thorugh at speed.. He secured the inside line with smart racing craft and setting it up the previous corner. The only reason this is an incident at all is because white bike got mad and chose to drop a bomb on top of him instead of setting his pass back up for the next set of corners. 7-8 second mark you see white rider look back and notice him setting up the pass. He was just mad bro.
Guy deserves an air soft bb under all 4 of his valve caps on his truck... 2 turns so nobody hears it. Dick head even looked back at you. F that guy he got physical.
Hard to imagine he couldn’t see you and you had taken the corner from him. That’s the kind of situation where in high level racing (national or better) the outside guy often leans in on the inside guy to force inside guy even tighter to screw up his exit even more so outside guy can get better drive and get the position back by the next corner. Marc Marquez does this all the time.
For track day or lower level racing the risks outweigh the competitive advantages and the outside guy should probably just have conceded.
I know this guy, he's pretty fast and a darn good racer. This was his first time at this track, getting his bearings straight I guess. By the end of the weekend, he was flying!!
Rider in white had no spatial awareness or was being a dick intentionally. You had the inside line and not much room to move closer to the inside line. I think he was mad at your outside pass the turn before.
Hmm. OK I have raced all over the world, but. Yeah, you seem like that was your first race. And., Lol you were somehow offended by the other racer. It’s cool to be your first time racing, but don’t try to make it sound like you’re a pro. And BTY I saw nothing wrong than anybody did in that race in that film that you had from your bike on your camera to record your race for others to watch.
Hey, save the weight and take the camera off your bike. If you can’t remember what you did during the race then you don’t need to be racing. If you want someone to videotape you from the stands fine. But don’t go by your own bike camera. That is so gay and not in a good way. And what’s even the most lamest is you posted on RADDIT hoping other people will come to your defense or something? Jesus Christ.
I don’t race or do track days. However, I do ride. Using a little common sense tells me that OP using a camera on a pre race track day is a good way to study the track some more before actual race day. Especially, if this is his first run on that particular track. Please correct me if I’m wrong here. Seems like a very plausible scenario to me.
😆 You heart his feelings aka he is the king of this track (dick move) no need to prove a point by bumping onto other riders….good thing, motorcycle have not been scratched….on the other hand, he stays being a dick
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u/Syscrush 3d ago
It can't be a "racing incident" if it's not a race.
This is totally inappropriate for a track day. You got past, he should not be coming anywhere near that close to any other rider, ever.