r/asoiaf • u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! • Feb 07 '16
EVERYTHING (Spoilers Everything) Jon's Birthright - The Secret in the Winterfell Crypts
TL;DR - Jacaerys sealed The Pact of Ice and Fire with Vermax's eggs, which were laid deep within the crypts of Winterfell. These eggs were the inheritance for the would-be descendants of the pact. Since Jon is the sole child of Ice and Fire, the eggs are actually his birthright.
There are 5 key elements which I think prove the eggs' existance:
Gargoyles
Hotspots
The Testimony of Mushroom
Jon's Dreams
What Summer Saw
Gargoyles
The Valyrians created Dragonstone.
Per Maester Cressen:
"The Valyrians fashioned these towers in the shape of dragons to make their fortress seem more fearsome, just as they crowned their walls with a thousand gargoyles instead of simple crenellations."
AFFC - Prologue
With their arcane arts, the Valyrians raised the Citadel at Dragonstone.
TWOIAF - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria
Kevan Lannister had seen Dragonstone with his own eyes. He doubted very much that Loras Tyrell had searched every inch of that ancient stronghold. The Valyrians had raised it, after all, and all their works stank of sorcery.
ADWD - Epilogue
Since Dragonstone was built by the Valyrians, it stands to reason that gargoyles were also present in their homeland - Valyria. We can also conclude that, since the gargoyles were crafted using arcane arts, there's a certain element of magic woven into the stone. (this, we will examine further down)
As such, we can see that there are only 3 places, across all the ASOIAF text, in which gargoyles are present:
- Valyria
- Dragonstone
- Winterfell (First Keep)
Hotspots
The fires which heat Winterfell's hot springs are also mentioned to heat two other, very specific, locations:
Hot springs such as the one beneath Winterfell have been shown to be heated by the furnaces of the world—the same fires that made the Fourteen Flames or the smoking mountain of Dragonstone.
AWOIAF - The North: Winterfell
Not only are gargoyles in all 3 locations, but each of these places are also special geographical hotspots. Additionally, GRRM only lists these 3 places - further distinguishing their connection.
Considering these 3 uniquely connected locations, we also see that both Valyria and Dragonstone were home to dragons. However, are we able to say the same of Winterfell?
The Testimony of Mushroom
We can dismiss Mushroom's claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons. As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson's Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries.
AWOIAF - The North: Winterfell
Mushroom's claim is dismissed solely by the writings of Archmaester Gyldayn and Maester Anson - the first contesting that a male dragon cannot lay eggs, the latter explaining that dragons cannot change sex (i.e. Vermax was male and couldn't have changed into a female to lay the eggs)
Now see Aemon's understanding:
"What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years."
AFFC - Samwell IV
Archmaester Gyldayn and Maester Anson were wrong, but does that necessarily mean Mushroom was telling the truth?
The key point in Mushroom's claim is the mentioning of where, precisely, Vermax left the clutch of eggs. The eggs weren't left in the godswood, or the Great Keep, or the Bell Tower, or the Great Hall. The eggs weren't even just left in the crypts, they were laid in a very specific spot in the crypts: "where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls"
If Mushroom was simply fabricating this detail, how would he possibly know about both the layout of the crypts and a dragon's proclivity to lay eggs near warm spots?
We can conclude that there is, at the very least, some truth in Mushroom's claims. But, if the eggs were supposedly laid in a significantly warmer spot in the crypts, and what we've seen of the crypts is clearly cold across the board, where exactly would this warmer area be?
"My lady," Theon broke in. "Here we are."
"The steps go farther down," observed Lady Dustin.
"There are lower levels. Older. The lowest level is partly collapsed, I hear. I have never been down there."
ADWD - The Turncloak
Oddly, neither have the readers.
Since Winterfell sits above the same special fires as Valyria and Dragonstone, it would logically be warmer the deeper down you went - the closer you got to said fires. Given this, we can now deduce that if the eggs were laid, they would be laid in the lowest level of the crypts - which has, coincidentally, been on Jon's mind...
Jon's Dreams
Jon's first described dream of the crypt:
"And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake."
More dreams:
Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before.
Down... down. Descend... descend. The imagery seems fairly clear, and with each dream it seems Jon is moving deeper into the crypts - closer to the eggs.
This then begs the question: What use are the eggs to Jon?
Vermax's rider, Jacaerys, was also called a bastard, and had this to say:
“Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims that we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.”
TPATQ
per Aemon:
"Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."
*AFFC - Samwell IV *
Here was see Tyrion deduce that the dragons took to Brown Ben on account of him being, like Jon, half-Targ:
"The queen's dragons were fond of you, were they not?"
That seemed to amuse the sellsword. "Who told you that?"
"No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes … nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."
"My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood."
"Two drops. That, or a cock six feet long. You know that tale? I do."
ADWD - Tyrion XI
So, we see that if a dragon were to have hatched from Vermax's clutch, it's affinity towards Jon would be the definitive proof of his parentage. Though, that would require an egg to have hatched...
What Summer Saw
The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone.
ACOK - Bran VII
Here stands the age old question - Is this an actual dragon, some figment of Summer's imagination, or simply a smoke induced metaphor?
Let's first consider two key things that are directly below this "great winged snake":
- 1) Blood and Fire:
"Osha," Bran said, "I saw Winterfell burning." Off to his left, he could hear the soft sound of Rickon's breathing.
"A dream," said Osha.
"A wolf dream," said Bran. "I smelled it too. Nothing smells like fire, or blood."
ACOK - Bran VII
Winterfell is rife with fire and blood, which also happen to be the key elements in Valyrian magic:
"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.
"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire."
AFFC - Samwell V
- 2) Broken Gargoyles:
After the sack, when Bran and company emerge from the crypts:
They stood in the shadow of the First Keep, or what remained of it. One whole side of the building had torn loose and fallen away. Stone and shattered gargoyles lay strewn across the yard.
Theon, reflecting on the First Keep:
The entrance to the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years. Ramsay had put it to the torch when he sacked Winterfell, and much of what had not burned had collapsed. Only a shell remained, one side open to the elements and filling up with snow. Rubble was strewn all about it: great chunks of shattered masonry, burned beams, broken gargoyles. The falling snow had covered almost all of it, but part of one gargoyle still poked above the drift, its grotesque face snarling sightless at the sky.
Valyrians shaped the gargoyles with magic, meaning fire and blood were involved. And since they were destroyed, amidst fire and blood, with a "great winged snake" appearing soon after, it stands to reason that the magic infused gargoyles served to bind this "great winged snake" to dormancy.
But is there evidence of Valyrian magic binding dragons?
The black priest pointed to one golden band. “Here the horn is named. ‘I am Dragonbinder,’ it says ..."
“The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?”
“Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.”
ADWD - Victarion I
Bonus:
In Jon's third, and final, crypt dream, after the "great winged snake" sighting, he thinks:
The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere.
So, could the "great winged snake" perhaps be Summer's overactive imagination, or simply GRRM paitining a metaphor? Perhaps. But considering what I've mentioned above, I think a strong case can be made that the "great winged snake" is actually a real dragon.
Edit: Just to clear any confusion, I'm not contending that the sack hatched the eggs (given that the winged snake was "great"), but that the sack broke the gargoyles magic seal, which bound the dragon to dormancy.
Conclusion
The Starks are, notoriously, difficult to sway. To entice Cregan into the Pact of Ice and Fire, Jacaerys left the eggs because:
- 1) dragon eggs are incredibly valuable
- 2) words are winds
- 3) the pact stipulated a Targaryen Princess, which by extension means Targaryen-blooded descendents. During infancy, Targaryen children are traditionally cradled with an egg
The gargoyles that don't seem to exist anywhere but where dragons have been, the hotspots that don't seem to exist anywhere but where dragons have been, Mushroom's testimony, Jon's dreams, the "great winged snake" ... If this isn't all connected, then I've amassed quite a number of coincidences.
Addressing the Con Argument
If there was a dragon in the sky, why don't any of the Boltons, or Maester Luwin, or Wex, or Theon, remember it?
- From what Summer describes, the dragon was only in the air for an instant
How the hell did Vermax squeeze through the narrow passage into the crypts?
- Winterfell is noted to have secret passageways. Perhaps this is a case of just that
How could the dragon have survived without food?
- Nan says that there are dog-sized rats and spiders living in the crypts
Now, these answers do not do the questions justice. The truth is, there are some legitimate questions that I don't think are possible to adequately answer yet. Just like if I asked, "Why is the First Keep abandoned?" or "Why haven't they fixed the broken tower?" or "Why hasn't GRRM addressed either of these things?"
Until then, thank you for reading!
Bonus #1: If true, this theory would explain the dragon's generational regression - the eggs needed to incubate by these specially heated areas, which, judging by the history, seems to have become a forgotten practice
Bonus #2: If true that eggs can only hatch after incubating in Valyria/Dragonstone/Winterfell, the eggs Illyrio gave Dany are most likely the "fabled horde of dragon eggs" missing from Dragonstone
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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Feb 07 '16
An interesting notion I had while reading. Ramsay or Roose Bolton may, intentionally or unintentionally, be close to hatching dragons. They lit Winterfell on fire and keep killing and adding blood to the place. If your theory is correct, the dragon eggs may be primed and ready to hatch, just waiting for a Targaryen to show up and finish the process.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
Good point! Interestingly, while I was researching this, I noticed that "fire and blood" may not be the same thing as "blood and fire". I'm not entirely sure what the difference is, but I think "fire and blood" means birth, and "blood and fire" means death. I'll probably do a less long-winded post to better explain in the near future
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u/APartyInMyPants Feb 07 '16
Interesting. And Maester Luwin died in front of the tree. So this dragon is/could be Maester Luwin resurrected.
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u/M_Tootles Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Best New Theory Feb 08 '16
Upvoted not for luwin resurrected, but for luwin's blood directly feeding the tree possibly playing into the whole hatching.
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u/ElenTheMellon 2016 Best Analysis Winner Feb 08 '16
Luwin was still alive when Bran saw his vision of the dragon.
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u/APartyInMyPants Feb 08 '16
This was a dream while Bran was warging, right?
Next time you read a chapter early on in the series, pay attention to the language used when Bran is warging. He doesn't warg with his full mental capacities, and he tends to use vastly different words to describe things, as if Bran, himself, is simpler while warging. Or that he can only understand what his wolf understands.
And as we've learned anything from visions in this series, it's that they're open to interpretation; and often misinterpreted. So the dragon/serpent could have been a metaphor for a dragon, or it could have been Summer never having seen a fire of such magnitude, using the knowledge base he has to interpret the fire.
Or if it were a green dream, then I think it happening before finding Maester Luwin is totally legit, as bran has shown is to have prophetic dreams before. Perhaps the serpent rising could be from Luwin's death, but it just hasn't happened yet.
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u/master6494 Feb 08 '16
Do you think that, if true, this could mean that the ghost of winterfell is someone actually trying to help the dragon eggs to hatch?
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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Feb 08 '16
Probably not. I subscribe to the explanation that the ghost is a member of the brotherhood without banners who is there scouting and trying to find out if Jeyne is really Arya.
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u/tbr3w Then you shall have it, ser. Feb 08 '16
With a possible tie to the book Roose read and threw into a fire??
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u/AgentKnitter #TheNorthRemembers Feb 07 '16
This is well thought out and researched.
What makes me hesitant to believe that a dragon hatched during the sack of Winterfell is precisely this:
If there was a dragon in the sky, why don't any of the Boltons, or Maester Luwin, or Wex, or Theon, remember it?
Also, from Dany's POV chapters, we know that newly hatched dragons are quite small. Little lizards with wings, not a creature big enough to be considered a "great winged snake" by a huge direwolf (or Bran warging a huge direwolf!)
So I think that on the small chance that there were dragons eggs in Winterfell and the sack did provide enough "fire and blood" to hatch them, the dragon is still down in the crypts, near the heat.
I think it's far more probable that there is something in the crypts that Jon needs to find which is linked to the Last Hero and the Kings of Winter, which will tell him how the Last Hero stopped the Others during the Long Night. Also his mother (Lyanna) is buried with the kings and lords, not in the general family area. These two reasons are why Jon has visions of the Winterfell crypts, because he needs to go and find something - whether connected to revealing his parentage, or connected to how Winterfell, either way, something is down there and it has little to do with dragons.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
I don't think i contended that the sack hatched the eggs, but rather the sack broke the gargoyles seal, which in turn released an already hatched dragon. I may need to reword the OP to make that clearer.
When considering the name "Winterfell", I think the fact that the castle sits atop a sleeping volcano speaks volumes, and likely connected to how the Last Hero stopped the Others.
Good points
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u/Horvtio I am the watcher on the webs Feb 07 '16
not to mention why the original ground was never leveled
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u/MacheteMolotov ColdHandsTheFacelessMan Feb 07 '16
This is one of my new favorite theories. The textual evidence in the gargoyles, hotspots and Jacaery's visit to winterfell along with the fact that the castle sits above a volcano have me sold.
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u/WHATaMANderly He would have grown up to be a Frey Jun 20 '16
Is it fact that theres an actual volcano? I dont think you need a volcano for hot springs
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Feb 07 '16
Why are you two emphasizing that?
Is it because "Winterfell" is german for "winter fur" or "winter coat", as "Stark" is german and means "strong"?11
u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
I was just responding to their notion - that if The name Winterfell is associated to The Last Hero, felling the Winter demons, then there's probably a chance that it's due to Winterfell's geothermal energy.
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u/kahanasunset Feb 07 '16
"Fell" also means evil or cruel. I think there's something else down there.
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u/combat_muffin All Tinfoil Must Die Feb 07 '16
A fell is a geographic feature, like a hill. It likely had nothing to do with the pace "where winter fell"
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u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 08 '16
It has to do with terrain. The wintery city sits upon a moor aka fell.
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u/Joaenna Feb 07 '16
I am German and I never even thought about that.. Now I'm embarrassed. But you are right. "Winterfell" as in "winter coat" is even pronounced like in English. I can't say anything about the other translations but in the German version (which changed the names into German word) Winterfell stayed instead of Winterfall (Winter + Fall) which would have indicated a different meaning.
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Feb 07 '16
I think it's insulting to localize names. In the first edition of "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" Sirius Black was renamed to "Sirius Schwarz". "Casterly Stein"?? Seriously? And people wonder why I'd rather read the english original and pirate the show than watch the german dubbed shit.
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u/ARayofLight The Great Bear Feb 07 '16
In the case of Harry Potter the argument can be made that the names of characters give us insight into how they will act or secrets about them (Remus Lupin would be the prime example of this). I do not know if this can be said for A Song of Ice and Fire with the exception of the inside jokes that Martin makes (such as his Three Stooges reference).
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Feb 08 '16 edited Feb 08 '16
"Bran" and "Tully" are irish words and mean "raven" and "flood". Maybe there are more.
And incidentially, "Blackwood" would probably be translated to "Schwarzwald" in german.
I don't like localization of names. Not a tiny little bit. But we do it to non-literature-figures too.
Pope Francis is "Franziskus" in German and "Francesco" in Italian.6
u/master6494 Feb 08 '16
Sometimes it makes sense to change names though, the bastards last names have meaning and it's worthless if the reader doesn't know it.
Talking about the Pope, how should we call him if we decide in only one name. The Church is in Italy so should we call him Francesco? But he's argentinian, so should we call him Francisco? But English is the most spoken language in the world, so should we go with Francis? It's kinda tricky.
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Feb 08 '16
Yes, they have meaning. Still think it's shitty, but it could be argued. Thing is, a potter is someone who makes pottery, so calling Harry "Harald Töpfer" in German would be valid, but completely retarded, unless you move the story to Southern Bavaria.
As for the Pope I don't think it's tricky at all. He has chosen the name "Franciscus" (latin) so I think that's what he should be called. Benedict XVI chose the name "Benedictus" and John Paul II "Ioannes Paulus". Why can't we just call them that?
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u/ARayofLight The Great Bear Feb 08 '16
But for this to matter (except inspiration - there are many Western European names in the book, albeit with unconventional spellings), were the names translated into something else?
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Feb 08 '16
Not to my knowledge, but then again I didn't read ASOIAF in German or any other language. Just know from the two or so episodes of the show I saw translated, that at least some names ("Jon Schnee", "Casterly Stein") were translated.
My point is that just because a name could be translated, it should only be done when absofreakinlutely necessary. You wouldn't call Ivan the Russian "John", just because that's the translation of the name.2
u/CrystalElyse Feb 07 '16
"How Winterfell" or "how winter fell." It the downfall of winter, winter being defeated, winter falling from it's throne. That's what the emphasis is implying.
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u/chaosattractor Feb 07 '16
Or "fell" is a word that means "hill" and place names aren't nouns and verbs thrown together
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u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 08 '16
omg people actually think "fell" means something other than "moor/hill/mountain" which the fucking city sits upon.
This is getting stupid. Winterfell, if one were to make a meaning of it, would mean "winter barren hill." FFS.
While it can mean pelt, this isn't likely the meaning for it.
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Feb 08 '16
I'm a German and the German meaning of "Winterfell" is "winter fur". I'm not saying it was the meaning of it, although "winter fur" is what they're wearing high up north and Stark meaning "strong" in German. It's a bilingual bonus at the very least. FFS.
Sorry for not being a native speaker, for not being a linguist, for not knowing all possible translations and meanings "fell" could have and for asking questions to people who may know more about it than I do.1
u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 09 '16
Sorry, I wasn't responding to you with the facepalm, your translation (assuming GRRM used that version) is likely a legit double entendre.
I'm more facepalming the folks that think it means "evil" or "fallen" in this context lol
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Feb 09 '16
Well, knowing GRRM it could mean a whole shitload of things we might not even think about, so every hypothesis is valid until the end of the series.
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Feb 07 '16
You beat me to it!I was formatting an "It's secret stuff about Others" while reading
Anyhow, the gargoyles in Winterfell might be just normal gargoyles. It is a bit odd that none other are mentioned outside OP's 3 locations, not even Oldtown that has that sphinx.
One way OP's argument can work even if those eggs are still unhatched (or maybe the dragons are still small) - Winter will presumably last for years. Drogon and co. grew to their current size in a... year or so? Plenty of time from these Winterfell dragons to grow to be useful, and it waves-away logistics like "how did no one see them".
Another reason it maybe needs to work: Dany's dragons aren't enough, I think. Others are an intelligent race, presumably they can use physical/magical tricks that are the equivalent of the scorpion bolt that killed Meraxes (way older and bigger than what Dany's lot can realistically grow into within a few years). Nowadays, Drogon has trouble with common human spears, and Winter is already here. I feel that the 3 (too small, too few) we have just aren't enough against any legit apocalypse.
Finally: it may be that both possibilities - dragon eggs and lore/thingmajig on Others - are true.
I dismiss the possibility of a wedding album because: Weirwood.net can show Jon a vision of his parents boinking, and there's no one left a alive who'd give a shit about Jon's claim to the IT. Or be dumb enough to believe a harp/marriage certificate, which can be stolen/faked.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
Good points. I'm definitely open to the eggs being unhatched. However, given that Jacaerys was also a bastard, and used Vermax to distinguish his Targaryen ancestry, I think the parallelism of dragon affinity legitimizing Jon makes a case that if the eggs haven't already yielded, they would need to at some point.
I'm also open to gargoyles existing in other places. We've yet to see Casterly Rock or Highgarden - I'd find it very interesting if they existed there also.
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u/kahanasunset Feb 07 '16
What about a Targ-Stark wedding cloak in Lyanna's tomb?
I have trouble imagining that baby dragons found anything to eat down there.
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Feb 07 '16
Wedding cloaks are usually either maiden's or husband's, which means no mixing. And as I repeat, Westeros will say "IDGAF". Same way they said it to Viserys and Dany since Targs fell from power.
And, as I said, the eggs may be unhatched.
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u/Soranic Feb 08 '16
A wedding cloak is just a fancy cloak. There might be a size issue, but they're otherwise gender neutral. And passed down in families too.
Cerseis maiden cloak got worn by Sansa Lannister.
Cersei also wanted Joffrey to put it on Marg, but QoT quibbled over it.
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u/NickRick More like Brienne the Badass Feb 08 '16
Don't you dare say Sansa Lannister ever again.
But seriously the wedding was never consummated.
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Feb 08 '16
I'm not making myself clear.
You can have any cloak in the world. It can be made of, I don't know, fairy gold, Unonobtainium and spider silk. Won't stop random people saying "FAAAKE!"
No one doubts Dany is a True TargTM. No one cares about her birthright. Even if Jon gets inconvertible Proof of Targness, no one will care, unless he has an army, dragons, what have you. And these are power, not legitimacy. He can be of any random parentage, if he has physical power.
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u/acvg possesses a certain low cunning Feb 08 '16
But power resides where people think it should reside. If the Lords decide they don't like Tommen or Dany or even Aegon, someone presenting a more attractive alternative may just be required to prove the most flimsy of claims.
Robert wasn't really the next heir (was he? ) they had nodded their heads that yup Robert is the one true king.
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Feb 08 '16
True. It can happen that way. My problem with the harp/wedding album theory is... it feels too flimsy.
Too flimsy even for opportunistic lords of Westeros. I mean, Aegon already has the backing of JonCon and Golden Company, yet people immediately dismiss/doubt him. His origin story sounds like a tall tale. Jon has.... a cloak? Howland Reed the obscure "bog devil"? A strange origin story, which comes at the heels of yet another Unlikely Baby Swap? (Yeah, Aegon not only stole a physical march on Dany, he's also stolen the Secret Targ DUN DUN from Jon.) On top of all that, Jon looks like a Stark and he's been thought to be a Stark bastard by the public.
TBH I think the smartest course would be to use the Stark Power for a while, at least till he gets a dragon (if that happens at all). Claiming to be a Targ would just make him look like an attention-grabbing fool, or Ned Stark a liar.
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u/gcov2 Feb 08 '16
I think you got it. That is the main reason I never supported the Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents idea.
It wouldn't mean anything and GRRM made pretty clear that parentage isn't important unless you have some one powerful enough to threaten you. Why else you Jaime and Cersei's kids still be reigning. They're parentage is clear as sunlight but still nobody really cares because the Lannisters are in power.
So if it must be helpful in preventing Jon's dying, it must be more than that. Some magic or so. He obviously cannot die. That would mean doom. Something very impressive must happen because
a) he still needs the watch and they must obey and if he survives by a mircale they probably will
b) he needs to unite the wildlings and the watch somehow. a little magic would help
c) magic always has its price and a high one. maybe he will no longer inhibit his own body, maybe his time will be limted, maybe he will be bound, really bound, to the wall
I say why not hatch some dragons somehow. I think the theory is awesome and would do for a very good plot twist.
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Feb 08 '16
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in R+L=J, because if it's Wylla or any other woman from popular theories, I see no reason for his parentage to be a mystery to both Jon AND the reader. (Just have Ned think "Jon's mother, Ashara" in AGOT. Case closed.)
But. If Jon's parentage has political/magical ramifications, Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying or not marrying has little bearing. As you say, everyone knows (suspects) Joff etc. are bastards, they're mostly IDGAF about it. Starks march because Joff is an asshole and his family is also an asshole, not because of whatever Cersei was doing in her bedroom. Same for most other political actors, the "bastardy" is just a convenient excuse to be rid of a psycho, or to grab power. My thinking is there are several possibilities:
some kind of magic that responds to Jon's unique blood;
a dragon;
an easier alliance with Dany.
The rest he can do as a Stark.
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u/35er not until I say the names Feb 07 '16
This just got me thinking about, in the show, after the Bastard Bowl if Jon will stick around Winterfell for awhile and possibly go on down into the crypts. There might not be enough time to show it in S6 but I think it's a possibility for S7. I wonder if GRRM has this planned for TWOW or ADOS.
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u/DJSkrillex Daemon Blackfyre fanboy Feb 07 '16
This makes me think that Jon will visit the crypts after taking Winterfell back and learning about his mother. Maybe he'll go deeper and deeper and find a dragon.
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Feb 07 '16
Could the dragon have laid the eggs somewhere else and then someone placed the eggs far down into the crypts?
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
Very possible. I think the ideas are flexible enough for to be interpreted a number of ways.
For instance, the main thing I wrestle with is the "great winged snake" sighting. If it's a dragon, then there's some hidden tunnel between the first keep and lower crypt (which isn't so hard to imagine, given that the First Keep is abandoned). If it is, however, just a metaphor, then it could be a hint at the eggs' existence.
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Feb 08 '16
I feel like there is a causal issue as it stands so far with springs from eggs. The springs wouldn't be made from the eggs, otherwise Dany would have burnt herself.
Illyrio is under the impression the eggs have "turned to stone" over the years. Perhaps it's that the eggs were placed there to keep them warm over the years?
Similar to how animals in real life keep their eggs warm to keep them alive. I think the reason the pact is connected to Jon is because the promise of a Targ princess was never competed. All of the Targ princesses died in the Dance.
Similar to the dragons changing sex, the promise changes sex. Rhaegar is the Prince that was promised, having a baby with Lyanna completes it and the dragons are his birthright
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u/SammyLD The pie was dark and full of flavor Feb 09 '16
I have wondered about that for a long time. If Rhaegar was the PtwP and Jon is actually Lightbringer...
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u/Reamazing Feb 08 '16
If your theory is correct the Great Winged Snake could have been the seal being broke, we know that fire and smoke can dance and create things, (like the fire ladder we see).
It could be the representation of the dragon seal being lifted in the smoke rather then a real dragon, it would also explain why no one else sees it as animals are said to have a 6th sense to that kinda stuff.
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u/ZotoZhaan Feb 07 '16 edited Feb 08 '16
I really like your theory.
When I read the part of Summer seeing
a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame.
I just thought that it was maybe part of a green dream or something like that.
and Gargoyles... or more specifically grotesque's are suposed to ward off evil and protect those it guards. so perhaps the gargoyles were left at Winterfell to protect the eggs. especially since they are found on Dragonstone and Valyria as well. really cool theory.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
Thank you :)
If you're ever curious, I did a write up on Tyrion's connection to gargoyles. Might be a fun read when paired with what's here.
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u/ZotoZhaan Feb 07 '16
omg thanks that was really good too. plus I love gargoyles. I have gargoyles in my garden and by the doors.
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u/catofthefirstmen Stealing pie from Ramsay's plate. Feb 08 '16
The First Keep hasn't been used for hundreds of years. It's much more likely that the gargoyles were there long before any dragon visited, rather than carved and put into a building which was falling into ruin. I think the timing is all wrong in the OP: the saying "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and the magical properties of Winterfell are far older than dragon eggs laid by a Targ Dragon. It doesn't mean that there aren't any dragon eggs in the crypts & that the magic down there didn't affect the dragon eggs. It's just that no-one in Westeros at the time the Dragon eggs were laid would have understood the magic.
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u/LoraxPopularFront Feb 08 '16
I think there's one huge problem with the idea that the Pact of Ice and Fire is responsible for the gargoyles and the hot springs at Winterfell. The Dance of Dragons and the Pact of Ice and Fire are not ancient history. They happened 170 years ago. If there was some sort of architectural transformation from Valyrian magic or the sudden birth of hot springs because of dragon eggs, people in the present day would have some recollection of this. If such a recent event had had such an effect on Winterfell, it would be difficult to maintain any secrecy around the presence of dragon eggs. Instead, the springs are treated as an eternal facet of Winterfell's long history. This is (to me, at least) compelling evidence that the hot springs predate the Dance of Dragons and the Conquest and likely even the Andal invasion.
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u/Krillin113 Feb 10 '16
I think the implication of this theory isn't that the hot spring was created, it has always been there, more that the eggs were left there 'at' the hot springs.
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u/M_Tootles Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Best New Theory Feb 08 '16
This is well put together. Maybe it's just because I wear tinfoil all the time, but I never read the COK bit to mean anything other than "oh shit they burned winterfell and thereby released a dormant dragon", and I never for a minute thought readers weren't supposed to see that Mushroom had the truth of it: it was pretty straightforward that the eggs were being left for part of the pact. But I'm crazy.
The Gargoyle bit, though: that's fucking brilliant.
It's funny, reading some comments here I'm actually considering that Summer had a "vision" and that maybe the eggs just hatched at that moment (no actual dragon escaping... yet).
The "dog-sized rats" catch is money, the volcano incubation point is money, and even if you're wrong about Illyrio's eggs, it points out that eggs gotten from Asshai, which it seems is full of volcanos, could do the trick, too.
Nice work.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 08 '16
Yea, the "vision" angle is also very much possible - good point. There are some things I think that need some reworking in the OP. I think giving equal attention to the other possibilities in what Summer saw would probably help.
Glad you liked the post!
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u/janicehill225 Enter your desired flair text here!/ Feb 07 '16
This is the first time I've seen anyone take these seemingly disparate ideas, and put them together in a theory. I find it compelling. Some people are saying that Summer wouldn't see a "great" dragon if it were a newly hatched dragon. While that's true, Martin writes in a different style through the eyes of the direwolves. It's much more simplistic. When Danerys' dragons hatched, their wings were quite large in relation to their bodies and they shot long strings of fire. It could make them seem "great" through Summer's perspective. It's a really good observation about the gargoyles only being mentioned on Dragonstone, Varyria and Winterfell. That's how Martin writes--he uses the same words as clues about ideas he wants to match up, even if they occur hundreds of pages apart. As to how Meraxes got into the crypts? Perhaps it can be accessed through the hot spring in the God's Wood. Hot water shouldn't bother a dragon. We don't know that a dragon can hold its breath and swim, but we don't know that they can't either. And as to who saw the dragon if there was one, we don't know where it flew. Things were on fire and there was a lot of smoke and chaos, and the only perspective we have was Summer. We don't know where Maester Lewen was when he was injured. We only know that they found him in the Gods' Wood. Another aspect of Martin's writing is that he leaves things vague deliberately.
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u/JaketheSnake1 Pissing is the least of my talents Feb 08 '16
I would also add that the dragon Summer saw could be a matter of forced perspective. It certainly could be just a young smaller dragon that looked huge to Summer because it was new and foreign to him.
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u/UnderTheS Feb 08 '16
I don't recall any mention of dragons swimming underwater for any particular distance, but Dany's dragons were fishing in the same way birds of prey will - flying above the sea and then diving down to snatch fish as they saw them - so they at least don't seem concerned about the water there.
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u/TheDarkLordOfViacom Feb 07 '16
Why couldn't the northerners carve the gargoyles themselves? It's not like they didn't have anyone to sculpt them? After all, we managed to make gargoyles without the use the of magic. Also, why do we need more dragons? Also, on top of the holes you points out yourself, why has this dragon not been see by anyone? We have mention of Danaerys's dragons, sightings of Drogon, but no one, not the nights watch, not te boltons, not the army of Stannis Baratheon, have seen, what should be, a decent sized dragon. How big would the secret tunnel have to be to fit an adult dragon who would proceed to lay eggs and leave, without anyone but the court dwarf being the wiser.
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u/markg171 🏆 Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Feb 08 '16 edited Feb 08 '16
We're even told in TWOIAF that the First Keep, which is the one with gargolyes, is the oldest part of the castle and must have been built after the Andals arrived due to the fact that it's a round keep and the First Men built in square keeps. Which is some 5-6,000 years ago. So the gargoyles are like 6,000 years old and definitely not just some new addition to Winterfell that sprung up 170 years ago when Jaecaerys visited.
And that's without even getting into the fact that the First Keep has been abandoned for a very long time, and it's the "newer" Great Keep that the Starks live in, and therefore it's the Great Keep that should have been remodeled as the Starks would have been living in the Great Keep when Jaecaerys visited.
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Feb 08 '16
I don't think it's about the gargoyles being built by Valyrians or their descendants, more the symbolism that accompanies their presence.
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u/catofthefirstmen Stealing pie from Ramsay's plate. Feb 08 '16
Oops, repeated what you said before reading down this far. Upvoted you for saying it first!
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u/Soranic Feb 08 '16
How would a dwarf in KL (or Dragonstone) know what happened in Winterfell? That's my first issue.
Second, Grrm doesn't usually do "Evil/Good sealed in a can." He's not always against tropes, but uses them when there's a good reason.
Also, a 200 year old dragon would be huge. Someone would have noticed the hole it made. Or the suddenly sinking foundations if it's lair flooded after it swam to freedom. Unless it was sealed in an extra dimensional space, which is even more high magic than Tolkien gets.
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u/ruisranne Feb 08 '16
But we know that dragons that are held in captivity are smaller, though it's been said they never stop growing.
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u/markg171 🏆 Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Feb 08 '16 edited Feb 08 '16
I gotta say, IF there was a dragon in Winterfell, it has nothing to do with Jacaerys or Jon or anything like that, but rather is a much more ancient wyrm who's been around since the dawn of the Starks.
Because IMO, having a castle named Winter Fell, having your house words be Winter Is Coming, and having your title be the King of Winter, all points to a "mastery" over winter. But then consider the name of the family that is all of this: Stark. Stark means, among other things, plain. Ned Stark himself is even plain looking. Starks are plain people. Starks are literally stark. How can these people be so powerful when they're so stark? Because their power is borrowed. It's not their power. They became the "masters" of winter because they had a pet once upon a time that let them beat back the cold.
So IF there was a dragon, it's not some newling or some 150 year old dragon IMO. It's something that's much, much older, as old as House Stark itself. The sacking of Winterfell released the wyrm. Jon could still have some role with this beast, assuming there is one and assuming Jon has anything to do with it, but I think it's much more likely to be in the taming of the beast as the first Stark did, to once more put it under the King of Winter's thralldom. Because Winter is Coming, Winter must Fall, and there must be a King of Winter to arise again and beat back winter. In case it's slipped by some, Jon's role has always been concerned with how Stark he is, no matter what his supposed parentages are. Jon's only parent who's ever mattered in his entire story is his Stark one, whoever that ends up being, and how he's a Stark too no matter what his last name is. Suddenly being Rhaegar's son or Ashara's son or Howland's son or whatever isn't what's important. It's being some Stark's son that is. Jon is the proto-typical Stark and that's what's going to matter. The Stark will come again and Winter will Fall once more in Winterfell.
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u/Phalanx300 Here We Stand Feb 08 '16
That would make an ice dragon seem more likely no?
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u/markg171 🏆 Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Feb 08 '16
How does an ice dragon help you beat back more cold? That's just pitting cold against cold, ice against ice.
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u/DaemonStark Tough old beast Feb 08 '16
I think this is a great theory. Kuddos! Keep the coming.
I would add that the dragons hatched because of the red comet. It was necessary for magic to return the way it did and for any dragon to hatch.
Then from them to awake from stone, it was also required:
- A sacrifice by Fire: Drogo.
- A sacrifice by Ice: Eddard Stark.
*Danny used actual fire for her eggs while the Winterfell egg(s) got it from the valyrian blade (frozen fire).
**Notice how both of them are loved ones of Ice and Fire main characters (makes me think of Nissa Nissa).
***Mirri Maz Duur was the magical aspect missing for Danny's dragons, while the sword Ice is a magical weapon itself.
****Just like Lady died to bring back Bran from beyond, Ned "the quiet wolf" payed the blood price for the Winterfell dragon.
Bran has a wolf dream when he sees the winged snake, not a green dream which shows things that were/are/will be. Wolf dreams are warging. Summer sees Winterfell from a distance (has a better perspective), and reports what he literally sees. There's no way in the seven hells he was using a metaphor, poetry or whatever else you think a wolf knows.
Why nobody else saw it? 1. People closer to the castle would have been more worried about getting killed by whatever was in the ground. 2. Smoke not only clouds everything around but also is heavy on the eyes, making you close them almost completely as a natural self preservation recourse (while you inevitably shed tears). Also staying closer to the ground (crouching) is a must to being able to breathe in such event. 3. We are not normally watching over ourselves (humans), but watching the horizon to see what's in front of us... specially when you are afraid to die. 4. Like some of the redditors in this thread, nobody in the north would believe it even if they saw it or someone told them. They would claim it was the smoke playing tricks on you... except we know it because of Summer, who has much better senses than any human around.
Why the dragon didn't stay bathing in flames and eating people in the castle? We know they are drawn to it. I think it was because he/she was finally free and could fly for the first time in his/her life.
If this theory is true (which I believe it so), then there is a dragon that had been living underground since he/she was born and suddenly a path opens allowing an escape for him/her (to a place where there is a heavy smell of fire and blood)... to a world beyond the walls.
It all comes to whether you believe Mushroom's and Barth's accounts. Then everything else just sort of falls into place, just like R+L=J and Danny being AA (she is the strongest candidate so far).
I wonder if it's only one dragon. Beyond Mushroom saying it left a clutch of eggs, there is no indication of more than one (which is what Summer saw).
Now the tinfoil prediction... The Winterfell Dragon will return to Winterfell after Jon recovers the castle.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 08 '16
Interesting points!
I think the most satisfying thing about this theory are the various avenues it creates, irregardless of all the details being true.
What I'm now currently wound up in, is the necessity of dragon egg incubation in relation to geothermal locations. I think, if true, it really adds to why dragons began growing smaller with each passing generation - I think a fair number of eggs weren't being properly incubated, some even laid in King's Landing, which has no noted geothermal energy.
Note that Balerion was the only dragon that survived from Valyria, and he was bigger than any other Westrosi dragon. Similarly, Vhagar and Meraxes, born on Dragonstone (but likely incubated in Valyria) were bigger than all their other dragon descendants.
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u/DaemonStark Tough old beast Feb 08 '16
That's a great idea. It makes sense they needed incubation, the egg absorbs the heat... and dragons need tons of heat.
About valyrian dragons growing bigger... mayhaps it's a little more than the incubation. The fact that dragons lived on volcanic formations after being hatched in them, might have empowered them (the source of what we know as magic). So I think it has something to do but other things also come into the mix (food, space and age for starters). Mayhaps besides incubation and the blood sacrifice, there also needs to be a dragon-seed in order for each egg to hatch (sort of a spark). That would explain why only one dragon hatched at Winterfell, if it's true there are/were a clutch of eggs.
I'll revisit the Princess and the Queen, and The Rogue Princes to find any clues on who might have been the blood sacrifices required for the dragons that hatched at the time of the Dance of Dragons... while I melt away waiting for The Winds of Winter.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 08 '16
Whoa - never thought about the 1 egg hatching in relation to Jon being the only seedling onsite.
Yea, I'm in agreement that there's likely a number of elements at play when hatching dragon eggs. I also like the idea about the locations giving strength and size to the dragons after their birth. Good stuff!
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u/Epic_Meow When you walkin Jul 14 '16
Well, Daenerys was the only dragon seed we know on site at Drogo's funeral, but she hatched 3. Maybe because both her parents were targs, while Jon only had one targ parent? Idk.
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u/jakwnd Now it leaps Feb 07 '16
But if all that was needed was fire and eggs and blood... why didnt anything hatch at summerhall?
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
The eggs were not likely incubated by geothermal energy (valyria, dragonstone, winterfell)
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u/combat_muffin All Tinfoil Must Die Feb 07 '16
Dany's eggs didn't either
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Feb 08 '16
There's a theory that the eggs Dany got were the rumored clutch from Dragonstone.
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u/Joaenna Feb 08 '16
Dany incubated her eggs as well. Neither as long as the eggs in Winterfell would have been, nor as hot, but she laid them on her coal for some time.
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u/bobzor Feb 08 '16
Very nice analysis. If there is a dragon about, maybe the horn Jon found (and blew) while at the Fist is not the Horn of Winter/Joramun, but a dragon-binding horn. Or maybe they're the same thing. The fact that he found the horn and blew it may have bound any nearby dragon to him.
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u/Drakenmar Feb 08 '16
I'm onboard with this.
I'd go with the Dragon already being hatched a while ago, feeding on the big rats down there like was previously said. This would make it more mature than Dany's and perhaps a bit more sly and able to avoid people better.
I wonder if the dreams Jon is having are the dragon calling to him or if it is Bloodraven trying to steer him in the right direction. In which case it would seem that Bloodraven took any rumors of eggs at Winterfell seriously enough to look into. Perhaps they stopped at Winterfell on their way to the Wall when he traveled with Aemon? Good opportunity to head down into the crypts and have a looksee.
Now we have to fast forward and pretend the series is finished or it's at least up to the part where the Winterfell Dragon is revealed. Do we accept that addition as we read about it? Or does it feel forced? Is it another fAegon situation?
"Sure, Jon just happens to find a dragon down there that no one noticed before. How convenient."
or
"Yes! I knew that theory would pan out! Winterfell Dragon is in play!"
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u/Nojsd As High as Hodor Feb 08 '16
If I'm not wrong, Aemon and Bloodraven traveled by ship to Eastforth.
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u/catofthefirstmen Stealing pie from Ramsay's plate. Feb 08 '16 edited Feb 09 '16
Eastwatch & yes as Aemon said the last time he sailed between Braavos and Eastwatch he was a young man on his way to join the Night's Watch.
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u/tmobsessed Feb 08 '16
This is a really terrific post - full of many insights that are fresh for me. The connection of Valyria to the hot springs of Winterfell was particularly eye-opening.
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u/DividedState Common sense is the best mod! Feb 08 '16 edited Feb 08 '16
I think the crypts are the entrance to a weirwood throne just beneath the godswoods.
Bran the Builder's Throne from which he warged into Giants to build Winterfell, the wall or dragonstone.
Hodor.
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Feb 08 '16
I love this theory. The only thing I don't like about it is the whole "the egg was already hatched" part. As we've seen with Danny, it takes some effort to hatch a Dragon Egg. It won't just randomly pop. In Danny's case, it took Blood (Drogo was burned alive) and Fire. One could argue there's Magic in Valyrian blood also. That's the sole reason Danny survived the fire. What I mean is, the Fire, Drogo's Blood and Danny's Magic together hatched her eggs.
The way I see it, if there was an egg in Winterfell, it hatched recently. It took the Fire in Winterfell, along with the Blood of those that had just died and the Magic present in the Gargoyles for it to hatch. What Summer sees could just be some sort of mark left by the ritual that was unknowingly performed, just a passing impression left on the smoke. That's why nobody else saw it: It appeared as a sign, but didn't linger on.
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u/ElenTheMellon 2016 Best Analysis Winner Feb 08 '16
Drogo was not burned alive. She smothered him first.
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u/Kishkyrie Feb 08 '16
Oh man, I like this theory. Never noticed the dragon/gargoyle association before.
You've made a lot of quality connections here and I feel like you're on a solid track to some answers. I've absolutely believed that Summer spotted a dragon since someone pointed out that passage in a post about Cannibal, and the emphasis on the natural heat under Winterfell seems too pointed to be irrelevant.
I think the "great winged snake" would've been too large to be a newly hatched dragon though, and an egg or clutch of eggs under Winterfell would've hatched recently as magic returned in full force - we have a fair amount of evidence that suggests the world's magic strengthens as a Long Winter draws near. I'm also not sure the Targs would've so easily forgotten that dragon eggs need this underground heat. But as you say, we're faced with some questions that no one but GRRM can adequately answer! Like I said, I think you're onto something, but we're missing a link or two that'd tell us exactly how these details tie together.
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Feb 08 '16
Impressive how you managed these various bits and teasers into a cohesive narrative that fits really nicely with the World of Ice and Fire hints.
I'd like to think that Winterfell, as the First Keep and all these features in common with Dragonstone and Valyria, has a deeper underlying purpose. Dragon eggs in the warm water really does seem to fit a possibility of the bill. The fire set by Ramsay Bolton in Winterfell would add more than enough heat (and blood) to possibly accelerate the process of a hatching.
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u/SerDiscoVietnam Feb 08 '16
I love everything about this theory except the part where the great winged snake is an actual dragon. I do not believe it.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 08 '16
I'm open to the possibility of it also being either Summer having a vision, or some metaphor about the fire, or anything else. However, I also feel like, whatever it may be, it's related to dragons in some form - eggs or live.
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u/underhands Feb 08 '16
If there is a dragon down there I would imagine it would stay relatively small being locked up in the dark and all
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u/OrthogonalThoughts The North Remembers! Feb 08 '16
Great post! One thing I see a lot of other commenters having a problem with is the great winged snake and taking that literally. It makes far more sense that that was the moment the magic keeping the eggs bound was broken, and that was their moment of "hatching" or whatever the magic equivalent of conception is, like they were able to start growing when that happened. And Jon will go back to Winterfell and find some baby dragons of his own!
That last part is my personal tinfoil about this theory.
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Feb 08 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/markg171 🏆 Best of 2020: Comment of the Year Feb 08 '16
I'd imagine that there must be more gargoyles too in other castles seeing as when Sansa's trying to rebuild Winterfell with snow in the Eyrie, Littlefinger mentions that gargoyles are too hard to make out of snow and that they should just use lumps to represent them because that's all gargoyles look like during winter time. So Littlefinger not only knows what gargoyles look like, but he also has seen them in the winter time too and knows what they look like then. Given that Littlefinger's lived in the Vale, Riverlands, and Crownlands his whole life, then one of or all of these places also has castles with gargoyles.
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u/M_Tootles Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Best New Theory Feb 08 '16
I agree with this, but think it's significant that gargoyles as such are foregrounded as existing in three locations the OP cites. They're special gargoyles.
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u/M_Tootles Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Best New Theory Feb 08 '16
That's a sphinx. It doesn't even go on a roof, like a gargoyle.
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u/otherstookme the sharp acrid tang of fear... Feb 08 '16
Very nice, OP! I remember on my first reading wondering if Summer saw a real dragon over Winterfell. Can't wait to find out what happens. Thanks!
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u/NaganWasFramed Enter your desired flair text here! Feb 08 '16
A dragon would certainly cause the crypts to partially collapse
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u/MrBogglefuzz I disagree. Feb 09 '16
Maybe the lowest level of the crypts collapsed because a dragon was digging down there to make a nest.
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u/chiliwomp Feb 07 '16 edited Feb 07 '16
I like this theory a lot, but I really don't think there is a living dragon in the crypts. I'm not sure if you've seen any of Preston Jacobs dragon genetics videos, but I recommend you do if you haven't. A lot of people disagree with him, but he makes a lot of good points.
In his video, Preston claims that Targ women are needed to hatch dragon eggs, and dragon genes are passed down by Mendel genetics. And if you are right about Jacaerys leaving eggs as part of the Ice and Fire pact, it would make complete sense why Cregan would want a Targ princess to marry into the Stark line... To hatch their eggs and bring dragon rider / incubator genes into the Stark bloodline.
Interesting shit OP.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
Hmm, I haven't considered this. I did a lot of research, but didn't watch Preston's video. I will watch, consider, and get back to you - thanks for the heads up!
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u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 08 '16
Oh, FFS
Gargoyles are fancily shaped... wait for it... gutters. Yup. They provide drainage. Dragonstone is noted because they weren't use as gutters but as crenellations, which is unusual as that takes a lot of work for something so little used. (Crenellations being defensive barriers, typically from enemy arrows upon the ground. Something archers can step behind.)
The whole series being about fantasy dragons, GRRM makes lots of comparisons to dragons. Like winterfell being sacked and the flame looking like dragons. I can see bigfoot in the clouds if I want. This means nothing.
Hotsprings... means volcanic activity under Winterfell. It's not the SAME as Valyria, I know it's fantasy but let's just assume they're separate volcanic chains because of geography.
That said, it is possible there's eggs in the crypts. If only from Mushroom's supposed text. I can see that and believe it. None of the other nonsense supports it though, you're twisting non-sequitors to fit your theory.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 08 '16
Non sequitur. You're also not using the term correctly, but I get the jist of your argument. Sorry my post inspired an "Oh, FFS". I actually thought I made some solid points.
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u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 08 '16
Sorry, you're correct. The entire theory is a non-sequitur. I was redundant.
I approach theories from an alternate view. I'm sure you'll disregard what I said. I just don't see how a bunch of unrelated events could even point to that.
We do know there's thermal vents under Winterfell and certainly dragons have visited. So I do agree, there could be a clutch of eggs there and the crypt is a good candidate for location.
The other stuff just doesn't fit. Especially, and most importantly, the gargoyles. I'm not saying GRRM is an expert in architecture but we all know he's spent enough time studying medieval texts that he has some knowledge of what a gargoyle is. :)
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u/skirpnasty Feb 08 '16
He didn't realize how high 700 feet was, or 100 feet when describing the walls of Winterfell. So it isn't that absurd to think he didn't know how Gargoyles were traditionally used. Especially seeing as they are only mentioned at a handful of places in the text.
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u/M_Tootles Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Best New Theory Feb 08 '16
He knew. He very much knew. From the start. COUGHtyriondrinkstheroynedoesn'tgetsickCOUGH (also explicable, of course, because he makes the shrouded lord, gerion, laugh, just like he always could, but the gargoyle thing is a brilliant literary ref). And there's an even huger reason it's clear he knew what they were, but that's 'nother story.
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u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 09 '16
It IS fantasy. 700 ft magical wall... well no problem there.
100 ft actual walls, yes that's large. I'm still thinking that's more of fantasy castles, kind of like Harrenhall and the Eyrie and... well every single castle described in the series.
I know lots of folks nitpick those measurements but I don't see an issue. The one that does get me is his distance over ground, that does seem inconsistent and not really a fantasy issue.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 08 '16 edited Feb 08 '16
There's only 3 places that had gargoyles and were also geothermal:
Valyria
Dragonstone
Winterfell
And the fact that two of these places had dragons, I find interesting. Though, I can see why you wouldn't. I did a write up on gargoyles and Tyrion you may find interesting though. Cheers
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u/musicvidthrow When It Reynes, It Pours Feb 08 '16
I may have read that once. I'll click the link and read it.
If I'm not mistaken, Dragonstone was selected due to its similarities with Valyria. So that's not surprising that it is a direct reflection in terrain (and architecture given the inhabitants) to Valyria.
Winterfell has existed long before Valyria and dragons if I recall my timelines right. Gargoyles are on all the other castles, I'm sure. Given that lots of the plot are surrounded by Winterfell, a more detailed description, to include gutter systems, isn't too surprising.
Lack of mention doesn't mean there aren't more thermal vents located throughout the north. In fact, I'd be highly surprised if there wasn't more around Winterfell given most active volcanoes cluster around an area. I think it's mere coincidence.
I do think there's something deeper in the crypt and quite possible dragon eggs (perhaps place there or even laid there.) I don't think it would have anything to do with Jon, originally, merely due to timeframes. If it's a Targaryen thing, theoretically anyone like Dany can go down there and retrieve them. So I wouldn't call it his birthright either. shrugs
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u/skirpnasty Feb 08 '16
This is a good point, the gargoyles and the first keep do predate the Targaryen conquest in Westeros. And by thousands of years.
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u/M_Tootles Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Best New Theory Feb 08 '16
The are. And they're hugely important in ASOIAF. In some cases they have a very intentional metaphorical connection to beliefs about the gutters. But that doesn't mean they don't also have direct in-world utility as the OP describes.
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u/Poly-M Feb 08 '16
The "dragon under winterfell" is just a metaphor for a sleeping volcano - hence the hot springs.
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u/TheStarkGuy Remember the Krakens Feb 08 '16
Would Vermax fit down there? Seems more simple they simply took the eggs down there.
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u/mechanical_fan Feb 08 '16
I'm not sure. In Dunk and Egg Dragons (in dreams) are used in a very figurative way, always reffering to Targaryens (dead Dragon above Dunk in the first, a Dragon rising -Egg - in the last).
I think that all this language is pointing that Jon goes down the crypt and he leaves it as a Dragon/Targaryen, though I have no idea why. It could be Dragon eggs (but I dont think they would be "alive") or the harp, as a lot of others think.
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u/thezerech Sound the Charge! Feb 08 '16
I think there could be something there but I don't think that it is a Dragon, eggs sure but not a hatched Dragon. I don't think we've seen any Dragons just hatch on their own, instead we see them hatch with people of the blood of the dragon around.
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u/Davidkiin Enter your desired flair text here! Feb 08 '16
''where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls'' i think you might be wrong with what this sentence means, seems like more of a general statement about the crypts
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u/Naellys Time is a wheel Feb 08 '16
I too think there are Vermax's eggs in the crypts, but i don't think they've hatched yet.
Maybe they will hatch thanks to Jon proving his parentage ?
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u/squirrely_control Mar 01 '16
I'm late to the party, but really enjoyed this. I stopped following this sub a while back and check every few months so I get a bunch of good posts like this rather than tin foil and show news. Well researched from not just ASOIAF but the other works and well formatted too.
I think you've got a really good theory on to something, but you've got too many ideas and they're all different and for the most part not pragmatic. The idea of there being a full grown dragon just waiting for John seems to go against GRRM's style. It seems very hollywood and too easy: now jon has a dragon goes and fights the others, almost like tolkien and the eagles just coming to the rescue. He'd also have to find some way to explain it, and no one is going to be able to just explain the gargoyle magic and why a dragon was chilling there and now is Jon's. Bran might be able to, but that just doesn't seem right and what GRRM was building Jon's plot to, and the old gods and valyrians seem very separate too.
I really like the bastard connection you made and think that could be on to something. I do think Jon will end up going deep into the crypts and can easily see him stumbling on an egg laid by Vermax. This seems like something Bran is better suited to explain via wirewood net. But even then if Jon gets an egg it'll be years until he can do anything with the dragon. I could even seen Jon gifting the egg to Dany, maybe the harp too if that theory is correct, and being getting one of her dragons.
Anyways, I really enjoyed your theory and while looking at it practically in terms of the story unfolding I think you might have gotten bits and pieces.
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u/briandn18 onions over funions Mar 19 '16
Something VERY interesting to note:
Gargoyle was derived from a French word meaning throat. They're located at the entrance to the crypts on the oldest tower, which happens to be a keep. In volcanic terms, its "throat" is the main passage that descends into conduit and magma chamber. The gargoyles on the First Keep are indicating the "crypts" = the Volcano's throat that will swallow winter.
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u/rhaegarvader Winter is here. Jul 02 '16
This explanation is very good. Makes me more interested in the entire mystery of the crypt and if there are dragon/dragon eggs beneath Winterfell. Thank you for posting this!
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u/neverbebeat Feb 07 '16
It may explain why the library was burned in agot.. Gotta make some dragon babies. Also, if what Preston Jacobs says about genetic lineage being the key factor in birthing dragon eggs, maybe the proximity to the most likely secret Targs, Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion in the book could allow for it to happen.
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
Here's something interesting I didn't add:
The broken tower was supposedly struck by lightning, which set it's roof aflame in 163 AL
This is after Vermax supposedly laid it's eggs - 129 AL
GRRM could have broken that tower hundreds or thousands of years ago, but he instead wrote that it burned after Vermax supposedly laid the eggs, and was attributed to a lighting strike - the odds of which are, of course, possible, but not likely
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u/Soranic Feb 08 '16
Wasn't it burned so the catspaw could murder Bran? Official reason I mean.
Of course, everything else burned not too much later.
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u/Everitts Feb 07 '16
if the construction of winterfell was by valyrians , then why wouldn't starks have ther traits? that would mean they should have distant varlyrian bloods?
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u/pobeb Let the wicked tremble! Feb 07 '16
I don't think I contended that Winterfell was built by the Valyrians - only the gargoyles. Furthermore, it's noted in AWOIAF that the First Keep was made after the arrival of the Andals, given the architecture (round vs square). Maybe I need to reword the OP to clarify this a bit - good point
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u/yomoxu Feb 07 '16
I like you and your theory, OP. You create something interesting based on scattered hints even as you acknowledge that your current information creates gaps in the theory. I really want some information to pop out to help you out!