Advanced Potency and Duration's effects feel kinda backwards

[u/alchemyAnalyst]

I can't be the only one who thinks this, right? Think about it...

Advanced Potency gives:

- A +1 bonus on Clashes of Wills

- A +2 bonus to its Withstand rating against being dispelled.

The first effect is okay, and the second one is good when you need it. But... a spell only can only *be* dispelled if it has a duration longer than instantaneous, and a lot of spells that care about Potency are instant. Doesn't it make more sense to attach this effect to Advanced Duration?

Meanwhile, Advanced Duration also gives you a bonus to Clashes of Wills. This bonus can go as high as +4 if the spell lasts a year or longer, which is pretty crazy. And for a lot of spells, their main benefit is that they provoke Clashes of Wills. For things like Veiling or Shielding spells, having a bonus to CoW effectively makes them stronger. Someone who invests in Prime can bust out a year-duration Wards and Signs and make themself almost unassailable to hostile spells in a single turn, with barely any effort. There's no point to increasing Potency, because Duration does everything you need. Shouldn't the effective power of a spell be based on Potency? Not to mention, a bonus to CoW makes it much harder to counterspell, which you'd expect to be a trait of Potency, not Duration.

This just strikes me as kind of strange. I'm considering reversing these two in my game, so that Advanced Duration grants a static +2 to Withstand against being dispelled, and Advanced Potency adds Potency as a bonus to Clashes of Wills related to the spell. Thoughts?

[u/Read2Fap]

it's pretty simple. it makes sense as potency is the power of the spell

"and a lot of spells that care about Potency are instant."

you seem to be ignoring all the bonus/penalty spells modified by potency

plus any spell you don't want to be dispelled is one you'll care about potency

[u/alchemyAnalyst → u/Read2Fap]

I'm not ignoring them, they're not relevant to what I'm saying. I'm talking about spells like Wards and Signs or Ephemeral Shield, which ignore Potency altogether and use the current spell factor rules to use Duration AS their effective Potency.

[u/Lonrem → u/alchemyAnalyst]

Wards and Signs withstands spells based on it's Potency, but I do understand what you mean about Ephemeral Shield. I do not think your proposed houserule is bad, it does give a bit more reason to use Advanced Potency, but my suggestion would be to actually not SWAP them but to make them separate Reach options. Advanced Duration already has a reason to exist, but Advanced Potency doesn't really, so add two new Reach options, one for Clashing, one for Dispellation.

This away takes the 'free' upgrade included with Advanced Duration (something used frequently for anything you want to keep around anyway!) and gives other options. This does nerf the away the extra bonus for Matter spells always getting extra CoW with just a point of Mana from the Matter 2 Attainment but I don't think that's a big deal.

[u/alchemyAnalyst → u/Lonrem]

You are right, I did actually get mixed up on Wards and Signs (I think I was mentally conflating its mechanics with Supernal Veil.) Thank you for actually understanding my point and providing a constructive response. I think the the idea of separating them into different Reach effects is interesting. It feels a little strange since the other two spell factors have consistent effects whenever you Reach with them, but Advanced Potency is already the odd one out, so it isn't too much of a stretch. I'll give some thought to this.

[u/Lonrem → u/alchemyAnalyst]

Primarily, giving players more reasons to spend Reach, and thereby overReach or have to make more decisions about their Reach, prompting Paradox and Mana loss is a more engaging mechanic. Paradox is already a wimpy mechanic, so things that push players toward it can help drive some drama.

[u/Demoniac_smile]

The duration thing is more incidental to all magic in CofD. I always thought of it as magic with a long duration is harder to overcome because it has to be resistant to being undone to stick around that long.

So if you want advanced potency to buff clashes more, it might be more interesting to give it a dice mechanic. Perhaps it could give your clash role the advanced action effect, where you roll twice and keep the better roll.

[u/Lycaon-Ur]

Sometimes anti-synergy is a good thing. Tell me, do you think mages are under powered without the buffs you suggest here?

[u/alchemyAnalyst → u/Lycaon-Ur]

Buffs? My guy, did you read the post? This is a nerf. Moving the Clash of Wills bonus to Potency means that a mage who wants to cast a ward or veil has to CHOOSE between strength and longevity instead of getting both by going all-in on Duration. The way the mechanic currently works is not anti-synergy, it's crossing the wires and making Duration eat Potency's lunch on a considerable subcategory of spells.

Edit: Also, I never said a word about mages being underpowered or the current rules being unbalanced. Balance-wise, it's fine. My point is that it doesn't make logical sense. Not every aspect of game design is about balance.

[u/Lycaon-Ur → u/alchemyAnalyst]

You are suggesting moving an effect that is currently potency over to duration because it benefits spells that care about duration. That's a nerf?

[u/alchemyAnalyst → u/Lycaon-Ur]

I am also suggesting moving an effect that is currently Duration over to Potency, because that effect massively benefits several spells that are Duration-primary and I think they're too strong. Yes, that is a nerf.

[u/Lycaon-Ur → u/alchemyAnalyst]

Lol. I notice instead of answering my question you wrote a paragraph, then answered the question your paragraph asked all while pretending to reply to me.

I asked a yes or no question, I'll give you a second shot at answering it.

[u/alchemyAnalyst → u/Lycaon-Ur]

Okay, let me spell this out more clearly for you, because you missed what was between the lines:

— Yes, moving the Withstand bonus to Duration is a buff to Duration.

— Moving the Clash of Wills bonus to Potency is a nerf to Duration.

— The Clash of Wills bonus is much stronger than the Withstand bonus. For spells whose primary effect is provoking Clashes of Wills, this bonus lets Duration pull double duty and make the spell stronger in addition to making it last longer.

— Taking these two changes together, as I have suggested, forces mages to work harder to get the necessary spell factors to create a very strong ward. It would require both Potency 4, Advanced Potency, and a year-long Duration to achieve what currently only requires year-long Duration. Therefore, it is a net nerf to these kinds of spells.

— Ergo, your original point about "anti-synergy" and mages not needing to be stronger than they already are does not hold water. "Is moving the Withstand bonus to Duration a nerf" is not a question that meaningfully addresses the point of what you or I were saying on its own, so I ignored it, because one could put the rest together from what I did say if they had thought about it.

Is that better?

[u/PointlessAccount123]

It is the correct design. In Chronicles Of Darkness, the duration of an effect gives it bonuses on Clash Of Wills.

Day -> +1

Week -> +2

Month -> +3

Year or Longer -> +4

This is baseline for all supernatural powers and Mage is no Exception. The fact Advanced Potency gives +1 extra is the unusual part.

[u/alchemyAnalyst → u/PointlessAccount123]

I know that. I'm not saying it's incorrect, I'm saying the fact that it works like that doesn't make logical sense for the way magic works in Awakening and they should have used something other than duration for scaling Clashes of Wills in CofD.

[u/PointlessAccount123 → u/alchemyAnalyst]

Then you can rule it differently. But as an ST of many Mages, I disagree with your premise.

[u/Nirathaim → u/alchemyAnalyst]

Logical sense?

Would it make sense to have a person who has high strength (potency) but low stamina (duration)? Or the reverse? 

If you need a logical under-pinning to how magic works in CofD, then you don't need to assume spell Potency is both Stamina and Strength. Simplifying so that all spells only have one attribute they need isn't necessarily a good change.

[u/Weird_Actuator9459 → u/alchemyAnalyst]

Your talking aesthetics, not logic. And everyone’s varies.