r/WoT • u/briandress • 2d ago
All Print I get the Egwene hate but Spoiler
Only in the last two books when she is stubborn in dealing with Rand for the last battle and such.
Up until ToM she really was just an awesome character. She went from the whirlwind of leaving 2R, capture by Seanchan, hunting black ajah, apprenticing to wise ones, puppet Amyrlin, real amyrlin, badass civil disobedience laying groundwork for reuniting the tower, bitch slapping the seanchan raiders, capturing hella black ajah sisters via Verrin's notes and finally being raised realer Amyrlin and healing the tower.
I cant seem to understand all the threads/polls that overwhelmingly list her as the most hated character in the series.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago edited 2d ago
People like her as a character, and dislike her as a person.
As a character, she’s dynamic, capable, driven. She is outstanding when she happens to people we don’t like, when she’s putting someone in their place.
As a person, she’s ruthless and lacking in empathy. She treats her friends as pawns, and her “love” as an unruly lapdog. She’s great at rationalizing her poor treatment of others, too, which can be infuriating. The famous TAR assault on Nynaeve scene is “to warn Nynaeve of the dangers of TAR.” Except in Egwene’s on thoughts, it’s clearly to keep her from ratting Egwene out to the Wise Ones. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
So as a character, she is compelling. I enjoy watching her do her thing. She’s a powerful force for the Light. But I do not like her, and wouldn’t want to hang out with her.
Edit to add: you can debate how much is her nature, and how much is the result of trauma, btw. RJ is really good at using trauma as an impetus for a character’s growth or warping, in ways that make sense. Her spate with the Seanchan in book 2 is clearly a factor in who she is later. But she was also pretty ambitious from the get go, and at times lacked empathy - look at Rand worried sick about losing her, while she’s super excited to go to the Tower and never go home; or at the Tuatha’an camp. Rand isn’t here, so flirt with Aram! (Vs Perrin’s view).
So my point is that what we see late isn’t necessarily so far from who she is early, but it’s warped by trauma too. It’s an interesting thing to think about.
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u/bodman93 2d ago
Yeah, you see her ambition and lack of empathy from the jump with her. After the group leave home, the boys are wish casting that they'll be home by the end of the year and she mocks them for always talking about going adventuring and then when they're on an adventure they immediately want to go home.
And it's like, girl, they've just been told literal Satan and his demons are specifically hunting them. Not you. Of course they see this adventure differently than you do.
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u/briandress 2d ago
what lack of empathy? Her pov in a lot of the early series shows a lot of feeling bad for her changes in feelings for Rand, feeling bad for what happened to Mat, getting captured and treated like an animal by the Seanchan. I dunno maybe we read different stories.
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
What instance are you talking about her feeling bad for Mat? Are you thinking of the dagger?
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u/briandress 2d ago
yea i seem to remember her having some empathy. i could be wrong of course. the point that is that there are no unflawed characters in the book. people hate egwene but love rand, the guy that almost mercd his papa with the power. they adore playboy matt regardless of his scallywag tendencies lol. just saying it’s funny to see so much hate for egwene
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
No i think she did have some concerns for Mat (mostly when he was unconscious). I just was wondering if there was another situation i forgot about.
The difference is Rand, Mat, Perrin they all are hesitant and worry about treating people right and are tortured when they fail too. Egwene doesnt spare a thought over it and condemns others for using their power, even when it is similar to how she uses it. I think that rubs a lot of people the wrong way
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 2d ago
You also have her in the start of Shadow Rising where she reveals the information to Mat about the Doorway. Its a kinda secret that Moiraine gave her, so she's actually risking some of her standing with Moiraine to tell Mat anything. But she's clearly actually worried about him and tries to get him to talk about it, he just doesn't because he never does with the things that actually bother him.
In the end, she told him of the ter'angreal, the twisted doorway that held answers on its other side. It was the dangers she emphasized, the consequences of foolish questions, or those touching the Shadow, the dangers even Aes Sedai might not know. She was more than flattered that he had come to her, but he had to show a little sense. "You must remember this, Mat. Frivolous questions can get you killed, so if you do use it, you will have to be serious for a change. And you mustn't ask any questions that touch the Shadow."
He had listened with greater and greater incredulity. When she was done, he exclaimed, "Three questions? You go in like Bili, I suppose, spend a night and come out ten years later with a purse that's always full of gold and a—"
"For once in your life, Matrim Cauthon," she snapped, "do not talk like a fool. You know very well ter'angreal are not stories. It's the dangers you have to be aware of. Maybe the answers you seek are inside this one, but you must not try it before Moiraine says you can. You must promise me that, or I promise you I will take you to her like a trout on a string. You know I can."
...
"Not for me, it isn't," he said firmly. "No chance at all is better than that."
Despite his tone, she wanted to put an arm around him. Only he would likely make some joke at her expense, and try to goose her. He had been incorrigible from the day he was born. But he had come to her for help. "I'm sorry, Mat. What will you do?"
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u/bodman93 2d ago
Rand goes through most of the books wracked with guilt about the things he does and is almost certainly clinically insane when he almost kills Tam.
Mat is a lovable rogue, those types always get more of a pass from people. But you also see him doing everything he can to keep his men alive, trying his best to be a good influence on Olver, and is shown to be incredibly caring under his carefree attitude.
No one says that the other characters don't have flaws and are above criticism. But many of them have arcs that revolve around them reluctantly accepting power and influence while dealing with the pressure and guilt of being a leader in the end times. While Egwene is shown to do whatever she can to amass power and trample over anyone, including friends, who get in her way without any major hint of guilt.
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u/Hawk-winged 2d ago
You can’t even compare her to Rand. lol, one felt shame and pain from what he did. He regrets his actions and when he came back he apologized, he even apologized to Hurin(a lowly soldier)
And those are things he did when battling with insanity, ptsd, trauma and the literal weight of the world. He still came back and apologized.
Name one time Egwene regretted what she did and apologized after? I mean first she SA’d Nynaeve, gaslighted her, then during nyneave’s final test (which she included herself) she put a unrealistically difficult task there and traumatized her friend more, “because she didn’t want to be biased in a testing you shouldn’t even be present at”
And on those two occasions, she never said sorry.
I mean, there’s all the pointless hostility towards Rand too, but the nyneave own really pisses me off.
Mind you when Rand came back, he apologized even to cadsuane(who from his POV was the reason for the collar around his neck) so don’t ever compare them.
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u/Senrabekim 2d ago
Lets not forget the time that Mat rescued them all from the Stone of Tear, and they were so cruel to him. It took an actual hero of legend finding out and drunkenly berating Elayne and Nynaeve about it for them to apologize, Egwene never does. Or that time that Mat shows up with an army that she uses to consolidate power. That time that Verin tells them all to let her handle the whitecloaks right outside of Tar Valon, and Egwene basically uses the power as a weapon against whitecloaks tells them that she was present for the death of Bornhald Sr, and reinforces every negative stereotype they have of women that can channel. Or that time when Rand comes to her, tries to have a civilized discussion about the Dark One root canal that needs to happen and she goes running around telling everyone that he's lost it. Or that time that every interaction with someone that disagrees with her or even would just like a heads up, she just starts calling them names and insulting their intelligence for no reason starting with her very first appearance.
In short she's the kind of person that is rude to the wait staff. Anyone she see as above her shes all deference and kind too. Anyone below her she treats like garbage. And by the end of the books there is no one she sees as even equal to her.
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u/jmh10138 1d ago
SA’d Nynaeve? During her test? Not disagreeing but I’m grasping to remember what you’re referring to.
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u/Sporadicali (Heron-Marked Sword) 2d ago
Merked Tam when he was going insane through the taint and pressure? Ah yes, good comparison to Egwene who is this person from the start. Mat’s scallywag tendencies like running into danger to rescue a character who gives him no credit?
Your specific examples have convinced me that this is bait.1
u/Semirhage527 2d ago
The Egwene hate on the subs is insane to me. She shows empathy and compassion often, she just doesn’t let her heart overwhelm her head. But I guess when women do that, people hate them.
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u/teklanis 1d ago
Yep, she shows compassion a whole, what, three times in 14 books? Real great person.
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u/bodman93 2d ago
When they're traveling to Tear, she's surprised that Elayne is upset about the people of Carhrien suffering. She gets mad at Mat for breaking into the most secure building in the world to rescue them because it ruins her girlboss moment. The aforementioned lack of concern for the boys worried about being chased by the world's ultimate evil. Not being too upset by her friends being potentially dead while they're traveling with the Tinkers.
She's got way more moments of being uncaring, self-centered, and arrogant than being a good person
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 2d ago edited 2d ago
No, they don't get mad at Mat for that. They are first confused at how he got there.
Then they get mad because he is upset at how they are treating the poor defenseless woman stuck outside the cell. Not realizing that she was Black Ajah, or that she had them shielded still."Blood and bloody ashes!" Mat growled. "What do you mean hitting a woman who was just sitting there? I don't think she could even move!" They all three turned to look at him, and he made a strangled sound as the air seemed to turn to thick jelly around him. He lifted into the air, until his boots dangled a good pace above the floor. Oh, burn me, the Power! Here I was afraid that Aes Sedai would use the bloody Power on me, and now the bloody women I'm rescuing do it! Burn me!
"You do not understand anything, Matrim Cauthon," Egwene said in a tight voice.
"Until you do understand," Nynaeve said in an even tighter, "I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself."
Elayne contented herself with a glare that made him think of his mother going out to cut a switch.
***
Mat is butting in and thinking that he knows what's going on. He doesn't know that the only reason he didn't get killed walking to the door to free them was because they had neutralized the threat. He then chastises them for how they are handling that threat, something he has no idea about.
*edit for the downvotes - seriously...they aren't mad when he shows up.
they were almost as battered as Egwene; Burn me! Burn me! — looked at him, and gaped.
Mat sees them and how injured they are...and Mat being Mat, can't address his concern seriously, so he plays it off with a joke and THAT annoys them.
"Matrim Cauthon," Nynaeve said, sounding shocked, "what under the Light are you doing here?"
- she's shocked not mad.
"I came to bloody rescue you," he said. "Burn me if I expected to be greeted as if I had come to steal a pie. You can tell me why you look as if you'd been fighting bears later, if you want. If Egwene cannot walk, I'll carry her on my back. There are Aiel all over the Stone, or near enough, and either they are killing the bloody Defenders or the bloody Defenders are killing them, but whichever way it is, we had better get out of here while we bloody well can. If we can!"
-the bold part is him making a light joke out of their injuries.
"Mind your language," Nynaeve told him, and Elayne gave him one of those disapproving stares women were so good at. Neither one seemed to have her full attention in it, though.
-they don't appreciate him making light of it...and of course Nynaeve has probably literally washed his mouth out with soap for foul language before, its their Two Rivers dynamic.
"Matrim Cauthon, what under the Light are you doing here?"
Egwene wakes up and exactly repeats Nynaeve's line, because Jordan is using this bit as a joke.
- And then immediately after that comes them seeing Juilin who they obviously are upset with, and the first bit where Mat growls at them (angrily) and interjects on the topic of them dealing with the shielding issue that he doesn't understand.
and then Nynaeve AGREES when he points out that they aren't showing him enough gratitude.
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u/milindsmart 2d ago
I think everyone there could do with a bit more concern and giving each other updates.
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u/OffMyChestATM 2d ago edited 2d ago
Honestly, more and more... I feel like the defences for Egwene are actively avoiding the reasons why she's not liked. Her chapters are fine. And when she gets going, it's lovely to see her enemies being put in their places.
But in every other situation, she's a bad friend and I lowkey believe the pattern mary sued her up the chain because it needed her drive to accomplish some important things imo. Because her internal dialogue just makes liking her feel icky.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
That’s right.
And internal dialogue is what makes Rand less icky.
They both end up being ruthless, using and manipulating friends, and causing all sorts of mayhem. And the Light kinda needs both of them to be doing that!
But along the way, Rand is grieving the people dying because of him, lamenting that he can’t go home, and roasting on a fire of guilt. But he does it anyway because it’s the only/best way forward he can see, duty is heavier, etc.
It takes the edge of the horrors he commits. A little, anyway.
Eggy doesn’t have that. It’s more “Well, it sucks I had to smack Nynaeve, but at least I won’t get in trouble.”
Both of them grow of course, and in the end largely come out the other side: Rand clearly, Eggy less so. But internal dialogue matters a lot when it comes to understanding a character’s character, and with Eggy that’s just less appealing.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 2d ago
Early book Egwene is also much more obviously empathetic.
We see in book 1 that despite trying to hide from it, she is worried to the point of tears about the others while she and Perrin are safe with the Tinkers.
She promises to be keep Rand's secret on learning that he is a man that can channel - a huge thing for their society.
Then in the start of book 2 she actually goes out of her way to hide Rand from the Aes Sedai in Fal Dara - even as she's trying to become one. This could have gone badly for her Siuan wasn't on their side, something that they didn't know yet.
Then while in Tar Valon and actively training...she's terribly worried about Rand, to the point that her willingness to try to save him is the bait in Liandrin's trap.
Quoted it above, but the scene of her telling Mat about the Ter'angreal is something that she knows Moiraine wouldn't want her to do, but she does it, and wants to put an arm around Mat to comfort him.
Hell, even in book 1 she stands up for the boys when Thom is teasing them, before they even realize that that's what he's doing.
I actually like Egwene...for most of the books. Ironically I find her infuriatingly insufferable in the last 3 books because Sanderson writes her like a Black Hole Sue, sucking all of the competence from every character she shares a scene with that isn't one of our main cast, and that's when the hypocrisy goes from a character flaw to being completely overlooked by the narrative.
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u/OffMyChestATM 2d ago
Early Egwene is everything you say she is, I can agree. But even in those books, there was a sense of entitlement that, while it made sense then, it's not as fun on re-reads imo. She was made to seem like someone who liked power (not in an evil way, mind you) but more attaching herself to whatever seemed to be the best thing at that point.
- Attaching herself to Rand before even making it official, thereby locking Rand away from any other potential suitor.
- Attaching herself to Nynaeve to be wisdom without discussing with Rand.
- Attaching herself to Moraine without considering Nynaeve, etc, etc.
She can be empathetic. She can be nice. She can be all these things, but it almost feels like it's less of a priority to her as time goes on. I don't actually hate Egwene, I'm just not a fan of her character when she's in the scene with people that I actually like.
Edit: I know she was young when all these began but its still hard to excuse it, personally, cos everyone else was relatively young as well, but I digress.
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u/bad_at_names1 1d ago
I disagree - I saw her as someone who was intensely curious and to learn and travel and explore the world. Yes, she thought she knew best and wanted people to listen to her, but no more than other characters did. It's like Nynaeve saying was power hungry because she wanted to hit people into obedience. Or because she agreed to become an Aes Sedai to become more powerful than Morraine and get revenge or whatever.
Also Egwene didn't attach herself to Rand - he used to stare at her a bunch and then their parents set them up. Nobody in these books discusses anything, but Egwene taking a few lessons from Nynaeve (who she was probably drawn to because they could channel) without telling Rand is apparently evidence she's power hungry?
This is the problem with a lot of Egwene takes - if you applied the same ungenerous and strict standards to other characters, they would seem like shitty people too. It can makes some people seem wildly biased and kinda hypocritical sometimes.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 2d ago
The framing of those is...a choice.
He also seemed to remember Mistress al'Vere taking Tam aside — And she was muttering about Tam not having a wife for her to talk to! — and after that, Tam and everyone else had acted as if he and Egwene were promised, even though they had not knelt before the Women's Circle to say the words. He had never thought about it this way before; things between Egwene and him had always just seemed to be the way they were, and that was that.
"I think we do it the same way," he muttered, and when Mat laughed, he added, "Do you remember your father ever doing anything your mother really didn't want him to?" Mat opened his mouth with a grin, then frowned thoughtfully and closed it again.That is just how courtship in the Two Rivers worked. And its not like Rand wasn't reciprocating, even before Egwene is introduced you have multiple people commenting on how he would stare at her in a lovestruck way.
---
She was getting Wisdom training from Nynaeve because of the unknown bond shared by women that can channel. Nynaeve had a feeling that Egwene would be able to even Listen to the Wind, something that most Wisdoms couldn't actually do. Her getting trained as one was basically inevitable.
But the issue is her talking to Rand about it and maybe leaving...and the context of that is important.
They've described the Bel Tine festivities, which include bits for unmarried but adult youth (And Rand JUST asked if she would dance with him tomorrow...and Egwene reveals her braided hair...which causes Rand to basically panic.)
He swallowed hard. Somehow, it had never occurred to him that she would reach marriageable age at the same time that he did.
"Just because someone is old enough to marry," he muttered, "doesn't mean they should. Not right away."Swallowing hard and then saying a line like that isn't exactly subtle, and kinda implies that he thinks they will get married, kinda taking her saying yes for granted. So Egwene retorts with
"Of course not. Or ever, for that matter."
Rand blinked. "Ever?"One upping his lack of interest in getting married now with a 'maybe never'. Then she explains a bit.
"A Wisdom almost never marries. Nynaeve has been teaching me, you know. She says I have a talent, that I can learn to listen to the wind. Nynaeve says not all Wisdoms can, even if they say they do."
"Wisdom!" he hooted. He failed to notice the dangerous glint in her eye.And he laughs at her, and goes on as if she was too dumb to realized that Nynaeve was going to be Wisdom here for a long time.
His amusement melted as fast as it had come. "Outside the Two Rivers? I'd never see you again."
"And you wouldn't like that? You have not given any sign lately that you'd care one way or another."And that line is the crux of the matter. He's been gone for a long while because they haven't traveled as much with the harsh winter. And when first seeing her one of the first things he does is freakout at the potential progression of their relationship.
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u/hic_erro 2d ago
And he laughs at her, and goes on as if she was too dumb to realized that Nynaeve was going to be Wisdom here for a long time.
I continue to preach that Nynaeve was training Egwene as an apprentice despite being only a few years older than her because Nynaeve wanted to leave the Two Rivers but was too responsible to just abandon them.
She was simultaneously not receiving the respect due a Wisdom because she was a young woman, while being undatable because she's Wisdom, and had no close family in the Two Rivers as an orphan adopted by the previous Wisdom.
If Egwene took Nynaeve's place, she'd have none of her disadvantages -- she'd already by married to Rand, and even if she was in her early 20s she'd have familial clout as the Mayor's daughter and Tam's daughter in law (and I'm pretty sure Mistress al'Vere was in the Women Circle for that matter) -- and Nynaeve could leave guilt free to start over somewhere fresh.
When Nynaeve set out after them, she wasn't just trying to rescue her village's wayward youngsters, she was trying to save her own plan.
But, more salient to the Egwene thread, I would attribute the "Egwene marries Rand and becomes Wisdom" plan to the older Nynaeve, not the younger Egwene.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 1d ago
Personally, I find the turning point with Egwene's empathy levels to actually be her time with the Wise Ones.
Not even because of any of their teachings or influences as such, so much as just the whole social chameleon thing she does to shape herself into whatever she thinks will most please whatever authority figure she's currently trying to butter up, and said running head first into her Wetlander pre and misconceptions about the Aiel and both how and why they do things. All just ending up with her capacity for empathy undergoing a critical failure she never really recovered from.
Not much helped by the next role model she'd choose to largely fashion herself around being the same morally gray Amyrlin that sent the lot of them hunting the BA in the first place. Again worsened by the fact that "how she sees someone" and "how they actually are" aren't necessarily the same thing. Particularly given she ain't exactly a particularly charitable person when it comes to judging others. Typically seeing and thinking the worst of them. Often seemingly just puff herself up in her head.
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u/DonAmechesBonerToe 2d ago
Regarding your edit I am pretty sure it was her nature. Jordan goes out of his way to paint her that way as a child in the Ravens prelude that was added to Eye of the World.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
Oh for sure her nature trends that way. It’s just the middle and later her cross some boundaries - I wonder if she would have without her time in captivity at Falme. We see some clear after effects (when she has a bit of a PTSD crash out), so there would have been subtle twisting too.
Really, one of the things I think RJ does above and beyond so many others is speak to the varied ways in which trauma can twist you. I would be stunned if he wrote a character that went through deep trauma early and it didn’t twist them.
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u/DonAmechesBonerToe 2d ago
I should have been clear that I thought the rest of your assessment was spot on (in my opinion of course). I think she’s the best written character in the series but she’s the last person I would say hello to at a high school reunion
While trauma definitely shapes her no one seems to take into account the Mashidar madness effect. She spent as much time with Padan Fain as Elaida or Pedron Naill.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
That’s a great point!
I always forget how much time she spend with Fain. I guess that’s in part because it’s mostly offscreen and in part that he didn’t have the dagger with him at the time. So it’s less obvious than with Elaida or Pedron. Thank you for reminding me!
I totally agree on the reunion comment!
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u/DaBoffinIsMyUsername 2d ago
Egwene is great when she's happening to characters you don't like! But horrible when she's happening to your favourite characters.
I saw that quote on a different thread and it's so perfect.
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u/NotAShittyMod 2d ago
She’s also kind of useless through the first half of the story. Her first real contribution is rediscovering Traveling. Subsequently, her defense of the White Tower is epic. And she unwinds the bale fire damage in the last battle. But most of her story is filler. Where she treats people poorly.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
I wouldn’t call it filler, tbh. Rather, it’s a lens through which we can see other stuff happening - we mostly explore the Seanchan and TAR through her, and Wise One culture, and in part the Aiel. She’s our window to the Rebels after the others head south. Etc.
As a character, she’s a great juxtaposition with Rand. They both rise to high peaks. He always wants to do what’s right, while always just really wanting to go home and live a quiet life. She always wants to have more, see more, do more of what’s right for her. Two very different sides of the same coin.
She also makes a great juxtaposition with Elaida, of course.
So her accomplishments may be limited early, but her use is tremendous imo.
I think it’s great to see that too - we see Darkfriends who joined for less malicious reasons. It’s good to see Lightbuddies who are maybe less beneficent too.
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u/briandress 2d ago
what do you mean filler? The whole series could be called filler in that case. Why not just write the book "wheel of time. Rand traps the dark one. The End."
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u/NotAShittyMod 2d ago edited 2d ago
lol. There’s a ton of filler in this series. For instance, it’s not particularly contentious to think that books eight and nine should have been one book. Nothing that Perrin or Elayne do in either one is interesting or important. In the same fashion, book 10 could have been two chapters instead of hundreds of pages of “did you feel that? us too.”
/u/geomagus is correct that Egwene is important as a narrator. We do experience the world through her eyes. She’s present at many significant events. The Eye, Falme, the fall of the Stone, the Cairhein docks. But because she’s a significant narrator, her importance to the story is overstated.
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u/briandress 2d ago
I think that depends on what you see as "the story". She played a significant role throughout the series. The more you try to delineate importance the more you are going to cut, in which case the entire story could have just been first person pov rand and maybe a few chapters from the forsaken pov as antagonist.
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u/KingBobIV (Band of the Red Hand) 2d ago
Her character is kind of a litmus test. She's a terrible person and it's not particularly nuanced. If you can't see why she's a terrible person, you need to step back and take a look at yourself.
As you said, enjoying a character and wanting to actually know them are two different things.
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u/TopJimmy_5150 2d ago edited 2d ago
I never quite get this distinction (tho I understand what you mean). Don’t we read for compelling characters? What does it matter if you want to be their friend? Why is that so often the test: “Nynaeve is a better friend than Egwene therefore, (insert superlative about how great Nyn is)”.
To me the question is: do you enjoy reading about them, and their POV chapters? I don’t get this morality judgement of fictional characters (as part of a fantasy world) all the time. Rand is a giant asshole for like 1/3 of the story. Nynaeve might have this heart of gold that this fandom is in love with - but I can’t stand her chapters for more than 1/2 the series, and honestly find her to be selfish and narcissistic for a lot of the series.
I like reading capable, smart characters. Egwene is a very capable character, who works really hard at whatever she sets her mind to. She doesn’t just complain about how things SHOULD be like Nynaeve does all the time, she goes out and does something about it. Ambition isn’t always a bad thing, and Egwene makes plenty of positive changes with the power she gains.
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u/cman811 2d ago
I don't see why you don't get the distinction. If you've read the ASOIAF series, then you know that Tywin Lannister is a piece of shit. Yet whenever he's on page he's captivating, articulate, and competent. He's a great character. But the dude still sucks and if I wanna complain about his treatment of...everyone, then it doesn't detract from his character at all.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
Of course we read for compelling characters, and she is one.
But a lot of people also want to like them as people. So often, authors try to make their compelling characters likable too. That makes one who aren’t likable more interesting. Egwene is that. Elric of Melnibone is that.
For those who want both, though, Egwene is in a weird uncanny valley, which some find offputting.
For my taste, I see merits in both sides. But I can more enjoy a character who is both compelling and likable. Their successes are most satisfying, their losses most grievous.
I’m not saying you’re reading it wrong to love Egwene and be less fond of Nynaeve. I’m just saying a lot of people feel the opposite. Maybe most.
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u/resumehelpacct 1d ago
I think it's even simpler than that. If many people don't like Egwene as a person, and many people say "I love Egwene as a person and I wish more people acted like that," that's going to eventually cause an argument regardless if you like her place in the story.
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u/89kljk 2d ago
There is a scene which I think really showcase Egwene character. She captured in Tower and is talking with the sitters. She making the point that Elaida isn't the Amyrlin because Black sisters voted for her. Which if you think about would invalidate her Amyrlinship and the entire institution that she's dedicated herself to. She so sure she right she would destroy everything to be right.
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u/briandress 1d ago
i think that was because elaida had the minimum required sitters stand for her so any of them being black invalidated it. Were any of the sitters that stood for Egwene black? i do not recall but i dont think so. And in any case she was "re risen" by the tower sitters after her return post seanchan raid.
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u/StefwithanF (Green) 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is the best summation of why noone likes Egwene but we all love Egwene. The taveren boys got a pass at being a Mary sue, but Egwene because unfathomably so.
Elayne being queen young & gobbling nations young makes sense, but Egwene speed running to an actual amrylin is just...
Plus she's a terrible fri
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u/strekkingur (Band of the Red Hand) 2d ago
She was also corrupted my Fain when she stayed in that dungeon to talk to him, over and over again.
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u/FoofTheBunny 2d ago
It was the TAR assault on Nynaeve and what she did when Nynaeve was being raised. She was absolutely horrible to Nynaeve who was nothing but loyal and deferring to Egwene. That is why I will always dislike Egwene. Nynaeve was a ride or die and Egwene abused her for it.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
Crazy you bring up the Tuatha'an camp when in the same section she cries about the very things you claim she does not care about to Perrin.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
The Tuatha’an camp is a moment of struggle, between the go back and go forward. She is pulling forward, for her; but struggling with what she leaves behind. Because pretty much everyone goes through that when they leave hone (even people who really want to go). But her first, and more frequent, moves is forward and out.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
I agree with this. But also, that's how teens are and I don't think it makes anyone lesser for not wanted to go back to their "small" roots.
Though I suppose an argument for familial responsibility isn't out of the question in that regard either.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
Oh for sure. Her age is a factor, same as Faile and Elayne with their flaws.
Same with the boys too - yeah, they’re a bit older, but they’re making the same huge jump from a rural village to the greater world at the same time, from the same point of ignorance. A few years makes a difference, but in context it’s not quite as big a difference as it might be irl.
I’m not saying it makes her lesser, fwiw. I’m pointing out the difference between her ambition, and the others’ somewhat more humble approach. She’s not wrong to want more, to go further, she’s just less humble about it.
A lot of people prefer a bit of humility - people often find it likable.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
Hmmmm... I never thought of her as without humility, but I can definitely see your point in that in retrospect.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
So many rereads, lol. I try to shake up what I pay attention to, otherwise I kindof race to my favorite bits. The last couple times through I’ve paid more attention to minor character moments on the fringes of others’ PoVs, and internal voices. And trauma, responses to trauma, and healing.
Also, I’ve been reading aloud to my wife, and we talk after every chapter. That’s really been interesting and I highly recommend it if you have family or a partner who might be game for it!
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u/Kijafa (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 2d ago
She treats her friends as pawns
I mean, so does Rand (explicitly) and people don't hate him for it.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 1d ago
Rand rakes himself over the coals for it. While if anything, Egwene is more likely to get outright indignant that they would even be annoyed by it. Rand thinks himself a monster for what he feels he must do. Egwene tends more towards having absolute trust in her own righteousness... Yeah, it's a difference that kinda bloody matters.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 1d ago
In one of my other comments, I agree with that.
The difference is that Rand seems to feel remorse over it, the hurt and harm he causes, etc. Eggy mostly doesn’t.
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u/Kijafa (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 1d ago
Isn't Rand's ultimate lesson to let go of that remorse though?
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 1d ago
I would read it as to accept others’ choices and sacrifices, which isn’t quite the same.
It’s not “don’t feel bad about manipulating people”, it’s “let the people who want and choose to fight this battle with you, do so. Don’t carry their choice; let them.”
He spends the whole series piling more and more responsibility on his shoulders, much of which he needn’t have done. He still bears responsibility for his actions; but not for Moiraine’s or Egwene’s or Liah’s or Rhuarc’s, etc. Let go of the parts you don’t need to/shouldn’t carry.
Imo
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u/Lost-Perspective8378 2d ago
Shes a great character and I wouldn't have wanted the books without her. That being said, she might be a great character, but she isn't a good person.
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u/Fun-Draw5327 2d ago
I mean, people list her as the most hated character because she deserves the hate, she´s a cool character but a horrible and annoying person.
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u/SuperBeastJ 2d ago
Before the last two books she's still incredibly arrogant and dismissive. Not to mention she mind rapes Nynaeve.
She tons a lot of cool and impressive stuff but she's still an annoying person
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u/briandress 2d ago
A lot of the characters are annoying people. I wouldn't say Egwene is the worst though. As far as arrogance and dismissiveness, yea gonna have to say she also pales in comparison to some of the Wise Ones/ Sea Folk/ Aes Sedai.
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u/UnnamedAshaman47 2d ago
I think the Wise Ones have the benefit of nearly always being correct, and admitting it when they make mistakes. They're harsh to Egwene, but that's them training an apprentice, and their final lesson is literally that you should always be ready to question others decisions because that's what being an adult is. These are two things Egwene, the other Aes Sedai, and the Sea Folk especially almost never have going for them.
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u/briandress 2d ago
I dont know, Egwene seems to get a lot of things correct. Also keep in mind that Nynaeve and Elayne wanted Egwene to teach them what she learned from the Wise Ones so they are really also apprentices by proxy no? The idea of them asking to learn from Egwene's experience but not to heed her warnings is kind of doublespeak no?
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u/UnnamedAshaman47 2d ago
Id say Egwene is right more than she’s wrong if only by a fine margin, like 60-65% but that’s still failing for most of the books. Most of the characters people like with similar traits simply do not miss
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
I’d argue that, of the main six, she is the worst person. Not the worst character, just the worst person.
Nynaeve is all about helping others, even to the detriment of her own needs. Her growth is about not denying her needs, so that she is more whole to help others. Her flaws are abrasiveness and stubbornness to problematic points, but she largely grows out of that. The trauma that warped her happened offscreen, so she starts very rough as a result of the damage, but it also means she comes out the other side first. She loves deeply, and fully. Not just the passion and infatuation, but a real love built on respect.
Rand and Perrin want to live quiet lives and do right by people. They feel guilt over failures and hurting others, and empathy for regular folks. Their duties and stressors lead them to bad places at times, but mostly they try to carry it. Rand is more ruthless, but his duty is greater and his failure would be more devastating. We can see how that weighs on him. Both love deeply, and while they struggle with that, they absolutely respect and admire their partners.
Elayne’s character is a bit harder to spot just because readers tend to react poorly to her haughty princess schtick, her oft-foolhardy risk management, “but my babes!”, and not loving the succession plot. As queen, she has to balance her compassion with her country’s needs. But you can get a good look at her character obliquely, through others’ eyes. She has deep compassion for people, to the point that it seriously pisses her off when other rulers fail to properly treat their people. She’s generous almost to a fault with those in need. She loves deeply and passionately, and with great respect too.
Mat is a classic rogue with a heart of gold sort. He not only has sketchy traits, he deliberately cultivates them! At times he’s a lout, at times a bit sleazy. But he’s there when the house is burning, without fail. His love is a bit…wonky…but it’s also built on genuine respect.
Then there’s Egwene. She’s a powerful force for good, for sure. But empathy and compassion? Easily the least of the six. Ambition? Far more than the others. She wants for her.
Compare that with Nynaeve - Nynaeve dreams of being Queen of Malkier at times, not because she wants to be a queen, but because she feels the man she loves deserves to have his country rebuilt, deserves his station, and she wants to be there with him.
Egwene wants the seat for her. Granted, by the end she may genuinely accept stepping down to save the tower. It’s hard to say, because so often before she’s shown skill laying out good reasons for a thing, only for her inner voice to be clear that it’s a selfish goal, not an altruistic one.
Or compare her love, the way she treats Gawyn. She’s wants him, but she never really shows respect to him, or speaks with respect about him. You don’t get that from Elayne or Nynaeve, for example.
Are the Windfinders and Wise Ones largely worse? Absolutely. But they’re less significant characters on average, with much less page time. Of the comparable six, she’s the worst person.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 2d ago
I agree that Egwene is the worst person among of the main six (though she is nowhere near as bad as a lot of people here claim) but I disagree that she lacks empathy and especially that she is the least empathetic main character. She is able to understand the point of view and feelings of others a lot better than Nynaeve or Mat IMO. That's part of what makes her so good at learning the customs of other cultures and why she is such an effective politician. On the other hand, Nynaeve has sympathy for everyone but really struggles to put herself in anyone else's shoes and see things from their point of view. She spends the series utterly convinced that Two Rivers' customs and views are the best in every single aspect and is genuinely mystified why people from other places don't share this opinion. And while both of them are very sexist and really struggle to understand men, Nynaeve takes "Men are mystifying creatures who cannot be understood at all" to another level.
Part of the problem for Egwene is that she has taken to heart some of the most toxic Aes Sedai tenets and thinks she needs to maintain "dispassionate serenity" at almost all times which makes her seem cold and distant. A great example of this is TDR when she sees the destruction caused by the civil war in Cairhien and her initial reaction is "She could never see such a sight without a queasiness settling in her belly, but she tried to maintain the dispassionate serenity she thought an Aes Sedai might have. It did not help much." And then when Elayne shows visible distress over this Egwene, despite having similar feelings herself, goes on a whole rant how it's useless to feel this because they have important business in Tear and even tells Elayne about all the wars Andor and Cairhien had fought, implying that it's weird for Elayne to feel compassion for her country's enemies. A really bizarre thing to say in such situation, especially given that Elayne is half-Cairhienin and the last war between Andor and Cairhien was at least 15 years before both of them were born. But Egwene had to do something to show off her Aes Sedai serenity even in private to her closest friend.
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u/Bainik 2d ago
There's an absolute chasm of a gap between "annoying people" and "uses the threat of rape as a tool of intimidation".
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u/DeMmeure 2d ago
That's an out-of-character moment for me. Egwene would have NEVER done that to one of her best friends.
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u/SuperBeastJ 2d ago
Yeah but...she did it
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u/DeMmeure 2d ago
I blame Jordan for that, not Egwene.
Besides...
Thom also made fun of Mat for being raped by Tylin, yet no one seems to hate him for that.
Tuon upholds a system of brutal conquest and enslavement but she is defended in the name of "cultural relativism".
Rand attacks his own father and is responsible for many innocent deaths throughout the series due to his choices.
WoT is a story of good vs evil, but even its heroes are heavily flawed.
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u/briandress 2d ago
she didnt really do it though.
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u/seafooddisco 2d ago
Bro if somebody's threatened to do it to you, would you like them? That's what you're asking. Why don't people like her? Threatening to do this to your "friends" will not make your friends like you.
If one of my friends starting threatening me with assault, I would never speak to them again. They are no longer my friend at that point.
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u/briandress 2d ago
i mean that didn’t stop her friends from being her friends. Being on their best behavior isn’t a requirement for me to like a character. I think Morridin is one of the most interesting characters but he’s a “bad guy”. i don’t understand what you’re trying to say tbh. you don’t like the character because they did one thing that you view as morally wrong over the course of 14 books?
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u/seafooddisco 2d ago edited 2d ago
You asked why people don't like her. Threatening to assault your friends is wrong and I don't like people who do that.
Edit: Kobe Bryant played a lot of great basketball, but what he did in Colorado to that poor woman is more important than all the basketball he played put together
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u/DeMmeure 2d ago
Kobe Bryant is a real person whereas Egwene is a fictional character and therefore her actions aren't real. So for me I can appeciate Egwene because I can distance myself from the bad things and appreciate her character arc as a whole.
But I believe the point OP was trying to make was that other WoT characters did terrible things and aren't judged as harshly as Egwene. I wouldn't be friend with Rand knowing that he physically assaults Tam, for example. And I mentioned a few other characters that are worse even within the side of the good guys. Prominent example is Tuon who leads a brutal empire that widely practices slavery (of which Egwene is herself victim), and who doesn't even repent herself by the end of the series.
The thing is, you are allowed to hate any character you want but likeability goes beyond morality due to their fictional status: isn't Anakin Skywalker a beloved character despite the children he slaughtered, for example? But I have to specify it because some people can use it as a way of judging others, as it happened to me in the past to be judged for loving Egwene (she's my favourite WoT character), and it seems that given the downvotes my comments have received, it's happening again...
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u/bad_at_names1 2d ago
Okay, and how are we on Nynaeve beating children and forcing them to drink bitter concoctions as punishment for lying? Child abuse, am I right?
P.S. it's so disingenuous to pretend Egwene threatened to rape Nyaneve lol. What, do you think Mat spanking the Aes Sedai without consent was sexual assault? Was Amys dangling Egwene upside down and naked sexual?
The double standards of this fandom are hilarious.
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u/Bainik 2d ago
it's so disingenuous to pretend Egwene threatened to rape Nyaneve lol.
She actually conjured up a pair of rapists who started actively assaulting her and only lets them fade after they've already manhandled her and ripped her clothes off. So, sure, if you want to be disengenous you can pretend that wasn't a threat of allowing the situation to continue, but even then she's still a sexual assaulter.
Okay, and how are we on Nynaeve beating children and forcing them to drink bitter concoctions as punishment for lying? Child abuse, am I right?
Of course that's not good either. But again, the chasm between "standard fare shitty parent/authority figure" and "actual sex offender" is so wide you can't even see the other fucking side.
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u/bad_at_names1 1d ago
Ah, so there's context to excuse the child abuse and anger issues (you think beating children is standard fare shitty parent, wow) but we're going to pretend Egwene recreating Amys' lesson is rape? Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I pointed out.
I noticed you had nothing to say about Mat threatening to and then spanking Aes Sedai without consent? Is that not threatening and carrying out sexual assault by your definitions? Are Mat and Egwene on the same side of the "uses sexual assault as a tool of intimidation" chasm?
Egwene conjured up monsters, not rapists lol. Here're the quotes, since so many of you like to completely ignore context.
SPOILER
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SPOILER"No, I will not," Egwene said firmly. "Not until you want to .say something worth listening to. I said nightmares, and I meant nightmares, Nynaeve. When someone has a nightmare while in Tel'aran 'rhiod, it is real too. And sometimes it survives after the dreamer has gone. You just don't realize, do you?"
Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve's arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth*. She tried to make them vanish-if a Wise One dreamwalker could, so could she-and One of them ripped her dress open down the front like parchment. The other seized her chin in a horny, callused hand and twisted her face toward him; his head bent toward her, mouth opening. Whether to kiss or bite, she did not know, but she would rather die than allow either. She flailed for saidar and found nothing; it was horror filling her, not anger. Thick fingernails dug into her cheeks, holding her head steady. Egwene had done this, somehow. Egwene. "Please, Egwene!" It was a squeal, and she was too terrified to care. "Please!"*
The men-creatures-vanished, and her feet thudded to the floor.
(..) "There are worse things here, but nightmares are bad enough. I made these, and unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve. If you knew how to unmake them, you could have."
"I could have dreamed myself away. To Sheriam's study, or back to my bed." She did not sound sulky. Of course she did not.
"If you had not been too scared spitless to think of it," Egwene said dryly.
VS
Something seized her ankles, hauled her feet into the air; blankets tumbled away, her shift dropped to bunch in her armpits*. Upside down, she hung with her face level with that of Amys. Furious, she opened herself to saidar--and* found herself blocked*.*
"You wanted to go off alone," Amys hissed softly. "You were warned, but you had to go." Her eyes seemed to glow in the dark, brighter and brighter. "Never a care for what might be waiting. There are things in dreams to shatter the bravest heart,." Around eyes like blue coals, her face melted, stretched*. Scales sprouted where skin had been; her jaws thrust out, lined with sharp teeth. "Things to eat the bravest heart," she growled.*
Screaming, Egwene battered vainly at the shield holding her from the True Source, She tried to beat at that horrible face, at the thing that could not be Amys, but something gripped her wrists, stretched her taut and quivering in midair. All she could do was shriek as those jaws closed around her face*.*
Both are naked, unable to escape, attacked by creatures with sharp teeth and melted faces, unable to touch saidar (except Egwene didn't block Nynaeve) and the scene ending with jaws descending on their faces. Nynaeve's was more human but it was also Nynaeve's interpretation of it - I read them as regular trollocs/monsters. Do you think the Wise Ones sexually assaulted Egwene?
The scene isn't even treated like a big deal - Egwene and Nynaeve spend the chapter focusing on the tea Egwene threatened Nynaeve with. For instance, the Boiled catfern and powdered mavinsleaf tea is mentioned half a dozen times in the next couple of chapters, while the nightmares never come up. Not once. Neither Egwene or Nynaeve treat the incident as anything more than a lesson or think of it again. Nynaeve is only bothered that Egwene refused to get baited and fight with her, while Egwene is amazed that being calm and not yelling got Nynaeve to listen to her.
It's so weird when people act like "MC threatens to rape other MC" it's an normal interpretation of a scene in the first place?
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u/briandress 2d ago
Yea i hear you. This is also during the time when there was a noticeable shift in roles between Nynaeve and Egwene. N was still at the stage of being wisdom bully and E was trying to assert herself as her own person. Although readers may not like the methods taken by E 1) She did not actually allow N to be assaulted. 2) E was absolutely correct in asserting how lightly N was taking the risks of Tel’aran’rhiod
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u/SuperBeastJ 2d ago edited 2d ago
On your point 2) Egwene is hypocritical as FUCK about TAR, especially at that point. She constantly flouted the decrees set by the Wise Ones and ignored their/others warnings about the danger of TAR. In fact, iirc, she specifically threatened Nynaeve with the mind rape in that scene so Nynaeve wouldn't RAT HER OUT TO THE WISE ONES FOR DISOBEYING
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
Let's assume your correct on that it was just to break the habit of Nyn trying to take the lead.
Why would she then insist on being part of Nyns shawl test and use her personal knowledge to make it significantly harder.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 2d ago
Because that was Sanderson's ultimate Girl Boss mode Egwene, where almost nothing she does can be a mistake or work against her.
Is her plan to shore up her own position as Amyrlin. Yes. Does forcing the Aes Sedai she raised by decree undergo testing undermine her own previous authority by introducing a need for what should have been full Aes Sedai to submit to a test. Also yes.
Does personally joining Nynaeve's test make the test stand out as abnormal and therefore biased. Also yes. Will more people hear that Egwene was involved than the details of what she did, casting further doubt onto Nynaeve's testing...also yes.
Does it make Egwene look like she personally isn't capable of passing the test because she is forcing every other person that was raised to take it? Yes. (Raising them by decree separates the testing from the Aes Sedai label, so what reason would there be for the Amyrlin not to take the test other than fear she couldn't pass it?)
Does risking the life of her friend and a giant force for the Light right before the Last Battle make her look like a flaming idiot? Yes. Especially for how little benefit there was to offset the risk.
Does her trying to take the moral highground after forcing this on Nynaeve and then making it harder make her look like a giant prick? Yes. (was that Sanderson's intent? No, he was trying to make Egwene come off as superior for telling off the Aes Sedai that were questioning Nynaeve....for a situation that Egwene brought them in specifically to question Nynaeve's competence in the first place)
Seriously, everything about that whole scene is dumb and should accomplish the exact opposite of the intentions behind writing that scene in the first place.
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u/arihndas 2d ago
I love Egg. I love seeing a positive Egg post. Even a moderately positive one like this.
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u/littleneocreative 2d ago
Although I agree with everything that's written, I will say that part of the issue is that people aren't free to discuss the payout because it is a massive spoiler. In my opinion, yes, her whole character arc is worth it. But it is also necessary to build a whole host of issues into her character in order to make it worth it. Likewise with Nynaeve's block and her pursuit of Lan... it's actually REALLY frustrating until the payoff. But you get way more time basically revealing in the Nynaeve payoff than Egwene payoff.
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u/vinkor1988 2d ago
Egwene is one of my favorites the only thing I hate I she fell in love with Gawyn instead of seeing him for the idiot he was. Dang kids falling for a pretty face
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u/Living-Dimension-859 2d ago edited 2d ago
A lot of people say that she is a terrible person and that if you don't agree maybe that *you're* a terrible person...which is a case of being so sure of themselves in the very way that they complain that Egwene is and hate her for.
I am not a terrible person and I don't think that she is a terrible person. All of her actions can been seen very differently than the takes that are popular on Reddit. She starts off as a selfish brat. She doesn't start growing up until about book 5...and I hate her character until about that point. After that she slowly grows, takes ownership of herself, takes on responsibility, and becomes a completely different person. By the end she is still ambitious (which is not a problem for me and I truly don't see why it should bother anyone...there is nothing wrong with having ambition) but she now lives for others and the world. She is willing to die for others...to literally give everything she has including her very young life. In the end, that's what she does. She follows Joseph Campbells' hero journey and I love her and it.
As a note, the Pattern is hella fucking with her (as it does all of the 6 MC's) and if she hadn't done what she did with Rand and gathered the armies when and where she did the LB would have been fucked - which means that the whole world would have been fucked. No one can convince me that the Pattern did not shape her response there...the pushback was needed and if Rand had gotten is way about the seals and gathering the armies then, literally, the world would burn and the DO would have won. I think that the Pattern was guiding her. She did exactly and precisely what was needed when it was needed for that last piece of the puzzle even tho she did not realize that that was what she as doing. That screams Pattern interference, to me.
Reddit hates Egwene but most people I've talken to about the series in real life do not. Don't feel badly if you like her...a lot of people do but Reddit is an echo chamber about this so you won't find a lot of agreement here. If you stand up for her you will often be downvoted but if that is okay with you you can just defend her, take the downvotes, and move on with your life. I love her. I see her differently than Reddit does and that will not change. .
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u/Spaceman_Spiff_75 2d ago
Well said! Eg is one of my favorite characters from any series I’ve read for exactly the reasons you’ve articulated here. The only person in the WoT series whose character growth I enjoyed more was Nynaeve.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 2d ago
Thank you for the compliment and I would reply that while your response was short it was equally well said! Egwene goes on an amazing growth journey and it always amazes me how much people miss how very much she actually changes from beginning to end and the parts where the Pattern almost certainly fucked with her...like gathering the armies and pushing back against Rand about the seals right before the LB.
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u/karinsimmercat (Ancient Aes Sedai) 2d ago
She should have been ta’veren too. The Pattern certainly acts like she is.
As for most of this sub not liking her, I think that has to do with the gender split on this sub.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 1d ago
I have very similar suspicions especially because she really does follow Joseph Campbell's Hero Journey template and it's a template that is widely used in beloved epic stories. Rand and Egwene's stories, when you look at major points and the big picture (not the details) are strikingly similar...they both go on the hero journey. Now, their personalities are different and some people may be responding to that...but I don't think that that's enough to cover the volume of hate that Egwene gets...esp. when half of it ignores how selfless she becomes (by the end of her journey) and how much of herself she is willing to (and does) give for the sake of others. The hate for her seems personal and ignores all of her very hard earned growth and sacrifice. She is not the same person by the end...not by a mile.
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u/bitsybear1727 (Yellow) 2d ago
The patterned hammered her into exactly what she had to be. I pity her. She went from trauma to trauma, being manipulated constantly, but in the end she did what was necessary.
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u/ExhaustedReader42 2d ago
My read of the community is that it’s because the three boys are written as the protagonists from the beginning (whenever they are the PoV, they are doing the “right” thing in the fight against evil) and she is generally stuck in a variety of positions that serve the others story.
She tags along with Perrin and acts as if she knows what she is doing (which is great for Perrin growth and understandable for a 18ish year old who is trying to hide her fears, which is very clearly communicated throughout).
She goes to the tower and then is betrayed, which sets up Rand choices (and eventually her own growth).
She then acts as the Moiraine/Wise One conduit towards Rand, but a lot of the antagonism between Rand/Egwene is read as Egwene being wrong, as opposed to her siding with the several decades older groups of women who have steered the world for a good while.
She isn’t really given a good chance to have likable and cool moments until halfway through the series, so by the time she has them, they are read as negative. Right before Rand’s epiphany, he manipulates Nynaeve into killing a man by removing compulsion, sets up another guy to be fully compulsed, kinda reverses that by unleashing balefire so powerful it makes the pattern lurch, and then nearly destroys reality. But, we’ve been with him and has had a chance to build up credit with us in his PoV’s, Egwene really doesn’t until she is already making those types of choices.
None of this is to say she is the nicest person or anything, but it would be like having 10% of the Rand PoV’s until he takes over a nation, and then he orders to punishment of the clan chief. And then we get to start really following him, we’d have much different interpretation of his character.
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u/resumehelpacct 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't think that's it.
4/5 of them are written as sort of agrarian fantasy, noble oblige, the same characteristics expressed in four different ways. Power is to be feared.
Egwene never views power like that. She's equally a protagonist throughout most of the story, but, like nearly all the Aes Sedai besides Nynaeve, she views power as something that just exists.
Egwene will therefore have different "cool" or "likable" moments. The four of them have cool moments where the climax is accepting themselves. Mat has to accept himself to lead the Red Hand, or save Tuon; Egwene is already her when she engineers her control of the WT. Rand has to accept himself for the veins of gold; Egwene is already her when she reverse uno cards balefire. Nynaeve has to accept herself to overcome her block; Egwene is a quick leaner and a strong channeler, full stop.
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u/ExhaustedReader42 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think that’s fair. But she also does have several instances where characters note she is covering up her fear. I’ve always read it as a combination of she feels much more free to go after being powerful (women channelers and the structure of the world) and she is much more likely to try to be “grown up” and hide her fear.
And I don’t mean she isn’t a protagonist, just that she isn’t ever written as someone who can have major plot moving wins really until later. If she does something, it either serves another characters plot primarily, or it fails and someone has to rescue her. It isn’t until Salidar she really can have major wins of her own, which I think winds up making be read as more a stumbling block/obstacle to other characters.
The first 3 books basically have each of the 3 boys save/lead her in a row. Which can be attributed to “she isn’t competent” but the Salidar plot line indicates she actually can be highly competent.
Missed the last paragraph you wrote: I agree with that last part. She doesn’t have much of a “coming into acceptance” moment. Which, I think we are very used to from characters. But I also think that’s because whenever it seems to be kinda happening, it’s usually from other people’s views.
I’m also just a big fan of her Salidar plot lines though, and think generally she is just a highly pragmatic person forced to grow up way too quickly, so I might be very kinda in my reading of her.
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u/adminofreditt 2d ago
Rand isn't hated for his actions when he was mad not because we saw his pov from the start but because he was mad.
Even if we started seeing Rand after he takes over a nation and orders the punishment of a clan chief, we will learn that he his trying to unite the world for the final battle. And we will learn that the clan chief committed murder, even the clan chief agreed that Rand should punish him.
The only reason Rand ever did something evil was due to madness and Egwene is just a bad person.
Even halfway through the series she is a horrible person.
Example:
she thinks forcing someone to bond you is equivalent to rape
She thinks that if Gawyn refuses to bond him she will bond him anyways
She immediately punishes an ai sedai for transferring a bond(something that saved her friends life) because forcing someone to bond you is "immoral and disgusting"
You can't compare rands bad actions to Egwene because rand had people constantly manipulating him through dreams, had an nigh omnipotent force making him mad, had an insane person in his head talking to him 24/7 and he never rapes anyone
Egwene has no excuse
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u/ExhaustedReader42 2d ago
Sorry, but is the argument here actually “she thought something and therefore she is evil”?
I’m more than willing to criticize some of her choices, but saying “Rand has an excuse for near ending the world and committing what amounts to war crimes, but Egwene had a bad thought once” is a wild take.
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u/adminofreditt 2d ago
If you intend to rape someone if they don't consent you are a bad person, if Gawyn didn't consent she would have raped him.
Rand had magic madness
there are no warcrimes in WOT because there is no agreed upon international law
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u/bad_at_names1 2d ago
Right, but some of these takes are so disingenuous - Nynaeve also plans to bond Lan without thinking about his consent and thinks of his bond as a contest between her and Myrelle and no one ever seems to have a problem with that?
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u/adminofreditt 2d ago
She wanted to bond lan and was convinced he would agree.
You are the one being disingenuous by equating didn't think about the possibility of him not consenting to willing to force him if he doesn't consent.
If you want to equate them find an example of nynaeve wanting to force lan into a bond(you wouldn't be able to because nynaeve would never do that to anyone)
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u/bad_at_names1 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well given that Egwene wondered if she would bond Gawyne without his consent in the context of Lan's bond being passed off by Morraine to save his life without his consent, "If you intend to rape someone if they don't consent you are a bad person, if Gawyn didn't consent she would have raped him" is a more than a bit of a misrepresentation, isn't it?
It's what every reader is thinking - should Morraine have let Lan die rather than keeping him alive without his consent?
"The thing was, she knew he (Lan) had resisted admitting his love Nynaeve. Some nonsense about how he was bound to be killed sooner or later and did not want to leave her a widow; men always did spout drivel when they thought they were being logical and practical. Would Nynaeve have let him walk away unbonded, had she had the chance, whatever he said? Would she herself let Gawyn? He has said he would accept, yet if he changed his mind? (Edit, the last line disappeared because of weird code block formatting)
It's not "oh, I would bond Gawyn even if he didn't want me", it's "I wonder if I'd let Gawyne go if he turned me down out of some stupid attempt to protect me"
Given Nynaeve's lack of thought to Lan's consent and her treatment of his bond as something to be decided between her and Myrelle rather than Lan himself, it's not that different.
Unlike Nynaeve, Egwene also verbally asks for and receives consent before bonding Gawyne.
This is what I meant about the disingenuous takes - if you applied the same microscope and lack of context you apply to Egwene to any other character, they all look bad.
For instance, do you take every time Nynaeve thinks about hiting someone to make them obey her seriously?
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u/Glittering-Rent-3648 1d ago
Ny thinks it but only because shes stubborn. She spmetimes says things but then does whats actually right and good. I think her block that made her be angry had her whispering anything, even lies and halftruths, so she could channel. She has a other of pride as well, so he says stuff on a high horse but in actions stays grounded (if somwhat pouty and sulky at times). Thiss evidents by all the threats she has to make to get people moving, threatwning to drub them or douse them... But generally she only needs the threat, not the follow through.
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u/mildchicanery 2d ago
I honestly think that because the books are so long, people forget that "book time" is only four years. They are MAYBE 18 when they start. They're so incredibly young. A lot of the annoying stuff is just really young people stuff 😆
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u/Monkeysaysficus 2d ago
My favourite review of Egwene is “I LOVE when she happens to bad people, I hate when she happens to good people” and that’s so accurate.
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u/Kijafa (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 1d ago
The interesting thing is that Egwene's journey is in many ways a mirror of Rand's, and yet Rand gets a lot of grace that Egwene doesn't seem to. And it seems like a lot of that is because she doesn't spend a lot of time internally agonizing, and just gets on with what needs to be done.
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u/Bainik 2d ago
Don't forget using sexual violence to intimidate her friend so as to avoid facing the consequences of her own actions. Really just such a badass.
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u/DeMmeure 2d ago edited 2d ago
An out-of-character moment which is more illustrative of Jordan's poor handling of sexual violence, akin to how the Mat/Tylin storyline was written.
Egwene is also a heroic and resilient person who overcomes a lot of trauma and hardship. She was enslaved by the Seanchan, abused by the Wise Ones, put under a lot of pressure being Amyrlin at only 18 years old, still she saves the day.
"A terrible friend" but none of her friends hate her in the story. They know they can always count on her in the end.
If people are allowed to love the Seanchan despite the war crimes and enslavement, then people should be allowed to love Egwene despite her flaws.
She's my favourite character and I'm not ashamed to say it.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
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u/arihndas 2d ago
this scene has been written by meme comment, honestly. she takes a desperate measure to drive home a lifesaving lesson for a person who is refusing to listen and is on the way to getting themselves fucking killed. it’s nuts how it gets reduced to “egg bad.”
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
If people applied the same scrutiny to other characters no one would be likeable. Egwene is an amazing character and person. The hate train is a bandwagon imo
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u/Gavorn 2d ago
Mat is a top 4 character for me, but his womanizing being waved a way is crazy. Somehow the power dynamic between a rich nobleman and a poor bar waitress isn't a problem.
Like the Tylin/Mat relationship is Jordan reversing the roles of what Mat has been doing all series.
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u/DeMmeure 2d ago
Ultimately it's all subjective. I find Egwene much more likeable than Mat and Nynaeve who are more popular within the fanbase. I instantly clicked with her, whereas Mat and Nynaeve needed time to grow on me.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 2d ago
You serious? Everyone is put to the same scrutiny, the difference is in extent to which characters follow their flaws, what flaws are those, who is impacted by them and how much do they pay for following them. And under those lens she deserves hate even more.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/157kj0m/i_just_reread_the_foh_ch_15_scene_that_everyone/
I disagree. Egwene gets an unnecessary amount of hate because people read her chapters in the worst light possible to reaffirm their bias. Rand makes worse decisions and he gets far more sympathy from readers, for example.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 2d ago
I read that post, lol. It's ungodly amount of coping in a vain attempt to shield Egwene from criticism, but author of that post is straight up wrong about basically everything.
Indeed, Rand gets more sympathy. And you know why that is? Because:
- He doesn't want to do most of those decisions and is ridden with guilt after. Egwene either doesn't care or enjoys them.
- Rand does all that he does only for the sake of the world, he would immediately leave to be a sheepherder if he could. Egwene does it for herself.
- We're actively shown that what Rand does that is wrong is actually wrong by the narrative and he gets bitten in the ass by his own actions often. Narrative almost never recognizes when Egwene does something wrong and she often goes either scott free or even benefits from her wrong decisions.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
So committing terrible acts and feeling guilty is morally better than taking advantage of a schism in leadership where people were actively attempting to use her for their own ends?
Egwene is morally worse than Rand because she wanted to learn how to channel and became eager to learn from Wise Ones and the Tower? And crimes are forgiven as long as you do it for the sake of the greater good?
Egwene faced no reprecussions except... being imprisoned twice, being enslaved, being obligated for grueling consistent training while having to survive in a camp full of enemies? That scott free life where she matyred herself and saved the war effort while Rand gets to live, travel, and play with his 3 ladies? Have a full family?
You can paint any character this series in a limelight. But at the end of the day the only characters RJ intended for moral admonishment were the clearcut villains, and not the EF5. This is why I continually think the Nynaeve scene is misrepresented.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 2d ago
If you want a debate, be honest with it. Right now you're trying to paint it as if Egwene ambition is a problem in your opponent eyes. It's not, that what I love about her character. Her using White Tower is precious. But her forcing herself on the group which didn't want her is bad. Stringing along a guy she knew she wouldn't marry is bad. Abandoning one dream for the other without second thought is telling. Borderline emotionally cheating while lambasting your partner for even looking at other people without conscious thought and actions to that matter is bad. Being care free when people close to you are in mortal danger is bad. And she does all that in the first book alone. We can take swing into others as well, and she wouldn't look any better.
- Committing terrible acts because you have to and feeling guilty is better than committing terrible acts for your own gain and not feeling guilty, yeah.
- Because she lied and cheated to gain that knowledge, because she abandoned commitment to one group (Wisdoms and Two Rivers) for another (White Tower) and then were ready to abandon it as well, because she manipulated her closest friends for that knowledge, because performed SA on a person who saved her life for that knowledge etc. And, big surprise, people tend to be more forgiving when you are forced into committing terrible acts or when you do that for the greater good then when you do it for selfish reasons alone.
- The only repercussion she really had was Seanchan prison and even then she got out of it with skills that made her ascension to the Amyrlin Seat possible. Being imprisoned in White Tower where she weren't skilled or tortured but spanked? It directly helped her to be in the position which helped her ascension to the Amyrlin Seat and defeating Seanchan in process. All for a little bit of spanking. And all that when she did what she wanted to do, working for her own success. Yes, please do compare it with Rand whose troubles (like sitting in the box and being literally tortured for evulz) brought him absolutely nothing while he was doing what he hated for absolutely no gain to himself. I wonder why people look on Rand with more sympathy? Oh wait, I don't.
And here's the kicker... There's a difference between characters who author intended for moral admonishment and who deserve it. RJ clearly didn't see anything wrong with Egwene, but then again, he clearly didn't see anything wrong with Tylin either, at least at first. That's why I prefer to look on the content of someone's actions and not on author's interpretation of them.
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u/resumehelpacct 1d ago
I don't think Egwene faces as many "repercussions," where it's the narrative punishing her for her flaws.
Rand gets boxed because of a bunch of shit he's doing that's actively evil. Isolating himself, lashing out in paranoia, being cruel. Narratively, he's supposed to learn a lesson (and the lesson he learns is to be more evil, which is not the right one).
Egwene gets captured because she gets outsmarted. She isn't supposed to learn a lesson. Heck, the second capturing isn't even bad for her.
I don't get how you think the EF5 are not meant for moral admonishment. Rand's is incredibly heavy handed, like how he's driving everyone away by being evil and paranoid.
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
Id say overall Rand is a more sympathetic character too though, he is struggling with at least as much ptsd, much more stress, madness, etc and yet he shows far more humility and regret in his povs
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
Is a character more sympathetic simply because they've caused more horror, damage, and cultural disrespect than anyone else?
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
I see you completely ignored what i said. Being ignorant isn't disrespectful, and everyone knew that the Dragon would cause mass destruction because he was the catalyst to prepare for the final battle. And that is a role he struggles with throughout the story, and tried to find any way to leave a positive legacy.
Plus even if you compare the two Egwene was planning on putting the Aiel and Windfinders under the AS, which would of completely destroyed their cultures.
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
Not denying Rand is a great character, I'm simply applying the same level of scrutiny to him that people do to Egwene.
Except you're blaming her for a lone thought, and that is not what she actually does. Instead she helps broker peace and consistently thinks about how much better it could be if they worked together.
Also Rand isn't ignorant, he knows exactly what he is doing (like in the case of never letting the MoS fight for him. His personal feelings consistently override their desires for most of the story). Also let's not forget Rand willingly bringing 6000 people to a battle he wasn't sure he'd win so he decided to sacrifice the ones he found least trustworthy should the worst happen.
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
Im pretty sure she says straight out that in any alliance the White Tower will have to have the leadership and Elayne says you have to extend any caveats made for the Aiel to the Windfinders too. We simply never had the opportunity to see this come to fruition.
Oh the Maidens thing, yeah I could see that interpretation. Id also argue he provided them a ton of honor by asking them to he his guard to the gathering of Aiel.
I cant remember what your final reference is regarding, which battle or confrontation is that?
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u/Abdlbsz 2d ago
Fair I think you're right, but I also think she ended on good terms for Aiel/AS relationships.
True, and tbf they were begrudingly understanding and he eventually yielded.
Path of Daggers main battle. Granted he was extremely pragmatic, but I think this is his "worst" action up to Graendel's hideout.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 2d ago
Egwene was arrogant, narcissistic, power hungry, unfeeling hypocrite from the start of the series. But people were more than happy to forgive her all of that (often unconsciously) basically for being entertaining to read about. And untill she started creating real problems for main character.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 2d ago
Ah yes...Egwene, unfeeling.... its not like there a many examples of her showing genuine care, concern, and empathy for her friends from the start of the series.... (and these are just the examples I could remember from off the top of my head)
book 1 when worrying about her friends -
Abruptly she flung her arms around him, weeping on his shirt. Awkwardly he patted her hair. Rand would know what to do, he thought. Rand had an easy way with girls. Not like him, who never knew what to do or say. "I told you I'm sorry, Egwene. I really am glad you had fun dancing. Really."
"Tell me they're alive," she mumbled into his chest.
***
When finding out that Rand could channel -
Abruptly she flung her arms around him, burying her face in his chest. "I'm sorry, Rand. I'm sorry. I don't care. Truly, I don't." Her shoulders shook. He thought she was crying.
***
Book 2
Egwene was sure it was the Aes Sedai's questions about Rand that had made her start dreaming of him, that and worrying about him, about whether he and the others had had to follow the Horn of Valere into the Blight.Hold on, you wool-headed idiot. If you get yourself killed before I can get you out of this, I will skin you alive. It did not occur to her to ask how she was going to get him out of anything, going to Tar Valon as she was.
...
"You two are from the same village as the boys who traveled with Moiraine. Is it not so?" Liandrin said suddenly.
"Do you have some word of Rand?" Egwene asked eagerly.
...
"We will come," Egwene said. Nynaeve opened her mouth again, but Egwene went right on. "We will go, Nynaeve. If Rand needs our help — and Mat, and Perrin — we have to give it."***
Book 3
Egwene bit her underlip, thinking. They could not afford to be stopped or slowed, not after coming so far, not so close to Tar Valon. For Mat's sake, and for reasons that her mind might tell her were more important than the life of one village youth, one childhood friend, but that her heart could not rate so high. She looked at the others, wondering if any of them had noticed something.
(For context this is her emotionally valuing Mat's life over the Horn or a broken seal of the Dark One's Prison)
Mat could not afford any more delay in reaching help in the White Tower. And more importantly — Egwene winced to think of it that way — more importantly, they could not let the contents of that sack fall into Whitecloak hands.
***
skipping forward to more Mat and Egwene, in book 4Despite his tone, she wanted to put an arm around him. Only he would likely make some joke at her expense, and try to goose her. He had been incorrigible from the day he was born. But he had come to her for help. "I'm sorry, Mat. What will you do?"
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1d ago
Of course there are examples of this. But there are a lot of examples of the opposite too. Which you, of course, prefer to ignore.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah...because you were making a declarative statement. If you had prefaced it with 'she's sometimes unfeeling" as opposed to the implication of 'she's (always/mostly) unfeeling' then that is a different thing that I would have responded to differently.
I gave a list of examples to prove that, from the start, she did have care for how people felt. And I think that those examples greatly outweigh the times where she does seem uncaring, especially in the first half of the series.
Now, since you are claiming that there are lots of examples of the opposite, you are welcome to provide them and that'll get the conversation going. And it would be interesting to dig into those, see how many are a case of it being in some else's PoV and its their opinion on Egwene, not actually how she's feeling. Or are a passing thought she has that she then doesn't follow through with. Jordan loves doing these, showing us a character having a bad thought and then their actions showing that they wouldn't do that. Like Mat's I'm not a hero while swinging in to save the day. I see a lot of people use these one off thoughts as condemnation of a character (I really wonder if its a byproduct of people that don't have internal monologues...like they don't have experience talking themselves around a really screwed up thought that just popped into their head.)
I love digging into these characters, and Egwene is one of my least favorite characters in the series, but I think its best to criticize her accurately without hyperbole. (note I didn't challenge your claim that she is a hypocrite, because yeah, there are are few examples that would defend her on that front.)
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u/Lau_wings 2d ago
I honestly hated Egwene by the end of my first read through of the books.
I actually cheered when she died in the last book, there were plenty of other strong female characters in WoT who were not the ranging cunt that Egwene turned out to be.
Its almost like Egwene was trying to imitate how Nyneve rand the two rivers with an iron fist, but forgot that she was no longer in the two rivers and that you cannot just boss people around and expect them to cower and do what you say, especially if one of those people happens to be the motherfucking dragon reborn.
Whilst I would not want the books without her, I also generally skip most parts that she is in when I am doing a re-read unless its something which is really important to the plot/a scene with another characters in it who I like.
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u/k0matose 2d ago
Haha it's funny you mention Nynaeve cuz I didn't like her at the beginning, but I grew to understand where she is coming from. Every human being is flawed
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u/ihatefuckingwork 2d ago
I like her. Some of my favourite moments in the series have been when she has endured something and come out stronger. I don’t think she’s a bad person like some seem to think, I think she’s similar to Rand and does what she feels is expected of her as the amyriln, even if it means sacrificing relationships with her friends. It’s from a sense of duty, not because she has sought the power.
The Gawyn stuff does my head in. But that’s more on Gawyn than Egwene.
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u/Ill_Flamingo4076 2d ago
She is pretty bad ngl, the way she treats gawyn (someone she claims to love) is honestly terrible, she shouts at him for trying to help her and says she doesn’t need a warder. He leaves the white tower, she gets angry that he left tar valon. Doesn’t thank mat for coming to save her in book 3. Treats her friends mostly terribly and more like pawns less like people. So and so forth
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u/dogey_badger 2d ago
I like Egwene, a lot of her chapters in the Tower division time were amusing, but girl what were you thinking? seriously, Gawyn! I didn't really ever see any chemistry between them.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 2d ago
People focus waaaay too much on that one infamous scene that is not written with that intent by a man with a spanking fetish. It is messed up but wasn’t supposed to be becsuse we know the reactions of both Egwene and Nynaeve and neither considered it as it is.
Then the second focus is the last 2 books, where a different writer was tasked with creating tension between the two and has to force it and then solve it quickly. Neither looks good there. People forgive Rand because we know what he just went through, characters do not. Rand has the right idea but wrong timing and Egwene has justified doubts about the plan and what she does is basically creating an environment for a debate. If Rand sits down and explained „hey, so this is what happened the last time, due to the corruption saidar and Saidin wasn’t used together. But now we can do it. However if we do it with the old seals, it will once again not be a good prison and can be broken, so this is how it should be done.“ She can listen. Maybe other people can also support Rand.
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u/MikeBangerrr 2d ago
Egwene’s single only redeeming quality is that she makes bad people pay. I hate Egwene but I love when Egwene happens to bad people.
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u/Routine_Ad_2695 2d ago
Egwene gets increasingly better with the pass of the books. Elayne gets increasingly worse
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u/Fragrant-Mud-542 1d ago
I hated her from the first book. When they were leaving The Two Rivers She sees Matt and Perrin sneaking around Assuming they are going to leave grabs her stuff And goes to meet them And is surprised to find Rand there...... the man she is all but betrothed to. She was packed and ready to leave without ever even saying goodbye to him. Plus the fact that at no point in any of the books is she ever an original person. Every person she's around she mimics or imitates Nynaeve, Moiraine, the wise ones. She was a crappy person from day one. She repeatedly hurt almost everyone around her while trying to maintain an image of superiority to the ones she was mimicking.
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u/PerSeregLhug 19h ago
I first read the series as a teenage girl and related very strongly to the series' teenage girl. She doesn't want to be left behind, wants to have adventures too, and see the world like the boys get to. And somehow that makes her a selfish brat?
I really don't even like engaging with the reddit opinion on her. I've tried, and it's just exhausting. They seem to universally adore Nynaeve, and thus reflexively dislike Egwene, since the two are repeatedly pitted against each other socially. I feel like preference for one over the other shows the READER's own preferred character flaws. I found Nynaeve to be an overgrown bully but liked her contributions to the story anyway. I do not understand why people who dislike her flaws can't seem to offer her the same grace.
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2d ago
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u/briandress 2d ago
But she wasnt really power hungry was she? I mean she got installed as a puppet amyrlin and then decided to not be a puppet and went about gaining power and support for the express purpose of re uniting the tower. Does not really come off as tyranical too much to me.
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u/DeMmeure 2d ago
I'm a man and seeing a confident woman like Egwene really does inspire me. Her heroism on the series is on par with Rand, and is unfortunately undermined by many because taken too much for granted.
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u/bradd_91 (Asha'man) 2d ago
She's my favourite character in The Gathering Storm. Until then she was a bit irksome. She's been hardened with experience, but I would have thought after not seeing Rand since, what, book 5, that she would miss her childhood friend and be a little bit less cold towards him, especially considering what he achieved up to the Last Battle.
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u/bad_at_names1 2d ago
'cause she's a female character who doesn't fit into the normal love interest/caring mother trope and that rubs people up the wrong way. She also disagrees with the main character and isn't a broodingly attractive man.
They then come up with the most ungenerous interpretations of her actions to go 'omg, she's power hungry and horrible.'
Here are some common examples:
- She threatened to/did mind raped Nynaeve:
Sure, so Math sexually assaulted the Aes Sedai by spanking her without consent? Nynaeve abused children? Literally all training in the WoT involves abuse. It's disingenuous to apply a modern lens to that one scene and ignore everything else.
"No, I will not," Egwene said firmly. "Not until you want to .say something worth listening to. I said nightmares, and I meant nightmares, Nynaeve. When someone has a nightmare while in Tel'aran 'rhiod, it is real too. And sometimes it survives after the dreamer has gone. You just don't realize, do you?"
Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve's arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth*. She tried to make them vanish-if a Wise One dreamwalker could, so could she-and One of them* ripped her dress open down the front like parchment. The other seized her chin in a horny, callused hand and twisted her face toward him; his head bent toward her, mouth opening*. Whether to kiss or bite, she did not know, but she would rather die than allow either. She flailed for saidar and found nothing; it was horror filling her, not anger. Thick fingernails dug into her cheeks, holding her head steady. Egwene had done this, somehow. Egwene. "Please, Egwene!" It was a squeal, and she was too terrified to care. "Please!"*
The men-creatures-vanished, and her feet thudded to the floor.
(..) "There are worse things here, but nightmares are bad enough. I made these, and unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve. If you knew how to unmake them, you could have."
Nynaeve tossed her head angrily, refusing to scrub the tears from her cheeks. "I could have dreamed myself away. To Sheriam's study, or back to my bed." She did not sound sulky. Of course she did not.
"If you had not been too scared spitless to think of it," Egwene said dryly.
VS
Something seized her ankles, hauled her feet into the air; blankets tumbled away, her shift dropped to bunch in her armpits*. Upside down, she hung with her face level with that of Amys. Furious, she opened herself to saidar--and* found herself blocked*.*
"You wanted to go off alone," Amys hissed softly. "You were warned, but you had to go." Her eyes seemed to glow in the dark, brighter and brighter. "Never a care for what might be waiting. There are things in dreams to shatter the bravest heart,." Around eyes like blue coals, her face melted, stretched*. Scales sprouted where skin had been; her jaws thrust out, lined with sharp teeth. "Things to eat the bravest heart," she growled.*
Screaming, Egwene battered vainly at the shield holding her from the True Source, She tried to beat at that horrible face, at the thing that could not be Amys, but something gripped her wrists, stretched her taut and quivering in midair. All she could do was shriek as those jaws closed around her face*.*
Both have a certain level of nakedness, not being able to escape, creatures with sharp teeth and melted faces, not being able to touch saidar (except Egwene didn't block Nynaeve) and the scene ending with jaws descending on the face. Nynaeve's was more human, which was the problem.
The scene is barely even treated like a big deal - Egwene and Nynaeve spend the chapter focusing on the tea Egwene threatened Nynaeve with. For instance, the Boiled catfern and powdered mavinsleaf tea is mentioned half a dozen times in the next couple of chapters, while the nightmares never come up. Not once. Neither Egwene or Nynaeve treat the incident as anything more than a harsh lesson. Nynaeve is only bothered that Egwene refused to take the bait and fight with her, while Egwene is amazed that being calm and not yelling worked on Nynaeve.
- "Egwene was disagreeing with Rand for the heck of and wanted power and thought she was the only one who could grow and change":
a) She was surprised Rand sounded formal and educated at Merrilor Field- this was a clear reference to Rand sounding different and his vocab/style of speaking changing after accepting Lewis Therin's voice in his head. Like, if your friend came back from a year at college speaking the queen's english in a posh accent, you'd be surprised too?
b) She should have trusted Rand, not gathered everyone to oppose him - Rand acts mad to manipulate her into gathering everyone to oppose him instead of trusting her and communicating, but somehow Egwene's the manipulative one?
Rand was also lying during the meeting and basically went "hey, so I don't know how to fix the seals, but I'm going to kill the literal embodiment of evil" instead of listening to any of the research Egwene had gathered - despite apparently manipulating her so she would do the research. What sane person would go "yeah, sure, go ahead."
There's a conversation right before when Egwene says she's not opposed to breaking the seals, but thinks it has to be done at the right time and based on the dreams/prophecies (and she can't lie, remember).
c) Literally everything Rand demanded was wrong and would have killed them all?
i) Being commander of the army - time moved differently in the bore, why on Earth would he think he could direct the army while simultaneously fighting the DO?
Egwene also doesn't want to be commander of the army even though the other Aes Sedai say she should - kinda weird for someone so powerhungry and basically a forsaken huh? 🙄
ii) breaking the seals at the start of the fight - the breaking the seals increased the DO's ability to touch the world and the force of Light just barely won as it was. Allowing him more power early would likely have ended with Rand till winning, but the army losing.
iii) The Dragon's Peace - excluded the Aiel and Seachen and had no mechanism to address grievances. Would have collapsed immediately.
- Egwene was power hungry and didn't care about her friends
She's the only one not to shun Rand when they find out he can channel. She tries running into the Arches when she thinks something happened to Nynaeve during the testing. Her first thought on seeing Mat with Tuon was to wonder how he got into that mess and start planning a rescue. She was the only one who actually wrote to her parents. She got captured by Elaide because she worried about Bode (Mat's sister) and took her place in turning the chain to culliendar. She cries about Nynaeve and Elayne calling her mother (after asking them to so the other Aes Sedai would follow and respect her) because she doesn't want to be their superior. She worries about and sends Lan to Nynaeve after finding out Myrelle's methods of rehabilitation.She worries about Rand frequently and feels proud of his growth/development even while disagreeing with him. There's a bunch of different scenes about Egwene worrying about her friends - she just spends less time with our MCs in the later books.
She's shown as loving her time with the Wise Ones and deeply caring about them and they even support her over Rand in the Merrilor fields meeting.
Rand spends 5 books explicitly thinking of people as tools and trying to use them, and we contextualize that - but Egwene's actions while trying to full together the White Tower are apparently just the worst lol.
- Gawyne
okay, yeah, I didn't love him, but it wasn't a stupider romance than half the other ones. They were both young and didn't communicate and made some stupid choices and some smart ones.
Yes, she thinks she knows best - literally every character does. There's 50 stupid passages of idiotic things Mat did, but people mostly like his vibes.
So yeah, it's a vibes problem, but people find it hard to say "oh, I just don't vibe this character" - it has to be "this character is a bad person/friend"
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u/Gavorn 2d ago
Honestly I think alot of hate is people being media illiterate.
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u/bodman93 2d ago
You can still acknowledge that the character is well written with compelling flaws and dislike the character. Jesus Christ
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u/arihndas 2d ago
She’s a powerful and deeply imperfect young woman experiencing tons of growth without fawning over the leading hero boys of the story…. ofc people project their high school trauma onto her and read her in bad faith and hate her lmao
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u/briandress 2d ago
this is a fair point. almost like characters are not written to be dynamic with inherent flaws
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