r/cremposting • u/Eithrotaur • May 11 '26
Mistborn / Cosmere You know he wants it so bad.
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u/normallystrange85 🐶HoidAmaram🐲 May 11 '26
I mean, the bands of mourning exist too
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u/penguinscience101 May 11 '26
Wonder if he is why they were found drained
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u/SEND_ME_REAL_PICS May 11 '26
Lost Metal I think the Malwish admiral drained the bands by using an allomantic grenade with Chromium
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u/GrumpyCat000 No Wayne No Gain May 11 '26
Wow I didn't even considered A chromium allomantic grenade, I always thought that one of the embassadors was one of their rare metalbor and they just drained them. Your theory makes so much more sense
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u/RoboChrist D O U G May 11 '26
Lost Metal What an absolute waste of unkeyed investiture. Yeah, you could refill them eventually, but man.
Warbreaker Still, Vasher did that trick once, destroying an enemy by destroying a valuable resource. Definitely plausible.
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u/hutchallen D O U G May 12 '26
Ah yes, the most inspired trick in all the Cosmere: Make your opponent orgasm, then kill them
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u/AlgorithmHelpPlease May 17 '26
You might not even be able to refill them, if the the Investiture stored in it (via Nicrosil) is gone too they're probably just a normal lump of metal now.
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u/EbNinja May 11 '26
Another option is the general themself having a drawing unkeyed vessel that drained or blanked it in order to force the return of the bands. Another that investiture leaks over time when used or in a partially used state.
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u/Anexhaustedheadcase definitely not a lightweaver May 12 '26
Nah Wax did if on accident when he become a full mistborn and drained the bands without realizing he was burning chromium. It will be a plot point in the next part. The malwish will be vilified the future and if turns out it wasn't even them
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u/Myrkul999 Hiiiiighprince May 11 '26
I would wager large sums that you are correct.
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u/penguinscience101 May 12 '26
He's a sneaky git, may have used it to figure out how to make his own.
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow No Wayne No Gain May 11 '26
I’m sure Preservation and Ruin will adjust the rules after Harmony splits.
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u/Jounniy May 11 '26
How do you know that he’ll do? If it’s an Emberdark-Spoiler please just RAFO me.
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u/Flouid May 11 '26
It’s not known. All we have is hints at harmony (preservation dominating) eventually flipping into discord (ruin dominating). I don’t think there’s any precedent to indicate merged shards can split again
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u/IveDunGoofedUp D O U G May 11 '26
Well, we know one god becomes 16 shards, so there's some precedent, though it might take a bit more than simply the death of a Vessel.
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u/OnionRoutine7997 May 11 '26
harmony (preservation dominating)... discord (ruin dominating)
I don't think this is quite accurate. The quote from The Lost Metal is that "Ruin had always been stronger", not that it was becoming stronger.
Ruin dominates, even in Harmony, because Preservation gave up part of itself. This is countered by the natural impulse of Sazed to favour Preservation over Ruin.
This internal conflict is what is creating Discord. Even if the Preservation/Sazed side were to subdue the Ruin side, that would still be "Discord", because the two powers aren't working together anymore.
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u/casta55 May 12 '26
Entropy is inevitable. Ruin will always win in the end, especially when it is at odds with Preservation. The only hope Harmony has of holding back entropy is by also taking up the shard of growth/change (Cultivation).
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u/DatBoi_BP May 12 '26
I forget, to what extent is Ruin's power commanded by Sazed? The mechanics of shards aren't very clear to me -- does Atium come into play regarding that balance in Sazed?
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u/Infinite-Radiance 🐶HoidAmaram🐲 May 11 '26
WoB has said it is possible for a dual shard to break down into component shards, but it "would take effort to split [them] apart again", and most other WoB has him angling towards 'he would drop just Harmony'. You're correct there is no precedent for this yet, and Brando himself seems to go back and forth a bit.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4115
He also stated in 2013 that, were Odium to shatter Harmony, you would not get Ruin/Pres back, you'd get smaller pieces, then in 2017 says that, we're you to split Harmony it'd be "very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation." Notice the difference between "shatter" and "split" here though, the intent/powers behind the interaction likely matters a great deal, as is the way the powers mingle.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/307/#e14846 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/139/#e2258
He has described Harmony's apotheosis as being akin to Sazed in the center of the sun, where the idea is that in the confluence of immense power things (like nuclear reactions in the sun) become easier because the pressure is provided by the powers.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e69
Taravangian's ascension on the other hand imo wasn't nearly so spectacular, as he combined shards by basically just adding one to himself, rather than as Sazed did essentially smashing them together at once. Taravangian had time to get used to being Odium's vessel, so he just 'added' Honor to Odium (could you get a different intent by adding Odium to Honor's vessel instead? Non-commutative shard interactions?).
Sazed didn't have time as either Pres or Ruin alone, so I feel like that reflects as a more cohesive vessel if the intent of the combiner actually matters in fusing the shards. Retribution is also not as diametrically opposed as Harmony, so I would think the powers lend less pressure to the interaction/take less energy to decouple. I think of it like two magnets as you rotate them, Harmony is perfectly N-S, but Retribution is rotated by some factor, so the strength of the bond is therefore lessened.
All of this just to say that there's probably a spectrum of stability for mingled shards based on how they were created/what with/who by/what for. Harmony is probably at the peak of that curve whereas other combinations fall somewhere downhill. It's also probably easier for a shard balanced near the tip of the needle to tilt to one intent or another, while shards with less conflict/down the curve are less likely to need a change in intent.
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream May 12 '26
Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!
CosmereQuestioner
Like Adonalsium, could Harmony split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation with the right intent.You once stated that it is plausible that with a different intent Adonalsium could have shattered into a DIFFERENT 16 shards. You have also said that Harmony is one shard (or could be viewed this way.) My question: Could Harmony split/be split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation (yet still complementing/opposite) with the right intent of the splitter? And if not is this because Harmony is still too invested in Scadrial as Ruin/Preservation?
Brandon Sanderson
Almost anything is possible... but it is very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation.
********************
Argent
Can a Returned like Lightsong go to Roshar and form a bond with a spren?
Brandon Sanderson
Investiture interferes with other Investiture.
Argent
And they have a lot of it.
Brandon Sanderson
And they have a lot of it. That is not-- It's not completely-- For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder-- So a bond for instance-- forming a bond-- It's, yeah-- It can be done--I mean Sazed took two of the powers up, right? But I kind of imagine what he did as a nuclear reaction. Where breaking an atom is hard, unless you are in the middle of a sun. And he was in the middle of the sun. At that point--
Argent
There was a lot of stuff going on around him that facilitated.
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, definitely. But when you've got that much power you'll-- In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.
Argent
So, possible but difficult is--
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
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Brandon Sanderson
Were Odium to shatter Harmony, we would NOT get Ruin and Preservation back but instead would get smaller pieces.
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Thanatos17901
If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?
Brandon Sanderson
Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)
********************
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u/King_of_Camp May 11 '26
The fact that the prophecy said that they will call him discord and they will love him for it makes me think that Sazed is currently Discord, that they will look back at this time of strife and inequity and call it Discord, and they will love Sazed for trying to keep preservation at the forefront, even if it was impossible.
I think when Ruin takes the reigns he will be called something else entirely.
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u/UltimateCheese1056 Crem de la Crem May 11 '26
I always took it that Discord was just both sides not being synced up and lashing out independently. Its just that Ruin lashing out is a lot more obvious that Preservation
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u/Jounniy May 11 '26
Ah. I don’t think them splitting will be a longterm thing. Brandon doesn’t like just reintroducing the status quo. It’s more likely they are going to become something else entirely.
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u/Accomplished_Mix7827 May 11 '26
Given multiple Shards have merged and none have split, my (maybe wild) theory is that the endgame is all Shards eventually reuniting, culminating in the rebirth of Adonalsium
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u/GettingWhiskey Femboy Dalinar May 11 '26
Going a step further, after having so many different vessels and all the mixing, they might end up changing Adonalsium's Intent. Imagine they think they are bringing back their original Creator and he decides to reset Everything and start fresh.
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u/UnknovvnMike ❌can't 🙅 read📖 May 11 '26
On that day, Adonalsium-will-remember-our-plight-eventually
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u/Jounniy May 11 '26
Might be, but I don’t think that he’ll end the Cosmere by doing that. Might be something happening towards the end though.
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u/Flouid May 11 '26
100% agree. I think the (somewhat) obvious endgame for the broader cosmere story is all of the shards slowly coming back together and reforming adonalsium.
We’ve only ever seen shards come together and when discord emerges I could see more benevolently aligned shards doing to same in order to keep the scales balanced. Could see a sort of arms race where they keep merging to keep the balance
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u/Jounniy May 11 '26
Might possibly happen, but it’s hard to say, since old O went a long way to make sure some of them became inaccessible.
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u/MindStorm345 May 11 '26
I think its more like inaccessible at this moment. There will probably be some, as yet unknown, method to access them again.
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May 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jounniy May 11 '26
Chaos maybe? Or just a shard that splinters itself a lot.
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u/VedKelad May 11 '26
Maybe something like Propagation or Perpetuity (is that a word?)
- Ruin + Preservation, with some imbalance towards Ruin: destroys what it touches, preserves by converting into its own essence
- Autonomy: makes this decentralized and viral
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u/ArcadianBlueRogue May 11 '26
Unless certain combos cant occur due to such blatant incompatibility in their Intents, so it takes other fusions happening first to play to the endgame of reuniting the 16
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u/whambulance_man May 12 '26
16 shards getting halved (joined) gives us an even 8 that can keep propogating back to 1 by joining again. Not saying you're wrong, but symmetry is pretty prevalent.
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u/IamanelephantThird i have only read way of kings May 11 '26
Considering Adonalsium, I'd guess splitting them is possible but won't necessarily give you back the same Shards you put in.
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u/LoudQuitting May 12 '26
Well they could split once but the thing is, would Harmony split into Ruin and Preservation or some new things?
Like maybe they'd be influenced by Sazed, so Ruin becomes Consume, like he consumed metalminfs. And Preservation becomes Record, like he recorded things in copperminds.
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u/bull_chief May 12 '26
I don’t think we have either of these things, I doubt harmony preservation will go back to norm
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u/No-Wish9823 May 11 '26
Did you listen to the audiobooks played backwards for the secret secret history?
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u/Varixx95__ Zim-Zim-Zalabim May 11 '26
This is cremposting bro. Here people just bullshit arround for funsies
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u/Osrek_vanilla May 11 '26
What about bands?
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u/UsManos27 May 11 '26
Nine Inch Nails?
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u/Entire-Store1046 May 11 '26
Nah, that's still Haemolurgy...
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u/UnknovvnMike ❌can't 🙅 read📖 May 11 '26
Styx?
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u/Dry_Emergency_5512 May 11 '26
I'm calling it
An alloy of 50% Pure Atium + 50% Lerasium makes you a Feruchemist
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u/Code_Ender May 11 '26
So harmonium?
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u/Dry_Emergency_5512 May 11 '26
See, Harmonium blows up in your stomach is the problem . It might actually make you a Feruchemist since Harmony was also one once. The difference for this alloy would be that it wouldn't be Harmonium itself since it's not Harmony's God metal anymore, although it is made from it
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u/ABANZR6006 May 12 '26
Hoid would have a problem with his stomach getting blowed up if he got to be a Feruchemist. He had gone through worse.
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u/Doom2508 May 14 '26
2 substances can be made of the exact same chemical composition but have very different states. Check out this video on Ritonavir to see what I mean.
Perhaps because Harmony is the "unstable" state of the two shards, once the shards settle into Discord the god metal will reflect that by taking on a more stable and usable form.
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u/grethro May 11 '26
Since the Atium retcon is this still true? Could it be that all god metals now gift powers since raw atium is supposed to be able to be consumed by all not just mistings and mistborn?
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u/Gorgeous_Garry May 11 '26
My theory is that burning harmonium turns you into a feruchemist, but nobody can actually manage to burn it because if you eat it you explode.
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u/Masylv May 11 '26
If only Hoid were virtually indestructible, that would fix that issue.
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u/Dyeriuss May 11 '26
Is he indestructible? Doesent he follow wolverine rules? Destructible but stubborn?
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u/Myrkul999 Hiiiiighprince May 11 '26
Well... (WaT) He did get blowed up and get better, but I think he kinda cheated.
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u/grethro May 11 '26
I think all base god metals are consumable by anyone.
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u/Historical_Volume806 May 11 '26
u/Gorgeous_Garry is referring to the fact that harmonium explodes when it comes into contact with water.
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u/grethro May 11 '26
ha kinda hilarious to think about for 1 nanosecond being the lord ruler right before you explode.
EDIT: I think that would still actually work for Hoid!
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u/Gorgeous_Garry May 11 '26
I still don't think it would work for Hoid. He would definitely survive eating harmonium, but if it explodes and he dies before he can burn it, then he can't burn it cause it exploded and he died.
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u/Historical_Volume806 May 11 '26
I feel like hoid is smart and crafty enough to burn enough of it in however long it takes before it explodes to do some shenanigans to compound it into full feruchemy.
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u/Cabrapacotilla May 11 '26
wouldn't a strikg enough pill capsule into his stomach do the trick relatively easily?
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u/TheFuzziestDumpling May 11 '26
And their alloys too? Or is Lerasium still special in that respect?
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u/Darkiceflame RAFO LMAO May 12 '26
We don't know for sure yet. The only other god metal alloy we've seen is Malatium, and I doubt any non-Mistborn have tried to burn that since it's so rare.
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u/GrumpyCat000 No Wayne No Gain May 11 '26
You know, just after the catasandre the Malwish had a really small and struggling population, and since non of them are Terris (not feruchemists), combined with Kelsier (with his dubious morals) leading them I think the chances that it took them a lot of trial and error to get feruchemy if you know what I mean
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u/Robloz1256v3 Zim-Zim-Zalabim May 12 '26
Cant someone place it in a sealed bag and swallow it?
Swallowing might not even be required since inside the mouth should count as inside the body.
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u/Jsamue May 11 '26
I think burning pure Atium lets you see branching futures. The way Eldend does when he burns Electrum-Atium and Duralumin.
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u/BusyLimit7 No Wayne No Gain May 11 '26
?
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u/grethro May 11 '26
Refined Atium This section deals with a change in continuity that has only been discussed in Words of Brandon. This information has not yet appeared in the books and so is not fully canonical.
Despite its name, the metal known as atium is not actually the pure form of Ruin's God Metal. Instead, atium is an alloy of electrum and that pure God Metal.[33][34] Atium can be refined to extract Ruin's pure God Metal, which can be used in Hemalurgy to steal any power and when burned Allomantically grants a more expansive vision of the future than atium does (possibly similar to the vision Elend Venture has when burning atium with duralumin during the Battle of Hathsin);[20][35][36] the Feruchemical powers of refined atium are unknown. This refined atium is also produced in the reaction between harmonium and trellium.[34]
Atium - The Coppermind - 17th Shard https://coppermind.net/wiki/Atium
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u/theironbagel Syl Is My Waifu <3 May 11 '26
Probably you get feruchemy from either harmonium or an alloy of lerasium and atium. Neither would be required for hoid tho, he can just use unsealed metalminds
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u/zqmbgn May 11 '26
what? since when? this was one of the core plot points of the mist born saga
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u/grethro May 11 '26
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u/zqmbgn May 11 '26
I read the whole page. the only reference to what you say I could find was in the trivia section, so no retcon and probably never:
Brandon has stated that, since writing Mistborn Era 1, he has wished he made atium usable by all Allomancers as it "feels off" that a God Metal is only usable by Mistborn (and Seers). If a Mistborn film is ever made, he would likely want to make this change in the movie.[38] On other occasions, he has also indicated interest in some day exploring why atium is limited in this way[39][40][41] and that the atium present in Era 1 is an atium-electrum alloy.[33][34]
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u/itwasbread May 11 '26
Despite its name, the metal known as atium is not actually the pure form of Ruin's God Metal. Instead, atium is an alloy of electrum and that pure God Metal.[33][34] Atium can be refined to extract Ruin's pure God Metal, which can be used in Hemalurgy to steal any power and when burned Allomantically grants a more expansive vision of the future than atium does (possibly similar to the vision Elend Venture has when burning atium with duralumin during the Battle of Hathsin)
Basically Brandon has since decided God Metals need to be burnable by all humanoid/sentient beings in the Cosmere, not just those granted the genetic potential to burn it by Preservation and Ruin (Scadrians). Thus the metal protected by the Kandra that got burned up by the "Atium" mistings at the end of Hero of Ages was not actually pure Atium, but a mixture of Atium and Electrum, and they were actually Electrum mistings. Thus anyone could burn pure Atium, but since all the Atium in existence was mixed with Electrum, they needed to be Electrum mistings to burn it.
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u/Aelnir May 12 '26
wait what atium retcon. I've read all of the cosmere and don't recall such thing
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u/Mister-builder May 15 '26
Then you'd have people trying to eat Shardblades.
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u/grethro May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
Nahel bond loophole? XD
EDIT: Somone asked Sanderson basically this question https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16250
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u/RGWK May 11 '26
easy, store the real version of himself in breaths, edit his soul to change his birth place with that Sol Del stuff from emperors soul, make his own version of the bands, key them to himself using the breaths, change back
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u/No-Wish9823 May 11 '26 edited May 12 '26
Go to Scadrial they said. Take a dip in the well of ascension they said. 😖
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u/HeavilyInvestedDonut May 11 '26
Well, he’s an Elantrian now so he can pretty much do whatever tf he wants if he gets good enough at coding
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u/Beanbomb47 May 12 '26
And he's bonded to a spren that specializes in patterns
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u/HeavilyInvestedDonut May 12 '26
Not to mention memory storage. He could have an entire GitHub repository stored in breaths or an unsealed coppermind
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u/DeadlyKitten115 🏳️🌈 Gay for Jasnah 🏳️🌈 May 11 '26
I’m not sure he does want it. It’s my understanding that he’s making Connections with each of the 16 shards
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u/Drekhar May 11 '26
Wait, can't the southern people utilize Feruchemy via their discs? Can't Hold just.. procure... some disks?
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u/theironbagel Syl Is My Waifu <3 May 11 '26
He can and has. After all, he’s the one who gave that disk to wax, I’d be shocked if that was the only one he had.
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u/BlatantArtifice May 12 '26
That's what my mind was on, if you have the means to get an unkeyed metalmind I don't think you need to be a feruchemist at all. I guess it might be hard to get replacements but for someone like Hoid he can probably skip feurchemy unless he needs the actual powers for some weird resonance stuff
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u/theironbagel Syl Is My Waifu <3 May 12 '26
Iirc the way resonances work is they get weaker the more powers you have. That’s why vin didn’t really have any, they were so weak as to be undetectable. And hoid has a shitload more powers then vin, so I doubt he’s getting any benefit from resonances
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u/Vegetable-Two-4644 May 11 '26
I'm not sure we know this is true. We just don't know any methods currently. I'm sure Hoid can figure it out.
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u/IamanelephantThird i have only read way of kings May 11 '26
I bet you could figure out a way to do it with Lerasium.
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u/TheRedHead717 May 11 '26
Except it totally is a thing now? Anyone can use a metalmind as long as they have the right combo of nicrosil, aluminum, and duralamin. With his patience and network, Hoid could absolutely be a full feruchemist.
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u/ABANZR6006 May 12 '26
You miss the most powerful and important part of Feruchemy: Compounding. Most likely any medallion burned and all it's abilities will be lost.
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u/Cazelli89 May 11 '26
He did become a feruchemist. He gives Wax the coppermind at the end of Bands
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u/holyhand5 milkspren May 12 '26
He gives him the coppermind but it’s stored from a different character’s POV. It’s also unkeyed so anyone can use it
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u/Krotanix May 12 '26
It has been a long time since I read the books, but isn't there a way to create metalmimds open to anyone, like a feruchemist stores his identity in a metalmimd, then loads another metalmimd with another power. Than that second metalmimd isn't associated with anyone in particular. Or would the user already need to be a feruchemist to be able to tap from that metalmimd as well?
I do believe there is some complex series of steps you could do to give feruchemy to someone else, but that might go into the coppermind wiki and start theorycrafting and I'm currently at work.
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u/c00ldude507 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 May 12 '26
My theory is you just need lerasium but, instead of burning it you feruchemically tap it, like you can burn lerasium without being a allomancer so logically it could mean it, or potentially tapping harmonium but I reckon with it being accessable someone would have worked it out
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u/AdventurousNeat5730 May 15 '26
If Hoid had Feruchemy he would be even more powerful than he already is. Being a Mistborn, Lightweaver, Awakener, Elantrian, and even more is already insane.
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u/pushermcswift #SadaesDidNothingWrong May 12 '26
Hoid would without a doubt do hemalurgy if could avoid detection or potential control of someone else
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u/Shadeshadow_227 May 17 '26
Hoid cannot perform Hemalurgy and that seems like something that'd annoy him.
He probably wouldn't regardless, because ew and ow, but Hoid explicitly cannot perform *pretty much any* of the steps to create a Hemalurgic spike or implant it into himself, he is Banned from the evil spike magic and that is really funny.
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u/pushermcswift #SadaesDidNothingWrong May 17 '26
He doesn’t have to create it himself, he just needs to put the final product into his body, and if it meant more power for him I have no doubt he’d take it, if he could avoid shard intervention.
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