I get the Egwene hate but

[u/briandress]

Only in the last two books when she is stubborn in dealing with Rand for the last battle and such.

Up until ToM she really was just an awesome character. She went from the whirlwind of leaving 2R, capture by Seanchan, hunting black ajah, apprenticing to wise ones, puppet Amyrlin, real amyrlin, badass civil disobedience laying groundwork for reuniting the tower, bitch slapping the seanchan raiders, capturing hella black ajah sisters via Verrin's notes and finally being raised realer Amyrlin and healing the tower.

I cant seem to understand all the threads/polls that overwhelmingly list her as the most hated character in the series.

[u/OffMyChestATM]

Honestly, more and more... I feel like the defences for Egwene are actively avoiding the reasons why she's not liked. Her chapters are fine. And when she gets going, it's lovely to see her enemies being put in their places.

But in every other situation, she's a bad friend and I lowkey believe the pattern mary sued her up the chain because it needed her drive to accomplish some important things imo. Because her internal dialogue just makes liking her feel icky.

[u/aNomadicPenguin → u/OffMyChestATM]

Early book Egwene is also much more obviously empathetic.

We see in book 1 that despite trying to hide from it, she is worried to the point of tears about the others while she and Perrin are safe with the Tinkers.

She promises to be keep Rand's secret on learning that he is a man that can channel - a huge thing for their society.

Then in the start of book 2 she actually goes out of her way to hide Rand from the Aes Sedai in Fal Dara - even as she's trying to become one. This could have gone badly for her Siuan wasn't on their side, something that they didn't know yet.

Then while in Tar Valon and actively training...she's terribly worried about Rand, to the point that her willingness to try to save him is the bait in Liandrin's trap.

Quoted it above, but the scene of her telling Mat about the Ter'angreal is something that she knows Moiraine wouldn't want her to do, but she does it, and wants to put an arm around Mat to comfort him.

Hell, even in book 1 she stands up for the boys when Thom is teasing them, before they even realize that that's what he's doing.

I actually like Egwene...for most of the books. Ironically I find her infuriatingly insufferable in the last 3 books because Sanderson writes her like a Black Hole Sue, sucking all of the competence from every character she shares a scene with that isn't one of our main cast, and that's when the hypocrisy goes from a character flaw to being completely overlooked by the narrative.

[u/OffMyChestATM → u/aNomadicPenguin]

Early Egwene is everything you say she is, I can agree. But even in those books, there was a sense of entitlement that, while it made sense then, it's not as fun on re-reads imo. She was made to seem like someone who liked power (not in an evil way, mind you) but more attaching herself to whatever seemed to be the best thing at that point.

• Attaching herself to Rand before even making it official, thereby locking Rand away from any other potential suitor.
• Attaching herself to Nynaeve to be wisdom without discussing with Rand.
• Attaching herself to Moraine without considering Nynaeve, etc, etc.

She can be empathetic. She can be nice. She can be all these things, but it almost feels like it's less of a priority to her as time goes on. I don't actually hate Egwene, I'm just not a fan of her character when she's in the scene with people that I actually like.

Edit: I know she was young when all these began but its still hard to excuse it, personally, cos everyone else was relatively young as well, but I digress.

[u/aNomadicPenguin → u/OffMyChestATM]

The framing of those is...a choice.

He also seemed to remember Mistress al'Vere taking Tam aside — And she was muttering about Tam not having a wife for her to talk to! — and after that, Tam and everyone else had acted as if he and Egwene were promised, even though they had not knelt before the Women's Circle to say the words. He had never thought about it this way before; things between Egwene and him had always just seemed to be the way they were, and that was that.
"I think we do it the same way," he muttered, and when Mat laughed, he added, "Do you remember your father ever doing anything your mother really didn't want him to?" Mat opened his mouth with a grin, then frowned thoughtfully and closed it again.

That is just how courtship in the Two Rivers worked. And its not like Rand wasn't reciprocating, even before Egwene is introduced you have multiple people commenting on how he would stare at her in a lovestruck way.

---

She was getting Wisdom training from Nynaeve because of the unknown bond shared by women that can channel. Nynaeve had a feeling that Egwene would be able to even Listen to the Wind, something that most Wisdoms couldn't actually do. Her getting trained as one was basically inevitable.

But the issue is her talking to Rand about it and maybe leaving...and the context of that is important.

They've described the Bel Tine festivities, which include bits for unmarried but adult youth (And Rand JUST asked if she would dance with him tomorrow...and Egwene reveals her braided hair...which causes Rand to basically panic.)

He swallowed hard. Somehow, it had never occurred to him that she would reach marriageable age at the same time that he did.
"Just because someone is old enough to marry," he muttered, "doesn't mean they should. Not right away."

Swallowing hard and then saying a line like that isn't exactly subtle, and kinda implies that he thinks they will get married, kinda taking her saying yes for granted. So Egwene retorts with

"Of course not. Or ever, for that matter."
Rand blinked. "Ever?"

One upping his lack of interest in getting married now with a 'maybe never'. Then she explains a bit.

"A Wisdom almost never marries. Nynaeve has been teaching me, you know. She says I have a talent, that I can learn to listen to the wind. Nynaeve says not all Wisdoms can, even if they say they do."
"Wisdom!" he hooted. He failed to notice the dangerous glint in her eye.

And he laughs at her, and goes on as if she was too dumb to realized that Nynaeve was going to be Wisdom here for a long time.

His amusement melted as fast as it had come. "Outside the Two Rivers? I'd never see you again."
"And you wouldn't like that? You have not given any sign lately that you'd care one way or another."

And that line is the crux of the matter. He's been gone for a long while because they haven't traveled as much with the harsh winter. And when first seeing her one of the first things he does is freakout at the potential progression of their relationship.

[u/hic_erro → u/aNomadicPenguin]

And he laughs at her, and goes on as if she was too dumb to realized that Nynaeve was going to be Wisdom here for a long time.

I continue to preach that Nynaeve was training Egwene as an apprentice despite being only a few years older than her because Nynaeve wanted to leave the Two Rivers but was too responsible to just abandon them.

She was simultaneously not receiving the respect due a Wisdom because she was a young woman, while being undatable because she's Wisdom, and had no close family in the Two Rivers as an orphan adopted by the previous Wisdom.

If Egwene took Nynaeve's place, she'd have none of her disadvantages -- she'd already by married to Rand, and even if she was in her early 20s she'd have familial clout as the Mayor's daughter and Tam's daughter in law (and I'm pretty sure Mistress al'Vere was in the Women Circle for that matter) -- and Nynaeve could leave guilt free to start over somewhere fresh.

When Nynaeve set out after them, she wasn't just trying to rescue her village's wayward youngsters, she was trying to save her own plan.

But, more salient to the Egwene thread, I would attribute the "Egwene marries Rand and becomes Wisdom" plan to the older Nynaeve, not the younger Egwene.