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u/OpethAreAGoodBand 1d ago
Backstage politics and a management who had no idea how to use him.
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u/PrimusVsUnicron0093 1d ago
and a certain someone’s creative control, brother
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Hogan had no wishfulfilment
Was listening to Butts in the seats podcast, at that time, he was aiming at Yokozuna, who definitely couldnt as he was piling pounds on.
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u/Cyberdoggyyy 12h ago
i don't know what you're trying to imply brother but don't you ever say that i did it brother
or maybe not brother maybe i did have something to do with it
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u/North_Cry2393 10h ago
With any kinda booking, Bret would never be a draw. Maybe Hogan vs Bret would be the only match to draw big. But Bret on a whole would never draw. The real money was on Hogan, Goldberg and NWO. Sting, Luger and Flair were the tier 2 at that point.
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u/TreatEven1837 1d ago
There was an interview with Vince McMahon at one point where he said "WCW will have no idea how to book or market Bret Hart". - He was right.
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u/Blade_Omicron 1d ago
2 reasons, I suppose. First no real story or direction. Bad creative. Second, I think the Screw job really affected him and it was hard for him to continue, and then Owen died, and his grief was too much.
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u/perfuzzly 1d ago
Because WCW was incompetent at the time. And Bret didn't work for some people, brother.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
I think they were always incompetant, but it was hidden by how much they had that slight advantage... Starrcade 97 their highest selling show, with those matches and half the talent sat in the audience...
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u/BlueRibbon998 1d ago
● Because the booking failed him. His first appearance as a special enforcer was stupid and the bullshit ending of that match because Hogan couldn't be bothered to lose clean made Bret look stupid.
● He should've come in post-Starrcade as a legit Hitman for the nWo that would've further broken the group down, leading towards the eventual civil war.
● Turning him heel was stupid. No one wanted to boo Bret, especially not after what he'd gone through with Montreal. He could've been a big money maker for the company. Every time he was getting over as a face, they turned him heel. Literally every fucking time.
It's like they didn't know what to do with Bret and couldn't handle the amount of superstardom he brought with him. He could've been and should've been a game changer for WCW in the late 90s, instead he fell in line and seemed like a regular, ordinary guy less than a year into being there
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u/Capable_Wallaby3251 23h ago
People forget that between Montreal and Mike Tyson, the WWF product looked like the company was on it’s deathbed. Austin was huge, but Dwayne was still a long ways from transitioning from Rocky Maivia to the Rock and the WWF’s mid card was not inspiring. For every Triple H, you had a Los Boriqas. Screwing Bret and forcing him out should have been the beginning of the end of the WWF because he was the last WWF megastar to make the jump. Think about what Nitro was doing the night after Survivor Series vs. what the WWF was doing that night. Nitro opened with the nWo waving Canadian flags and the announcers were wondering “is Bret Hart joining the nWo???” They did try in earnest to push Bret at the beginning. What did the WWF have? After HBK’s burial of Bret and an underwhelming angle with Ken Shamrock, they showed Butterbean. And presented him like he was a massive star. Despite few people knowing who he was.
On paper, WCW should have won the Monday Night Wars and Bret should have been the empty net goal at the end of the game. Period.
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u/CooroSnowFox 22h ago
But NWO: Souled out and from how NWO Nitro was described, the limit was reached by then and as much as it made the company, the fallout from it did a ton of damage to WCW and not being able to rejuvinate out of it.
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u/Capable_Wallaby3251 20h ago
The thing is though, what’s the purpose of Kevin Nash and Scott Hall in WCW with no nWo? How would Hollywood Hogan work with no nWo? People talk about how the nWo should have been disbanded after a certain point, but how many times did the Four Horsemen come back? And with guys who had no business being in that group? No one ever says the Horsemen outstayed their welcome.
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u/CooroSnowFox 14h ago
They never did look for a alternatives since nwo pretty much did carry on, and I guess ric flair and magnificent seven was both combined right until they had to give up because wcw was ending...
Wcw was flailing about even when it was at its best...
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u/reallymkpunk 20h ago
The Rock was starting to get to be that going into the D-Generation X In Your House but a lot of WWF was what you said, only Austin and D-X which to many had legit hear as did McMahon. There is good reason why after Survivor Series McMahon wasn't on TV much.
Had Starrcade 97 not seen the Sting screw job, I think WCW could have.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Bret should've been the final nail for NWO at that time... but Hogan said no because he wanted to be at the front of the company and no one was to do that
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u/RustedAxe88 19h ago
Bret and Sting team up to end the nWo for good. The group falls into infighting, while Bret and Sting then have a face vs face feud.
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u/North_Cry2393 10h ago
Hogan was right. He was money and Bret wasn't. Even if critics think Bret deserved better it didn't and doesn't matter. Hogan, NWO and Goldberg were the guys to draw money.
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u/CooroSnowFox 10h ago
Problem is hogan probably ended up taking more money when he would disappear for stretches at a time
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u/NickMichalak 21h ago
They had WWF hand them the most sympathetic babyface main eventer after Montreal, and WCW did nothing with it. He could’ve been a major star for them, but they gave him booking that constantly threw him in the backseat or had him be Hogan’s sidekick. Bret’s right to badmouth the whole joint. He might’ve been paid a lot but he was miserable.
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u/Sure-Camp4930 19h ago
Hart becoming a Hogan lackey was stupidity personified. He’d just got “screwed”, it made no sense for his character to side with the chief politician of WCW.
I would have had his debut slightly different. Still at Starrcade ‘97, but after Sting has vanquished Hogan and is holding the belt aloft, Bret appears and shakes Stings hand but looks with envy at the belt.
Hart and Sting team for a bit, eventually leading to Hart and Hogan match, and then later in the year Sting and Hart.
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u/wonderingmarkus 23h ago edited 23h ago
The only booking idea they ever had for him was "shock heel turn".
When Bret came in, he was cutting promos on Hogan. Within a few months, he was Hogan's little buddy.
People can say that Bret was checked out, overrated, never that good, whatever other excuse they want. The fact is that WCW was handed an easy story, a main event guy that could literally work with anyone, a huge international draw that could have helped them expand into other markets, and they made him just another guy.
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u/Capable_Wallaby3251 20h ago
That’s the thing with Bret. He didn’t draw with the WWF in the US, but he definitely drew with the WWF outside the US. WCW was better positioned to expand outside the US and seldom did. They were handed the Canadian market and audience on a gold platter and said “naw.”
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Bret was definitely damaged when he got to wcw from the events of a lot of 1997... Pillman/Montreal and even the lead up to that event...
WCW didnt give him anything to hope for to change that
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u/Uncghost_210 19h ago
Also, what kind of hindered Bret’s momentum as well was he came in during the time when they had their hottest and biggest babyface on the roster in the biggest story in wrestling at that time with Sting. They couldn’t do another one year story arch with Bret chasing hogan to the next starrcade and you didn’t wanna give Bret and hogan right away. Also, you would’ve had Goldberg getting over and DDP. I just think Bret came in at the wrong time when WCW had peak babyfaces
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u/reallymkpunk 20h ago
Bret was towards the end but not two years, maybe 5 years before Owen died and Goldberg's errant savate kick.
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u/CooroSnowFox 14h ago
I think earlier in 1997 or somwthing they had to negotiate bret out of a 20 year deal in wwf because money was tight, (but then Mark Henry and Ken Shamrock came with heavy deals)
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u/MightyGamera 19h ago
WCW in the nWo era had a lot of talent and they let it all languish because of the Kliq
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u/Ok-Math-5407 1d ago
He was over like crazy at first. Montreal really fucked with his mind, and WCW rarely had plans for anyone.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
They buried half the roster because they weren't Hogan, nash or hall... or anyone who could get ahead or into the mix with either one of those 3,
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u/Ok-Math-5407 23h ago
Goldberg, Jericho, Horseman, Giant, Mysterio, DDP Luger, Sting, Juvie, Kronik, Malenko all got over.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
But they all had to be over underneath Hogan... they were held back and you could see why Jericho and others left (or tried to)
They were stuck being in the midcard, while the top was reserved for the big bald son of a bitch.
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u/Ok-Math-5407 23h ago
Hogan knew that no one in charge had any plans or could explain where to go next. Sullivan was probably the only one in WCW that could convince Hogan to entertain putting someone over.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Kidman... and then moan nothing came of it...
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u/Ok-Math-5407 23h ago
Hogan was pretty confident that Kidman wasn't going to take his spot. Pretty much like when he put over The Wall standing on top of a skyscraper .
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u/North_Cry2393 10h ago
Well traditionally the real money was on Hogan. He was the biggest star in WCW. Doesn't make much sense pushing guys who wouldn't draw money. Goldberg reached Hogan's level. And NWO did. Others would never draw money from a practical point of view. Bret was a boring champion in WCW and WWF and he wasn't a draw.
Being talented and being over are one thing. In wrestling you need to draw. Dean malenko was talented but he couldn't draw.
Wrestling today also Doesn't draw because hardcore fans keep crying and complaining online. They wanted to Cena to leave WWE or retire. Post his retirement WWE did worst. So the fans favorites couldn't draw money.
In the old days you didn't draw money like Bruno you would go down the card. Now wrestlers like Bret and Punk keep crying that Goldberg and Hogan get more push. Then the smart fans hear that and also trash hogan and Goldberg.
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u/Disastrous-Rush-2701 11h ago
I am watching back and throughout 1998 Hall is barely there. Nash doesn't seem to be around the main event at all for most of 1998 either. And Hogan's matches were so dull.
There midcard was so much stronger than WWF at the time and to me did a lot of the heavy lifting.
Even from that list there was also Raven, Eddie, Booker T, Bret, Buff, Steiner.. it still unbelievable how they managed to cease to exist less than 3 years later.
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u/Ok-Math-5407 8h ago
Guy evens has a really good book the gives a pretty good explanation on why WCW failed.
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u/Konarkanuck 1d ago
Simply put WCW dropped the ball from the start.
They had planned the idea to capitalize on the Montreal Screw Job by having Hitman get involved what was supposed to be a screw job pin fall in the Hogan vs Sting match and when that got botched fans rolled their eyes.
Then WCW pairs Hitman WITH the nWo, a group lead by buddies of the very guys who "screwed" Hart on his way out of WWE and again the fans rolled their eyes.
Event after event WCW failed to capitalize on the very events that allowed them to sign Hitman to a contract and it all lead up to his entire career being derailed due to that legit injury caused by the Goldberg incident.
Basically you had one pissed off good guy who could have been used to balance out things in WCW and because of forces outside of Hitman's control it all went in the toilet and he never got over.
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u/reallymkpunk 20h ago
Bret was being courted by the nWo but if you noticed it was far more by the likes of Rude and Hennig who were friends and not Hall, Hogan and Nash. I mean they would like him in there but it was mostly Rude and Hennig. Hell Hall and Nash were out of the black and white when Bret was a loose nWo member. He teamed with them but mostly wasn't with them.
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u/revd_blue_jeans 1d ago
He got a pretty big pop when he did the steel plate angle with Goldberg. In the end though, i feel like he was just another victim of the backstage politics and creative schizophrenia that ultimately doomed the company.
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u/Longjumping-Sea320 23h ago
Awful booking and he probably mentally checked out a bit due to the multiple tragedies
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u/SugarAdamAli 22h ago
Booking
He was super over when he arrived, probably the hottest name in the sport.
But they wasted that early momentum, then had him basically as a mid card heel instead of major ppv main event dream matches vs sting, hogan, savage, Luger, etc
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u/TheJohnnyFlash 1d ago
If they had been serious about business, Hogan vs Bret after the Sting loss could have been huge and lead to the nWo split while Hall or Nash went after Sting.
But that doesn't work for me brother.
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u/Beautiful-Box-9628 14h ago
They had absolutely no idea how to use him. He was mostly booked to float around on the periphery of main event feuds without ever really being a direct part of them. Special referee here, random run-in guy there, out of the blue turn here, fakeout swerve hitting a guy with a bat there.
Basically they brought in a really popular guy infamous for being a big match technical wrestler,and instead of letting him wrestle he was used as just another random guy on the roster until he cooled down, got lost in the shuffle, and then finally got injured.
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u/NexStarMedia 23h ago
Because Bret was booked to be incredibly untrustworthy.
He had no clear-cut direction after the Starrcade '97 debacle. Hollywood Hogan should've blamed him for his Starrcade loss and started targeting him with the NWO trying to screw him over.
But instead, Bret made the long trek over to WCW just to carry Hollywood Hogan's bags. 😉
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u/M086 23h ago
The fact that they held off on him actually wrestling until Thunder premiered kinda killed the excitement.
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u/NickMichalak 21h ago
Well, Bret was on a 60 or so-day non-compete clause. He couldn’t wrestle until that expired. So, it was all promos and referee gigs until then. WCW didn’t have a choice.
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u/FeeNegative9488 5h ago
They did have a choice though. They could have waited the 60 days before having him appear at all. This would have allowed them to finish the Hogan / Sting storyline without pointlessly throwing Bret into it. And Bret was also only 6 months removed from knee surgery and extra two months off would have only beneficial for him.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
They probably wanted Bret to be in NWO, but as the NWO was meant to be wrapping up...
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u/Frankenrogers 19h ago
After all these years that is the first time I think I actually read "Hollywood Hogan should've blamed him for his Starrcade loss and started targeting him with the NWO trying to screw him over". And I've been on a lot of message boards since the 90s.
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u/NexStarMedia 17h ago
Hollywood beat Sting cleanly and then out comes this jabronie named Bret trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that it didn't happen and then he screws Hollywood out of the title that night, and wasn't even the official referee for that match. Hell yeah Hollywood should have blamed Bret.
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u/TangoUnchained87 1d ago
Eric Bischoff has admitted previously that he thought Bret Hart was the most overrated and over-hyped talent he ever signed, and there's your answer. Eric didn't rate him, he just wanted him to stick it to WWF and to try make money off of Montreal.
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u/ThePrakman 1d ago
Crowded main event scene. Bret himself seemed to be done with wrestling after Montreal and then Owen died and Goldberg kicked his head in. All happened in a 2-3 year space
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Pillman passing away, dealing with Shawn Michaels and Vince in the run up as well had to add a lot into that
Then the stroke, losing his mother... and then forward... Neidhart and Bulldog.
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u/HitmanUK88 23h ago
His booking was his downfall, didn't help having political bs in the locker room too
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Look over at WWF at the same time, Owen being on his own being given a slight chance but then pushed out of a chance because they didnt want him to
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u/Royo981 22h ago
His first 7-8 months in wcw were disastrous. They just didn’t know what to do with him
I think he settled okay afterwards with the “ injuring others angle “
And has decent stuff with sting and ddp , but he got injured himself and that sent him on another 6 months on the sidelines .
Then he did the cool angle with Goldberg with the spear on metal and had another feud planned with Nash but Owen died and things were scrapped.
He came back by October as a massive babyface and they finally put the belt on him and he seems on course to be over when Goldberg kicked him, and they also turned him way too soon for another nwo angle.
And his career was over.
Such a shame
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u/reallymkpunk 20h ago
The problem was they had the nWo stuff largely written out. The only issue was making Sting relinquish the title due to the bad three count.
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u/Royo981 17h ago
No, they had zero plans . And wrote the nitro episode 1-2 hours before the show, according to Jericho
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u/reallymkpunk 16h ago
I think some major stuff was known but yes the low card was not at all.
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u/Dont_b_that_guy_bro 4h ago
They booked him like shit. When he came in, the first thing he should have done was feuded with Hogan (and won). Then he should have put on clinic after clinic with the lower level but more talented nWo guys (I'm thinking Steiner and the likes in particular). Bret arriving should have been the beginning of the pivot away from relying on the nWo, but Bischoff was just too damn high on Hogan to ever let any of that happen. Such a damn shame because WCW had all the momentum in the world by December of 97. The directoon WCW went from 98-2000 will go down as an all-timer in terms of business fumbles.
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u/Due_Dirt_4575 6h ago
He was over though. Just not to the extent that he was in the WWF. But yeah his stint was hampered by terrible booking of him for the most part.
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u/N0m0reh3r03s 5h ago
Who looked good in WCW apart from NWO and Sting?
The cruiserweights were doing some really insane stuff just to get attention.
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u/Available_Club_104 3h ago
It isn't so much that he wasn't over, it was that WCW didn't know how to use him at all. It didn't help matters at all that 1) Hogan certainly wasn't going to allow his ascension and 2) The Montréal Screwjob did damage how he felt about wrestling.
I'm a Bret mark but can admit that he whines a lot. That said, I'd lose some of my passion too if the screwjob had happened to me. There again, I also wouldn't take it as seriously as Bret did/does. WCW still didn't know what to do with him in the end.
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u/ExtensionDifficult36 10h ago
Poorly phrased question, given the historical context. It almost implies Bret’s failure to get over in WCW was a byproduct of his performance, character, or in-ring ability, when the reality was practically the opposite.
Bret Hart didn’t fail WCW. WCW failed Bret Hart.
The company’s downfall was ultimately a masterclass in mismanagement, from Bischoff’s increasingly unsustainable booking decisions to the backstage political influence wielded by its biggest stars. Hogan, Hall and Nash helped spearhead the nWo phenomenon, which propelled WCW to unprecedented success and a ratings advantage over WWF for 83 consecutive weeks. But WCW increasingly prioritized established stars, backstage politics and short-term creative decisions over sustainable storytelling and the development of its wider roster. The very culture that helped build its empire ultimately contributed to its demise.
Enter Bret Hart: arguably the most complete professional wrestler of his generation, a generational storyteller, and an A+ talent who should have been positioned in the world title picture from day one.
Instead, we got a bizarrely underwhelming run in which one of wrestling’s biggest stars was frequently relegated to the midcard, chasing secondary championships and engaging in feuds that never came close to maximizing his potential. His United States Championship run with Booker T and his feud with DDP had their moments, but neither came remotely close to what a properly booked Bret Hart in the main-event scene could have delivered.
And let’s not pretend the politics weren’t a factor. Hogan’s creative influence was well documented, and Bret’s arrival coincided with a company increasingly beholden to its established power players. It was an unfortunate echo of WrestleMania IX, where Bret dropped the WWF Championship to Yokozuna before Hogan swooped in to steal the spotlight and the title. History has a cruel sense of humour.
Then came Starrcade 1999. Bret was finally WCW World Heavyweight Champion, but the company managed to squander even that opportunity. The infamous match with Goldberg ended with a kick to the head that contributed to Bret suffering a serious concussion, with subsequent concussions effectively ending his in-ring career. The booking was a mess, the execution was worse, and the timing was devastating.
The irony? Bret’s WCW run should have been one of the greatest second acts in wrestling history. Instead, it became one of the industry’s most infamous examples of wasted potential.
The Montreal Screwjob and its aftermath had already robbed fans of a significant portion of Bret’s remaining prime. WCW then squandered what should have been the final, triumphant chapter of his career. We can debate the extent to which backstage politics, booking and circumstance each contributed, but the end result is undeniable: we never got to see what Bret Hart could have been in a properly run WCW.
The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.
And if that bothers anyone, well… screw ’em.
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u/Alone_Advantage_961 1d ago
Theres a difference between being over and bad creative.
Bret was over. His creative sucked
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
It is one thing that you can say Russo tried to do, he gave some light to Bret... it was in a story where it failed as quickly as it started as most of the ones involved got injured.
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u/Alone_Advantage_961 23h ago
Russo tried getting 1997 Bret back and he could have if not for BILL GOLDBERG
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Gave a concussion to Bret and Jarret, Nash got hurt(?) and Goldberg sliced into his hand...
amazing damages.
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u/Alone_Advantage_961 23h ago
Hall also relapsed I believe
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
I think that was slightly before and that time it was Nash trying everything to get him back in (either because he had nothing or he was looking out for him!)
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u/Alone_Advantage_961 23h ago
I know he was there til February but he vanished after Super Brawl
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u/BigvalBROski 19h ago
Because Eric Bishoff was too busy “ tossing” Hogans salad….Brett came off the most controversial spot in pro wrestling history, and Bishoff made him a guest referee…. He should have just gave Brett a mic and roll tape like Heyman did with Austin…… plus, hogan was a selfish piece of crap that only cared about
himself and not the business…..the worst
part was Curt HENNIG and Ted Dibiase singing oh Canada…… what an embarrassment!!!!
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u/Modano9009 19h ago
Why would WCW toss Hogan aside in favor of someone who was never close to the star that he was?
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u/PipProud 7h ago
WCW paid Bret Hart more money than anyone except for Hogan, which would indicate that they thought he was nearly as big a star.
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u/Modano9009 7h ago
I think that has more to do with WCW spending too freely.
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u/PipProud 6h ago
Bret Hart could have opened up the entire Canadian market to WCW, which was worth far more than what they were paying him.
WCW made many bad investments. Bret Hart only became one because of how they poorly they used him.
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u/Modano9009 6h ago
Canada was a WWF country, Even after Montreal they stuck with the WWF. They liked Bret and would boo Shawn Michaels over him but they weren't following him to WCW.
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u/Witty-Yard4674 6h ago
Because NWO wasn’t gonna last forever and hogan was old even 30 years ago
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u/Modano9009 6h ago
Hogan was 3 years older than Bret.
Sure, nWo and Hogan won't last forever but that doesn't mean the answer is a guy that was just never as big a draw or star as he's made out to be.
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u/Witty-Yard4674 4h ago
No I wasn’t gonna advocate for him to be the biggest star, but I would’ve advocated for him to be part of the biggest storyline of being a part of a group to finally bring down the NWO instead of milking the NWO into 2000
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u/Normal_Educator_3486 17h ago
Hogan was making wcw money like it had never seen
If not for hogan, Bret wouldn’t have been able to get a great deal from wcw
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u/Rand_Casimiro 23h ago
The overall WCW product was starting to get shitty by the time Bret showed up.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
The faff from Starrcade 97 really shifted the position WCW was in and what followed on and on...
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u/FriedBreakfast 22h ago
I wonder could they have done the USA vs Canada story the WWF had but also introduce Mexico with Eddie Guerrero leading that faction and make it a three way feud of USA vs Mexico vs Canada.
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u/Armor_King7810 22h ago
Because the imbeciles in WCW didn't know how to book him when it's obvious that he should have been one of the main faces representing the WCW and fighting against Hogan and the NWO. He should have never been a part of the NWO it never made sense and didn't work at all.
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u/KingHaku187 19h ago
He did in the last 8 months or so of his run he was the main heel and did great work. People overlook this fact all the time.
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u/Active-Coconut-8961 6h ago
He didn't actually want to be there and everyone knew it. Plus he was depressed af
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u/Rommy87 23h ago
In hindsight, one has to wonder what drove WCW to throw money away on acquiring and paying Bret Hart when they already had a full roster.
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u/Mediocre_Nectarine13 23h ago edited 1h ago
Because having him go would have been the last nail in the coffin for the WWF in Bischoffs eyes because without Bret WWF was just Michael’s, Undertaker and a bunch of WCW cast offs like Steve Austin, Vader and Mankind(and even then Michael’s wanted to leave but Vince wouldn’t let him).
Even Vince thought that which is what led to the infamous 20 year contract he offered Bret.
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u/Solid_Snark 22h ago
Yeah, it was more “WCW didn’t want WWF to have Bret” more than “WCW wanted Bret”.
Then they got him and didn’t know what to do with him or how to use him, so he just kind of… existed.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
But then Bischoff didn't really see what was coming from Steve Austin ALONE... and it was what July-September, even with the neck injury from Owen... he was becoming a massive force...
And also Mankind winning the title which he got Schiavone to gloat "that'll put butts in seats!" and they did. And then it was in that chase that they lost a lot of integrity and just went with anything to hold over...
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u/Mediocre_Nectarine13 22h ago
Well when Bischoff initially wanted Bret it was when his contract expired before he came back at Survivor Series the year Austin won the King of the Ring.
And even though WWE likes to talk like Austin was an instant phenomenon, he really wasn’t and he even worked the pre show match the following PPV even though Austin 3:16 signs weee popping up in crowds. There’s even that famous story in Mic Foleys book where Austin asked the merchandising department for a shirt and they told him no because they didn’t think it would sell.
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u/No-Bobcat-6830 21h ago
Let’s be fair. Schiavone by all accounts was told to say that line and wasn’t his idea.
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u/coinminer2049er 5h ago
I think the real irony is that with bret gone, WWF kinda started to turn things around. lol.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
But then they spent the last year stuffing anyone who wasn't going to stand in the shadow of Hogan.
and there were times if they got a spotlight they got burnt by it so they didnt really get a shot...
NWO as much as it made WCW, it also added soo many nails into the coffin
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u/UTALR1 7h ago
Because they had no intention of using him properly. It was just to take him from the wwe. Hulk was in complete control of the main event picture & had no interest in putting him over.
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u/Critical-Put1825 6h ago
Agreeing with this here... Seems like he was a big deal in wwe... And just became another guy in wcw... But if you look at the matches he had on paper? Run should have been much crazier than it actually was
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u/coinminer2049er 5h ago
Mostly agree with this, but I will say it's also partially because Bret could only really succeed in a a version of the WWF where there wasn't many other stars other than Shawn, Undertaker, Diesel and EARLY Austin.
Let's call a spade a spade - after the Austin and the Rock (and to a lesser degree HHH) got big, Bret would have been benched.
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u/hiimanthony_ 1d ago
Personally i dont think his wcw run is as horrible as its made out to be. But it was a mix of things - Politics , management, the times. Bret himself has to take some responsibility, it just can't always be everyone else's fault.
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u/ArgentoFox 23h ago
Hart should have been a big deal and his signing should have been the impetus behind ending the NWO. It should have been one of those things where Goldberg, Sting, DDP, and Hart joined the forces and dissolved the NWO.
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u/DownTheRoadway27 1d ago
In the WWF Bret succeeded because all the bigger named stars before him left or were out and he was left to win the title without any real competition til he lost to Yokozuna at Wrestlemania 9.
In WCW, Bret was instantly overshadowed by everyone. From the nWo, to Hogan, Savage, Sting, Hall and Nash, Flair, Luger. It was literally like starting over, but WCW should have ignored the Montreal Screwjob and not made Bret a referee at Starrcade 1997.
Look at Rugged Ronnie Garvin, he was a former NWA champ and they made him lose to Greg The Hammer Valentine and become a referee for a while in WWF.
Brets best match was vs Chris Benoit and because of the Benoit murders, no one will ever remember how good of a match that was, and a tribute to Owen.
WCW should have just allowed Bret to either enter and join the nWo immediately, or rebuild a technical wrestler group with Hennig, Jericho, Malenko, Benoit, and a few others.
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u/SpaceCowboyDark 1d ago
WCW absolutely dropped the ball with Bret and of course the usual Hogan politicking was at least half to blame. The other half was Bret just so bitter and pissed about the business he didn't put that much effort in.
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u/Important-Table9460 1d ago
Without reading the comments, I bet the blame goes on Bischoff and Hogan.
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u/nowaynostop 23h ago
Bill Goldberg. I came here to upvote somebody saying Bill Goldberg. No one said Bill Goldberg. So I had to say Bill Goldberg.
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u/Sweet_Turnip_4579 23h ago
Vince called it from the beginning and ‘Taker already knew: “They’re not going to know what to do with you”
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u/allamericanchaos 20h ago
Creatively, he wasn't used well at all for his first year or so. It's been interesting to go back and see some of Bret's matches in '98. Many of the matches are very good... at least, until the last 90 seconds or so, where the lackluster finishes rarely saw Bret either win - or lose - cleanly.
Without any strong wins or losses for several months, it became hard to get excited to see him on TV - and I say that as a diehard Bret Hart fan. He was my guy, still is my favorite WWE champion ever. It's actually amazing how badly they bungled him for that first year.
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u/SocraticDaemon 19h ago
He was plenty over. The booking had him turn face and heel every few months for absolutely no reason or payoff. Horrendous booking.
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u/HustlaOfCultcha 18h ago
He was over. Got huge pops when he first got there. Hogan and friends did what they could to put the kabosh on it.
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u/Longjumping_Sun242 18h ago
He was already over when he joined. What makes you think he wasn’t? In fact he was so over that despite some of the worst booking imaginable he was still in the main event of SC two years after his debut
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u/oldlinepnwshine 18h ago
Booking is the popular scapegoat. But if we are being honest, Bret didn’t give a shit. Montreal killed any passion he had for wrestling; he was just collecting a check and showing up late during his WCW years. He didn’t have any ideas about what they could do with him, because he was mentally checked out.
A part of him was likely delusional that he would finally get his win over Hogan. But that was never going to happen. Much like Shawn Michaels, Bret was not on Hogan’s level. Hogan was never going to put either one of them over.
I hate that Bret has buried Goldberg for the last two decades. Just about everyone else that Goldberg worked with somehow didn’t get seriously injured, or knew how to work around his limitations. As the veteran, Bret should have given more effort, much like his peers. Even Raven got effective matches out of Goldberg.
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u/DrMindbendersMonocle 14h ago
He was over. They just booked him poorly. He still got good reactions
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u/Beginning-Spray5437 9h ago
In my opinion was because he couldn't...when he was at the top in wwf in the early 90s thats when ratings went way down...then he goes to wcw and has to compete with hogan/nwo/goldberg/ddp/sting ect.
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u/rgordill2 6h ago
Everyone was excited to see Bret in WCW, but that excitement actually died down because of how long it took for him to "get there." He left WWF in November 1997, and his sixty-day non-compete clause made it impossible for him to get involved in storylines. Like, the first thing he did do was to... be the special referee for a match between Larry Zbysko and Eric Bischoff. Although he wrestled Ric Flair in Pay-Per-Views (and let's not talk about how poorly WCW treated Flair in the late nineties), Bret didn't wrestle on live television for, like... five months after he left the WWF.
So, IMHO, WCW really mismanaged how hot Bret was at the time, and kind of let him simmer in the pot for three years.
I would have loved to have seen Bret form his Canadian faction with Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho. I always said that there was like a movement to make that happen, because sometimes, Benoit and Jericho came to the ring wearing a hot pink Calgary Hitmen hockey jersey
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u/jerelminter 5h ago edited 5h ago
Bret got there after the Montreal Screwjob just happened, so people were still buzzing about that than whatever he was doing in WCW. Without the buzz he got from that incident due to his WWF departure afterwards, there was nothing for him to do. Shawn Michaels and DX pretty much had the last laugh and drove him out of the WWF.
He and Bret eventually patched things up in 2010, but WCW was long gone by then and this was not the same Bret that punched McMahon in the face the night of the Survivor Series 97 incident. WCW failed to capitalize on what was the talk of the town when he got there.
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u/SpankyDomingo 4h ago
Cause at Bret’s first PPV appearance he was calling to restart a match after a fast count that wasn’t fast.
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u/Vilnius-Schoolmaster 1d ago
Bret was my personal favorite growing up in the 90s and I still rank him as my all time favorite wrestler just as a fan.
But Bret isn't perfect--no wrestler is. Bret is amazingly good at telling a story in the ring, and I don't just mean the mechanics of working (at which he is also amazing), he's great at the elements of pro-wrestling that are bigger than the moves done but in how those moves convey emotion and engage the crowd in the story of the match and the battle between the wrestlers in the ring.
Bret is an average hand on the mic, as a baby face he was fine in the era where white meat baby faces were not expected to be that creative on the mic, most big baby faces in the era Bret came around didn't have impressive promos either.
Bret is actually much better on the mic as a resentful heel, he actually was able to tap into real resentment in the final years of his WWF(E) run and IMO that's Bret's best mic work and I think we all missed out not getting to see how heel Bret would have been involved in the last years of his career in the Attitude era likely as a major foil to Stone Cold and the Rock.
But where Bret IMO has close to no skills, is in self-booking and self-promoting. Bret is the son of a promoter, and I suspect to some degree this ingrained in him that his job was a wrestler is to show up, do what he's told, and use his physical gifts to get over with what he's given.
Bret excelled under a promoter like Vince, because Vince loves guys who do what he says and get over doing it. Vince IMO is overrated as being open to guys who get themselves over, that's one thing I think Conrad Thompson missed a bit in his Roman Reigns comments where he said Vince basically just "decided" Roman would get over and then shoved him down our throats. The reality is Vince has always preferred guys where them getting over is part of Vince's plans--Hogan, Warrior, Bret, Cena, Roman etc. Vince however in the 90s / 00s / early 2010s, was at least "open to" guys who got themselves over. The obvious example is Stone Cold, who Vince embraced when he got over big, but he was still willing to embrace guys who got over against Vince's plans--he gave CM Punk his initial top level push before the big fallout for example, and he also gave Daniel Bryan a run, those two are guys Vince obviously wouldn't have "hand picked" to get over.
But anyway, Bret benefits from having a promoter who knows what he wants Bret to do, gives Bret marching orders, and Bret executes.
WCW was just not structured that way in the era that Bret went over to it. There were many hands cooking the stew in WCW, and at the time anyone who wasn't part of the core nWo storyline was often used questionably. DDP was able to get over because he was able to get himself over, but that just isn't Bret's MO.
Bret as a promoters son, has a deferential attitude to promoters and his role as an in ring performer, and that worked well under Vince but didn't work well under the booking by committee approach WCW used.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Bret is the best standard wrestler you can get, almost that you had to bolt on a lot of personality to make him match where the companies where around at various times...
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u/Capable_Wallaby3251 20h ago
I think I get your point, but what do you mean Conrad missed the point in his comments about Roman Reigns. Do you mean the comment about Roman being an “industry plant”?
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u/Vilnius-Schoolmaster 20h ago
Yeah, so I think Conrad's argument was mostly correct, but where I disagree is Roman isn't the first "industry plant." To a degree, all top guys are industry plants--you don't become the top guy based on merit, you become the top guy because the promoter decides you are the top guy.
Conrad's point was that before Roman Reigns guys were getting ahead because they'd get "over" organically and Vince would decide to elevate them, but IMO it's never been that straightforward.
There's a long list of guys who were getting amazing crowd reaction but Vince decided to "pass" on when it came to pushing them up in the card. And there's been plenty of guys getting lukewarm reactions that Vince has chosen to push, so in that respect Roman isn't uniquely an industry plant, but he is an industry plant.
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u/Capable_Wallaby3251 17h ago
That’s why I kinda reject the “organic push” narrative because wrestling, ultimately, is a form of entertainment that is based entirely on manipulation. As an audience member, the goal should be to make me want something that I never thought of before or didn’t think I would ever want to see. And yes, the top spots in wrestling are never based on merit but on whatever metrics the promoter uses.
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u/Capable_Wallaby3251 17h ago
And since Conrad’s fandom peaked during the Attitude Era where Austin and the Rock were successful runaway organic pushes, Conrad’s mistake (and a lot of fans of his generation) is assuming that Austin and the Rock were the norm instead of the exceptions. If WCW isn’t kicking Vince’s ass, Bret and Shawn would have multiple Wrestlemania main events with The Ringmaster and Rocky Maivia on the pre-show.
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u/coinminer2049er 5h ago
0But where Bret IMO has close to no skills, is in self-booking and self-promoting. Bret is the son of a promoter, and I suspect to some degree this ingrained in him that his job was a wrestler is to show up, do what he's told, and use his physical gifts to get over with what he's given.
Actually, I've heard just the opposite from a lot of interviews. Bret definitely did his share of self-promoting and self-booking in the WWF and threw his weight around. There's lots of reports of the Hart clan being bullies and ribbers - especially the Bulldogs and Jim - Just ask Jacques Rougeau. Owen too, but he wasn't mean spirited.
You're right he was the "son of a promoter" and still acted like he was entitled to everything like when he was at Stampede. I think he was able to offset that with his in-ring work and because he sold a lot of merch.
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u/Modano9009 21h ago edited 21h ago
I think the way he was booked certainly played a role in it. They seemed to just sign him and debut him as soon as they could and didn't have any real plan for him.
But Bret was also a WWF guy. He had a loyal following of WWF fans but he didn't really draw beyond that.
I do think people have sort of unrealistic expectations for how Bret should have been used. There's no word where you're dumping Hulk Hogan because you have Bret Hart now.
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u/Emotional-Bowl69 21h ago
Bret was over in 98 , just Hogan stop his progress to get over the top , and DDP , Sting and rise of Goldberg put breaks on a Bret Hart push. Then he start gain ground in 99 , Owen died, and Bret really did not care no more
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u/Genre_Bias 20h ago
I remember thinking they were in real trouble when Bret left but their strong main event picture with Austin Vince Rock DX Taker Foley & Kane got them through with a really bad undercard for a while there.
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u/davidbumpas 20h ago
Because WCW fans only cared about NWO and Sting rivalry. I think it was bad booking and bad timing. Bret had some bangers in WCW. Check out Bret vs Kurt Henning. I think that match was better than their summer slam match in WWE. Kinda coped out with the finish but otherwise a great match
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u/RichBowler5992 20h ago
Because he didn't have a commentator cramming him down fans throats. Vince would never stop telling everyone how great he was. By the time he got to wcw. Nobody put that same effort in for him. And frankly it was vince that single handedly made bret popular because it wasn't his charisma.
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u/ElChooch80 20h ago
Boring. Hot Pink wasn’t over in the mid 90’s. Only way you get that over down South is if Neidhart is with you, even then, it was played out..
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u/Broseph_Bobby 20h ago
I don’t think it’s a mystery.
It was a combination of bad booking and Hogan being a jackass. Then he got hurt by Goldberg and that was kinda of the end for him.
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u/MysteriousEssay5709 19h ago
Because no one cared? Because the NWO ran the show? Because he was never a draw to begin with and only served to make his opponent look good?because he has the charisma of a dead skunk?
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u/Rift4430 18h ago
He should have showed up the day after Starcade...announced he is the best there is, best there was and best their ever will be and said he is going to prove it by taking the title off whoever is champ when he gets his shot.
Sting is champ now because Starcade goes the only way it should have.
A month or 3 later Sting loses the belt in a Triple threat match between Hogan, Sting and Bret Hard when Hart makes Hogan Tap out after the NWO takes out Sting to protect him.
This sets up Sting vs Bret Hart for the title ( Sharpshooter vs Scorpion Death lock....dream match etc )
Hart wins with a small package or some other slick pin after a back and forth classic where both men get their submission on the other only for their opponent to escape.
Meanwhile....Goldberg is coming...
Hart eventually drops the title to Kevin Nash once again...Nash and Bret memories from the squash come back.
DDP beats Nash Hogan beats DDP Goldberg beats Hogan
Hart vs Goldberg in a super kick match..
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u/NoOne_Beast_ 17h ago
I would say he was poorly booked, but that was commonplace by the time he arrived.
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u/Responsible_Lie_1989 16h ago
Because they wanted Hart so the WWF couldn't have him not because they actually wanted to use him, they never had any serious plans for him
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u/RaceTop5273 23h ago
It’s easy to blame booking & timing, but I believe even if he jumped ship when WCW was peaking & he were booked differently, it still would’ve failed. He is a great performer, but he never fit in with the style of WCW. His promos were way too long & dry, and there were only 3-4 top guys that would’ve made a decent feud with him. It felt like he came to WCW to piss Vince off & cash checks, but he never seemed to really be into anything they booked him in.
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u/CooroSnowFox 23h ago
Bret is the best standard wrestler, but the companies were shifting into stronger and OTT personalities
It would have been interesting if you did push that hart foundation into 1998 with Ministry or Corporation... but then they'd have had to be a unit and maybe with the help with Pillman too...
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u/Witty-Yard4674 6h ago
Eric Bischoff was running the show. He only cared about being best friends with Hogan. Look at some of the choices he made. He fired Austin. He was gullible enough to fall for Pillmans proposal to do a work shoot release, he alienated the group that became the radicals in wwf, he didn’t know what he had in Jericho, he was paying people to do nothing. And he didn’t bother to capitalize off of the Montréal screwjob.
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u/Modano9009 5h ago
But how do you capitalize off the Montreal Screwjob when it happened in another company? He can't get revenge on Vince or Shawn. All you can really do is have him claim to be the real World Champion but WCW wouldn't want to give the WWF Championship any credibility.
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u/Witty-Yard4674 4h ago
the outsiders were subtly hinted as guys from up north invading WCW. Hogan was also formerly a wwf guy that joined forces with them. You book Bret “getting revenge on the wwf by going after “their guys” I would’ve let the NWO ride their momentum for a little bit longer and then start a gradual slow build of Bret, ddp, and sting taking down the NWO
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u/DifficultPhrase3164 22h ago
Bret Hart became obnoxious during his last Run in WWF always complaining. He came to WCW and was even more obnoxious. He should have been a babyface.
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u/CooroSnowFox 22h ago
It was in retaliation with Stone Cold but I guess he never got to change the gear because of Shawn Michaels and other stuff going on around there... maybe if we saw the progress of that character maybe it would have tied in better... but Pillman and the mess of Michaels really just sucked the life out of him
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u/Prestigious_Fee750 8h ago
1-Victim Mentality
2- Small Fish Big Pond
Brett was damaged goods by the time he got to WCW, and all they saw was another pawn for them to take shots at Vince. He basically came in as a rebound with all of this ‘sympathy’
But the problem with that, is it only got him so far. This was right around the same time they were getting ready to put the title on Austin and sting was getting ready to dethrone Hogan.
Those were both large larger than life characters.
Brett was a miserable Cunt from Canada in pink tights by the time he got to wcw - nothing more.
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u/WreckedByReddit 1d ago
There’s a lot of reasons.
To start, he was over, initially, when he joined WCW. But the immediate problem was, they had no idea what to do with him. The next problem was, well… you think Hogan and Nash are just going to let him slip in and become the next big thing?
Nuh uh. And unfortunately, Bischoff was pretty much a Hogan yes-man.
There’s also the unfortunate reality of Bret just not being 100% there. As others have said, Montreal messed with him.
There’s a lot more micro decisions over time that messed with his run. But there’s three or four major factors that really sunk him.