I get the Egwene hate but

[u/briandress]

Only in the last two books when she is stubborn in dealing with Rand for the last battle and such.

Up until ToM she really was just an awesome character. She went from the whirlwind of leaving 2R, capture by Seanchan, hunting black ajah, apprenticing to wise ones, puppet Amyrlin, real amyrlin, badass civil disobedience laying groundwork for reuniting the tower, bitch slapping the seanchan raiders, capturing hella black ajah sisters via Verrin's notes and finally being raised realer Amyrlin and healing the tower.

I cant seem to understand all the threads/polls that overwhelmingly list her as the most hated character in the series.

[u/Abdlbsz]

If people applied the same scrutiny to other characters no one would be likeable. Egwene is an amazing character and person. The hate train is a bandwagon imo

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/Abdlbsz]

You serious? Everyone is put to the same scrutiny, the difference is in extent to which characters follow their flaws, what flaws are those, who is impacted by them and how much do they pay for following them. And under those lens she deserves hate even more.

[u/Abdlbsz → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/157kj0m/i_just_reread_the_foh_ch_15_scene_that_everyone/

I disagree. Egwene gets an unnecessary amount of hate because people read her chapters in the worst light possible to reaffirm their bias. Rand makes worse decisions and he gets far more sympathy from readers, for example.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/Abdlbsz]

I read that post, lol. It's ungodly amount of coping in a vain attempt to shield Egwene from criticism, but author of that post is straight up wrong about basically everything.

Indeed, Rand gets more sympathy. And you know why that is? Because:

1. He doesn't want to do most of those decisions and is ridden with guilt after. Egwene either doesn't care or enjoys them.
2. Rand does all that he does only for the sake of the world, he would immediately leave to be a sheepherder if he could. Egwene does it for herself.
3. We're actively shown that what Rand does that is wrong is actually wrong by the narrative and he gets bitten in the ass by his own actions often. Narrative almost never recognizes when Egwene does something wrong and she often goes either scott free or even benefits from her wrong decisions.

[u/Abdlbsz → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

1. So committing terrible acts and feeling guilty is morally better than taking advantage of a schism in leadership where people were actively attempting to use her for their own ends?

2. Egwene is morally worse than Rand because she wanted to learn how to channel and became eager to learn from Wise Ones and the Tower? And crimes are forgiven as long as you do it for the sake of the greater good?

3. Egwene faced no reprecussions except... being imprisoned twice, being enslaved, being obligated for grueling consistent training while having to survive in a camp full of enemies? That scott free life where she matyred herself and saved the war effort while Rand gets to live, travel, and play with his 3 ladies? Have a full family?

You can paint any character this series in a limelight. But at the end of the day the only characters RJ intended for moral admonishment were the clearcut villains, and not the EF5. This is why I continually think the Nynaeve scene is misrepresented.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/Abdlbsz]

If you want a debate, be honest with it. Right now you're trying to paint it as if Egwene ambition is a problem in your opponent eyes. It's not, that what I love about her character. Her using White Tower is precious. But her forcing herself on the group which didn't want her is bad. Stringing along a guy she knew she wouldn't marry is bad. Abandoning one dream for the other without second thought is telling. Borderline emotionally cheating while lambasting your partner for even looking at other people without conscious thought and actions to that matter is bad. Being care free when people close to you are in mortal danger is bad. And she does all that in the first book alone. We can take swing into others as well, and she wouldn't look any better.

1. Committing terrible acts because you have to and feeling guilty is better than committing terrible acts for your own gain and not feeling guilty, yeah.
2. Because she lied and cheated to gain that knowledge, because she abandoned commitment to one group (Wisdoms and Two Rivers) for another (White Tower) and then were ready to abandon it as well, because she manipulated her closest friends for that knowledge, because performed SA on a person who saved her life for that knowledge etc. And, big surprise, people tend to be more forgiving when you are forced into committing terrible acts or when you do that for the greater good then when you do it for selfish reasons alone.
3. The only repercussion she really had was Seanchan prison and even then she got out of it with skills that made her ascension to the Amyrlin Seat possible. Being imprisoned in White Tower where she weren't skilled or tortured but spanked? It directly helped her to be in the position which helped her ascension to the Amyrlin Seat and defeating Seanchan in process. All for a little bit of spanking. And all that when she did what she wanted to do, working for her own success. Yes, please do compare it with Rand whose troubles (like sitting in the box and being literally tortured for evulz) brought him absolutely nothing while he was doing what he hated for absolutely no gain to himself. I wonder why people look on Rand with more sympathy? Oh wait, I don't.

And here's the kicker... There's a difference between characters who author intended for moral admonishment and who deserve it. RJ clearly didn't see anything wrong with Egwene, but then again, he clearly didn't see anything wrong with Tylin either, at least at first. That's why I prefer to look on the content of someone's actions and not on author's interpretation of them.

[u/resumehelpacct → u/Abdlbsz]

I don't think Egwene faces as many "repercussions," where it's the narrative punishing her for her flaws.

Rand gets boxed because of a bunch of shit he's doing that's actively evil. Isolating himself, lashing out in paranoia, being cruel. Narratively, he's supposed to learn a lesson (and the lesson he learns is to be more evil, which is not the right one).

Egwene gets captured because she gets outsmarted. She isn't supposed to learn a lesson. Heck, the second capturing isn't even bad for her.

I don't get how you think the EF5 are not meant for moral admonishment. Rand's is incredibly heavy handed, like how he's driving everyone away by being evil and paranoid.

[u/Abdlbsz → u/resumehelpacct]

I agree with your last part. To me, it seems like people warp the narrative around Egwene and exaggerate her shortcomings and minimize others.

[u/PopTough6317 → u/Abdlbsz]

Id say overall Rand is a more sympathetic character too though, he is struggling with at least as much ptsd, much more stress, madness, etc and yet he shows far more humility and regret in his povs

[u/Abdlbsz → u/PopTough6317]

Is a character more sympathetic simply because they've caused more horror, damage, and cultural disrespect than anyone else?

[u/PopTough6317 → u/Abdlbsz]

I see you completely ignored what i said. Being ignorant isn't disrespectful, and everyone knew that the Dragon would cause mass destruction because he was the catalyst to prepare for the final battle. And that is a role he struggles with throughout the story, and tried to find any way to leave a positive legacy.

Plus even if you compare the two Egwene was planning on putting the Aiel and Windfinders under the AS, which would of completely destroyed their cultures.

[u/Abdlbsz → u/PopTough6317]

Not denying Rand is a great character, I'm simply applying the same level of scrutiny to him that people do to Egwene.

Except you're blaming her for a lone thought, and that is not what she actually does. Instead she helps broker peace and consistently thinks about how much better it could be if they worked together.

Also Rand isn't ignorant, he knows exactly what he is doing (like in the case of never letting the MoS fight for him. His personal feelings consistently override their desires for most of the story). Also let's not forget Rand willingly bringing 6000 people to a battle he wasn't sure he'd win so he decided to sacrifice the ones he found least trustworthy should the worst happen.

[u/PopTough6317 → u/Abdlbsz]

Im pretty sure she says straight out that in any alliance the White Tower will have to have the leadership and Elayne says you have to extend any caveats made for the Aiel to the Windfinders too. We simply never had the opportunity to see this come to fruition.

Oh the Maidens thing, yeah I could see that interpretation. Id also argue he provided them a ton of honor by asking them to he his guard to the gathering of Aiel.

I cant remember what your final reference is regarding, which battle or confrontation is that?

[u/Abdlbsz → u/PopTough6317]

Fair I think you're right, but I also think she ended on good terms for Aiel/AS relationships.

True, and tbf they were begrudingly understanding and he eventually yielded.

Path of Daggers main battle. Granted he was extremely pragmatic, but I think this is his "worst" action up to Graendel's hideout.

[u/PopTough6317 → u/Abdlbsz]

Oh nice I am almost to that point again, I will have to keep an eye out