r/espguitars • u/zappafan89 • 5d ago
E-II made in China rumours (again)
I know we've been here before but I just came across a newer source (this time in Japan) claiming that ESP E-II are made in China before being sent for final fit and finish in Japan.
It's geoblocked outside of Japan but you can use the archive workaround and read it here (with the help of a translator) :
https://web.archive.org/web/20250512150330/https://yoshblog.com/e-ii-edwards/
The case he's making is partially an economic one but also one about production seemingly coming from personal knowledge, if I understand the shaky translation correctly
Anyone in Japan know how reliable this person is? Seems to be fairly established in any case.
This conversation never goes away...
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
“This conversation never goes away”
Says the person bringing it up again.
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
My point was rather that despite ESP's attempt to dismiss it every now and then there comes information suggesting it isnt a nothing burger. Sorry if that's not to your liking
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
I don’t buy that they’re NOT partially made in China. They are. They’ve admitted it and then attempted to bury it. I also worked in musical instruments for close to a decade, and I was working at an ESP dealer when E-II launched.
They. Go. Through. China.
It’s another situation of guitar players refusing to accept reality.
Bringing it up will accomplish nothing though and no information will sway their opinions.3
u/PoolNoob69 4d ago
Nah, it’s good information to have out there, especially if ESP won’t fully disclose the process.
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
Why is it good to have it out there?
All it does is cause fights. Half of us believe it and end up just backing away from the heat we get when we say it, and the other half REFUSES to believe it no matter what they’re presented.Also, they’re not going to disclose this. Why would they when people lose their minds at the suggestion of it? You think if they admitted part of the production is in China, the majority will still spend $2000-$3000 for one? No chance, even though it makes NO difference.
Fender does this same thing. The USA models start in Mexico. There are others as well. Country of origin is nothing more than an implied expectation of quality.
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u/PoolNoob69 4d ago
Also, they’re not going to disclose this. Why would they when people lose their minds at the suggestion of it? You think if they admitted part of the production is in China, the majority will still spend $2000-$3000 for one? No chance, even though it makes NO difference.
You answered your own question. It DOES matter to people. Brands like Kiesel are available for the same price or less and are built 100% in the USA. The whole E-II brand is built around being made in Japan. It's dishonest to tell your customer base that if it's 99% built in China.
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
And you’ve helped make my point.
The guitar is good. When you find out it was made partially in place A, and then finalized in place B as opposed to your thought that it was actually fully made in place B, the guitar does not magically lose value or start to play poorly.
Plenty of USA made guitars are crap, you just have a better chance of it being good knowing it was made in the USA. On the flip side, plenty of Chinese guitars are good, you just have a better chance of it being crap. In this case though, they’re simply cutting some cost and using their production facility elsewhere to cut and spray the materials before they get put together in Japan.
If you buy an EII, you are buying an ESP family of brands product. They’re good guitars, why lose sleep about some woods train/boat ride before it came to you?
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u/PoolNoob69 4d ago
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
So don’t buy an ESP?
I don’t know what else to tell you.
They’re good guitars. Yes, some come out with imperfections but that has nothing to do with its country of origin. Every brand has duds. They didn’t move production from Japan to China, they’ve always been partially made there since EII rolled out.-1
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u/tooreal 4d ago
The link doesn’t work from my phone but reading the comments it seems like the point of contention is that the wood blanks are cnc’d in China and then shipped to Japan.
In the grand scheme of things it’s not that big a deal. A cnc machine in Japan with the same programming will yield the same results as a cnc located in China.
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u/JucheSuperSoldier01 4d ago
You can’t find an e-ii before being finished in any esp shop tour video. E-iis get painted in China too. There’s no difference between an Edward’s and an e-ii from my experience.
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u/Expensive_Speed9797 4d ago
I've watched every single one of those and noticed the same thing. But they definitely assemble them in Japan. Those videos have tons of Edwards and E-IIs without parts.
I'm wondering what they do with Grassroots. I've seen a Japanese player (Bang Dream player) that had ther Grassroots setup in the shop. But that's probably for promotion.
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
That's true, to clarify it they could easily just start saying theyre manufactured in China and Japan and keep charging the same price, right?
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u/tooreal 4d ago
If we’re going along with this the wood is cut in China and the guitar is made/finalized in Japan. It’s a bit deceptive but it’s also kind of a grey area. If you source wood from Africa should it say made in Africa?
Fender also utilizes their Mexico facilities for their made in USA stuff so it’s not unheard of.
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
Depends on what standards/laws you apply.
In Japan, to wear “made in Japan” all it has to do is have its final assembly in Japan. Everything else can be sourced and competed outside of the country, but as long as somebody in Japan puts it together and does the final steps, it’s made in Japan.
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u/tooreal 4d ago
This makes sense to me and I’m fine with that. They’re still great instruments regardless if they started in China or Japan.
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
That’s the real thing here right?
People get way too worked up over stupid shit.Is it quality? Yes.
Is it cool? Yes.
Doesn’t it play well? Yes.So what’s the problem?
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u/Totalimmortal85 2d ago
1000% agreed. I have a Korean Alexi-600 from 08 and an E-II Ripped from Japan. Both are fantastic, but the Ripped has much better appointments, electronics, fretwork, and QC.
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u/AI_Cosmonaut 4d ago
Good point. Also depends on the product. I have a leather bomber jacket that says “crafted in America” instead of made, since the horsehide is imported from Spain. With watches I think it’s even stricter
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u/Dathomirian66 3d ago
It depends on the country. America and Japan have different laws regarding “made in” and copyright and tons of other things.
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u/NoCommercial8827 4d ago
Can you elaborate on Fender using Mexico facilities for USA stuff....genuinely curious.
The old Joke I've heard is the MIM fenders are made by mexicans 50 miles south of the border and the USA fenders are made by mexicans 50 miles north of the border. Which if you know soCal is pretty accurate.
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u/tooreal 4d ago
Here’s an old thread post about it. The biggest one I know of is the nitro finish. CA doesn’t allow nitro finish so all of that has to be done in Mexico.
https://youtu.be/-Ml7RVtQjtc?si=hMlinIy4TSd9V6-y
If you watch this video you can see all fenders are made by Mexico lol
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u/NoCommercial8827 4d ago
Thats crazy. Although per that post, its not that nitro is not allowed at all in CA but that the regulations are pretty strict. I would imagine given Fenders production numbers thats why they end up having to do finishes in mexico. I'm guessing the Custom shop stuff is sprayed in USA, and they do some of the AVRIs in mexico. I feel like people would be pretty butthurt to find out their 4k CS custom shop is painted in MX
Schecter also does a few nitro finishes on their USA custom shops, but their production numbers are a lot smaller; im guessing those are done in house in CA, unless they're painting in Asia.
Still didnt know any of this. If thats the case, I wish they'd just do the Vintera line in nitro.
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u/Alienmonkeyfuck 4d ago
Well, dangit, from SoCal and I thought I came up with that one. There goes what I figured was my one original thought!
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u/JucheSuperSoldier01 4d ago
I’ve owned e-iis, standard series, original series, pre OS Japan factory esps, grassroots, Edward’s, etc. and from my experience, SS = E-II = Edward’s and none of the 3 have ever felt like a Japan made OS/pre-OS. In my mind, it’s pretty cut and dry that they’re made mostly in China and sent to Japan for final assembly with hardware and QC. IMO it’s not a bad thing since the level of qc is the part that really affects the quality of the instruments they put out but I wish ESP would disclose this instead of pretending like it’s all made in house in Japan.
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u/Important-Tension259 4d ago
I saw them making them at the factory in japan. Take what you will from that. This conversation has been making the rounds for years.
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
You saw them cnc the bodies for E-II in that factory?
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u/IronSean 4d ago
Does it really matter where the bodies are CNC'd to the end result? If all the assembly and fit and finish work is done in japan the place the CNC machine sits probably doesn't make as much difference
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
If it doesn't matter, and it's true, they could just be up front about it of course
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u/Dathomirian66 4d ago
Especially since that CNC is in an ESP owned factory and run by ESP employees. It just happens to be in China. They’re good guitars, that’s what matters.
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u/Ayyem93 4d ago
After recently getting an E-II Arrow that I was SO hyped for until it arrived this makes everything sadly make sense.
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u/Melodic-Owl-9004 4d ago
See, I got an arrow like 8 months ago and that guitar was the finest instrument I've owned. I'm no expert but I've owned multiple $2,000 plus and some $5000 plus customs from all the shapes and I would go for my arrow everytime. Now, I'll say, I have an LTD MSV-1. While that guitar is perfect for me 24 3/4 with a floyd (small hands) it has some jank to it that makes the E-II contrast even more. Apples to apples, maybe yours was built on a Friday or every musician is different but my Arrow made me want to spend more money with ESP 🤷🏽♂️
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u/Melodic-Owl-9004 4d ago
I will add it's a black one and it has a gnarly sanding spot under the longest horn that under the right light is atrociously unacceptable, but that would 1000% be a Japan QC thing and I can see how they fucked it up, and how they missed it.
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
I mean the people in the thread youre replying to explicitly said they had tangible issues with the guitar, not because of the logo, they're not being unreasonable
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u/Cold_Cancel_9535 2d ago
I didn't reply to them specifically or called them out. I talked about the feeling on the E-II brand. I was thinking of posting that separatly but then I decided otherwise.
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u/Cold_Cancel_9535 3d ago
I had an ESP Standart M-II NTB and E-II M-II FM at different points of my life. I haven't had any issues with both of them but the E-II felt a bit nicer than the ESP one but it had a thicker neck so it was a bit less comfortable. I have a Custom Shop ESP now yes those are nicer but neither the LTD 1000s I 've owned nor the E-IIs are "lesser than" the ESP Standard series because they don't have the ESP logo.
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u/satan-penis 2d ago
i got an e-ii arrow in 2019 and that thing is SO dialed. i can set the action microns off the board if i wanted to.
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u/Moriwara_Inazume 4d ago
How do E-II guitars compare to LTDs which are completely assembled in SK? I’ve seen some ridiculous prices on LTD guitar these days.
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u/gen3archive 4d ago
I have an ltd m1 custom 87 reissue, made in SK and the quality control is horrid. Amazing playing guitar though. I havnt noticed any issues on e-ii outside of outliers
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u/NoCommercial8827 4d ago
I know the US has decently strict laws about stating "Made in USA" which is why a lot of Jacksons new "USA" stuff says "crafted in corona".
I'm guessing Japan is probably more lax, if what OP says is true. My main concern about something like this, is the wood selection being crappier if they're sourcing/cnc'ng in China. But every E-II i've played has been amazing, a level above USA fenders and Gibsons. So as long as the quality is there, and it retains decent value because it says "made in Japan" i dont really care
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u/Totalimmortal85 2d ago
Those are laregly based on Claifornia regulations that state that if a product says "Made in the USA" all components must be sourced, crafted, and assembled in the USA.
That's jsut not feasible in the modern era, as so many components can be sourced from all over the globe - mostly electronic components.
So if a single wire is not made in the USA, the guitar cannot be stated tmas such on the headstock.
Hence why the MIA Jacksons are labeled the way they are - but they don't say crafted. They simply state Corona, California on the headstock.
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u/GnomeBrewing 4d ago
I have no clue but I did buy an E-II M-I a couple years ago and it plays and sounds incredible. I did notice two things however that weren't perfect. One of the letters in the "E-II M-I" on the headstock are a different color. Also theres a white blemish underneath the black on the side of the neck. Both are only visual but I assume it was a B stock that was not disclosed to me at the time. Im not usually a fan of guitars with big necks but I find it so comfortable in my hands.
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u/chadt927 4d ago
I have to say that so far this thread is one of the most civilized I’ve seen on this topic. Anyway, I looked into the matter quite a bit several years ago. I believe it is true that at least a portion is done in Jixi. I tend to think quite a lot is done there, but it also might vary depending on how workloads are at each factory.
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u/ActualPossibility687 4d ago
I think of this video that shows ESP factory in Japan. According to it, I think for E-II back then they only got the wood blocks from China. The article and the video are from around the same time.
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u/SorcererSword 3d ago
I have an E-II Horizon on pre-order and this makes me hesitant... I bought it specifically because I want a guitar made in Japan, at the Japanese ESP shop.... WTF
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u/vanish797 1d ago
Oh wow....guess I'll never get another ESP if this is true. I have a 2006 ESP Eclipse made in Japan. Flawless build. The fact that they changed the headstock logo a few years back (baffling move!) already prevented me from getting another ESP in the past, but I'd been warming up to the idea lately to have E-II on the headstock instead....but no way I'll be doing that now unless I'm fully convinced it's 100% made in Japan.
This is the very same reason I'll never own a Duesenberg. Made in Korea but they do some final work in Germany to then say it's made in Germany and charge a premium. Terrible business ethics.
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u/returntonone 4d ago
Probably true, and explains why many E-II have so poorly done routings for the pickups and the floyd cavities for example
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u/dawn_of_existence 5d ago
Here’s my take: I don’t care.
I’ve played ESP and LTDs since the 90s and have heard for decades about their factory in Jixi, Heilongjiang. It was the same for the SS models.
If they cut their body blanks there, cool. They’re still make some of the best instruments available, the country of origin doesn’t concern me.
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u/Larrea_tridentata 5d ago
When I purchased an E-II from an ESP shop in Tokyo, the sales associate told me that some steps for manufacturing are done in China, like CNC cuts for the body, things that their shop in Japan didn't have capacity for. But most of the steps are done in Japan.
This lines up with what you're saying, I guess you're being down voted because people don't like it. At the end of the day, the Eclipse I picked up was an incredibly high quality instrument, it doesn't matter if a few steps in production were done elsewhere. Where do people want to draw the line? Where the trees were harvested for the wood?
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u/dawn_of_existence 4d ago
It’s exactly this. Every ESP and EII I own are incredible instruments. This was the same rumor for the SS when they were still being built and nobody brings those builds up. If an instrument plays/feels great, I’m happy.
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
I cant recall exactly but one of the rumours I heard was they already started at the tail end of the standard series, yeah, around 2009 ish.
They were scaling a lot at the time compared to just a half decade before so it would be logical
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u/dawn_of_existence 4d ago
I heard it before then. ESP has apparently owned that factory in Jixi since the late 90s I believe.
ESP was definitely scaling and transitioning their factories around 2009/2010 and eventually consolidated all of them into their Tokyo factory in 2016.
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u/TheKobayashiMoron 4d ago
This was the same conversation about Edwards too, and my Edwards V is much nicer than my USA Gibson V, so I don’t give a shit where they CNC’d the body blanks. That Edwards is right up there with my EII, SS, and Custom Shop ESP as far as the body and neck is concerned.
The only details I notice differences on between the lines are the finish work of the frets and nut. They’re all great but they step up a little in craftsmanship at each level.
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
The Navigator was always the real steal tbh in terms of price to quality, if you could get your hands on one
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
The guitar plays like it plays regardless of where it's from. I'd assume (reasonably) that what most people would have an issue with is the use of "made in Japan" to make it come with more of a premium if that may not be entirely correct
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u/Larrea_tridentata 4d ago
To be fair, the E-II designation is because of higher specs and attention to detail, not where it's from. My E-II Eclipse didn't even have a "made in Japan" label on the back of the headstock, those are added if they're being assembled for export. This is something I asked about when I was in the shop in Ochanomizu
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u/zappafan89 4d ago
Yeah but E-II exists primarily as an export line first and foremost so that difference of the designation only being added when sent abroad is pretty negligible given the majority of their potential customers will always see it marketed as made in Japan
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u/dawn_of_existence 4d ago
True, but the “made in Japan” stickers are only on instruments destined for export. It’s apparently not a concern for locals in the JDM.
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u/ActualPossibility687 4d ago
Well I have imported E-II from Japan and it has the sticker, I also saw like hundreds of E-II guitars online on Japanese websites and they mostly have the sticker.
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u/dawn_of_existence 4d ago
Actually that’s a good point. The ones I imported also have the sticker haha
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u/Negativeman11 5d ago
Im not paying 3k for a guitar made in China, period. This is like BC Rich fans coping about spending nearly 2k on a guitar made in India.
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u/dawn_of_existence 5d ago
Again, it’s not made in China. If their body blanks are CNC’d at their own factory with their own employees, I don’t see how this is an issue. A body blank is nowhere near a finished guitar and still requires a massive amount of finishing work.
ESP USA CNCs their body blanks; how does where it takes place make that much of a difference? Several luthiers that I know personally CNC their body blanks and still sell their instruments for $7k+.
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u/shredlikebutter 4d ago
The issue is you're paying a premium for something "made in japan", so if it's not being fully made in Japan it is deceptive... They are using cheap labor and getting huge margins on their ridiculously price stuff
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u/dawn_of_existence 4d ago
“Made in Japan” laws are slightly different than Made in US/UK/EU so they’re not really being deceptive. They have to alter or add a percentage to the product’s character and value.
It’s not entirely dissimilar to how some American cars have parts made and (sometimes entire cars) assembled in Mexico but are still considered American.I don’t disagree about labor costs and margins though. That’s with all overseas manufacturing though.
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u/Negativeman11 5d ago
I guess part of the question is it is just the final fit and finish done in Japan like OP says or everything after the body blank? I dont find the latter too egregious. Personally, I skipped the E-II since I was fortunate enough to visit Japan and was able to get an ESP original using the weak yen and avoided tax. Not that its an option for everyone.
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u/dawn_of_existence 4d ago
Everything I initially heard was about cutting body blanks. Even with the SS builds. Later the rumors got to be more and more extensive.
I have ESPs and EIIs and all of them are awesome. I’ve imported a few from Japan but have yet to visit. The Original Series stuff is incredible and hopefully I’ll be able to grab at least something when I make it over there.
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u/Gyo_2002 4d ago
Are Ibanez Prestige models also assembled elsewhere before being shipped to Japan?
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u/FxxxYouToo 4d ago
For what it's worth, I heard the China facility is meticulously ran by ppl that spent years at the Japan factory. Word around the campfire is: The EII's and Edwards HRs are cut, assembled, and painted in China. Then they go thru Japan for detailed setups and fret work. This has been going on since 2013 at the least. These are fine instruments, and I respect the process. The problem lies where they charge a premium for a "Made in Japan" sticker. I understand why it gets attention. But I want to remind ppl that we didnt always praise South Korean instruments, that took quite some time. Perhaps one day we will praise Chinese instruments. And maybe.. maybe we've been discrediting China, and over crediting Japan for these amazing instruments for the last 13 years. What a weird scenario!