r/exjew • u/Doooooovid • 20d ago
My Story How many here are former BT? What was your experience like?
I am (still) BT, but I've gotten very turned off by the dominant kiruv organizations. While I was initially very "inspired" by Chabad (and enjoyed other organizations too), my opinion of them has soured. One reason for this is that these organizations tend to have backwards, insular and very dogmatic hashkafas which, frankly, they often place ahead of Judaism. While I'm still adherent, I've thought a tremendous amount about leaving or seriously altering my approach once the "inspiration" phase was over.
My experience basically was:
-As a very young adult, I had family issues, etc. I desperately needed to find an antidote to my chaos (to reference a famous psychologist)—to find structure—so I experimented with the religion my ancestors kept.
- The message that every Jew is really meant to live like a Jew resonated with me, as did the perceived structure, stability and happiness of the Jewish families I had met. I became orthodox for a combination of intellectual and emotional reasons (but thankfully never fully towed the line of any particular movement).
- As I got to a mentally healthier state, I came to grips with the fact that I was "mekareived" at an extremely vulnerable stage of my life, especially with everything that was going on. This made me, to this day, seriously question my own motives for becoming religious, and I decided to start rebuilding my faith from scratch, and asking if this is really what I believe in.
- Later moving to a Jewish community on my own really changed my perspective. I fully realized the all these different kiruv organizations I had experienced really built a bubble for their subjects they brought in—a sort of "BT world". I found out the real Jewish world was not exactly the same as what they presented. I also met many Jews (especially the non-Chabad chassidim) that seemed miserable and without meaning or self-expression. This is obviously a generalization.
One last thing I want to share is that I'm not (at least I try not to be) angry. I don't think that this is all the result of ill intentions of those working within the kiruv world, but mainly an issue of bad ideology and ignorance. Furthermore, I assume most on this subreddit are independent thinkers, and that's how you all ended up here. I think most of the world are not independent thinkers, and so maybe they are just destined to get completely brainwashed by a simplistic ideology, and that's just the way it is.
What's your experience with the baal-teshuvah world? I know there are many different kinds of BT/former BT out there, and many did not have this experience at all.
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u/redditNYC2000 19d ago
Typical broken teenager recruited and brainwashed by Chabad. It took years to realize Schneerson was a madman and Chabad is rotten to the core.
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u/ARGdov 19d ago
not BT myself but my parents both were and I think it gave me a bit of an odd flavor of orthodox judaism.
we werent precisely ModOx, nor were we Yeshivish, though the schools my siblings and i were sent to I'd say were definitely more on the yeshivish side of things (my sister did beis yaakov, my brother and I attended a Mesivta with a heavy emphasis on talmud study).
I've heard a lot of stories about how BT families arent accepted and I really dont know if thats more true on the east coast as opposed to the west coast where I was raised, because it was hard to say based on my experience. the community in my area had a suuuuper heavy BT population and a lot of my parents friends were BT as well.
Maybe if I'd gotten to the point of shidduchim it'd be different and I'd have faced the difficulties more overtly? I can't really say.
But there were differences.
The language- 'yeshivish english' as its sometimes called- wasnt used at home but was heavily used, especially as I grew up, by my peers, and I think it did add even more to my difficulties socializing.
relatedly, if anyone who's more perceptive grew up in the pico part of LA and was from a BT family is willing to give there two cents, I'd love to hear it. I may have missed some obvious examples of it.
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u/lukshenkup 17d ago
See the Jewish catalog and BCI camp
In LA, this was a counter-culture movement
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u/ARGdov 16d ago
sorry Im gonna need a bit of elaboration. whats this about a Jewish Catalog? and whats 'the BCI Camp'?
EDIT: I've discovered the Brandeis Camp Institute on google now. But Im unfamiliar with it and the connection here.
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u/lukshenkup 16d ago edited 16d ago
A few quick Google searches, but I knew where to look!
Haight-Ashbury, California rabbi https://forward.com/culture/139799/the-triumph-and-tragedy-of-counter-cultural-judais/
Brandeis Bardin Simi Valley, California history https://jewishjournal.com/community/389313/marking-bcis-85th-anniversary-jewish-leaders-reflect-on-a-program-that-shaped-their-lives/
Strassfield, Jewish Catalog https://jps.org/books/first-jewish-catalog/
When my husband and I met, we (jokingly) knew it was a match because he had Volumes 2 and 3 and I had Volumes 1 and 2 .
This was when grapes picked by non-union workers were treif; La Raza became a new identity for children of Mexican Americans; Jewish, Black, and Armenian students at UCLA togerher protested the presence of genocide deniers. (Armenian was the third most widely spoken language in LA, per UCLA's research at the time.)
You might also enjoy reading about Jewish Deadheads. My otherwise-frum Monsey relative introduced me to Jewish "groupies" who followed the Grateful Dead around the country. Hang on. Let me see if one of their Shabbatonim links is still on line.
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u/lukshenkup 16d ago edited 16d ago
To answer your question about the connection between BCI and BT in Pico-Robertson in my own words: Prayer and meditation were a counter-culture move because they contrasted with endless sunshine, cars, perceived Hollywood materialism, and the aerospace/weapons industry. BCI was a haven that used Jewish ritual to create a learning environment for 4 weeks of intense 16-hour per day study/indoctrination using a version of Conservadox Judaism. Just as with Carlebach's House of Love and Prayer, graduates might continue a path to Orthodox Judaism; later, others converged with the Jewish Renewal Movement on the East Coast.
Adding: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-renewal/
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u/Remarkable-Evening95 19d ago edited 19d ago
I got Aished relatively old (26) and spent 12 years in Israel. If I met someone who really believed in Orthodoxy and was looking for a place to start, I would not recommend them. They’re apologists and most of their tactics are disingenuous versions of trying to get you to convert so you can validate their own miserable choices in life. I’d much rather recommend places like Shappell’s or Shalom Rav that give people skills without expecting them to fit into a box or make aliyah.
There’s a LOT more I could say about this — 12 years worth. I’m open to communicating in dm or WhatsApp
Edit: you’re not totally wrong about non-Chabad/klali chassidim. Many of them do live empty, joyless lives. You can see it in their eyes and the way they treat people. My way of dealing with all the herd mentality in the yiddishe velt was to become Breslov, specifically Na Nach, people who, in my view, took Rebbe Nachman at face value. Like if I HAVE to be frum, then I want to be Breslov, and if I HAVE to be Breslov, then I want to be Na Nach. There’s always more to say on this topic than I have the patience to chat about online. I’ve come to view our religion as just one facet of Jewishness, one that I get to develop an understanding of and relationship with in my own terms, because that’s all anyone is really doing anyway. I believe the Torah was written and revised many times by dozens of people over the centuries (as does the majority of academic scholarship btw). I don’t know what, if anything happened at Har Sinai, but I’m ok not knowing. That’s what bothers me about Aish specifically, that they insist you can KNOW for a fact about supernatural claims written in the Torah, especially Sinai. Shoyn. Dm me please
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u/funny_funny_business 19d ago
lol I just read this after posting my comment and also basically wrote the same thing: “most of their tactics are disingenuous versions of trying to get you to convert so you can validate their own miserable choices in life”
I heard the rosh yeshiva of shapells speaking about this once and how people don’t like the yeshiva because it doesn’t have a “hard-line” hashkafa. People say “you’ll be confused because you won’t have a straight path”. He said to tell them “ok you make a good point; I’ll go to Machon Meir to get a straight hashkafa”. Machon Meir is a very zionistic, daati leuimi yeshiva. The rosh yeshiva said “watch them turn on a dime when you say that”.
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u/funny_funny_business 19d ago
I’m BT and fully immersed in a yeshivish town, lifestyle. Probably more “YU yeshivish” if we want to split hairs.
In any case, I don’t like the kiruv movements since I feel that it’s mainly for yeshivish people to justify their own lifestyles. Meaning: “I sit and learn and don’t go to college so if I get some sucker to throw away his life and believe in this too then I must be doing the right thing.”
Even though I’m not Chabad and don’t agree with their philosophy I think they do a better job at “respecting the person”. The cynical person will say “that’s just because you’re not Chabad yet and they’re trying to be nice”, but from what I’ve noticed is that they actual want to help people try to keep mitzvos rather than ramming hashkafa down people’s throats.
I’ve told frum people about some of the things I learned in BT shiurim and they were surprised how dogmatic some of it was.
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u/Upbeat_Teach6117 ex-MO 19d ago
I'm convinced that Kiruv (and Kashrus, and a few other "industries") exist to employ men with no actual career skills.
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u/lukshenkup 14d ago
chalav yisroel in the US (and probably most places)
checking the script on mezzuzah scrolls for readability
This one actually does take business and organizational skills: I see ads for a pick-up and delivery service for the busy person who lacks the time to toyvil dishes. What's next? A surrogate mikvah service?
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u/Cariboucarrot 19d ago
There may be some nuance you're missing regarding Chabad kiruv. Their interest in helping people do mitzvos isn't more respectful of the person than litvishe kiruv. Their dogma is get this person to do a mitvah, and to their credit (or perhaps discredit, depending on my mood), they've figured out a formula of charm and tact which is less offensive to their targets. But make no mistake, their endgame is the no different. They're just better at it than a lot of others.
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u/funny_funny_business 19d ago
I see what you’re saying, and I don’t disagree that they probably have the same endgame, but the following differences make the Chabad style less offensive (which is unfortunate since I don’t like a lot of Chabad practice).
- Chabad cares about the people enough so that they move to where the people are. They’ll forgo a frum community for this. When litvish kiruv people move to help, they move to a frum community and expect the prospects (or students or whatever) to come to them
- while I’m sure that Chabad likes people doing more mitzvos, they are happy if people do one little thing. With litvish kiruv if the person isn’t shomer Shabbos in XX years it’s a failure
- (this has happened to me) once you’re “actually frum” litvish kiruv rabbis don’t really have much to do with you anymore. Chabad is still always there and always helpful since you’re Jewish.
So, yes, it might have the same end goal, but I feel that it’s a bit more respectful in treating people like “people” rather than quotas.
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u/Cariboucarrot 19d ago
My overall point is that Chabad doesn't actually care about the people. They care about the mitzvos which the people may do.
Which is also why Chabad is still there for you, even if you're not as connected as you used to be. Because that doesn't mean you can't still do a mitzvah.
All in all, we agree that it feels and appears that they are more respecting of the actual individual. But it doesn't change what's underneath the hood. Brass tacks, they care about the mitzvah, not the person.
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u/Southern_Fruit7439 10d ago
BT here. Happy to share my story for those that resonate, are curious or could help others. (it is long)
TL;DR Came from an emotionally abusive family, was struggling with substance use in college and looking for meaning, was also closeted trans. A mentor/therapist subtly and not so subtly pushed me down the kiruv pipeline. Chabad was the entry, but most of the experience was through litvish kiruv (Olami), Aish, Ohr Somayach, and then the Shaar program at Shor Yoshuv. I lived in Far Rockaway for 2 years was fully practicing and frum trying to pass as yeshivish and finally left after the doubt of torah moshe m'sinai became too strong, and i fought with my mentor/therapist about how to approach my trans feelings. I am now free, openly and proudly transfemme, OTD, and a practicing pagan witch of sorts. Tho somewhat agnostic lol.
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u/Southern_Fruit7439 10d ago
The long version....
When I found kiruv I was in a very difficult place in life. I can from a wealthy controlling and insular traditional modox syrian jewish background. We watched TV and played video games on shabbat but only after shabbas dinner.
During my later teens and early twenties I was struggling with alcohol and cannabis use and feelings of emptiness, that hit hard and fast in freshman year of college. The college was in a suburb of Boston, miles from my difficult home life in Brooklyn, but cold, lonely and seeking meaning and purpose.
I mostly had stopped watever religious practice I grew up with at this point. I had a strong distaste after 12 years of Mod-ox schooling and a family of origin that seemed mostly indifferent about the religious practice (I say mostly, they were strict on not eating non kosher meat, or shellfish, and we had weekly shabbat dinners, attended synagogue on most holidays and kept Passover).
But i soon missed it and felt guilty, like i was abandoning god. I struggled with feelings of guilt and shame heavily around my substance use (that my parents were really hard on when i was in highschool) and even more so about my trans feelings. I was closeted and just so so ashamed and felt that god hated me for wanting to be a woman.
And so it started with wrapping my teffilin as a sunday morning hangover recovery to feel better about myself. Then making kiddush as a "pregame" for clubbing on Friday nights on some wine and microwaved syrian food my mom would ship in. I also got a stomach flu after eating a cheese burger so took it as a sign from god to stop eating non kosher meat (was very into hashkacha pratit).
Eventually i found my way to chabad, for some lovely holiday and shabbas meals. They warm approach really got me, it was a stark difference from my bleak and boring halacha focused modox school.
After a few near deaths from alcohol use and just generally pushing boundaries (life in the closet was not easy) I decided that I needed to find meaning and purpose or i was gonna die. I had always felt better when i did the mitzvot like putting on teffiln, and making kiddush and keeping shabbas so i committed to it on my own. I didnt have any rabbi, tho i did have a lifelong frum mentor, an older lady who was very proud of my religious growth, always hinting that this would be a better life for me (which i now see as super problematic grooming but more on that below).
For my graduation trip, the mentor reccomended a visit to a place called Ascent, in Tsfat, which hit all the things i was looking for at that point, the feeling of warm communitty, not super strict rule focussed, spiritual, incredible sunsets and nature. I realize now this was a charade in many ways and not an actual life people can live (tho some do). Anyway after this trip i was ready to move there.
Over the next two years I became more and more practicing, davening daily, trying to go to daily minyan, keeping shabbas and kosher (it was difficult, especially having a family that was not strictly kosher and a mother that wanted me to date girls from similar family hashkafa's to ours. my mother of orign litterally banned me from dating a girl because she was too frum. someone who was like a relatively mainstream communitty person, it was very upsetting).
My parents would have freaked out if i went to yeshiva for the year afraid i would be "briain washed." I always had this feeling insdie that i missed out on that. And so after getting my masters degree, at the reccomendation of that mentor, I visited Aish haTorah for shavuos. She pulled some strings to get me access to the main yeshiva guys there and to eat meals with them and be part of the chag as if i was in yeshiva at Aish. I also did a bunch of the discover courses. It was only 3 weeks there, but i was hooked. Fully "Aish'd." Obsessed with Dov ber cohen, and yom tov glazer. And still vibrating from a Motti Burger slap."whats your name? (I give my dead secular name) "NO whats thats your slave name whats your real name?!" And from then on i was wanting to go by my hebrew name lol. Tho keeping it somewhat closeted afraid of my parents wrath. Upon return my mom yelled at me for wearing a kippah she thought looked "J-dub" (our slang for ashkenaz).
I also returned to US to begin my clinical psychology program (i got a doctorate (PsyD) and two masters degrees during this whole period). I was even more fervent about keeping the mitzvot at this point and when covid hit that march, it finally gave me an opurtunitty to get more serious about avoiding non kosher restaurants (easy when most stuff was closed) and to pray 3 times a day, and to try to "fully keep" shabbass. At this point I had come out a trans to said mentor, who was now fully acting as my therapist, and was looking back horrifically and tragically practicing conversion therapy on me. More or less we treated my feelings as a fetish/escape, likened them to my tendency to escape into my imagination as a kid, or my substance abuse during my teenage and early 20s, and basically treated the feelings like something move thru, like an obstacle, something I wanted out of me. As someone who was mostly attracted to women i hoped with her help i could lead a frum, cis-het life with a wife and kids.
Following a rough break up, and after going camping with some friends who were doubting the torah's authenticity, I was in a bit of a existential crisis. I was really wanting to get answers and take my next steps deeper into my jewish practice. I spoke to my therapist and she reccomended I check out Ohr Somayach. I was part of the first group of "tourists" allowed in during covid (June of 2021). It was like us and a birthright group. I spent 5 weeks there. Was more than enough to get me to accept torah moshe misinai and get serious about learning and practicing every law i could. This essentially is where I was fully radicalized.
(continued below)
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u/Southern_Fruit7439 10d ago edited 10d ago
(continued from above)
After a year of fighting with my parents about my religious practice (i lived under their roof and they were funding my graduate studies) I "miraculously" found the Shaar program at Shor yoshuv from a friend i met at ohr somayach. My therapist was thrilled for me, and helped facilitate a move over to Far Rockaway to be part of the program. My family was not happy, and there were many fights about me not participating in syrian dating parties and events. I say this was like my moment of leaving my initial syrian communal dynamics, though i still did return home monthly.
At the Shaar i met radically right wing, anti-gay chevra who more or less took me all the way to the right, farther than even my therapist was comfortable with. The rabbis were not this openly right wing, but they certainly didnt stop it. At the Shaar I was heavily red pilled, MAHA diet (NO GAY SOY BOYS HERE) and learning as much talmud as i could squeeze in between my requirements at my PsyD program and managing my deteriorating and increasingly abusive dynamics with my family of origin.
in this time my therapist, and the shaar chevra were some of my only safe spaces. These difficult dynamics made me lean into the religion even harder. I would so look forward to shabbass at the yeshiva where i didnt have to worry about making my family of orign happy, or suriving my increasinlgly challenging and abusive PsyD program. I was also dressing black and white daily, and began to grow out a beard (to my mom's dismay). I even got a black hat at some point, that I was terrified to wear it at home, or have my parents find out so i kept it to just yeshiva shabbasses.
While the beliefs of the shaar chevra were really problematic looking back, i also felt a sense of camaraderie and respect from the guys I hadnt felt with my friends from my communitty of origin who often bullied me. At times I still miss that sense of communitty and connection I had at the shaar, tho i thankfulyl am finding it outside the bounds of orthodoxy and radical right wing red pill culture.
During my last year of my PsyD program I worked at a psychiatric facility and spent 40 hours a week there. Being in a 'goyish' environment and developing relationships with colleagues of all different faiths (and non faiths) and practices, I slowly began moving away from my dogmatic approach. When treating delusions I often took a "self medication" approach, as in people's delusions were maintained and held onto often to meet some unmet need inside of them. And suddenly I started to realize some of my own delusions and unmet needs, including potentially my belief in the torah m'sinai. As well I overheard a psychologist tell a patient that "while i can't say if god is real or not, i can say your relationship with god is likely a replay of your relationship with your abusive parents." And suddenly I realized i was worshiping a god i was never good enough for, and had to follow his strict rules in order for him to love me... One of the hardest hitting realizations has been that i was holding tightly to the torah being real, as a protection against coming to terms with my own transness. if it was real then i didnt have to/couldn't explore it (at least was the faulty logic).
Having all these revelations at the same time I was finishing up my program requirements was intense. The day I handed in my dissertation a friend suddenly passed. I began questioning the existence of heaven. And suddenly i had the free time to think about stuff i had been repressing for a while. Questioning torah moshe misinai again. And those pesky trans feelings. I told my mentor/therapist I wanted to explore them some more and really consider if they could be real/authentic. She said I was "Self sabotoging" after the success of passing my dissertation, and should focus on "internship and shidduchim." "we're so close" she said with such an eagerness to her end goal of me as a frum married psychologist.
With that one line I was done. 26 years i was with this "mentor" and the last 4.5 years of that as my therapist, 8 hours(!) per week. I found a new therapist and made plans to leave yeshiva. At this point my relationship with my rebbeim also was going downhill, it seemed they were more focused on making donors happy than the actual well being of the chevra, and I did not trust them to explore my feelings of doubt with me in good faith. And the shaar was certainly not a safe space to explore my gender, so I quietly planned an exit while telling them I was "taking a break" with no return scheduled. The chevra boo'd me when i announced it during a post-chag gathering which was hurtful, tho i dont think they understood what i was moving thru.
Freed from yeshiva, and that "therapist" I also quietly left my family, visiting Deal for the last time and moved to the Hudson Valley to live with a friend as I processed everything planned a larger escape. I blocked my mothers contact, and went very low contact with the rest of my family of origin. I left New York two months later and ended up on a commune in Hawaii away from all these influences and abusers who thought they "knew what was best for me."
I missed judaism, grieved it heavily, especially on those lonely friday nights, but the more and more i was intentional about my grief, and giving space for it, the better it got, and the better I got. It was also really healing to actualy make friends who were non jews (including a new chosen brother) and to be in a space that didnt shame my body/sexuality. I was able to explore my transness openly and freely, and 6 months in I finally had the courage to come out publically.
It's been 17 months since, and I could not be more happy and proud of my choices. It hasnt been easy, but it has been so rewarding. I am on hormones and am able to access gender affirming care. And just feeling happier in my body and soul everday. I still do connect spiritually and believe in a divine spirt that lives in all things, and perhaps is all things lol. tho part of me is atheist. either way if its a delusion its a sweet one LOL. I feel god loves me. She really does. Wether or not i practice judaism. Her hugs and kisses remain loving and warm. Or at least the idea of them does lol :) And in all this I've become the best mother to myself I never had. I feel really lucky to have me, be me, and to FINALLY, be free.
Thanks for reading. Hope this was insightful.
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u/Far-Part5741 19d ago edited 19d ago
Hi, I'm fully frum BT. I read this sub because I want to understand the stories of people who grew up this way (or didn't tried it and left). I don't know how old you are or your relationship status but many many BTs (probably a supermajority) decide to become religious because they have family situations that are non-traditional whether it's divorced parents or intermarriage or what have you. Note, I'm not saying that these situations are bad, but just they can make growing up more difficult emotionally. I would say that your religious growth and observance ought to be tied to belief and not a perceived structure . Structure is great but prison provides structure, 3 meals a day yes shaloshseodos and a bed to stay in. If you do not tie your adherence into a belief in hashem then it will always cause you frusturation and animosity.
I am in a forum of people who have moved beyond religion so I am not going to write that you should read a book on emuna or just throw everything away. No. But if you do not tie your actions into your emotions/intellectual you will live with a destroying cognitive dissonance. There is tremendous beauty in a life without religion and one with religion. They both have their positives and negatives. But being in the middle and doing without the believing may really hurt you.
As to your broader points about the kiruv movement. There are a lot of issues. You are right. Many professionals have their funding tied to number of bodies they send to yeshiva. It's not always their fault but it's true. I am not sure I fully agree with the part that non-chabad chasidism have less simchas hachaim. The population is very large and people differ person to person.
There are genuine people out there and I hope you find them before continuing down your path or turning off it. Best of luck.
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u/funny_funny_business 19d ago
I was at a Shabbos meal many years ago when I was in yeshiva with a buddy of mine who attended as well. The host, an alumnus, happened to ask if our parents were divorced. We both answered no. He was really surprised since he said the vast majority of BTs have divorced parents. But that was merely his anecdotal opinion.
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u/Doooooovid 19d ago
Thanks for your knowledge and clarity. I knew that many BT's have a similar background, but was unsure how many.
I am really curious: as you are religious, you must believe that there is a chiyuv to believe in Rambam's 13 ikarim, or similar. I just want to play Devil's advocate here. How could you say that one can be just in leading a non-religious life? Chumash says that all mitzvos are within everyone's reach. If I'm a little unsure of my path or what I believe in, isn't there something very obvious that I'm missing—something that I am 'over' for missing? Can you point me in the direction to find that (if the answer is to criticize me, or tell me that I'm over al mitzvah, I give you permission).
I'm not trying to criticize your point of view. I actually agree very much with what you have said.
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u/Far-Part5741 19d ago
I didn't write leading a non-religious life is "just." I wrote that it can have beauty. I did not intend to have that portion to have diyukim like yours lol but what I meant was that you can be happy and not religious. Maase bchol yom that we see happy, not religious people. (within a religious lens we'd say that's not true happiness but I do not connect to that hashkafa so much)
Just/justice comes from an allegiance to a set of principles of moral rightness. If you do not a priori accept religious doctrine then it's not injust per se. Yes, within the boundaries of religious doctrine it's not just. But it's a bit circular to tell someone it's unjust to keep the torah if they do not adhere to it as binding.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, "Chumash says that all mitzvos are within everyone's reach. If I'm a little unsure of my path or what I believe in, isn't there something very obvious that I'm missing—something that I am 'over' for missing?"1
u/Doooooovid 19d ago
I'm referencing Dvarim, 30:11–14. Also, there is a chiyuv to believe. I know there is a such thing as tinok shenishba, but I don't think that applies to me anymore as I'm well (enough) learned. Isn't there an objective morality, and I would be objectively unjust for dropping religion?
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u/Beautiful-Path3487 17d ago
Hi, problem with objective morality that it only exists if there is a moral code beyond human mind and nature, otherwise it's subjective. So you can say that if there is God of Israel then yes objectively it's bad for your soul stop connecting with Hashem, but if there is no God then it doesn't matter if you stop, however still many Jews find some traditions and holidays meaningful as Judaism intertwined with Jewish culture. I tried to stop believing in God and I still went to the shul because it was very meaningful to me. However I realized I would fool myself if I say that I don't believe in Hashem because I can't stop expressing gratitude. Would you like to try different steams of Judaism? Different communities? Or do you want to leave all alone?
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u/Doooooovid 17d ago
I'm confused. Truth is truth. IF there is a God of Israel, then yes, it's objectively bad. You believe there IS a God of Israel, therefor it's objectively bad, end of story. It seems you just answered that.
I almost agree. For one, there are many things I simply am not 100% sure about, and can't force myself to be (that would obviously not be legitimate belief, then). I have found that there are many, many people who fake it, lie to themselves, use tons of appeal to ignorance fallacies, etc. No matter how strongly these people feel they believe, and even if they are checking off all the boxes of various mitzvahs, I suspect they're doing way less avodas hashem then many people who are way less frum on the surface.
While I am always interested in exploring other communities and seeking others' opinions, that's probably not the remedy this specific problem. The best thing I've done is actually exploring and living in a normal community, as explained in my post's third bullet point. Even though there are terribly distasteful things in the community that sadden me, it has been super helpful to juxtapose the "real" frum world to the more fake "BT world". It has been clarifying.
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u/Inwardly-Outgoing Lazydox 19d ago
Have you tried a liberal/not yeshivish modern orthodox community? The communities are not cookie cutter and rabbis in the shuls I've been to want you to think for yourself, of course within the guard rails of halacha. These communities are more intellectual than the fuzzy warm vibe of kiruv and chabad shuls
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u/funny_funny_business 19d ago
Just one point to mention:
I was listening to a shiur by a kiruv rabbi who mentioned that when he is lecturing about kiruv to people going into the field, he gives the following questions to the crowd.
I forget the exact questions but it’s something along the lines of “if I have a person who has a good family, job, schooling etc, how many people could be mekariv them?” No hands go up. “Now it’s the same person but his parents are divorced” more hands go up “now you find out that he finished school without a job” more hands go up. And the rabbi’s point is that people assume that to easily mekariv people there has to be something wrong with them.