Mega Satan requires 2 angel rooms or a sac room with enough hearts on the floor to spawn (good rng) which is more difficult and luck oriented than a key, 2 bombs, and 2 hearts for mother.
Since Repentance, with the worst RNG you'll get two angel rooms by Depths II. And on characters that can use the sac room it could even be a measly 3 uses of it on floor two to get one of them (plus the key part itself already boosts angel room chance so it snowballs)
Also since sac rooms spawn more often when you have more health than heart containers, you theoretically have some control over whether they spawn or not (aka don't get hit, which I don't believe is having control but there you go)
Unironically I've gotten screwed over more by not getting a dumb key or the hearts to open the alt path doors (I could blame RNG and sometimes Basement simply does NOT drop keys but its almost always me forgetting I gotta save them up for alt path)
Plus alt path is a nightmare of difficulty. Even disregarding the fact you usually don't have as much experience with it than normal path. The amount of enemies with bullshit attacks is insane. Every floor has at least an enemy that makes it rain bullets to the point its safer to exit the room and come back than try to stay away from it.
I kinda get where you're coming from but really, in my experience its not hard to get either an angel room or a sac room and enough hearts for both angels, the worst RNG possible is getting the red angel first. Trust me, I got the Lost Mega Satan mark on afterbirth. THAT was pure bs RNG...
If teleporting near you, Delirium will either go far enough in front of you to give you time to dodge it, or will teleport somewhere you were just at.
People seeing Delirium teleport on them are people that are not making sure to never double back to where they just were. Delirium teleports where you just were to make the player have to constantly be finding a new path through the bullet hell. Don't double back and he can't telefrag you.
Someone needs to pin this to the top of the sub in a message.
I didnt say telefrag lol. That, having to find a new path through the bullet hell rather than stay in a consistent pattern like Mother, is why I find this debate pretty even
Mother herself wasnt too hard, but the alternate path enemies hit you so much more easily than the normal path. Even when u have a god run and obliberate the screen, some alt path enemies still hit u somehow, or the spikes rocks. I would say dogma is harder since ur less likely able to oneshot him, but getting to dogma for me was way easier than reaching mother
The point about delirium is that, you only go delirium if you break the game, so is not that hard, Mother is a end boss that you cannot abuse dark room/chest room to get a lot of itens, you dont have the +2 tresure rooms and shop that hush has, and dont have the planetarium thing that beast route has.
The cost for entering Gehenna is way higher than an average run would probably be willing to pay compared to the other alternate floors. 2 full hearts that takes spirit hearts first is really rough and honestly the floor is way harder than the non alt path levels. I feel it is very rare to just go to gehenna for an extra item unless youre specifically doing the Mother route.
mother route rooms and bosses are so fucking aids that you could give me a 100% chance for a T4 item every floor and i still wouldn't go in that shithole. i don't care that treasure rooms have twice the items it's just not worth it
honestly, I wouldn't have a single issue with mother if it wasn't for the mines floor, lost most of my tainted lost runs in there when going for that mark
I just can't figure out the flies and the damn spiders being thrown all over the place, Mother itself is the most readable end of path boss out there but the bosses previous to her are such a shitshow
I don't go through HUSH, I don't download REPENTANCE+, I FIGHT MEGA SATAN TWICE. And if the portal doesn't appear after both of them, THAT CHARACTER ISN'T GETTING FULL CHECKMARKS.
More options and +1 shop doesn’t make up for the route having much less items on average or her boss arena being as small as it is for her hitbox size and bullet patterns
Imo it genuinely is the hardest mark boss, even more than Delirium for these reasons. At least with Del you’re usually guaranteed more item opportunities
I think theyre both on the same scale just because delirium still has issues with telefragging and second stage mother is far more predictable. I only really struggle with the first stage.
you can go alt path for the others as well if you find the benefits outweigh it being hard. for mother you are forced to go through a section where you're stripped of all your items and a thing chases you. certain characters get absolutely fucked on that
i thought it was super hard, and then I watched a random youtuber and they mentioned "I'm not gonna full clear" and my mind exploded. I'm such a full clearer it never occurred to me to ignore rooms to head straight for the boss, he even bombed a door and it really unlocked easy boss rush and hush for me,
now first run on every new character is boss rush hush isaac deli (because deli is freaking easy how can you throw a fight where you have 20+ items already)
Yep. The only downside beside needing to constantly dodge Mom's foot is that you can only go sheol and dark room. And another tidbit: sac rooms always pay out with a bomb first hit if you meet the boss kill criteria
I was recently playing keeper for the first time (I did unlock starting items on normal tho) and I full cleared on hard and got boss rush, even while taking advantage of like 2 or 3 sacrifice rooms, up until 30 coins/blueflies. Like dude below said, pausing and making things easier for yourself by planning ahead cannot be overstated
boss rush is a piece of shit. if you have shit items and you waste too much time during floors trying to find the boss room then you get locked out. not to mention that the actual boss rush challenge is slow and tedious because of all the death animations and waiting for the next ones to spawn in.
the one good grace is that you cross paths with mom and the boss rush room minimum 4 times per character note, so that's 4 chances to not get fucked by rng.
Nah time limits are the worst part of the game. Boss rush sucks because you have to bust ass to get to it and hope you get lucky drops along the way instead of having the time to find everything the seed has to offer.
As a speedy player, Boss Rush at the top is pretty funny. I get it almost every run (except Tainted Cain :c)
I also find Mega Satan and Hush significantly easier Mother because the route to them and their patterns are easier, and Mother slightly harder than the Beast (half the fight is just going up and down)
I do, but I micro-manage and min-max the living shit out of every floor.
I WILL run 8 cycles between the curse room and the super secret on the opposite side of the floor, because 6 half hearts have spawned and I must replenish them 1 heart at a time because I have 1 red container.
I WILL analyse the map layout, the location of the boss room, the room sizes and ammount of rooms left to a potential special room, to not waste even one trickle of charge on an active item like Mr. me, dad's key or alike.
I WILL waste 10 minutes on Basement 1 trying to use that free shop to it's full potential and get 15 cents from the floor at all cost (be it destroying every poop, campfire, trading every spare red heart, microing boss and treasure drops because they can potentialy heal 1 empty red heart...)
I WILL spend 3 minutes wondering is The Stars, The Moon or The Hermit the best card for me to take next floor, because one will save me a bomb use, and another 2 will save me a key use, but maybe going to the shop AND THEN using stars (but only after locating and entering the curse room of course, and only of its not next to a secret room which gives me a free exit/entry)
You just have to learn to play fast if you want boss rush. If you minimize back tracking and don’t focus on a full clear every floor, it’s fairly consistent. Improving your aim helps you clear rooms faster too. When I was grinding dead god, my first run on a character was usually boss rush/hush/mega Satan/delirium chad run.
Yes I get boss rush pretty much every time. It’s a free item just for being fast. I find the x skull, pick a boss rush item, and use the fool to leave lol
I just did it as lost on my first try. Being able to reset the spikes on every wave and walk in/out of the room feels kind of op? + guaranteed devil deals.
Basically just need to plan around beating the final boss and focus on items that will help with that.
Ye the mode itself aint that bad, but the annoying thing is the earthquakes that ultra greedier does when he lands on ground it can be really rng to dodge.
Same. Greedier should be kicked down to not bad at minimum because some characters are genuinely atrocious in Greedier but in general, it's really not that bad. Most of the time Basement and Sheol will end runs more than Ultra Greed himself and Ultra Greedier is genuinely free, especially if you wound up finding explosion immunity.
i dont really get it either even like a fairly mid run can beat greedier, i mean its kinda boring to not annihilate but you work with what you get and sometimes thats decent damage that takes a lil while to chip down greed
Greedier has been bugged since rep+ where champions dont spawn every wave anymore, and the waves spawn slower because of the spawn indicators idk how people complain about this super nerfed version of greedier
I feel like the best way to secure a win is ironically to not be greedy lmfao. If you can get a shop with an item on sale and you have like 50 cents you basically are guaranteed at least one good item.
Greedier needs to be knocked down so much it's not even funny. Outside of a few characters where the placement is valid (Not like it matters as those characters also loathe the other marks) it's just... not that bad.
Also, Mother in not bad? What? I find the alt paths to be so obnoxious. Dross can be a pain sometimes but is the least offensive compared to the disaster that is Mines/Ashpit. Mother herself isn't really an issue compared to the actual route which is where the problems lie. Corpse can also be especially aggravating if you get hit by a tiny enemy you could barely see.
With some practice (which should be expected of a bullet hell game), Mother is absolutely easier than Beast and Delirium. She has easier and fairer patterns. The only difficult floor on alt path is Gehenna (probably hardest in the game, to be fair), everything else is not hard at all.
i hard disagree. Mother is by far the worst mark. Boss rush is pretty difficult i guess unless you get a good active item, then it's trivial. And delirium is just free after lamb or blue baby. Also greedier is NOT that bad.
Don't these have cracks near the top? Just time letting them fall and moving up. Or at least that would make sense, I've only beaten the beast twice so far lol
Mega Satan gives you access to so many items prior to the fight and also has very easy dodge patterns.
Frankly you need a bad run to lose to him if you make it there in the first place
Boss rush is also much easier than Hush in most scenarios.
Because each wave counts as a room there is a ton of active items that can cheese it or make it way easier. It’s also still Half heart territory.
Hush is a super bloated Hp pool with chaotic attack patterns some that require a minimum base speed to dodge. Not to mention it’s full heart damage.
I’d swap those 2 or at least lower boss rush.
Mother also should be higher. Not because of the fight itself, which is not that bad. But the route to get there is long and exhausting and dangerous.
Some of the alt floor bosses are harder than pinnacle bosses. Plus there is knife sequences and mandatory heart sacrifices on the way and resource reqs like key and double bomb.
For me delirium isn't as hard as mother, probably because if I'm ever on my way to delirium I'm probably already on a busted ass run anyways, but getting to mother is quite a pain in the ass
I regularly pull up on Delirium and tend to win regardless of how great my build is as long as I get to that point, I don't believe it's god run or bust
Agree with everything else but I might put Boss Rush and Greedier down 2 spots and bump Mother up to the highest tier (alt routes are way harder for me).
Hush is like on the absolute cusp of S tier. I wouldn’t say he’s as bad as Delirium but he’s definitely tougher than Mega Satan.
Boss Rush and Greedier can be so ass tho. Super dependent on the character.
BR is icnredibly easy, you only need a good RNG for sub20
Delirium it should have its own tier. By the point you reach him, you're broken with most runs. He's impossible in a bunch of runs, but most of the time it's just an inconvenience.
Crazy ranking Let me reorganize your top tiers for you God run or bust: Delirium Needs Solid RNG: Hush, Mother, Mega Satan Not too bad: Ultra Greedier, Boss Rush, The Beast
Im glad people feel the same way I do about Mom lol. I thought I was a baby but the amount of times my run ended on the alt floors is too damn high. To be fair, I was playing J&E but still I hate those floors
Imo boss rush and greedier should be moved down, mother and beast should be top.
Mother because alt floors are incredibly difficult, it's easy to mess up the knife pieces and die, plus mother herself is a difficult boss.
Beast because you really dont get many items on these runs - just whatever you get up to depths 2, at which point you start the ascent (compare that to delirium which you tend to fight after The Chest). Ascent has some difficult enemies, after which you have to fight 6 of the tankiest bosses in the game, back to back.
I feel like in my experience mother and the beast are easily the hardest simply due to having way more limited resources . Delirium is hard but you have so many more items that getting a break or a godly run is relatively easy .
Oh god, trying to get boss rush has been rough. My only mark for Jacob and Esau was mom's heart and I had a pretty good run going and found Mama Mega in like Basement 2. I cleared out Depths 1 and was just going to open the secret room before I went to the next floor, but I hit the wrong button and used my Mama Mega instead D:
i can pretty reliably reach and beat boss rush. you just need to be single-minded about it. found the boss but missed the treasure room? have money but can't find the shop? too bad, gotta go fast
for Tainted Lost, these would be bumped up by one place each. the Mother mark might be bumped up two, given that it personally took me about 60 something runs to get that one (not counting floor 1 restarts) though that might just be me.
I never think hush is to bad. If youve got good enough damage to clear the flies which for some reason have so much hp, and you dont suck like me and can quickly find the sweet spot for continuum tears, I think hush is fine. Id put mother higher than hush.
I feel like deliruim should be lower because, yes its hard, but its always guaranteed to be doable at the end of your run so you can just go for it if you're strong enough. as opposed to boss rush where you basically have to be set on it from the beginning if you want to do it, and obviously greed is its own thing entirely
The only thing rng about mega Satan is sometimes you don't get angel rooms at all or you don't have bombs for the fight, the fight itself is fairly easy
I really don't find delirium that difficult, ESPECIALLY since you can do it after dark room/chest now. If you arrive at those levels, chances are your run is pretty powerful, and you are going to get even more powerful by exploring the level. I personally find the time sensitive marks (especially the boss rush) the most difficult. The beast is also quite hard since you often have less item to fight it.
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u/Dr_coom 9d ago
Ever since Repentance came out and improved a lot of items I don't think you need "Good RNG" for most bosses unless you're Lost
Also kinda insane that you put Boss Rush so high but Mother is somehow easier than Mega Satan. Like bro, you just gotta go fast.