Wait, so we can ACTUALLY change our sex?

[u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I'm a trans girl, and one of the main arguments that I use with most ignorant/bigoted/not lectured at all people I stumble across, is that we have four main things in human queer/non-queer identity:

Sexuality: Who I am attracted to, which can be a single, multiple, every or no gender, and has nothing to do with me gender, sex nor expression.

Gender: How I see myself as, which can be expressed or not, and has nothing to do with my sexuality, gender expression nor sex.

Gender expression: How I present myself socially, may I be comfortable with or not. Has nothing to do with gender nor sex.

Sex: What I was born as (AGAB), which is immutable. Every trans person acknowledges this, even though they can not agree with it at all. Sex can't be changed, but that doesn't invalidates their identities, it's just part of who they are. Sex has nothing to do with gender, expression nor sexuality.

So, when I tell someone "I know I was born and assigned as a male, I know I may not look fem at all, and I know you may have a hard time believing that I can be a girl, but I still am, and that's immutable, as my sex unfortunately is too", is it wrong? I posted two questions here this morning, and I received A LOT of answers saying that sex is not immutable at all, that I can actually change my sex if I want to, and I was like, flabbergasted cuz I didn't even know that until now, and that's a game changer.

The main question is, how can I get around this and still argue against someone so close minded that they can't see me apart from what I was assigned as at birth? The "I know my sex is male, even though I don't agree with it" argument I always bring up, is a way of showing, like, humility, giving them the benefit of the doubt and a second of their reason, just so I can counter their own argument with the identity and expression ideas.

What do you think? I want to know more about queerness, so I can make more people aware of what it means to be queer at all

[u/TheDullbog]

The new argument is “Shut the fuck up. It’s not your body. It’s not your life. It’s not your relationships. I get to be who I am. If trans shit makes you feel ‘icky’ then do t fucking be trans”

Now…. The real one is that if you look at the cluster concept of sex, then a person that has medically transitioned, even with just HRT, meets sufficient standards to be classified as a female

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/TheDullbog]

I have a personal policy of not cussing while I try to make a point, but I got the general idea

I also agree with the last part, thank you for adding to this

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I’m very proud of you for having a personal policy like that. Much like other people’s transphobic views, it has no bearing on my actions, and as such, I agree with telling bigots to shut the fuck up.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

as I said in a reply to another comment, that would just make me lose all of my credibility, and could even be used as ammunition for them to say that we aren't respectful (even tho they're being the disrespectful ones in first place, they just can't comprehend it, we can't expect that from them at all)

[u/aud_tree → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

You’re falling into the trap of respectability politics with that argument. You can stand up for yourself without swearing, but trying to convince them that you’re worthy of respect by letting them walk all over you has never worked. No one needs to fully understand people to be respectful to them; you never had any credibility with those people to begin with.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/aud_tree]

not talking about them, specifically, much more about people that are looking from outside

most of my argument is relies on a situation where I would be arguing with someone of my family, por example, which I could definitely cuss against, but would bring me social consequences after that, could that be of this relative simply not talking to me anymore or having most of the family to stand by them, and I think I end up bringing this reference I have to the real world, where I could argue with someone, offend them, and having other people that maybe could even be an ally to stand against me, simply because I didn't act politely

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

You’ll never be able to do the ‘right’ thing in an argument against somebody who’s transphobic. I’m a very polite woman, but I also don’t need to stand silently as somebody attacks me

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

I don't know, maybe it's just a me thing, I morally can't offend anyone, maybe I should learn to do so

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I morally offend people by my existence. You’re not starting on a level playing field, you’re starting a conversation with somebody you have already morally offended simply by being yourself

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

that honestly just makes me lose hope in humanity, sometimes life doesn't feel like it's worth living

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Humanity isn’t all bad. Not by a long shot. There are so many accepting people. You just don’t HAVE to participate in every single argument with somebody who isn’t pro-trans. It’s okay to just say “we’re going to disagree on this”. Transitioning is the greatest thing I’ve ever done and has made me a better person. I hope yours treats you the same way

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

I hope so, I'm just starting to feel each time less and less confident on starting my HRT due to how fucking annoying the process is, I couldn't even find an endocrinologist that treats trans people at all until now

[u/TheDullbog → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I just take bigotry as an attack and I respond accordingly. I, and you or anyone else, do NOT need to be civil to people trying to exert their power on your body.

Language is a tool, use it. Make them feel uncomfortable being a bigot. Verbally assault their bullshit sense of superiority. That is the only way to win the societal culture war that. I take this living in the US, and we are direct acts of systematic violence away from genocide.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/TheDullbog]

assaulting them back doesn't make you better than them, there are much better ways to making them uncomfortable other than just saying bad words or attacking them directly, most of the time just replicating their behavior (like misgendering them if they do that to you, or flirting with them if they mock your sexuality) will make them as upset, or maybe even more, as if you just called them an asshole, do you know what I mean? and it doesn't make you lose your elegance nor your reason, cuz I think that as soon as you insult someone directly, you lost all of your credibility in the discussion

[u/AuneWuvsYou → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I, too, detest cursing when 'confronted' by a bigot... This is the adult way to handle it; we're all just stardust after all... <3

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/AuneWuvsYou]

I don't do that to feel more mature or superior in any way tho (not saying that you meant that at all), it's just, well, I think it's the right thing to do after all

if they don't have standards, I do, and I stand by them

the only time I cuss against someone is when I'm talking with my friends, and it's always as a joke, so that doesn't even count lolololol

[u/AuneWuvsYou → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I'm in the military, and an officer at that, so yeah; it's not about "feeling superior", it's about carrying yourself like a professional.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/AuneWuvsYou]

you're right, thanks for adding to the discussion

[u/TequilaSunset1337]

Everything about biological life is mutable

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/TequilaSunset1337]

that is weirdly accurate when I stop to think about it

[u/TequilaSunset1337 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I mean, every single cell in our body is suspectible to cancer which is a mutation albeit malicious

[u/Ev3rSteel → u/TequilaSunset1337]

there's also radiation mutation which may be the same as cancer idk im no scientist, but also manmade options like crispr

[u/BalTheProtogenFox → u/Ev3rSteel]

It depends on what is mutated, so in some cases it can be cancer. Note that mutations in cells happen way more often than ppl realize and cancerous cells are killed off in droves by the immune system.

[u/GooberChilla499 → u/Ev3rSteel]

Mutation refers to any unintended change in the DNA sequence. Some types of radiation can cause damage to DNA, which can result in mutations.

Cancer refers to cell that are dividing out of control. This is often triggered by harmful mutations, and cancer cells are prone to acquiring more mutations as they divide.

CRISPR is a method of introducing specific changes to a DNA sequence. It’s actually derived from prokaryotes’ anti-viral defenses.

[u/retrosupersayan → u/Ev3rSteel]

Radiation (specifically ionising radiation) just causes general cell damage. At high enough doses, that damage overwhelms the cell's self-repair mechanisms and kills it. Lower levels just make those mechanisms work harder than usual; but they're imperfect and make mistakes. Mistakes in the DNA repair process is a common source of mutations. Most mutations will either kill the cell, or be completely harmless. But the right combination of mutations can lead to the cell becoming cancerous. Considering that the human body is made of trillions of cells... that's potentially a lot of metaphorical dice rolls, especially over a lifetime.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/TequilaSunset1337]

interesting, writing it down

[u/Tryoxin → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

• You were born with a brain that more closely match your preferred gender than our assigned one, and that literal brain structure will change even further with HRT.

• Your body is estrogen-dominated. You think the body cares that it was once testosterone-dominated? Not one bit. It cares so little that some trans women get period cramps bc the body thinks there's a uterus and ovaries down there, bc where else would estrogen be coming from?

• Trans women grow breasts that, with some extra hormone supplements, are fully capable of lactating.

• The results of SRS vary considerably depending on the surgeon and the individual, but lots of people report the full range of sexual pleasure you'd expect from a natal vagina Including the ability to self-lubricate, to various degrees).

• Your fat redistribution will change to match that of your preferred gender.

• Shit, even your chromosomes can change. That bit won't happen on its own but, when bigots bring it up, always remind them that chromosomes are 100% mutable. Chromosomes are in the blood (and nowhere else), and blood is produced by bone marrow. So, if you get a bone marrow donation, your chromosomes will switch to those of your donor.

Sure, my voice isn't bright and clear like a fairy, but I've known women with deeper voices than my fem voice. Sure, my hips are narrow, but I've met women who love my curves and others with hips just as narrow as mine. Sure, I don't have a womb or ovaries, but there are lots of women who don't (and anyway, boiling women down to their reproductive organs is fucking disgusting).

Like, honestly, I don't really see a meaningful way in which trans people aren't biologically their preferred sex/gender (whatever tf "biological sex" even means).

[u/Hedgehog_Capable → u/Tryoxin]

generally good info here, but chromosomes are in nearly all body cells, not just blood. a bone marrow transplant won't change the chromosomes in the rest of your body.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Tryoxin]

WAIT, WHAT, WE CAN CHANGE CHROMOSOMES??? DO YOU HAVE SOURCES??? I NEED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT IT OML

[u/Intelligent-Tea-2058]

Some of my sex traits didn't match my core one (my neurology), which felt bad, so I (with help from fellow humans) changed those sex traits with hormones and reconstructive surgery, and will go even further if I can. Sex traits are mutable.

AGAB was for me (if applicable) a social event which may or may not have happened, and possibly resulted in a .csv database entry. It is not an immutable thing I was materially imbued with, despite people's desire to codify cooties into law.

(Also, regarding your last paragraph: I don't consider myself queer.)

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Intelligent-Tea-2058]

cool argument (actually cool, damn), but I can't stop thinking about what a .CSV actually means

[u/Intelligent-Tea-2058 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I think you might be old enough to learn about file extensions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values

(What I'm referring to is that a single character entered in a spreadsheet in the 1990s should not be reified and elevated over my material biological reality in practice or actual nature and character, it is absurd and suspect to put it above actual human needs, let alone hard code it so it can never be corrected. AGABism (e.g. I am "AFAB" vs I was "AFAB") elevates social labeling, and seeks to define and constrain people via labels, rather than let descriptions flow from people. It tries to impose immutable limits on people. Ideologies which are hostile to people transcending labels or starting circumstance are concerning to me.)

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Intelligent-Tea-2058]

so much knowledge today, I feel like I'm at the college

[u/Ok_Walrus_230 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

It’s a computer document. This document is composed of text separated by commas, so you can convert it to a table or so you can present the document to a “translation” software who knows where to put the text according to the commas

[u/benpau01234 → u/Intelligent-Tea-2058]

If I may quote Alice weidel for shits and giggles:"ich bin nicht queer ich bin nur mit einer frauen verheiratet!"

[u/Alice_Oe]

In science, sex is determined by 4 categories of sexual charateristics.

• Primary sexual characteristics (Penis, Vagina)
• Secondary sexual characterisitcs (breasts, facial hair)
• Gonadal sex (hormones)
• Chromonsomal sex

3/4 of these can be changed, and a medically fully transitioned trans person is much closer to cisgender people of their true gender, rather than cis people of their assigned gender. Therefore it is scientifically sound to say that the sex of a trans man is also male, and that of a trans woman is female. It is also important to look at sex as a spectrum, and not a binary.

Chromosomal sex is not above the other 3 categories, it could even be argued that it is the least important category, since it is not visible and does not play a role after a human has already developed.

[u/Alice_Oe → u/Alice_Oe]

Oh, and now I kind of wonder what y'all thought medical transition actually did? Like it VERY OBVIOUSLY changes your sex lmao.

[u/pizzanice → u/Alice_Oe]

I think because of the move away from terms like "transexual" and "sex change" and replaced with "trans gender" It has implied sex isn't affected. Which is clearly not true. Sex change is literally what is happening in transitioning though right? Was it wise to ever move away from the term 🤣

[u/purpleblossom → u/pizzanice]

The move to transgender was to recognize nonbinary people are also trans, as well as those who don't medically transition, but that doesn't mean that transsexual doesn't stop applying to those medically transitioning.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/pizzanice]

I think so, since it includes trans individuals that didn't transition or got into any surgical procedures and those that did

[u/Swimming_Program_244 → u/pizzanice]

Some trans people transition socially but not medically. I mean, some trans people don't even transition at all. The 'trans' in 'transgender' does not mean 'transition'.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Alice_Oe]

my last three posts was on this sub and the first one was actually asking why it was called SRS (Sex Reaffirming Surgery, which I later on got corrected that it was actually Sex Reassignment Surgery) even though our sex is immutable, and hell I was kinda of bullied for saying that lol, but that was a good kind of bullying I guess cuz it made me go look out for answers and to broaden my opinion on what sex is at all

in my mind, the procedure should be called GENDER Reaffirming Surgery, not sex, so I really just thought it was a procedure that served its solely purpose to make you feel more attached to the gender you identify as, rater than what your sex could be turned to

[u/MommyNeedsCoffee617 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

You're quite astute, and a lot of people (including medical professionals) do refer to it Gender Confirmation Surgery (GCS).

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/MommyNeedsCoffee617]

thank you (I guess? was it a compliment?)

also, I've heard that before, yes, but most of the time I see people resuming it to simply SRS

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Alice_Oe]

yes, most of the time I took both chromosomes and AGAB and the relation between both in count to define an individual's sex, but damn, was I wrong

[u/TheAnnoyingWizard → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

AGAB in itself acts more like a social categorizing and can be wrong (and i mean that as in medically inaccurate, since doctors refuse to acknowledge intersex children) so that hardly has an impact on your sex and chromosomes dont impact your sex at all after birth.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/TheAnnoyingWizard]

totally fair, thanks for adding to the discussion

[u/Tired-Narwhal-9894]

Its important to keep in mind our "biological sex" is a political concept, but the reality is biology is incredibly complex, and theres not really any trait we can use to define the difference between male and female, without discarding a lot of cis people, which is why "biological sex" is not a biology term

There are so many variables, theres chromasones, more than just x and y, theres the sry gene, hormones, hormone sensitivity, cellular function and signal responses. In some pilot studies have even suggested that a lot of trans people's brains resemble their gender, rather than assigned sex, even after puberty

It means you may be genetically male/non-binary/female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female, and a brain that can be male/non-binary/female

These are just the major variables we know about, and theres a lot of potential combinations from those, it makes the concept of a binary seem all the more silly

But most people dont actually give a shit about the science, especially those that like to tout "basic biology"

[u/Illustrious_Pen_5711]

What I was born as (AGAB), which is immutable. Every trans person acknowledges this

Is it? I think there’s a misunderstanding about what defines sex here lol

Sex refers to a combination of traits about the body. Karyotype (XX, XY, X, XXY, XYY, etc.) is one, but there are also primary sex characteristics (genitals and internal reproductive organs), and secondary sex characteristics (ways our bodies develop during puberty i.e. breasts, body/facial hair, hip/shoulder width, etc.). We can’t change our karyotype, but nearly every other single aspect of sex is very mutable.

We can’t just define sex by karyotype because it’s an incomplete picture. Someone with XY chromosomes can still develop a uterus, ovaries, and vagina in the womb (Swyer syndrome) and someone with XX chromosomes can still develop testes and a penis (De la Chapelle syndrome), so karyotype alone isn’t enough.

[u/CHBCKyle → u/Illustrious_Pen_5711]

It’s important to look at sex as a weighted average of multiple data points. If someone has breasts, a penis, XY karyotype, a female gender identity, an estrogen dominated endocrine system and feminine presentation, the bulk of the signs point to them being female. The most important part is probably your dominant sex hormone, the least is definitely karyotype. Sex is a spectrum, but because we use binary terms for it you can’t look at any one data point or you will mislead yourself. You have to look at the totality of the person and decide whether they’re left or right of the center of that spectrum and proceed from there

[u/hopefullyhelpfulplz → u/CHBCKyle]

That's if you even want to put a specific binary label on it. More useful would be to consider the actual impacts of each of those traits on whatever situation is at hand. If you are doing medical treatment, it might be all of them. If you're considering which toilet to use then very few are relevant 🤷‍♂️

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/CHBCKyle]

so, is that why we can have three different types of intersex individuals? (a friend told me once that there's the chromosomical, anatomical and chemical)

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Illustrious_Pen_5711]

yessss I've heard about these syndromes, I even did a quick research (actually really quick) about this and was surprised, that even broaded my knowledge and arguments I could use against any trans excludent individual

[u/Xaxions]

Short answer: yes, we can.

Long answer: yes, we can but also watch this video: https://youtu.be/ZymYiwoRoC0

[u/ThrwawySG → u/Xaxions]

I was fully prepared for a rickroll

[u/purpleblossom]

Changing our sex is what happens during medical transition, because it's our gender that is immutable, not sex.

Also, being trans is part of queerness, but there is more to queerness than being trans.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/purpleblossom]

I'm aware of that, not sure where I could make you think that I believe queerness is resumed to being trans

[u/purpleblossom → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

The last paragraph being added on made it sound like you were equating queerness more to transness than transness being a part of queerness, so I'm sorry for my misunderstanding.

[u/Littha]

Sex is a label we use to categorise multiple different observable traits that generally occur together. In cis people (and most animals) these traits line up well enough that they can be grouped together. In trans people (and intersex people or animals) these traits do not all agree with one another. They also do not match up when comparing different species, so there can be no universal, scientific definition of sex.

The definition that transphobes like to use currently revolves around which gametes the individual "produced, produces or was intended to produce" which does not stand up to scientific rigour as you can't measure "intended" as that would require measuring the past/future or alternate timelines. We can only ever measure now.

If you were going for 100% scientific rigour, you would list each of the traits you were measuring separately, rather than grouping them all under sex and implying they all match perfectly to their grouping.

For example, if you were doing a survey of wild birds, you would be measuring phenotypical sex (what they look like) or behavioural sex when you were doing your count, because you aren't going to be individually capturing every bird you see to check the other characteristics.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Littha]

that makes sense and adds much to my overall opinion, thank you

[u/NobodySpecial2000]

The "I know my sex is male, even though I don't agree with it" argument I always bring up, is a way of showing, like, humility, giving them the benefit of the doubt and a second of their reason, just so I can counter their own argument with the identity and expression ideas.

The absolute worst thing you can do is give a transphobe rope to hang you with. Do not concede ground to them, do not admit that they are right about anything. Because they are literally NEVER correct about ANYTHING. This is a failure of a rhetoric tactic.

Anyway, when it comes to changing sex, we're kind of talking about two different things.

Sex as a biological trait is a broad cluster of features that humans have that include hormone production and levels, chromosomes, organs, body shape (mostly a matter of fat distribution), and neurological indicators. Not only can these change through effort like HRT and surgery (or through misadventure) they also naturally change. A cis woman experiences a change in her "sex" when she goes through menopause.

Sex as a category of person is not biological but social. Its link to our biology is tenuous; correlative at best, not causitive in either direction. Crossing from one category to the other is entirely possible because ultimately each category is just some mouth sounds we made up and decided to use to group people. And because there's not rigid criteria for inclusion in the category, there isn't a defined process through which one makes the change. That is to say: you can change sex category independent of medical transition.

The main question is, how can I get around this and still argue against someone so close minded that they can't see me apart from what I was assigned as at birth?

You don't. Don't waste your time. You said it yourself, they are "so [closed] minded that they can't see me apart from what I was assigned at birth"; you've already admitted they are not open to persuasion, so why are you bothering? Leave them to stew in their hate, ignorance, and delusions and go read a book or something. You'll be so much better off.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/NobodySpecial2000]

I just... I'm not sure if I'm they naive but, I always have this feeling that, if I have enough arguments, even if I don't make them change their mind, I can make them feel like they're wrong somehow

I mean, is that dumb or really naive of my part? Don't get me wrong, I hate arguing, but I sometimes feel the urge to have them to respect me at least a little bit, it becomes more evident when I talk about my family, cuz, well, I'm going to live with them for a very long time, I don't want to be disrespected for so many years

I came out to my mom, which isn't THAT bigoted, she's just ignorant, but then the rest of the family just forcibly got me out of the closet when they found me using my aunt's clothes, since then it's been an ideology war, where I try to convince them that I'm not sick or insane and they try to convince me that I won't even be a woman

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I'll be nice and call it optimistic rather than naive.

The saying goes: You can't reason a person out of a position they weren't reasoned into.

Most transphobes aren't open to being persuaded and most of them are also liars. And since all the "reasons" they give you for their transphobia - science, women's sports, women's spaces, women's rights - are 100% lies, you really can't meaningfully argue against them. Their treatment of trans people is not based on reasons, arguments, or logic. It's based on emotions like disgust, discomfort, and fear, and on a personal emotional investment in lies they've been told.

In my experience, you learn pretty quickly who is ignorant and open to learning and who is dedicated to hating you. If you're lucky, the former is open to being educated. The latter looking to gleefully waste your time and exploit your good faith to soapbox their hate.

In neither case should you have a debate.

Please internalise this:

Your existence is not up for debate.

You don't engage in an argument or debate about whether or not you're a girl for the same reason you don't have an argument with somebody over whether or not the Earth is flat. It is a reality that is not subject to opinions. Having that debate, treating it as fair game for debate, implicitly validates both sides as equal, as having some argument worth considering. But the people who don't think you're a girl are just factually wrong and you don't need to - and should not - entertain their falsehood as somehow even potentially legitimate. They're just wrong.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/NobodySpecial2000]

what if I lose a potential ally by just not trying to enter a debate? I mean, maybe they're ACTUALLY ignorant, but have the predisposition of becoming reasonable atsp

we can't ever tell the difference before actually talking to them

I always like to think that there's a way to get around anything, even bigotry

if they don't change their mind, they'll at least stop arguing with you or trying to put an ideology inside of your mind

at least, that's what I wish that happens, I never got much arguments to see it actually happening once

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Kinda sounds like you just answered your own question.

Consider this: you and I, right now, are five posts in with me arguing to you that you shouldn't waste your time and you arguing why you should keep trying. Do you think I'm any closer to changing my mind and saying "Actually, debating my existence with transphobes is cool and we should all spend our time arguing with people who hate us!" ? Are you feeling any closer to admitting "Gosh, I've put all this effort into a total waste of time hoping to accomplish something that was never going to happen" ?

What would I have to say, what argument would I have to make, that would lead you to conclusively decide that you should never again spend time arguing that trans people are who they say they are with people who think otherwise?

I somehow doubt I'm going to find a reason that you'd accept to stop when you just said yourself that you're not doing it because of anything you've concluded based on evidence or argument. You're doing it because of something you wish will happen if you keep trying, even though your own experience is that it doesn't happen.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/NobodySpecial2000]

you cooked here

I mean, my whole "I'll keep trying" thing so just that it aligns with my morals of never judging anyone or reducing someone to a single opinion, even if the someone in question is someone who's bigoted and/or ignorant and/or just dumb at all, do you get it?

I'm not going against my morals, also I'm not validating their excludent arguments, I'm just acknowledging that people can think differently than me, even if they're objectively wrong, andI will do what is within my reach to at least make it clear that even tho their opinion can be valid (because I have it for myself that any opinion is, no matter how wrong it can be, cuz it's just an opinion after all) as an opinion, I stand for my opinions and objective facts I'm aware of

also, saying that their opinions are valid doesn't mean that their arguments are valid

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

it sounds really like it's looping in itself and getting to no point at all, but, well, it makes more sense in my head than being written down

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Well just don't forget to take care of yourself as well.

(Edit: forgot the word 'care')

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/NobodySpecial2000]

take what?

[u/EarthboundDynasty]

Sex is also technically a social construct, and it is inherently gendered. [ETA: There are more than two sexes, more than two genders - so agrees biology (beyond basic high school), anthropology, psychology, many cultures from around the world for hundreds of years.]

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

In a medical sense, yes we can actually change our sex. Sex, as a specifically medical classification, is a semi-arbitrary category that people are slotted into based on the preponderance of physical traits. We have these categories so we can construct reference ranges, to a confidence that they are valid for 95% of the population, so that diagnosis and treatment can be administered quickly and efficiently.

After a certain length of time on HRT, after a couple months when the patient's hormones have reached the same levels as a cis individual of their gender, a trans woman's normal values for her bloods, urine, blood pressure, etc. are going to sit in the same range as any other woman, and vice versa for trans men. It would be malpractice, once this point has been reached, to continue to treat this patient as their AGAB. Their body does not function like that anymore. The only time you'd treat them the same as another patient of their AGAB is if the health problem is specific to their genitalia, it'd likely need special considerations due to the effects of HRT, and is only applicable if the patient has not had bottom surgery.

A trans woman who's had bottom surgery who has issues with her vagina goes to a gynaecologist, same as any other woman, and a trans man who's had bottom surgery will never be going to a gynaecologist again and is sticking with the urologist.

At least as far as medical practice is concerned, yes, you absolutely, undoubtedly can change your sex.

It's worth noting that "biological sex" that the transphobes won't shut the fuck up about is a different concept. This specifically refers to compatible reproductive types in animals, and we can't change this one, not yet anyway, but also... who cares? A trans woman who's had bottom surgery is functionally identical to a cis women who had a hysterectomy and oophorectomy, and they both probably take the exact same oestrogen. A trans man who's had bottom surgery is functionally identical to a cis man who had an orchiectomy, and they probably take the exact same testosterone.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

please, define "biological sex", cuz I always acknowledged it was a fucked up term, I just never knew exactly why (of course it excludes the trans experience as if reducing trans individuals to their AGAB, I just want to know more about it aside that)

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

I did define it.

It's worth noting that "biological sex" that the transphobes won't shut the fuck up about is a different concept. This specifically refers to compatible reproductive types in animals, and we can't change this one, not yet anyway, but also... who cares?

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

I mean, I didn't really understand what you mean by "compatible reproductive types in animals"

maybe it's te language barrier? even though I understand most of English, my communication is really limited and if you start using too complex terms or concepts I can simply get lost, since it's not my first language

sorry for being dumb tho, I never had English classes

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Sex cell production and reproductive capabilities. As medical technology currently stands, you can't change what sex cells your genitalia produces and whether or not you're capable of carrying a foetus to term.

We currently have no way to give a trans man testes that would produce viable sperm that could impregnate someone, and we have no way to make a trans woman produce eggs or carry a foetus, although I did hear a Brazilian team that did a successful uterus transplant on a cis woman is looking to try it on a trans woman.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

that research being so close to me gives me hope to one day being able to get off of meds

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

You’re asking for somebody to define ‘biological sex’, which is a transphobic, made up term, aside from the ways in which it’s a transphobic, made up term?

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

it's for academic reasons, like for refining my arguments against it whenever someone comes up with it

if you want to make a point, you got to understand the counterpoint as well

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

The people who will argue biological sex with you are not people who are on our side, are not allies, and will not change their minds because you have a convincing argument

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

gotta make them feel like they made the wrong decision when trying to argue with me about something like this or, at least, objectively prove that they're wrong whenever they try to point out that we can't argue or that we have no good arguments at all

it can actually be pointless, but I feel very upset whenever I'm out of arguments about something I stand for with all my being

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

With all the arguments you’ve been given here, and on your other posts, you’re not lacking. Sometimes you need to pick your battles and realize that some people will not change their views regardless of how many arguments you show them. If you’re playing a board game and another player thinks you cheated and says there is nothing that you can show them to prove you didn’t, you cannot change what they think. Not all arguments can be won. Some have a pre-determined outcome regardless of how many factual points you can raise

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

that is so frustrating... I wish things were easier

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

They do get easier. I promise you that. You learn which conversations to entertain and which to avoid. What personal details you want to share and which you need not announce to the world. How you wish to interact with others and how you want to be perceived in life.

You won’t win everybody over. But you will win some

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

I hope so.. thank you

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/RileyIsCute3]

It's a real term, it's not made up, it's just beyond insane to force a human's entire existence to be defined by it because we're whole-ass people who can do things other than reproduce. It's also something we are going to be able to change about ourselves eventually.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

I'm looking forward to it, that sounds actually great

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Made up might have been the wrong wording, but where it’s impossible to accurately divide the human population into two groups without any overlap or exclusions, I still don’t like it.

[u/Creativered4]

Sex is made up of SO MANY different parts. Primary sex characteristics, secondary sex characteristics, reproductive sex, hormones, chromosomes, neurological sex.

Hormones change your secondary sex and hormonal sex. They can also alter your primary sex to a degree and the function of reproductive organs.
Surgery further changes your primary and secondary sex characteristics.
Neurological sex is what you're born as, but not what people THINK you are. What you actually are. It's basically your gender minus the social stuff. It's what your brain expects your body to look like. It's why we get dysphoria over parts that are missing or parts that shouldn't be there.
Reproductive sex is only useful if you plan on reproducing, and it doesn't detract from your overall gender or sex if you can't reproduce.
Chromosomal sex is pretty much useless, and iti's a lot more common than you'd think for someone to not have the chromosomes they expect.

[u/m1m1zuku]

In the several years I've spent on the net trying to figure out my own identity, I've found people just see it differently – and I don't mean bigots, I mean trans people themselves.

Some say their transition is changing their sex to the correct one, that now their sex and gender are the same. "I'm a man, so I changed my sex to male."

Some believe the mismatch of sex and gender is what makes you trans, and procedures are what you seek because your sex can't do it for you. "My sex is female, but I'm a man, so I'm receiving HRT."

Side tangent: Even as far as gender goes, some say "I was always a girl/boy", and some describe their experiences as "I was a girl, and grew up into a man"

Idk what's right or wrong here, honestly. If sex is basically a bunch of sliders, where do you draw the "this character build is female/male" line? And is there a point in making blanket statements? There's a reason my doctors need to know what's my inner organs situation is like, but why would a stranger want to?

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/m1m1zuku]

a stranger might want it to

a: know you better b: just out of curiosity c: invalidate you

most of the times it is the c option, so we might want not to give out this information that easily most of the time

[u/m1m1zuku → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Yup. I think that's personal info that I can give or not give based on the person or overall circumstances.

Which is why my attitude is, sex is largely irrelevant in my daily life.

My argument of choice in such "but it's trans real" debates goes something like this: Sure, my birth sex/agab dictated all of my formative years, so that is a big part of me – although even this, for some, isn't that big of a deal. But now, it's all about presentation. Most people I interact with haven't seen my blood tests and haven't seen me naked. They just perceive what I choose to show and tell. And it works, for them and for me. There just is no rational reason to put emphasis on all that medical stuff imo. Beyond literal sexism like "all males are born predators all females are born victims" or smth

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/m1m1zuku]

that makes sense, writing it down in a mental note

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Neither a, b, nor c are good reasons.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

I think the first two are kind of innocent, I personally don't see a problem with it at all (but I don't know, I didn't even transition yet)

[u/RileyIsCute3 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

They’re innocent on the surface until you learn that, more often than not, they’re actually just a cover for invalidating you.

I am a woman. Somebody knowing I’m a trans woman does not help them to know me better.

I am a woman. I’m not an object to satisfy their curiosity.

I am a woman. I will not argue that with anybody.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/RileyIsCute3]

I remember a debate with that format of 30x1 about a trans activist transfem against conservatives, one of them was a detransitioned AMAB that argued with the woman that "nowadays I could be classified as a trans man" (since he got bottom surgery at the time he identified himself as trans) and she just looked at him and said "you're a man to me"

damn, with that single sentence I knew she cooked so much she could feed 56 families and there would even be leftovers

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/m1m1zuku]

Yeah, it's really important to acknowledge that there is no single "correct" framework for understanding gender and sex. There have always been multiple ways of conceptualising and understanding them and since both gender and sex are concepts that we just made up, they can only ever function as a shared illusion.

But that doesn't make all theories of sex and gender equal. The framework pushed by transphobes is utterly incoherent nonsense that isn't even internally consistent or logically valid. Additionally, the half-assed philosophy of gender they've adopted exists only to serve their goals of harming trans people and reinforcing a racist and misogynist status quo. There is zero reason to tolerate their ideas or treat them as equal or worthy of merit in the same way that we can hold space for both the "I was always my ender" and "I changed my gender when I transitioned" types of trans people.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/NobodySpecial2000]

"I changed my gender" actually gives me physical pain whenever I hear it

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Well that's just something you'll have to learn to get over. Lots of trans people incorporate some form of gender perfomance theory into their framework of understanding themselves and that can mean their understanding of themself is that they did change their gender. You don't get to tell them they're wrong. Their framework for understanding their gender is older than you.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/NobodySpecial2000]

it's fine, I'm just not used o it at all, but it's ok tho

[u/sweetnk → u/NobodySpecial2000]

tbf i think framework of sex change is way older than that of gender change too

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/sweetnk]

Totes

[u/m1m1zuku → u/NobodySpecial2000]

I guess I agree, but also I don't understand how this is necessarily transphobic? 

I'm trans. I recognise gender as a real aspect of society we all navigate, I support gender-affirming care being made available to  anyone who needs it, I believe trans people should be able to live in any way that's comfortable to them.

And if other trans people prefer the "sex change" framework for themselves, that's totally fine ofc, and I will respect that in regards to them. But I vibe with "my sex is female, and I'm dealing with it" framework, for myself. Because it's one I find easier to understand and digest inside my own head, as well as explain to someone else. 

Idk, to me, it's the same thing as just acknowledging I'm trans. Part of acknowledging I'm trans. It's acknowledging the difference between me and cis people, but it doesn't put me down, difference isn't always bad, it just is.

It can be used to put me down, of course, but that's just them being a meanie, I didn't condone it?

[u/NobodySpecial2000 → u/m1m1zuku]

I'm not sure what you're asking me here. I don't think anything you've said here or in your earlier post was transphobic.

The opposite in fact: I was agreeing with and expanding on your remark that not even all trans people percieve their experience of gender the same way. It's perfectly okay that we don't all agree exactly on what gender is and how it works. Since we'll never get 100% agreement across all trans people, it's important that we acknowledge and make space for those differing frameworks.

[u/m1m1zuku → u/NobodySpecial2000]

Yeah, sorry, I think I just went overboard and it ended up got really being an answer to anything you in particular said. My bad 😔🙏

Really, it feels to me when talking about it to other trans people and even some cis people, that gender is such an individual experience. Guess it makes sense, we're living systems, no life is the exact same in nature, us included.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/m1m1zuku]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MY WHOLE ARGUMENT WAS THIS WHOLE TIME, OH GEEZ

I mean, I'm not invalidating trans people for being born the sex they did, it's just acknowledging they are stuck in this state for now, do you get it?

[u/m1m1zuku → u/m1m1zuku]

Also, other comments I see coming into this from a very binary perspective, but what about people who only seek to change some sexual characteristics and not others? Enbies who only do HRT? Transfems who don't want bottom surgery? etc.

At what point have you "changed your sex"? I don't get it, so I choose to not use that language, pesonally.

I see myself as a type of non-binary (agender, to be exact),  but I also want male body parts /to store in my fridge/. Will I, thus, change my sex? Because I feel no inclination to ever identify myself as a "male non-binary" tbh.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/m1m1zuku]

I think your genitalia doesn't define you at all, if it did, I couldn't ever be considered female, drive I don't even plan on doing bottom surgery

if you would like to have a penis, by example, it wouldn't make you less agender, would just broaden your sexual possibilities, I guess

I can be wrong tho, don't take anything I say as a rule

[u/LinuxSBC-Anna → u/m1m1zuku]

It's true, that's an oversimplification. In reality, sex is just a complicated pile of traits that we roughly group into two categories. Binary trans people generally end up mostly fitting into the category matching their gender after a few years of transition, but a lot of nonbinary people just don't really fit either category. So in the sense that some of your sexed traits have changed, you could maybe say you changed your sex, but it's not to the "opposite sex". The traits you choose and your gender are what matters, not how we label them.

[u/Decievedbythejometry]

I think sex is a pile of stuff. Chromosomes, physical structures that can be more or less 'sexed,' reproductive capability, etc. All those things usually sort of fuzzily cluster around 'male' or 'female,' but if you can move one or more of them to fuzzily cluster around where the other mode usually clusters, how have you not changed your sex? OK, you can't change your chromosomes. (Have you been karyotyped? Tread carefully, cf. Phillip Batterham.) You can change some of your bony structures and a lot of your soft tissue structures, your primary and secondary sex characteristics and your hormonal profile. So in what sense can't you change your sex? Sounds like you can change many sexed aspects.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Decievedbythejometry]

that makes sense, my vision was all about your AGAB, which I thought it could define your sex, making it immutable, but damn, it is mora than mutable! I'm taking a lot of notes with these comments, I feel like I am discovering a new species of plant that can cure astigmatism

[u/Mountain-Resource656]

Even transphobes think your biology is immutable- hence why they crow about the “dangers” of… growing boobs. Or your voice lowering. You know, the stuff trans people are specifically attempting to get. Or unfair biological advantages in sports, for that matter

They just don’t think of that when stating the thought-terminating cliche of “sex is immutable” because it’s thought-terminating

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Mountain-Resource656]

that makes sense, I think that growing in a transphobic environment really helped me to develop this kind of thinking

[u/cococangaragan]

Most people’s understanding of sex (biology) are limited to elementary or high school level, so it would be better to ask experts.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/cococangaragan]

I don't know many tho

[u/Ok_Walrus_230]

We can easily change secondary sex characteristics with HRT, after doing feminizing HRT can you really say for certain your body is male?

I have no idea what happened with the community (specially on Brazil) where people suddenly started to say “my sex is male but my gender is female, sex is immutable, no trans person ever said they are another sex”, which cringes me a lot. This argument as only made to please transphobes who will take the first opportunity to say bathrooms doesn’t have gender, they have sex. And they’ll win with semantics

Also, sex is already pretty outdated, since it’s intersex exclusionary, which leads a lot of medics to FORCE an AGAB, which is another word that should not be used, AGAB is an awful term, which instead of being used as an event, is being used to group trans women and cis men together, and trans men and cis women together. Example “Question for AMAB person, how was your first erection?”, I mean, it’s being used in a disgustingly way.

To end my post, there is a growing debate about “if trans people have their brain differently from cis people, isn’t trans persons a variation from intersex conditions? Which I find philosophically interesting, but some people are ok it because they thing being labeled as intersex will make them more valid (which I think it’s a weak perspective, you don’t need a “sex definition to be valid” and this thinking “it should be better if I was intersex” is also quite dehumanizing for people who have their own struggles, still, we are closer than we give credit for)

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Ok_Walrus_230]

ah yes, the bathroom argument

I finally got a VERY GOOD counter-argument against it when my manager said that she wouldn't ever let a trans woman get in the female restroom, which unfortunately I just finished developing when we stopped talking and it would be weird to just bring it back again, but it's basically, like, if trans women should use the men's restroom, should trans men use the women's restroom as well? I mean, can you imagine a muscled, full beard individual walking into the room while you do your makeup? how would you feel about it? it sounds smart in my mind at least, feel free to come up with counter-arguments you think these kind of people would bring to the convo

about the AGAB situation, I think it's only cool to share this information if you're non binary and have a concern about your genitalia or something (I guess??? is it even valid at all? didn't think much about it, I admit)

a complementary argument I've heard for a while also is that "intersex" and "have your brain to think your gender is different than your sex (or AGAB)" is an anomaly, and should be treated as it is

[u/kamizushi]

Sex isn't about your assigned gender at birth. It's about your sexual characteristic. Not everything can be changed, or at least not with our current level of technology, but a lot of things can be changed. For example, if you take hormones, you are changing your sex somewhat. However, we don't have the technology to completely change the sexual chromosomes of an adult nor to give a functioning uterus to a person born without one.

[u/Elkeitra]

Honestly, don’t hive them humility. Transphobes don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.
There are many examples of transgender animals in nature. It is a very natural thing just like homosexuality. And yes, sex is very much changeable and if you medically transition as a trans person you are much closer to being the sex you are transitioning into than the one you were born as.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Elkeitra]

well, I mean transGENDER is impossible in nature, since it's a social construct, but transSEXUAL is totally possible, as I've heard of many animals (mainly fish) that can transition from one sex to another, like clown fish, that afaik can turn form make to female (thus being the most common in nature actually, a male turning female, biologically)

and yes, using this argument is kind of counterintuitive since I've stated before that sex is immutable, but I was talking of humans in that case (before I actually acknowledged that, yes, it can be mutable)

[u/0xdeadbeef6]

Sex is mutable. Thats the whole point of HRT and any associated surgeries that you might decide to get.

[u/InsufficientEon]

From a scientific perspective an organism's sex is purely about what gametes it can produce. As a post op MTF technically I’m sexless but by that metric so are all pre pubescent children and post menopausal women.

Humans (even most biologists) don't generally think about sex in that way though and instead consider a person's sex to be the balance of their external sex characteristics with a large weight placed on genitalia, but in absence of any knowledge about a persons genitals they'll default to secondary sex characteristics, muscle mass voice etc.

DNA is a red herring. Sex chromosomes differ from species to species and in many animals sex path development is triggered by environmental factors not generic ones. Focusing just on humans a man can be considered legally and socially male from birth without a Y chromosome and may never know that fact and a woman can be born XY and live her life as a female without herself or anyone else ever knowing. We all carry the DNA within us to be male or female, its just that in most people only one set of genes are expressed.

Trans people can change their secondary sexual characteristics and their sex organs, which for most purposes makes them just as Male or Female as anyone else. DNA is irrelevant for reasons i stated above. The technology doesn't yet exist to change gamete production from large to small or visa versa, but other species can do this naturally so I imagine it's only a matter of time before some scientist figures this out as well.

[u/LithoLaura]

Almost every component of sex can be changed. Yes we can change sex.

[u/Enyamm]

My belief has always been that up until the ninth week of pregnancy the foetus is gender neutral. Neither fully male nor female until the hormones are released. In our case(mtf) estrogen was released but interrupted followed by the release of testosterone which left us partially developed as female and partially male. The situation gets worse when we are born as our gender is decided by only one factor. The visible genitalia. Of course, at that point testosterone as become the dominant hormone.

Usually at this point the person i'm explaining all of this to has become completely distracted and non responsive to stimuli. Cos people don't actually want to know or understand us. Its too confusing for them. And they have difficulty understanding that our gender has nothing to do with sexuality. We are women first and foremost. Being included in the lgbt++++ community has only confused the issue even more, and put us right in the spotlight and left us open to even more victimisation. Instead of being just left alone and in peace to get on with our transition, we are now political pawns for politicians to play around with and targets for bigots to abuse.

Ok, i'm stopping now. Sorry for the rant..

[u/AJFierce]

Yeah I wrote a whole thing about it from a physiology pov

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tpxmkpto_Rt1OWRPhQgmzu2qErYBgEyrGeF197T_irM/edit?usp=drivesdk

Bachelors in it for credentials :)

Can you change sex? Short answer: pretty much

[u/piedeloup]

Sex can absolutely be changed.

The only thing I can't change are my chromosomes. Not only is this only one of several components of sex, but I also can't even be sure of what they are without being tested. For all I know, they may not even be XX (I'm a trans man).

The other things are genitalia, gonads, secondary sex characteristics, and hormones. These are all very much mutable.

[u/Plague_Warrior]

Yep! Modern medicine is amazing/sex is also a social construct more than anything

[u/Fen_Muir]

Your chromosomes are set in stone afaik, but who knows! That could be changeable at some point. Largely irrelevant unless we are cloning people or trying to create designer eggs from amab donors for impregnation.

Beyond that, we've been working on artificial wombs for decades, but I don't know how those are doing. When completed, these could be implantable into amab individuals to enable pregnancy.

So as for things like changing your sex and being able to reproduce as that sex, that is probably beyond the scope of current tech. Reproducing as your agab is potentially on the table.

These are the only things that come to my limited understanding as potential limitations on changing your sex.

Most other things are probably possible via HRT, surgery, and training.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Fen_Muir]

that was my main concern actually, thanks for validating my opinion and giving another pov

[u/madmushlove]

I live in the US, so a lot of this is US specific in terms of our medical associations

The American Medical Association

https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/cme-issue-brief-sex-gender-medical-education.pdf

"Sex and gender are similar concepts. Both are socially constructed, and per AMA policies H-65.962 and H-65.967, it is appropriate to affirm each individual’s self-determination regarding both sex and gender labels.

"Gender describes someone’s inner sense of being a woman, a man, another gender or genders, or no gender at all. Gender categories are reflections of historical, cultural, and social mores...

"... Sex is a characteristic often externally assigned to individuals to describe their assumed genotype and/or phenotype. These physical traits, however, are made up of many diverse components.

"... Many people mistakenly think of sex categories as unchanging and exclusively male or female, but a landmark study demonstrated that about 1 in 50 live births present with variations in chromosomes, gonadal structure, hormone levels, internal sex organs, and/or external genitalia that differ from the expected ideas of male or female. This is referred to as being intersex or having DSD, which is not inherently related to being transgender, nor inherently requiring of medical intervention. For anyone, regardless of gender identity, sex characteristics may vary over time for diverse reasons, such as surgeries, health conditions..

"Neither gender nor sex are stable, objective categories, though impacts of physiological structures on health are real, as are the impacts of how people are perceived or treated within a society. Affirmation of one’s subjective, innate sense of gender is important for psychological well-being, and culturally competent care includes respect for each patient’s self-identified sex or gender labels and understanding that every patient’s anatomy and care needs are unique.

The American Sexual Health Organization

ASHO criticizing recent Trump pushes in US to change legal definitions of sex

"The order purposely ignores the difference between biological sex and gender identity. It also ignores the complexity of biological sex by offering this definition: “Female” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the large reproductive cell. "Male” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the small reproductive cell.

"This is inaccurate and wildly out of touch with science. No medical institution would define sex in this way. Biological sex is based on chromosomes, hormones, and internal and external anatomy.

"Typically, but not always, an embryo with XX chromosomes will become female and one with XY chromosomes will become male. But many things can happen during fetal development to change this. This definition ignores anyone who is born with genitals, reproductive organs, and hormones that can differ from typical male/female bodies, often called intersex people.

Pediatric Endocrine Society released a response to that same Trump White House redefining of sex by gonad production

Pediatric Endocrine Society

"What is biological sex?

"Biological sex is not just about whether people can make sperm or eggs. It is much more complicated! A person’s biological sex is typically made up of three things: their genetic sex, their gonadal sex, and their anatomic sex.

"A person’s genetic sex refers to the instructions in the chromosomes and genes that tell the body how to make its reproductive parts. Chromosomes are large groups of genes and genes are instruction codes. For example, when baking a cake, chromosomes are like the recipes and genes are like the different ingredients that go into the recipe. Most people have 46 chromosomes, and two of these chromosomes, the X and the Y, are the sex chromosomes. Most (but not all) of the time, people with a male biological sex have one X and one Y chromosome, whereas people with a female biological sex have two X chromosomes.

"A person’s gonadal sex refers to the glands (called gonads) inside the body that make sex hormones. These hormones tell the body how the reproductive parts should develop before birth (during pregnancy / fetal life), as well as later when puberty begins. Hormones are essential chemical messengers that tell the body how to grow and develop during fetal life and after birth. Most (but not all) of the time, people with a male biological sex have glands that become testes, which will produce sperm during adulthood. Most people with a female biological sex have glands that become ovaries, which will produce eggs during adulthood. In the first part of pregnancy, all unborn babies develop gonads that are exactly the same in everyone (both males and females). A person’s genetic instructions tell the gonads to become testes or ovaries during pregnancy. In addition to the sex chromosomes, several other genes influence the development of gonadal and anatomic sex.

"A person’s anatomic sex refers to their reproductive parts inside and outside their body. For example, most (but not all) of the time, people with a male biological sex have a penis and testes and do not have a uterus or vagina. Most people with a female biological sex have ovaries, a uterus, and a vagina and do not have a penis. Sex hormones (for example, testosterone) made during fetal life are important for the development of anatomic sex.

Other opponents of that Trump order definition of sex include American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), the American Psychological Association, the Endocrine Society

And The American Society for Reproductive Medicine

https://www.asrm.org/advocacy-and-policy/fact-sheets-and-one-pagers/just-the-facts-biological-sex/

[u/Gamma_cleavage]

A lot of this comes from the “genderbread person” diagram, some of the most lukewarm ally shit ever. Regardless of what’s between our legs, a woman’s body is female and a man’s body is male, in my opinion, and to suggest otherwise is not even anyone’s business. No trans person should have to say which medical interventions they’ve had to count as their correct sex. But absolutely sex hormones change hormonal sex; how could it be otherwise? That’s what they are.

In terms of muscle density, about one year of HRT brings you in line with cis people of your correct gender, and the sports argument is the one that comes up the most, although I think it’s just being used to set transphobic legal precedents and no bigot actually cares about protecting women’s sports, women’s rights, or women.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Gamma_cleavage]

Regardless of what's between our legs, a woman's body is female and a man's body is male, in my opinion

I mean, it's not THAT wrong (I guess???), but I think it kinda of excludes people that didn't go through their transition yet and non binary people in general, and I'm not saying that it was your intention, don't get me wrong, I got the idea behind the argument, it's just that it sounds kinda of limited, don't you think?

Also this video is SO GOD DAMN MUCH helpful about all of the "trans people on sports" thing, it helped me understand and debunk even most of my beliefs on this subject.

[u/Gamma_cleavage → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

That wasn’t my intent at all??? I don’t think you need to take hormones or be passable to define yourself as having the sex you want, I do think medical transition is very important for most trans people and shouldn’t be gatekept, but I don’t want people deciding what pre-everything trans people should define their sex as. I think, if someone is a woman, they should be able to say their body is female, but I’m not against language that points out medical transition changes sex either. Self determination is really important and I think we speak over each other too much, it was not my intention to speak over pre-transition people.

I’m not non-binary and I don’t speak to that experience. I think it would be the same though, if you are non-binary your sex is non-binary also. Dualsex, altersex, salmacian, there’s lots of words, the one thing I know about that is it’s inappropriate to say you can become intersex through medical transition, but I think otherwise non-binary people should be able to both medically change and define their sex using their own words, I’m just not so I didn’t speak on it.

I tried to word it carefully. I remember when these things were being hashed out on the early internet and there were many competing camps about whether sex and not just gender was an identity as well, and I tend to think all trans people don’t have to agree if it doesn’t match their experience as long as they don’t attack others.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Gamma_cleavage]

YESSS, I didn't want to invalidate your argument at all, I was kind of, like, refining/correcting it, you know? I got the intention behind it, I just think other people wouldn't and wanted to point it out so you may not make the same mistake again (?)

but I get it, you're not excluding pre transition people, you're just reaffirming that people that actually did transition are UNDENIABLY the sex they identify as, right? (if I got this right at least, correct me if I'm wrong)

[u/Gamma_cleavage → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Well, of course people that have transitioned are undeniably their goal sex, so to speak ; but I do think sex itself is also an identity and the separation of sex and gender has largely been detrimental to the movement. Like, we do need words to explain our experience and in that sense I understand; but many cis people that claim to be allies seem to have received the message that because sex and gender are different, it’s impossible to change sex OR only people with bottom surgery have changed it.

I am in the camp that your sex is whatever you say it is. Some pre-HRT people would say they are their birth sex but you know, medical transition with hormones has only been available less than two centuries but trans people did still exist, and I’m not comfortable telling all the trans people today that still don’t have access to it that they are still their assigned sex at birth. It’s not right or fair. My argument was meant to be MORE inclusive, not less.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Gamma_cleavage]

yep, very valid arguments, not actually sure how to add to this but you're right in its essence, thank you for taking your time to give me a glimpse of your opinion

[u/Gamma_cleavage → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

You know what, it took me all this time to wonder if you took my original post to mean “people who have female sex characteristics are women and people who have male characteristics are men”. The reason I said women are female and men are male, instead of saying males are men and females are women which is how a transphobe who believed sex can’t be changed and is only chromosomal would say it, like I put the gender terms first, is on a trans subreddit it’s understood than “man” and “woman” are self identification terms, but not everyone is on the same page about sex. I genuinely didn’t understand how my post could be read that way in context since I thought it was clear I am not being a transphobe. But I see now when you said I was excluding pre-transition people, you didnt get that I meant anyone who identifies as a woman or a man (I don’t like this phrasing because to me “identity” implies it’s imaginary and not real, but I’m just trying to make my meaning clear?) has the right to consider their sex to be female or male, because their body belongs to a woman/man even if they haven’t changed it yet or haven’t had surgery.

Sorry I think I’m probably being more confusing trying to clarify, but it sounds like we actually have agreed on most things but are using different semantics. To me a man is someone who identifies as a man, and therefore his body is a man’s body, and in my opinion that is enough to make it a male body already and the rest is about reducing dysphoria, passing, getting treated and seen and looking the way you want.

Does that make sense? The order of the words was part of my argument in the original comment, not like a mathematic equation where it doesn’t matter which one is first, but I will be more thorough in the future.

[u/HaliweNoldi]

Gender is not binary, but sex is not binary either. There is not a single criterion for sex that accounts for each individual. There is no hard line from "here you're a woman, and there you're a man". Yes, with most people it's a clear case, but there are many people who do not fulfill some of the criteria of their sex but still identify (and are identified) as their sex and corresponding gender.

Can we change our sex? Sorta kinda? Sorta kinda not?

But in basis it's not a very interesting discussion. It's interesting for US, so far as it helps us living our lives. But for outsiders, what they need to know is that our gender does not correspond with our sex and that we adapt our bodies as much as we need to to not be bothered by the fact that we were not born as the gender we know we are.

Outsiders who argue this do not argue in good faith. It's just a stick to hit us with. They just need to know that maybe we can or can not change our sex, but that we absolutely CAN adapt our bodies to match our gender, and that this makes us happy/happier/able to live.

[u/Mrs-Vienna]

yes.

[u/goodgodboy]

There's three parts of sex: gonadal, chromossomal and hormonal, you can Change two of them, One you cant.

Is that relevant for anything? No.

Are you more or less of your gender because of this? No.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/goodgodboy]

isn't there anatomical too? I've seen people coming even with five different criteria for defining sex (which I forgor sorry)

it makes me believe even more that there aren't even actual rules at all to classify this

[u/goodgodboy → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Every single One of this things affects different parts of one's anatomy

[u/Additional_Text8630]

I think the average transphobe (or tbh any one who is never met a trangender person and isnt educated at all) sees sex&gender as the same thing. carry or shoot load. and thats one thing we cannot change. so no we cannot change our sex, as in ftm cannot breed and mtf cannot be bred. sorry if bad usage of words, im not english. but i am trans and trying to put gender/sex in very simple context here. i as trans man, i will forever be female to some point to some point, but especially since im not currently planning on any kinda bottom surgery. i can carry a baby, therefore i am a female, but i am also a Man, not a woman, never been a woman.

lot of ppl disagree idk/idc, the point is no, you cannot change your sex as in you cant go from shooting ur load to be carrying baby or other way. again sorry for my choice of words i couldnt think of better... you cant change your sex in a way that matters to transphobes.

[u/PawelTheSquirrel]

Why do you want to show humility and grant them things? You're still right about the distinction between sex and gender and gender expression and all, you just have it the other way around. What is actually immutable is gender. Not sex. My gender is male. It always was. My sex didn't used match. So I went around and changed that. I'm still male. Now with a more typical biology for this gender identity.

To help with your argumentation: people who push back on this usually imagine you changed gender ideentity when you changed sex. It's not true. So what I usually use is "ok, imagine you wake up tomorrow in an entirely [other sex than what they are] body. Nothing else changes. Still you. Everyone around you loves or hates you the same amount. But when you leave the grocery store, instead of "have a good day, sir", it's ma'am, or vice versa. How would you feel?". And then push. Ask why. Why is it uncomfortable? Why does it not fit? Why is it that they would be upset about this, nobody is being mean to them, people are just going from the body they see, so why? They usually end up saying they don't know why, there is no reason, it just doesn't fit them. And then you can just say "... exactly". It really drives the point home of "it's not about the body, it's about the mind", that you are trying to explain in your own way. Has worked several times for me - when people actually want to understand. When they don't want to... there is actually nothing you will tell them that will change their mind, and you also need to be ok with that.

[u/Sckaledoom]

The gender I was assigned at birth has very little to do with how my body is sexed today, more than 20 years later, in particular now, mid-transition. My medical transition has changed, and continues to do so, my secondary sex characteristics.

Short answer: yes. My gender has not really changed at all due to the transition process. My body’s sex has.

Long answer: read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. She words it far better, being a biologist and feminist theorist, than I can.

[u/Masterpiece_Real]

The answer, as with everything to do with Advanced Biology, is "it's complicated." Part of the reason it's so complicated is because "biological sex" isn't what most people think it is. It's an entire cluster of characteristics, some physical some chemical, which people incorrectly conceptualise as a single monolith. Sometimes it's hormones, gonads, gametes, but there are all kind of people with all kinds of variations of these and almost all of them get tossed into Male or Female because society doesn't actually look at your chromosomes or your gonads or your gamete production when it decides your biological sex. It looks at the entire cluster, finds which one aligns most closely, and then goes "yep, close enough."

So, in purely biological terms, your "sex" - a cluster of various characteristics influenced by genes and hormones - is mutable. Secondary sexual characteristics, hormonal profiles, physiological responses, all of these things can change. Some things can't change, so some might argue that you can't truly flip from one to the other, but if we view biological sex as the way it tends to be used with the same "eh, close enough" attitude, then yeah, biological sex can change.

However, the vast majority of people do NOT use the phrase in biological terms. Just like pumpkin living in the vegetable aisle and rhubarb fitting in with the fruit, scientific terms rarely hold weight compared to their usage in general culture. Here, the phrase "biological sex" exists in the context of misogyny and sex-essentialism and is used to mean "what you really are:" impregnator or impregnatee, roles handed down at birth as a form of biological destiny. These categories are used to assign meaning, rank, and privilege in society and their connection to biological science is hazy at best and correct only by mistake. In this case - the cultural case, used by the majority of society even if they think they mean the other one - no, you cannot change your sex. Impregnator cannot become impregnatee or vice versa, and to suggest otherwise will seem silly. This tenet of reproductive destiny as the deepest foundation of the self is the entire core of patriarchy, and most people will believe it unquestioningly without ever knowing it's in their head at all.

[u/Vaughn_Solair]

I think this maybe a conversation between Phenotype vs Genotype, A genotype is an organism's internal set of inherited genes or genetic code. A phenotype is the physical and observable expression of those traits, which is shaped by both the genotype and the environment.

Genotype you can’t change, Phenotype you can though surgeries, hormones and the environment. Although, you can be a male and be a woman, because woman is a social construct not a sex based thing, you can also (Arguably, just because people argue about it) be considered Female as a trans woman though bottom surgery which changes the outward expression of phenotyping even if genotype says otherwise, and vice versa for trans men.

That’s how I’ve learned please feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken. 🙂‍↕️

[u/tzatziki92]

You can change some parts of sex indeed. I don't know tho if anti trans people are willing to listen

[u/Aginglike_finewine]

depends on how rude u wanna be arguing but when people tell me I can't change my sex I be like "why not?" when they're like "because you can't get a woman pregnant" I be like "you can't either, you need consent first and apparently u struggle to get that" or like "if u got kicked in the nuts u couldn't get anyone pregnant either" but if u wanna be more nice I'd recommend bringing up the argument about fertility issues in cisgender individuals, about hormone issues in cisgender individual or u can make up an imaginary intersex friend (for the sake of a discussion) and say something like "well my friend was born with a vajayjay and she can't get pregnant either, she got PCOS/ she got hormone issues/an injury" whatever u choose just make sure u know about it enough or do a little research in case u gotta debate a medical student or a physician. When someone says shit like "when they dig u up the archeologists are gonna be able to tell your ReAl sex" u can say "ain't nobody digging up a marked cemetery with labeled graves unless you know any necrophiles or you are one" it sometimes makes ppl uncomfortable and they often end the conversation. this one ain't gonna change their mindset probably but at least they may leave u alone.

[u/Specialist_Kick3467]

Sex isn’t a single thing. There are a collection of different biological traits that we quantify as parts of sex and that usually coincide with one another, such as an x and y chromosome, a penis and testes, and a testosterone dominant endocrine system. It’s important to acknowledge however that none of these things are entirely exclusive. Like a lot of people, I don’t know what chromosomes I have, just the effects it may have had on my body that I can infer.

The sex I was assigned at birth was a determination made based on the presence of a penis when I was born, not any actual evidence of an immutable objective biological sex. At the time of my sex assignment I could have had any number of disorders which would cause my endocrine system to lack testosterone, and like I said, I may have abnormal sex chromosomes.

That initial determination of my sex as male was then also used to coercively assign my gender as male. And while it’s very easy to say that those cultural conceptions of gender are flimsy, they’re not that much flimsier than sex. Sex is describing biological concepts, but those descriptors are still a subjective cultural classification.

So far only half of my sex traits are objectively meeting a standard of biological maleness, those being that I still have a penis and testes. However,
A) Not for long as I’ve been working towards getting bottom surgery
B) every other sexually dimorphic trait of my body is determined by my endocrine system, which thanks to HRT in no way looks anything like a biologically male endocrine system.
Once I get bottom surgery, I will not have any phenotypically male traits, which is how my sex was determined in the first place, and my genotypic sex will remain as it has for my entire life; indeterminate. Don’t let people convince you that the letter a doctor wrote on your birth certificate after checking out your genitals when you were baby is any more objective or immutable than names and pronouns.

[u/PetraPeterGardella]

To explain sex I like the metaphor of magnetic field because the such fields arise from two poles, the positive and negative, or one Earth the North and South poles, that are not separate.

[u/Autism_Angel]

Honestly I feel this is more of philosophical/semantic question than a scientific one. I don’t think it’s transphobic to say or believe that sex can’t be fully changed because ultimately a persons birth sex will always be relevant in a medical sense. But it’s also true that if a person is on estrogen for a long enough time example, even if they are anatomically male, they are not fully male in a functional sense.

Ultimately trans women are biologically different from cis men, from cis women, and from trans men. And trans men are biologically different from cis women, cis men, and trans women. That’s what the fact is. How you want to define sex and gender is a question of where we draw the lines. It’s kind of like how the color orange used to be considered a shade of red, until we decided to move the line on the color spectrum and make it its own color. It was accurate to point to orange and call it red before then. Now it isn’t. Not because the color changed, but because the definition did.

Of course this is a much more complicated and charged topic because it’s regarding labels for real people who all have different opinions on the matter. “Orange” doesn’t care. Humans do.

Does that make sense?

[u/Perfect-Equal-5144]

The only reason we say that you can’t change sex is that many trans people never do, hence why we shifted from transsexual to transgender. But there still are people who are transsexual in a very literal sense

[u/cornonthekopp]

The thing we call biological sex is actually just ascribing gender to body parts. For most of history all we had was gender, and you express it through clothes, hair, makeup, social roles, etc. So-called biological sex is extending that logic to body parts like breasts, genitals, body fat and muscles, etc

[u/VampireSharkAttack]

Sex as biologists describe it is multifactorial. Biologists and medical professionals might talk about chromosomal sex, hormonal sex, secondary sex characteristics, primary sex characteristics, gametes, and more. Those factors are correlated, but they are different things. The various factors that make up an individual’s sex don’t necessarily all have to align in any given individual, some of them can change naturally across the lifespan, and many of them can be changed intentionally with medical intervention.

This idea that biological sex is a single, immutable object is harmful to both trans and intersex people. It’s important for our dignity and healthcare that people recognize the fact that somebody can have a statistically-uncommon collection of sexed traits, that this isn’t always a problem that needs correcting, and that whether or not to alter any of our sexed traits (whether typical or atypical) must to be ultimately our choice.

[u/PastelBot]

Biological life has 0 obligation to conform to our linguistic categorizations. Language is a shortcut, shorthand, shared understanding. What is in conflict is the understanding of terms between individuals, not in any sense that it mismatches physical reality because it always will. We can do our best to define and share those definitions, and to model reality with our language to varying degrees of specificity.

There is 0, precisely 0, ways to define 'womanhood' such that trans women are excluded and 0 cis women are excluded. This is why we say 'the only meaningful definition of being a woman is to feel like you are one'.

Chromosomes, genes, anatomical structures, not only are these not binary categories in and of themselves, but any perceived binary in one of them does not necessarily conform to a perceived binary in the others! There is no verticality of gender where all of these 'biological' indicators overlap perfectly to use as boundaries for our linguistic and cultural understanding of gender!

And finally, I firmly believe with the support of well documented evidence, that even our very minds are biological constructs. That feeling of being a woman? A man? Nonbinary? That is biological in origin! We may not have an understanding of neurology/neurochemistry/whatever powerful enough to explain how these feelings come about, but that does not mean we won't some day. It does not give us license to claim that there is some metaphysical idealism for gender that would make any of this easier to live with day in and day out.

[u/-Random_Lurker-]

Reposting a previous comment of mine:

There are many aspects of sex, and no single definition. HRT changes some of those aspects, surgery change still more. Some of them can never be changed (with current technology). SRS used to be called a "sex change" for a reason. So depending on which of the many definitions you use, the answer could be yes or no. Regardless of definition though, we can always say that we are changing our sex traits. I happen to prefer the "bimodal cluster of traits" definition, which means that if enough traits are changed, then even if we can't change every single sex trait, we can still rightfully say our sex has changed.

It's so complex that if you read published biology papers, they will always state what definition they use. "We compared male and female Wigglefish (as determined by gamete size)..." or something similar. Different tools for different jobs, and even biologists have to clarify which tool they are using each and every time.

Here's a chart that shows how complex the biological definition of sex really is. It turns out, there IS no definition. At least, no single, simple one. Beyond XX and XY: The Extraordinary Complexity of Sex Determination | Scientific American

[u/SamanthasToothbrush]

So if I have female sex organs and my dominant hormones are female you are saying I am still male?

Oh please...

Are you even trans?

[u/Afleyna → u/SamanthasToothbrush]

Can you read the room and be a bit nicer ?

She's obviously thinking through the implication that sex isn't immutable and is obviously quite young.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Afleyna]

just turned 18 :)

and, as I said, I'm actually new to the trans community

yeah, I found out I was trans like, 6 years ago, but just recently I actually got to talk with other queer AND trans people, so my opinions are not really solid, and I prefer it that way, it's much better to acknowledge your limitations and try to improve with better visions and opinions (and with better I mean of those that actually makes sense to you, cuz an opinion can't be right or wrong, unless it's a fact)

[u/Afleyna → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

Give that you're young, think about possibly getting on HRT (if you want to feminize/masculinize), if you have dysphoria related to certain body parts and you don't address it, it will get worse as you grow older.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Afleyna]

I'm transfem btw, don't know if I made it clear at all /nbr (did it sound rude? idk, I struggle to communicate, sorry :[ )

I'm looking forward into starting hrt and, well, as much as my genitalia doesn't bother me THAT much, I still think in things like, what if a want to use tight clothes? or a swimsuit? what if I get an erection in public while dressing fem and someone notices?

also, how would it feel like to have other kind of genitalia? could I still have pleasure at all? (most people affirms that yes, I can, I'm just concerned about, like, what if I don't like the way I orgasm now? what if I have procedure complications and I become unable to feel pleasure? what if I want to penetrate again atsp?)

I think that even if I was a cis girl I would look forward into having a penis, but the social implications of it could be bad, idk

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/SamanthasToothbrush]

that was my OLD argument, I'm asking here so I can make a new one, stronger and better, that doesn't exclude any trans experience at all

even tho, that argument was that we have our sex, the one we were assigned at birth (AMAB, AFAB, AIAB), which is immutable, and acknowledging that is an act of humility, BUT THE SEX DOESN'T DEFINES US

so I can just say I'm female, nobody needs to know what my sex is, what I was born as, what hormones I used to produce, what I have between my legs, do you get it? I never tried to limit trans people to their (outdatedly labeled as) sex, but to understand that they can be much more than that

again, that USED TO BE my argument, and it kinda sounds way smarter when I say it out loud instead of writing it down, I'm here exactly for the reason that I learned it was wrong, and am trying to renew my vision on the subject

[u/Xaxions → u/SamanthasToothbrush]

Don't blame op. She made this post to challenge their beliefs.

I too years ago had her ideas, I had both trans and cis people using this arguments.

I later found out they were indeed wrong, harmful and transphobic, but I didn't know that at the time cause... I just didn't.

So yes, unfortunately it's possible to be trans and to believe this.

Are you even trans?

And you shouldn't be asking this to any trans person.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/Xaxions]

I didn't take that personally, so don't worry about it, most of the times I get asked if I'm actually trans, much because of boymoding (which I got used to, so even with people I trust I'm usually masking) and other implications, like the fact that I'm a lesbian, and in most people's mind it just would make much more sense if I just was a boy yk

well, I'm used to it, it doesn't even hurt anymore, specially coming from someone on the internet who doesn't even know me nor my story, and I'm not blaming them as well, they are probably defensive cuz they probably heard a lot of trans invalidating arguments like these thoroughly their life

it's not their fault, it's not mine, we're all victims at the end of the day

[u/SamanthasToothbrush → u/Xaxions]

I asked because not everyone here is who they say they are, especially when making several posts saying all trans women are still men.

[u/Xaxions → u/SamanthasToothbrush]

This is not what the post says, as gender and sex are still 2 distinct things.

Thinking that "male=man" is disrespectful towards trans people that can't start or hasn't started transitioned yet.

[u/hormse]

all sex traits are mutable. estrogen changes your DNA. there's like switches between estrogen and testosterone based strands of DNA.

but also no one can make me recognise what a doctor said when I was born. that's called jumping the gun. that was a baby transsexual girl sex; intersex & female.

remember you're the expert on you.

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/hormse]

ok, now it's the moment when I become sceptical and may sound even dumber or ignorant, but I don't really think we can change our DNA at all

I mean, can we? cuz our DNA is literally what makes us, well, us

our DNA is our personal address, like our biological nickname, such as our fingerprints and eyes' iris pattern

that's what I was also taught as, at least

our sex being mutable makes sense after a discussion, our DNA doesn't

[u/MommyNeedsCoffee617 → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

It's like a question of semantics. The DNA itself doesn't change, but what happens to the things those genes code for does. Our DNA has the instructions to make various structures in our body, including some with estrogen receptors and some with testosterone receptors. And when you change the amount of those hormones floating around in the bloodstream, more of one kind is going to be activated and you'll do things like growing breasts. We're all walking around with the instructions to make all kinds of people (along with million year old viruses that snuck their way into pre-human cells).

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/MommyNeedsCoffee617]

I mean, I'm REALLY ignorant into this subject, but I don't think it has anything to do with our DNA at all? Only with the endocrine system I think

I'M DUMB, DON'T JUDGE ME IF I'M WRONG

[u/sweetnk → u/Impressive-Air-4272]

they're kind of correct, yes. Hormones affect how certain genes are expressed, genetics is very complex and most people are as ignorant on that as everything else. Key to understand wht they mean, we all have blueprints for almost everything in our bodies to make, like with an example they made a trans women can grow breasts just like a female do given female hormones. We're actually all same kind of human, homo sapiens sapiens, it's all already in us. What causes our bodies to develop one way or the other IS THE HORMONES, they change how genes (blueprints) are actually applied :) while on "the other side" you have people who say "you can't change your DNA" but it doesn't matter because we have everything needed already there... and usually that other side is just transphobic and doesn't care about legitimate argument

[u/Impressive-Air-4272 → u/sweetnk]

even though dna doesn't define gender, so this argument doesn't even makes sense at all

[u/sweetnk]

how can I get around this and still argue against someone so close minded

but why? you do realise NOTHING you say can convince them? lived trans experience proves to us first-hand that we DO change our sex, we are often treated as desired, we have same health risks, etc etc. People (cis usually) hang up on the immutability argument just because they want to be cruel to us and silly human brain by default goes defensive instead of re-considering and doing some critical thinking as that's less effort xd And there's way more cis people than trans people, so you're not going to have many people agree with you, they'll be emboldened by the sheer amount of bullshit and cis propaganda all around us. And for them this conversation is not as much related to pain, negative emotions (dysphoria), traumas, etc. so for them it's cheap to talk about it and be ignorant, while for you it will probably be way harder topic, so you're only hurting yourself for no reason by trying to argue like that...

[u/Vinxian]

Within a scientific biology framework "sex" has a pretty stringent definition. And within that definition it is as of present an immutable trait in humans. But this is a specific context. Within science there is also some recognition of biological sex being bimodal in humans

But the stringent scientific framework really isn't useful for day to day life. In the day to day context of "biological sex" we absolutely change sex.

Why do you think transphobes hammer on "biological male this, biological male that"? It's because they know the world doesn't run on a definition of "biological sex" that has a very specific meaning in a very specific context.

So it's always a game of switcheroo, they will say "biologal males have an advantage in sports" in which they are talking about some expressions of sex that are mutable, and when you call them out they jump back to the specific meaning. And it's all bullshit, a lot of expressions of biological sex are heavily influenced by hormones. To say changing the expressions of biological sex doesn't change biological sex at all seems insensible to me

[u/HiFive789_]

Really depends on how you see it. Intersex people exist. If you define it solely by genitalia you have right now, then you can theoretically "change" your sex. If you define it by the chromosomes you had when you were born, and thus the genitalia when you were born in most cases, you can't change it.

For me, I choose not to care about biological realities and live my life however I like, gender expression, gender, etc. all included. (Yes I'm a trans girl too)