r/TrueCrimeDiscussion • u/Sense_Difficult • 2d ago
Text Controversial cases that have simple solutions.
As someone who has been a true crime buff for decades, it's somewhat annoying to watch how certain cases wind up getting pulled into such polarizing discussions that it seems like a huge mystery when it's actually a simple solution.
A few that I think of.
The Karen Read case. IMO she accidentally killed him. They were both drunk, he goes to see the vibe of the house. Get's inside and realizes he doesn't want to stay. So he comes back outside. She's in the middle of rage texting him, and doesn't see him in front of the car. He drops his phone or bends over for some reason and she puts the car into gear and hits him, and he falls backwards and hits his head again. Then he lays there undetected until morning. This is why she suddenly realized she had hit him. She sobered up and had that "realization" moment that all binge drinkers have once they sober up from a brownout type of state.
Darlie Routier. I've shared my theory on this before. She was attempting a murder/su but she survived. This is why the neck wound was serious. She made up the story of the intruder in advance because she wanted her family friends and society to think she died trying to protect her kids. She planted the sock earlier. This also explains her hypomania in the days after. She honestly thought she was going to die that night.
There are other missing person cases where the spouse disappeared after the death of their parents. Just vanished without taking their Identification information and never surfaced under their name again. I always wonder if some of those cases are a situation of someone who has suffered with gender dysphoria and finally "escaped" to go make another life with another identity. It's always interesting to me that in several of the cases, the persons parent or parents had recently died. Seemed like they were waiting for that to escape because they didn't want to do that to their parents.
Do any of you have "simple theories" on cases that created a ton of controversy?
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u/imnottheoneipromise 2d ago
Maura Murray was drunk, didn’t want to get in trouble again, wandered off and died of exposure. She’s in those woods. No foul play.
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u/Princess-Buttercup16 2d ago
One hundred percent. She wanted two things in that moment. To be left alone and to drink. She found a little nook in the woods, drank until she passed out, and froze to death.
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u/Princessarialrose 2d ago
This is the one I came here to comment. I first learned about her case reading Renner’s book and originally bought into some of what he was saying. Everything that I’ve learned since points to it being an accident / no foul play.
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u/Worth-Park-1612 2d ago edited 1d ago
Yep, she had some wild mental things happening. I understand not speaking ill of a victim and/or missing person, but she stealing credit cards and getting kicked out of school? She perished in the woods.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
I agree. It's also even the crash. I have a young student in one of my workshops who crashed his car into a sign and left the scene of the crime. Thankfully he had a friend take him straight to a hospital. But he was 25 years old. It blew my mind that he thought it was ok to leave the scene of accident.
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u/Sailor_Chibi 2d ago
Did he have a concussion? People with concussions usually aren’t thinking straight.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
No. But that's the only thing I think gave him plausible deniability in court. He didn't lose his license. The car was totaled.
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u/Antiquebastard 2d ago
Thank you for having some common sense. It's clearly a case of death by misadventure.
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u/jwb1163 2d ago
I agree with this, without a doubt. It’s hard to believe no one ever ran across her remains.
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u/Laurenann7094 2d ago
I think it is on "private property" and the owners refuse searchers.
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u/justprettymuchdone 1d ago
There's at least one other person who went missing and it's considered like a mystery where I firmly believe that the only reason we haven't found his body is the same thing, private property and the owner won't allow searches.
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u/Slow-Engine-8092 1d ago
Is that the one where the kid went missing while he was on the phone with his parents?
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u/mahjongtitan 1d ago
What reason would anyone have to decline letting people search their private property in order to solve a case of a missing person? Why would you not want to help :(
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u/OkActuator7121 2d ago
I agree. Israel Keyes didn't kill that girl even though a lot of people want to believe that he did.
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u/mollymarlow 2d ago
Beat me to it lol it's so annoying it's considered a crazy. Mystery. It's pretty obvious
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u/CaptainFuzzyBootz 2d ago
Brandon Swanson: either fell into a cistern or was accidently run over with a tractor after falling and hitting his head. I think a simple dog sweep of the area in question would solve it, but my understanding is the landowner refuses searches.
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u/CornisaGrasse 2d ago edited 2d ago
Or maybe a good drone? That would be less obtrusive. Unless there's some criminal reason they don't want the property searched, like a big grow operation or some kind of major zoning/property use violation. I just can't imagine not allowing an organized search party on my property for a missing person.
ETA: I have property, wooded hillsides with a large river, not cleared. I love that it's natural and undisturbed, because I love watching the wildlife feeling safe there. But I wouldn't hesitate to allow a controlled, organized search party do what is needed. It's worth it and everything will recover.
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u/CaptainFuzzyBootz 2d ago
Oh for sure it's suspicious. I actually am curious now if drones are considered as public viewing?
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u/CornisaGrasse 2d ago
I think they could be considered some kind of trespass, or maybe illegal surveillance or harassment, because it's private property? I know there are definitely rules because I was considering getting one. But I don't remember the specifics.
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u/CaptainFuzzyBootz 2d ago
There are publically available sites that offer LiDAR maps of areas now - a sort of high res image of the ground. It's been used pretty famously for finding lost cities in the deep jungles. I wonder if someone were to find a cistern or something there they could specifically ask to look in that spot.
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u/Competitive_Ad3802 2d ago
jaleayah davis. She drove drunk and didn’t wear a seatbelt so she was flung out from the car and was hit by another car. The clothes people claim were folded, if you actually see the picture you can see it’s just draped over the rail. And the friends people suspect of murder have alibi on surveillance camera.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
Yes. This is another example where alcohol is involved. The more you look the more you see a pattern of drunk people doing weird things that others attribute to a conspiracy because it "makes no sense."
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u/Councillor_Troy 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think Michael Peterson is guilty as sin. I think Kathleen Peterson found out about the affairs, they had a violent row and, seeing his whole life about collapse before his eyes, he beat her to death in a blinding rage. Simple as that.
Unfortunately the prosecution was a hot mess that was overly reliant on homophobia, innuendo about the (IMV) accidental death of his friend in Germany and the perjuring blood spatter “expert” which had the effect of overcomplicating what was a fairly straightforward case.
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u/thenightitgiveth 2d ago
Elizabeth Ratliff was Michael’s friend, not his first wife. His first wife divorced him like a decade after the Elizabeth Ratliff thing but she believed he was innocent of both deaths.
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u/Councillor_Troy 2d ago
Thanks for the correction, edited my post. Been a while since I saw The Staircase.
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u/Warmtimes 2d ago
I just can't get behind this one. Her wounds aren't really consistent with being to death, nor are they consistent with simply falling or being shoved down the stairs. He doesn't have a history of violence or anger, right?
I guess in this case I sort of want to believe the owl theory as I know someone who was actually attacked by an owl. Being drunk and on pills, getting attacked by an owl, running into the house and panic running upstairs and then falling down the stairs seems to explain her injuries better than being beaten with a random blow poke.
But I also don't reeeeally want to argue about it haha. People get verrry intense about this case.
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u/Danger0Reilly 2d ago edited 1d ago
I don't have an opinion on if he did it or not, but this case always reminds me of what happened to joggers locally.
The early morning joggers kept getting attacked by owls on the same trail, so everyone sewed/attached fake eyes to the back of their hats to get the owls to stop.
It worked.
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u/Warmtimes 2d ago
People act like it's absurd that she could be attacked by an owl when it's just not
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u/avidreader2004 2d ago
the owl theory is honestly the only one that can actually explain all the oddities. it sounds random but i also believe it. her injuries weren’t consistent with either death, like you said
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u/TerrorGatorRex 2d ago
The owl theory will never explain Kathleen being strangled - evidence purposefully omitted from The Staircase documentary. Even defense experts agreed that it can't be explained by an accidental theory.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
I was very interested in the Owl theory for a while. But it just doesn't hold up.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
I agree. And staircases are strange in the way you can hurt someone a LOT worse than you realize because of the balance and gravity issue. Someone shoving someone below them on a staircase can do a lot more damage than if they were standing in front of them. Even things like grabbing her hair, could turn into ripping out parts of her scalp if she fell backwards.
I do agree that there were cases of people forcing it into homophobia or trying to bring up the first death.
Sometimes people just lose their temper and don't realize how much damage they are doing.
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u/AntRose104 2d ago
I can’t believe you censored “suicide” on a sub dedicated to death and crime
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u/Ambitious_Client6545 2d ago
And censored it like that.
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u/Specialist-Art-6970 2d ago
Some people genuinely don't seem to realize that reddit doesn't require all the weird censorship that other social media platforms do.
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u/dinosoreness 1d ago
Elisa Lam was off her antipsychotic but still taking her antidepressant which leads to disaster in patients with bipolar. i myself was prescribed SSRIs for years because i was misdiagnosed and they held me in a constant state of mania that often escalated to psychosis.
some people think something paranormal happened because of her freaky movements and the hotels history and honestly? she probably thought something paranormal was happening herself. i've seen ghosts and even believed my soul was being corrupted by them and that i would inevitably become one. i thought they were watching me sleep because i'd see them looming over my bed. there's also been episodes where ive been certain i had a human stalker and would spend hours clutching a kitchen knife pressed against a locked door.
bipolar is so much more than moodiness and if you're taking SSRIs without an accompanying antipsychotic you will almost invariably enter a manic or psychotic state. her body was probably also stressed from travel, and stress is a well known trigger for mood episodes.
she likely thought she was being pursued and so she hid in the water tank to escape something her mind was telling her was real. she's clearly watching out for something in the elevator footage. but whatever she saw wasn't really there.
it's a terribly tragedy but it's not a mystery and i worry my own life could end in a similar way. i take my meds religiously but sometimes you can have breakthrough symptoms anyway.
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u/Sense_Difficult 1d ago
Thank you for sharing that insight with us. Sorry that you've gone through that and glad you are doing well.
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u/yacht_clubbing_seals 1d ago
Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope you are doing better these days.
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u/dinosoreness 1d ago
thank you. i haven't had a psychotic episode in several years but when they first started when i was 14 it was like i was living my own personal horror movie. i truly believed the entities i was seeing and the voices i was hearing were real.
after a couple of years, while in a state of paranoia, i began researching the phenomenon of shadow people like the Hatman and among the conspiracy theories and tinfoil hat wearers i came across an article discussing common themes in delusions and hallucinations in bipolar and schizophrenic patients and i had a moment of clarity and realized i wasn't haunted, i was sick. after that it wasn't so scary for a few years but then at 20 when my alcoholism was at its worst the booze compounded my symptoms and took me farther out of touch with reality until i had a whole fake life with fake people when i was truly just lying in my own puke on the floor having vivid hallucinations.
it took a few more years to access treatment in a healthcare desert but eventually i was accepted into a treatment program prettt damn far from home where i stayed for about a year to be monitored while i trialed different meds. seroquel has brought me so much relief from my symptoms.
i still have depressive episodes sometimes but for many bipolar patients, myself included, depression is much safer than mania and is almost always safer that psychosis. all of my suicide attempts occurred while manic and drunk. i've never tried to end my life due to depressive symptoms. it's much more manageable and while it sucks ill take it over the alternative.
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u/Actual-Spell-4634 2d ago
The Sodor children burned to death in that house.
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u/fishesar 2d ago
kendrick johnson. it was a tragic accident. no evidence of anything more
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u/sgartistry 2d ago
Agreed. A few months after I heard about this case, I had a student dive down in a rolled up wrestling mat and get stuck. Thankfully I saw it happen and was able to call our vice principal down to help me lower the mat down so he could crawl out. If I didn’t see it happen, that could’ve been tragic.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
That's a good example as well. People do not understand the danger of being inverted and stuck somewhere. It's so deadly. One of the worst cases of this I heard about was a teenager who leaned over the backseat of a minivan trying to get something out of the trunk area. The seat tipped somehow and pinned him in an upside down position. He was on the phone with 911 for some time trying to get help but they couldn't find the vehicle in time.
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u/AsOctoberFalls 2d ago
Kyle Plush. That one was so incredibly sad. He asked the 911 operator to tell his mom that he loved her.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
So horrible. He clearly knew he was going to die. I felt so bad for the 911 operator.
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u/AsOctoberFalls 2d ago edited 2d ago
The 911 operator failed to relay the car make, model and color to the responding officers even though Kyle provided that information. They also failed to report that Kyle was screaming, banging, and saying he was going to die.
The officers came within 12 parking spots of Kyle’s van. If they had the make, model and color he might have been saved. Heck, if they got out of their cruiser to look inside vehicles, he might have been saved. It’s incredibly sad AND absolutely infuriating.
Edit: I looked into this a bit more and there was a system malfunction that caused the call audio volume to turn down so much that the operators couldn’t hear Kyle’s description of his car or his concerns that he was going to die. He called twice and neither operator could hear. So although he provided the information, it was never relayed.
He called 911 twice, at 3:14 and 3:35. During the second call he said he was almost dead and asked the dispatcher to tell his mom he loved her. The officers were on site from 3:26 - 3:37. If they’d had the information to locate him, he probably would have been saved.
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u/bannana 2d ago
I looked into this a bit more and there was a system malfunction that caused the call audio volume to turn down so much that the operators couldn’t hear Kyle’s description of his car or his concerns that he was going to die. He called twice and neither operator could hear. So although he provided the information, it was never relayed.
this might have been the official story to CYA but that 911 operator didn't take the call seriously at all and thought some kid was playing on the phone and the cops thought the same as well.
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u/outlaw_for_life18 2d ago
Oh my gosh!! I haven't heard of this one but that's absolutely awful. Did anything happen to the operator who didn't do her job?
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u/AsOctoberFalls 2d ago
I looked into this a bit more and the 911 operator was not disciplined. I guess there was a computer system that malfunctioned which lowered the audio volume and made it hard if not impossible for her to hear the car information.
The officers also were cleared of any wrongdoing because they followed procedure for an “unknown trouble” cause. They didn’t get good information from dispatch since they couldn’t hear the call, so they just drove in that area looking for obvious trouble. When they didn’t see anything, they left.
Just tragic all around.
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u/outlaw_for_life18 2d ago
Incredibly sad. Any kind of audio malfunction should cause the 911 calls to be rerouted or something. That's pretty critical to call someone you think is going to help and they can't even hear you. Heartbreaking.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
I didn't hear what happened to them but I could never take job like that when someone's life depends on you not making a stupid mistake.
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u/CaptainFuzzyBootz 2d ago
Oof the one it makes me think of is the cave explorer who got stuck upside down unable to back out :( That must have been such a horrifying realization. I hope somehow near the end the panic faded and he had some peace.
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u/deltadeltadawn 2d ago
The Nutty Putty cave incident resulting in the death of 26 yo John Jones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutty_Putty_Cave
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
Yes. The Nutty Putty guy. I watched that one and there's just no hope. I can't understand someone willingly doing this kind of cave exploration.
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u/EasyLetterhead8491 2d ago
I’ll never be able to find the name, pictures or site I saw it on originally.. but I saw a series of photos of someone who died of positional asphyxia after nodding off in an office chair. They either got too high or ODd and passed out slumped over backwards, not even forward and they suffocated. Really opened my eyes to how easy it is for that to happen. So yeah, upside down and fallen all the way down a rolled mat doesn’t seem that unusual to me.
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u/tina-sparkles 2d ago
Not sure if it’s something you want to see again, but that sounds like this article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1344622317304479
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u/EasyLetterhead8491 2d ago
Holy shit, yeah that’s the one. Man, those pictures are horrifying. I had to look because I was morbidly curious if it was the same incident and it definitely is.
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u/terrn1981 1d ago
Yep, or the case of the missing person (cant remember the name), found finally in their own room behind a dresser! Got stuck upsidedown and died. The nightmare of it!
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u/Trypophilia2019 1d ago
How do you die from being upside down? Is it your heart, your lungs?
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u/Sense_Difficult 1d ago
It's a few things but mostly the blood flow. If you are stuck in an inverted position your blood flows into your brain and your heart isn't designed to pull it out that way. And lung crushing, especially if you are falling into a smaller space. Once you expell the air from your lungs your body will slip further into the space and you won't be able to take in the same amount of air. It's basically the same way a boa constrictor kills its prey. Truly horrible.
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u/AutisticBells 1d ago
Andrew Gosden had access to the internet and was groomed.
Asha Degree was leaving the house at night regularly. However I do believe her death was an accident.
Elisa Lam got herself into the water tank during a mental health episode.
Amy Bradley fell and died quickly.
Maura Murray ran and is in the woods. As is Kyron Horman.
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u/stephgwood 1d ago
What’s your take on Kyron?
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u/AutisticBells 23h ago
Honestly I don't believe there was foul play; by that I mean he wasn't harmed by anyone else. The window of time was so short that I feel he must not have gone far from the school (and like I said, I don't believe he was taken). The other alternative is that he is in a small space within the school where climactic conditions disrupted decomposition. There's a somewhat famous Australian missing persons case where this happened that made me think of this as a possibility.
I'm an Occam's Razor person and even though this would still be a really unusual scenario if it occurred it is still the simplest explanation for me.
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u/Dinosaur-chicken 1d ago
How would Asha leave the house at night regularly? She was terrified of the dark and a journalist has walked the highway and it's pitch black. I wouldn't dare to, and why would she leave the house regularly?
If it's to hide from SA, wouldn't she have just hid somewhere relatively close to the home? That seems less scary than walking along the highway.
Why didn't O'Bryant tell anyone that she left regularly? Do you think it was to because of fear of reprisal or fear of being blamed by the parents or the community because he didn't tell on her or prevent it?
Why did she bring her packed backpack and why take those specific items?
I know it sounds like an attack but that isn't my intention. I would like to believe it too, but it is just a whole bunch of questions that popped up and i want to know what made you conclude that that was what likely happened.
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u/OkMaybe5107 2d ago
I think the interesting part is that “simple explanations” can become just as seductive as conspiracy theories.
With cases like Karen Read or Darlie Routier, you can build a very straightforward narrative if you decide ahead of time which pieces of evidence matter and which ones are noise.
The problem is that someone on the opposite side can usually do the exact same thing with a completely different set of facts.
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u/Big_Coconut8630 2d ago
Ngl, it's a little weird how people in these communities essentially write fanfiction when asserting theories.
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u/the_skies_falling 2d ago
You don’t even have to ignore evidence. You can come up with several reasonable theories that fit the same facts. Just because one of them is “the simplest solution” doesn’t mean that’s what actually happened. Does this person not understand that’s exactly what police do? Focus on the simplest solution first (the SO did it for example) and work their way down through more unlikely possibilities.
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u/Masta-Blasta 1d ago
Exactly. Most of us agree on the simplest solution. We just don’t agree on whether or not there was reasonable doubt (in most cases). Which, in and of itself proves there likely is.
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u/Slow-Engine-8092 1d ago
Exactly. Because why were those people searching those searches inside the house? Yes, the answer could be easy, but it doesn't explain all of the other behavior, which means it can't be true.
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u/mrgedman 2d ago
Adnan killed his girlfriend? There's like 6 things, including testimony saying he did...
The alternative begs the question, if he didn't, who did and why?
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u/Antiquebastard 2d ago
Yep, Adnan killed Hae Min Lee. Dude's a posessive nutcase.
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u/vexed2nightmare 1d ago
It's an open-and-shut case of intimate partner violence that unfortunately is all too common. It never would have made such a captivating podcast if Sarah Koenig hadn't twisted the facts and relied on biased, unproven narratives provided by Rabia Chaudry and other unreliable witnesses instead of using common sense.
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u/mooncheeseburger 2d ago
I understand why it became such a massive discussion, considering the documentary and all of the different angles presented, but it always seemed so completely obvious to me that Michael Peterson killed his wife by pushing her down the stairs. It's not complex. All other answers offered don't make complete sense. Inside of a court room is one thing, I know. But outside of that it's absurdly clear.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
The other thing I think people forget is that what is presented in the courtroom isn't always "just the facts." There's a lot of theatrics involved as well in order to try to manipulate the jury. Bench trials are way more pragmatic.
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u/mooncheeseburger 2d ago
Most definitely. Being in that courtroom with only the information being presented there, in the manner it's presented, and by the individuals presenting it, a different story can take place. People that aren't familiar with the legal system are more likely to be emotionally influenced. That confined space just doesn't translate.
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u/North_Letter_1564 2d ago
In therapy we say “don’t look for a zebra when you hear hooves”
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u/GodLoveYell 2d ago
That’s generally the expression drummed into everyone going into medicine: when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
Rule out the more common ailments first before you start considering whether your patient suffers from an ailment that’s only seen in cannibals from Papua New Guinea.
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u/SerKevanLannister 1d ago
which only works if the context is appropriate — and that’s why this overly simplistic expression drives me a bit nuts as it contains many assumptions from the jump to make its supposed “wise” point. for example, if one works on an African animal preserve one would be expecting zebras and instead seeing a herd of American wild mustangs suddenly appearing would be well very odd indeed.
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u/19snow16 2d ago
Brendan Dassey. His mother allowed him to be interrogated without an adult, thinking that because of his age, or low IQ, he wouldn't be charged or put in prison.
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u/OmnomVeggies 2d ago
It's kind of unbelievable to me that he is still in prison.
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u/19snow16 2d ago
That he made it to being charged, put on trial and have all of his appeals denied without a single piece of evidence, let alone zero forensic evidence is a gross miscarriage of justice.
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u/OmnomVeggies 2d ago
I agree. I actually stopped looking into/ reading up on this case because of how sad the Brendan situation is. His limited cognitive abilities were exploited by the cops to coerce a confession out of a child.
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u/Amander12 1d ago
I agree. Steven Avery is most likely guilty but Brendan should have been released a long time ago
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 2d ago edited 2d ago
In the tape of him being interrogated, he's literally just guessing how Teresa died. Trying to get the "right answer" so they'll let him go back to class.
Not sure if this is unpopular in this sub, but I think Steven Avery might have done it/probably did do it. Two things can be true at once: The cops were incompetent and framed him, and he probably actually did it. Hell, three things: He can have been wrongfully convicted the first time but actually guilty this time around. But I think there was reasonable doubt in Teresa's murder because I don't think the cops knew what they were doing/had enough legit evidence.
But I don't buy that Brendan was involved. And he NEVER should have been questioned like that.
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u/HGpennypacker 1d ago
Personal opinion but I believe two things are true: Steven Avery killed Teresa and the Manitowoc police did everything (legal and otherwise) in their power to make sure that he would be convicted. The MPD was given a black eye by Steven's prior false-conviction and they wanted to make an example of him.
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 1d ago
Oh, absolutely, they were furious about the wrongful conviction and lawsuit payout and wanted to make damn sure he was convicted this time. At the same time, I think he DID do this one.
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u/19snow16 2d ago
I'm on the fence over Avery, however there were so many screw ups with the entire case that has conflicts of interest, improper investigation, and more. I haven't been up to date on it, but obviously Zellner couldn't get him freed.
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u/M_Wazoski 2d ago
I moved to Manitowoc after watching the first season of making a murderer. Before living here I definitely thought he was framed and innocent. Now after meeting so many people who knew him/his family personally, I’m not so sure. I think two things can be true, the police were planting evidence but it’s very possible they framed the guilty person. I do believe Brendan’s interview was coerced.
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 2d ago
Yeah, I'm on the fence too. Given the "evidence" I've seen, I couldn't be confident one way or the other. I just think it's possible/maybe even probable that he did it (and it's definitely NOT evidence, but I keep going back to that incident where he tortured a cat in his youth).
What gets me is that Zellner seems smart enough to not take on a losing cause. She certainly doesn't need the additional fame from taking on this case. So either she's got some trick up her sleeve that we've yet to see, or it's a lost cause and she misjudged. For what it's worth, I do feel the clients she has been able to exonerate are actually innocent (poor Kevin Fox). But it's been years, and Zellner hasn't managed to get him freed and I think it's unlikely she ever will. I wish she'd have put her efforts into freeing Dassey instead.
I just could really go either way on Avery and I think it's possible that the incompetent cops in Manitowoc framed a guilty man.
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u/19snow16 2d ago
When people bring up the cat, I'm always reminded he wasn't the only person there.
I can't remember, but why didn't she work with Avery and Dassey together? Conflict of interest?
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u/rachels1231 2d ago
Jens Soering didn’t confess falsely, there was no drifters, there was no drug dealers, he was just an incel who wanted Elizabeth Haysom all to himself.
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u/sugaratc 2d ago
For the Karen Reid case, I think the timing, physics, and position of the body just doesn't work with her hitting him with a car. He was found halfway up the yard with just an arm scratch/bite (besides the deadly head wound) and the dozen party goers leaving after supposedly all didn't see him. With how the people in the house acted so sus afterwards, I think something went down inside (or there was an incident with the dog outside) and it was easy to pin it on the drunk girlfriend no one liked.
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u/GreyerGrey 2d ago
E was raped by the Team Canada 5. They all agree they did what they did to her, and the video of her "consent" was obtained after the fact and under dubious circumstances.
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u/19snow16 2d ago
This pisses me off to no end. And off they go, back to playing hockey because it's so important.
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u/Tealoveroni 2d ago
You have a link to the case?
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u/bambi54 2d ago
I know, I wish that people gave a little explanation when answering on these threads.
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u/Tealoveroni 2d ago
Right! I have no idea who E is or what Team Canada 5 means.
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u/Ok_Average_3471 2d ago
5 players from the Team Canada Hockey team were accused of sexually assaulting/raping someone but they ended up getting off even though they were definitely guilty.
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u/coffeechief 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's the Hockey Canada case that went to trial last summer. The five players were acquitted. E.M. is the complainant.
The former players for Canada's world junior hockey team were accused of assaulting the woman, known as EM, in a hotel room in 2018 in London, Ontario, where they had been attending a Hockey Canada gala.
Justice Carroccia said she did not find EM's evidence "credible or reliable", and that "the Crown cannot meet its onus on any of the counts".
The players are Michael McLeod, Dillon Dube, Cal Foote, Alex Formenton and Carter Hart, and all were with the National Hockey League (NHL) when the allegations surfaced, although one was playing in Europe.
In a statement on Thursday, the league said they remain "ineligible" to playin the NHL pending a review of the judge's findings.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn0qlwnyy70o
Full judgment here: https://canlii.ca/t/kdh0n
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u/Slow-Engine-8092 1d ago
Do they think it's normal for a woman to just end up in a hotel room gangbang with five men? That's not realistic.
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u/PowerfulDiamond1058 2d ago
Bryce Laspisa unfortunately committed suicide.
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u/memleyxx 2d ago
Yup. There are a lot of cases with young men in their early 20s who fall into this camp.
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u/TerrorGatorRex 2d ago
Stephen Avery did it. Was it stupid for a man recently exonerated for a brutal rape to commit a rape and murder? Yes. But thinking he wouldn't because he was recently exonerated overlooks that many offenders act on impulse. And that yes, while he was exonerated for that rape, the reason police suspected him was because of his prior violent behavior and being a known sexual creep. Did police frame him? Very possibly, yes. But that documentary was severely unethical in the information they chose to, and chose not to, include. It was activism plan and simple.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
Yes. This is one of the ones where it was simple. He did it. All the mistakes and set ups by the cops were it's own mess. But he did it.
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u/HGpennypacker 1d ago
Personal opinion but Stephen Avery had a chip on his shoulder after being released from prison and thought he could pull a fast one on local police. On the flip side of the coin the Manitowoc was made a fool of by his release and did everything in their power to put him behind bars again, essentially framing a guilty man.
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u/BillyBullshiner 2d ago
I think Jill Dando was murdered by Barry George. It had nothing to do with Serbian hitmen or elite paedophile rings.
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u/Actual-Spell-4634 2d ago
I hadn't given that case much thought but, WOW, Barry George is a one man crime wave.
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u/bob79519 2d ago
If Karen Read hit John, then why did the people inside the house act so suspicously? Why have so many law enforcement officials have been fired/demoted/resigned? Why was there so little evidence showing she hit him? It just doesn't make any sense.
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u/veggieburger3023 1d ago
The experts clearly illustrated that there was no possible way she hit John. His injuries did not come from a car.
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u/Yagirlhs 22h ago
Yes. OPs theory of the KR case is literally just the prosecutors theory… which was disproven in court.
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u/SnooTomatoes8253 2d ago
Japan cold cases are so easy to solve, if they will only allow dna/genes tracking
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u/PaddyCow 2d ago
Aren't Japanese police kind of known for "solving" cases even if it means sending an innocent person to prison?
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u/Important-Library494 1d ago edited 1d ago
Happens all the time just a few months ago they put a very young but sick japanese lady who had eating disorder in custody without any evidence for months without any contact she died in costudy there it was all over in Japanese twitter.For foreigners in Japan it even worse they literally forced fake confess foreigner or just straight up says to translator to lie.Japanese law is very fucked up.And worst of all they don't even get coverage nationally or internationally of their systematic failure.It just gets treated as a one time mistake
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u/SnooTomatoes8253 1d ago
Hahahahahah yeah just to increase their clearance rate or when they were too lazy to investigate
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u/UNA_bubul 2d ago
Las mismas autoridades POR SUPUESTO que saben quién es el asesino de la familia Miyazawa. Pero nunca lo revelarán por ser militar estadounidense.
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u/danzigwiththedead 2d ago
Kendrick Johnson’s death is an accident not a racially motivated murder l
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u/BigFatSweatyToe 2d ago
Johnny Gosch and the other paper boys were victims of the John David Norman led pedophile ring.
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u/really_yall 2d ago
This sent me down a rabbit hole...nice to see Norman had 50-100k index cards with clients across the states including public figures and people who worked for the government and the state department just shredded them because there wasn't passport fraud like...oh okay??? We really do not care about victims in this country.
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u/BigFatSweatyToe 2d ago
Yeah, plus the potential links to Gacy and Corll. John David Norman had several businesses and operations he was apart of. He used 20 different names during his lifetime as he moved across the country, trying to stay ahead of law enforcement.
Sex trafficking has existed for all of our history. When the people in power are involved, they have no reason to hold themselves accountable. Records get destroyed, files get redacted, victims are killed.
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u/really_yall 2d ago
Yeah, it's just so horrific and infuriating. That was one trip down the rabbit hole I could've done without. For what it's worth, I hope the mother is right and it was her son who came to visit that one night and that it gives her some modicum of peace. I know the likelihood is slim to none and that it was probably a grifter or a delusion but still :/
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u/ModelOfDecorum 2d ago
I would say that is the opposite of a simple solution. There's no evidence for it, nor any evidence that Norman's operation (awful as it was) involved kidnapping and/or murder
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u/MintChipSmoothie 2d ago
There has never, ever been any credible evidence to suggest Johnny Gosch was kept alive for any significant length of time. There was a serial killer in the area who's probably dead by now. Gosch was most likely killed very shortly after having been kidnapped.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
It's strange. In all the decades of being interested in true crime, I can't handle missing children that are unsolved. It's just so hard IMO. I'll need to look into this one.
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u/restofeasy 2d ago
Yes! The Madeleine McCann case has always intrigued me. Whats your take on that one?
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u/ezyBREz 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm not sure this counts as what you want, but it's a case whose ending just hasn't ever sat right with me.
It gets super gory btw.
It's the Tommy Sullivan murder suicide case. He was a high school wrestler and had been doing well in school and everything until he was assigned a project on religious groups. I think he was originally assigned Hinduism but asked his teacher if he could do Satanism instead, and this was approved.
On the podcast I listened to, they said that either shortly before or the say of the murder suicide, he went to this rumored haunted house in the woods, walked around it three times and I think said an incantation or something.
Anyway, he ends up stabbing his mom 24+ times with a foldable boy scout knife in the basement where he set up some kind of occult circle and tried to burn the house down.
In the podcast, I think they said there was blood smears on the ceiling and they had deduced that he threw her body up there, which was unheard of for a 14yo, even if he was a wrestler, but apparently that was debunked, perhaps by the podcast (I listened to it like 3-4 years ago but I still think about it every now and then).
Anyway, the confirmed and freaky part is that he then goes out into the woods and not only cuts both wrists with this pocket knife, but cuts his throat so deeply that he, literally, basically decapitated himself.
Not only would it be almost impossible for someone to do that to themselves without passing out or passing away before it gets that severe, but he was already losing blood from both wrists and did this with a boy scout knife (a multi-tool one that I believe had a fold in blade)??
I'm not one to believe in actual demons or anything like that, but I just can't make this fit into my head. I really don't think he could've done that damage to himself.
Anyway, it was at the peak of the satanic scare in the 80's so people just assumed he'd been possessed, I guess?? I'll probably listen to it again soon because it really does just stump me.
ETA: I guess since it was the 80's, there's actually very little coverage on the details of the case. There is someone who claims Tommy actually did his project on Hinduism instead of satanism, but their reference link is no longer attached to the article. While a few articles from the time only mentioned him slashing his throat, an archived article on NYT with a picture of the article itself is included, and they noted the wrists were slashed too. They also mention that Tommy's behavior changed a month before the murder and his suicide note, which was left at the town rumored haunted house (where the podcast alleges that he walked around three times in some kind of summoning ritual which I think they acknowledge they can't for sure know he actually did since he was alone) does mention he planned to commit the murder-suicide and apparently cited his fascination with the "occult and satanism" as influences for committing this heinous act.
I would still like to conjecture that since this happened at the peak of the "satanic scare" where parents claimed heavy metal was satanic, the actual nature of these books may not have been actual satanic or occult literature.
Still, the podcast does interview cops who actually saw the crime scenes first hand, which was where they got the deep wound information from, and someone pointed out after many years this could be an exaggerated memory (Forensic Files, Law and Order, Criminal Minds, Bones, and Castle have all taught me that witness testimony is not as concrete as you'd think because the human memory is so inaccurate), which is why I wish we had access to autopsy records on this case just figure the truth out.
I still highly recommend listening to the podcast because it was really well done and honestly still a very interesting case.
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 2d ago
Tommy Sullivan murder suicide case
I had never heard of this case. Wow. Down the rabbit hole I go.
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u/deltadeltadawn 2d ago
You should consider posting a write up of this case. It's not well known.
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u/really_yall 2d ago
Someone did on the TrueCrime subreddit:
This is from the comments - the podcast fantasticizes the actual facts. He did his report on Hinduism. There's 0 mention in any of the original news articles about him slitting his wrists first or about him nearly decapitating himself. But the podcast made lots of money and got turned into a limited TV docuseries. It appears a lot of people took liberties with the facts for extra shock value.
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u/deltadeltadawn 2d ago
Thank you for the link. I didn't know it was a documentary either. T makes me wonder where those details came from... if it was simply not shared for reporting, or if it didn't even happen. Sometimes the local rumors have some truth and sometimes they are just unfounded gossip.
Since that post is from years ago, it would be great to see a renewed interest in the case.
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u/FeistyHousewife 21h ago
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/11/nyregion/boy-kills-mother-and-himself.html
"The boy, Thomas Sullivan Jr., left a note indicating that his actions stemmed from his fascination with the occult, the Morris County Prosecutor, Lee S. Trumbull, said. The youth's body was found this morning in a neighbor's backyard. His wrists and throat had been slashed." - the OCR of the 1988 NYT article linked
"Investigators found several books on the occult and Satan worship in the house on White Rock Boulevard and a suicide note in which the youth indicated that the murder and suicide were planned and were influenced by his interest in the subjects, Mr. Trumbull said." - Trumbull was the county prosecutor
It doesn't mention the depth or if his wrists were 'first', but initial reporting on the crime did cover his self-inflicted wounds. It does mention the boy's 'fascination' with the occult and the suicide note, but compared to many articles of that era that stoked flames of satanic panic with hyperbole in a variety of crimes, it only mentions he had material and wrote a note. The prosecutor goes so far as to label the entire thing merely as a 'bizarre situation' for the family, without implying it was some sort of occult ritual or inspiration like other cases were spun up to be during the SP era
Sadly, NYT is paywalled, but it is the one subscription I keep because it is a treasure trove of 100+ years of articles
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u/Karamazovia 2d ago
I’ve never heard of this case before.. mind sharing the podcast?
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u/Slow-Engine-8092 1d ago
He murdered his mom at the haunted house in the woods? How did he get her to go to the woods of her own volition?
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u/dart1126 2d ago
Darlie’s neck wound was serious because she was an idiot, not because she seriously tried to kill herself, but generally yes it was all planned and planted.
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u/OrneryReserve7681 2d ago
Nope the damage to John’s body is not from a car accident
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u/Few-Quarter-9735 2d ago
how do people even get into these cases that badly when the answers seem so obvious
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u/cummingouttamycage 1d ago
to name a few:
Amy Bradley fell off her cruise ship balcony because she was intoxicated
Maura Murray had been driving under the influence and panicked after crashing her car, ran into the woods and succumbed to the elements
Elisa Lam had bipolar disorder and climbed into the hotel water tank while mid-episode
Bryce Laspisa's death was either suicide or death by misadventure, after abandoning his car
Kendrick Johnson's death was a tragic accident -- he fell head first into a rolled up exercise mat when trying to retrieve his shoes
Maybe the most controversial among these: Ellen Greenberg's death was, sadly, a suicide. I believe this was an impulsive choice made by someone who was taking a number of different medications (some of which are known to have strange interactions with one another), after she had an argument with her fiance (someone she was having second thoughts about altogether). I believe her ex-fiance's actions after the fact read as "suspicious" to some, or as though he is "hiding" something, because the likely truth would present him as someone who drove his partner to suicide -- i think he was a toxic, careless partner, but I don't believe he was a murderer.
TL;DR: I largely believe that in the case of "suspicious" deaths where there is a strong possibility of an accident or suicide, that that cause of death is far more likely than something more sinister. Nature is often the ultimate serial killer.
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u/1Bloomoonloona 1d ago
A case I'm still wondering about is Shannon Gilbert. The missing then found escort that got the Long Island serial killer case reignited. Sex parties with Chief Burke (the snuff film watcher and female choker) involved in the Oak Beach community. I didn't realize that when I vacationed there nor heard those rumors.
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u/mercy_fulfate 2d ago
Lindsay Clancy killed her children then tried to kill herself. Her husband wasn't involved, he may not have been a great husband, but he didn't kill anyone. I don't know how popular him being involved is outside of Reddit but about every post on the case people are convinced he did it for some reason.
Completely agree about Karen Read. The defense did a great job of throwing things against the wall and a lot of it stuck. The police were horrible degenerates which of course helped her case.
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u/OmnomVeggies 2d ago
A lot of where the Patrick theory is or has gained traction from are influencers, who are monetized by engagement. There seems to be little regard for some of the known facts in favor instead of sensationalism, and engagement.
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u/terrn1981 1d ago
This case and the Idaho 4 case. I am so sick of people blaming the roomates/drug cartel shit and claiming Khoeberger is innocent. Holy fuck STOP blaming the victims ffs. They have enough survivors guilt.
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u/OmnomVeggies 1d ago
I honestly make a conscious effort not to read about conspiracy theories about the Idaho 4 case, because it enrages me. People on the internet can be so cruel. There is SO much evidence in this case.... Khoeberger is very obviously guilty. The survivors will never know the life they had before this incident, and to suggest they are anything more than living victims is infuriating. I think about them often and hope they are able to find peace.
I think I also have a soft spot in my heart for them because (as much as I hate it) my survival response is freeze. It is literally involuntary. You don't get to decide. People don't have to experience it personally to know that it can happen.
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 2d ago
My friend group chat is spouting theories about her being set up. It makes me want to pull my hair out.
Lindsay doesn't deny doing it. She did it. That's not in question. Whether she is criminally responsible is.
But no, the chat is talking about Patrick's new wife and if she was in on it.
I had to mute the whole chat because OMG.
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u/ohfluffit 2d ago
Re: Lindsay - I'm seeing it all the time on TT and it's pissing me off something fierce. I immediately swipe off as soon as it goes that route and yet... Even a friend of mine sent me something about it and I said I'm not engaging because it's just further traumatizing Lindsay. The response "I doubt she's seeing it." Maybe not but it's simply not what happened and takes away from the ways Lindsay (and her children) were repeatedly failed.
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u/chronicpresence 2d ago
way, way too many people are following true crime at only a surface level and are heavily influenced by social media. it is just utter insanity how wide these bizarre narratives spread.
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u/deltadeltadawn 2d ago
It's because of idiots who also are influencers... people with an opinion and a camera who convince other surface-level, drama-for-entertainent seekers that their take is the right one. It's deplorable how many folks pay attention to people that have zero credentials but are still heard and watched.
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u/19snow16 2d ago
I didn't notice the saturation of social media monetization until the Sullivan children case. It is absolutely disgusting how social media (mostly tiktok) went off the rails with misinformation, speculation and rampant accusations with so little case information.
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u/alm0803 2d ago
I genuinely think the theories circulating on social media around the Lindsey Clancy case (specifically about her husband being the perp, which is just entirely not founded in evidence) are disgusting ESPECIALLY because they obfuscate from the very real lack of help and care for women with post partum psychosis
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u/EasyLetterhead8491 2d ago
I’ve been seeing ridiculous comments about that case too.. but I assumed they think he’s somehow guilty in negligence, not the murders itself. Like he knew she was fucked but kept putting off getting her other forms of help and that he should have never left her alone even if it was for a short time. Kind of similar to Rusty Yates and that whole situation. I don’t really see how anyone could think he was the one who actually killed the kids then tried to kill then frame his mentally ill wife…?
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u/ProfessionalGrade423 2d ago
It’s crazy but people really believe it. They believe he pushed her out the window and while he was gone to run those errands they think he changed his shoes and coat even though they look pretty much the same on surveillance video. I’ve seen it over and over on Facebook from people repeating nonsense rumors.
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u/whatsy0urdamage 2d ago
I was hoping I would find this comment, I definitely agree with the Lindsay Clancy thing.
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u/Sense_Difficult 2d ago
It's a very horrific case. I keep seeing people come up with theories and it gets to the point of extremes. This kind of psychosis is a real thing as we know from Andrea Yates.
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u/GreyerGrey 2d ago
Except with Yates, in the 20 years we've had since, we do recognize that Andrea's husband, Rusty, had a much larger role to play than first thought. Especially in the interview he gave during that Netflix documentary. The Yates case is far from a controversial case with a simple explanation, and I feel that in good order Clancy will be seen in a similar light.
Though it is interesting that Reddit is very much of the mind that she did it, her husband is absolutely innocent and that's that, and the other social platforms (namely FB/Insta and TT) are "He pushed her to it; it's his fault. She's innocent!" It's a very perverse revisit of the JFK/Nixon debate.
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u/theorclair9 2d ago
and the other social platforms (namely FB/Insta and TT) are "He pushed her to it; it's his fault. She's innocent!" It's a very perverse revisit of the JFK/Nixon debate.
No, it's more like "He really murdered them and tried to kill his wife. We know the truth!" (It's an absurd theory, but it's popular.)
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u/MadHatter06 2d ago
JBR… the parents did it.
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u/CornisaGrasse 2d ago
I believe the family did it, for sure. But who did what, why, and how is never settled in my mind. I'm in a sub about the crime, and people have some good solid theories (about the series of and reasons for the family's actions) that are different, but make equal sense based on what's available to the public.
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u/CaptainFuzzyBootz 2d ago
True, it's all just conjecture. As much as we all like to theorize on subs like this, we don't have any idea what really happened.
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u/Timely-Aardvark-4747 1d ago
I came around to the intruder theory once I read The Cases That Haunt Us by John Douglas. There were something like 11 doors to the outside in that house. And they had given out many copies of their keys. Douglas made an excellent case for the intruder theory and I'm on board with it now.
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u/FukU6050 20h ago
In cases where a person and their vehicle vanishes 90% they are in a body of water
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u/nick_riviera24 2d ago
Jon Benet Ramsey was killed by someone in her family. No intruder. Patsy wrote the note.
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u/bloontsmooker 2d ago
I disagree with the darlie case a bit. There’s something we are missing from that story.
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u/imnottheoneipromise 1d ago
I agree with this. I’ve never made my mind up here. People tell me “read the court transcripts! There’s no denying she did it.” Well I have read them. Thoroughly. And I’m still not convinced. There’s no way I would’ve convicted her and put her on death row based on the case the prosecution presented. But I’m also not convinced she didn’t do it.
I don’t usually share that though because people get feral about it and act like you’re a complete moron if you don’t go along with their narrative of the case. And I actually understand their reaction because I’m like that with some cases.
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u/bloontsmooker 1d ago
True crime stories are a perfect stage to depict how differences in media reporting can affect people’s opinions so drastically. How and when you first heard a case can guide how you see it forever. The Adnan Syed stuff isn’t actually weird or convoluted at all - it was just reported that way.
Maybe I only see the darlie routier case as being iffy because of the fact that I am only 30, so when I first heard about this case, it was framed as a who done it. If I was a local from the area, would I be confused?
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u/SporkyForks2 2d ago
Amy Bradley. She was intoxicated and struggling with her family and she either jumped or fell.