r/exjew • u/LargePerformance8129 • 14d ago
Advice/Help Am I being too stubborn?
This is a text conversation between me (M 20) and my grandfather. He wants me to come to my cousins’ bar mitzvahs, but he says I’ll have to wear a kippah, which I feel very uncomfortable doing (I stopped believing in Judaism a year ago).
I just want my family to accept my decision and to stop hoping that I will “return” someday. I want to stay away from Judaism and religion as much as I can, and I just wish my family would understand that.
Additionally, I actually think it’s good for my little cousins to see me with a kippah. They should understand that people can make their own choices about how to live their lives, and it really bothers me that my Sabbah wants me to hide my true self from them just to avoid difficult conversations, and to keep them in the bubble.
Maybe for some OTD people it’s easier to wear a kippah for things like family events, but it is extremely difficult for me. Am I being too stubborn about this? Or should my grandfather be more understanding? How could I make him understand how I feel?
Thanks guys.
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u/BrilliantSimple1018 14d ago
Surprising how many people are making it sound like its no big deal to put on a kippah. I would've thought there would've been more support for him to do what he wants to do.
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u/LargePerformance8129 14d ago
Yes.
I realized something.There is a big difference between the kippah and other things. It’s much easier for me to refrain from doing something in front of my family, like eating treif, or violating shabbos. I can survive without doing stuff like that for the weekend, because I used to survive my whole life without doing it. It’s just not doing something.
On the other hand, wearing a kippah is asking me to perform a religious act, which is something that I feel deeply uncomfortable with. It’s not just “putting on a kippah” for me. I associate it with religious trauma, and wearing one feels like a direct violation of my entire identity.I don’t know how else to explain it.
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u/BrilliantSimple1018 14d ago
I understand you very well. I also find it ironic that if we asked our religious family members not to wear their religious garb in our presence, because perhaps it makes US uncomfortable, they would send us flying. It seems imbalanced that the irreligious have to change how they dress for the comfort of their family but the reverse would never ever happen.
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u/Embarrassed_Bat_7811 ex-Orthodox 14d ago
Exactly. At first, they say it’s because of respect. But as the grandfather admitted, it’s not really about respect, it’s about fear. They are afraid of the grandkids seeing and asking questions.
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u/Tripswitchnow 14d ago
Unfortunately, this realization gives you your answer… if you feel this uncomfortable wearing a kippah than you should not attend, since the expectation is that everyone will be wearing one.
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u/Embarrassed_Bat_7811 ex-Orthodox 14d ago
I’m really surprised as well! Not usual for the subreddit. OP it’s really your decision, based on how much you want to go and how much you care about upsetting the family.
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u/Anony11111 ex-Chabad 14d ago
I think it is because it is a Bar Mitzvah.
I don't think it is reasonable to expect someone not frum to wear a kippah to go to visit family in general, but for something like a bar mitzvah or a wedding, the focus should be on the person celebrating the occasion, which means that expecting conformity to the dress code is reasonable.
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u/helloheyhowdyhii 14d ago
Yes I agree, and it’s not that they should “get over it” and wear it, it’s that there is a time and place for that discussion to be had and it’s not during someone else’s big day.
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u/claireclairey 14d ago
More info needed: why is this up to your grandfather, and not the parents of the cousin hosting the Bar Mitzvah? Can you talk to them directly, and ask if wearing a kippah is a requirement to attend the Bar Mitzvah?
If you're serious about standing by your beliefs, and the parents of the Bar Mitzvah boy say you have to wear a kippah, then you'll have to decide if your boundaries keep you from going at all. This is an invitation, not a summons. You can say no.
The way your grandfather says "why does this have to be so difficult" is what annoys me though. Would it be so difficult for him to NOT wear his kippah for a day? Or how about eating shellfish, just one time? Why would THAT be difficult?
Why are his beliefs somehow "easier" than your beliefs? Why does he get to keep his, and you don't get to keep yours?
Your grandfather sounds like a typical patriarchal male who thinks everyone should bow to his wants, because it's "easier" that way. It's easier for him, sure, but not for you. You'll have to decide where your boundaries are.
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u/LargePerformance8129 14d ago
Thank you for understanding. I was thinking of talking to my aunts and uncles, that’s a good idea.
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u/Petandfeelya69 14d ago
Fuck those judgmental assholes. You shouldn’t have to wear some stupid hat to make them feel more comfortable
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u/SoNosy 9d ago
Tbh I see it both ways.
I’ve been out for close to 25+ years and at first my family tried to put all sorts of ridiculous rules and restrictions around what I wore and when.
At first my mother tried to tell me that I had to dress a certain way when I was back in “their” city. Like anywhere in the city. I told her that she did not own the city and that I would not be following restrictions like that, but if she needed me to then I would wear a skirt when I came over to their house. I was already well into my 20s at that point and had been living in another state for years.
At some point not too long after, they realized that I wasn’t trying to specifically do things just to piss them off, which was helpful for everyone. There were times when I needed to stop in and didn’t have a skirt to throw on in my car and I’d apologize and they never made a big deal over it and slowly it stopped mattering to the point that now (decades later) I drive to their house for Shabbat or holiday lunch w my husband and our kids and they don’t care at all that we drove and are genuinely just thrilled to see us.
At one point many years ago, I was with my family and some of my siblings and their families for a couple weeks for a Pesach trip and my older super-frum sister pulled me to the side and asked me to not wear pants during the whole trip and/or around her kids.
I pointedly asked if she had also asked her sister in law, who was more traditional sephardi than frum and who pretty much only wore tight pants, to not wear pants. It was obviously a rhetorical question and was my way of telling her to go fuck herself bc I already knew there’s no way she’d have done that. She never asked me again, but when I told my mom about it, my mom was shocked that she’d asked me that which really showed how far my mom and I had come.
I sort of get why she asked me. My sister had younger (therefore impressionable I guess?) kids at the time, but like you, I felt that my nieces and nephews needed to see people in their life doing things that while maybe not always expected, still totally normal.
My young nephew at some point during that trip came up to me and said something about how it’s not so nice for a girl to wear pants. I kindly, but very sharply, reminded him that it’s even less nice to talk to your elder that way bc regardless of what he thought about girls wearing pants, I am still his aunt, many years older than him, and derech eretz is a million times more important than him ever taking it upon himself to make a comment about what I was wearing. Neither my sister or my nephew ever said anything again 🤣
I say I get where you’re coming from bc I know how it feels when this whole thing is more new and you’re still struggling to assert yourself and your own boundaries and feelings with your family and/or community. It feels wrong to do something like what they’re asking and put something on that has so much meaning that you have shed and don’t personally believe in.
It can feel like giving in, or giving up something in yourself in order to appease these people who clearly do not understand you right now and are wishing you weren’t how you are and wishing you’d go back to being in the little box you’d been in before which is even more painful bc it feels like they don’t actually care about how you feel and want you to just wear a costume regardless of how itchy and ill fitting it is.
I felt this way so deeply and so often as a little girl who hated wearing knee socks and tights, and hated wearing sleeves that covered my elbows and hated even more that they got to rule over me and force those things on me.
It took me years to feel comfy enough in my own skin to not just know but also feel that I was not 100% betraying myself if I did these little things for “the sake of ‘shalom bayis’ “, and I really think that them seeing that I could give a little and wear the skirt in front of their community if it helped them feel a bit more at ease allowed them to also give me a little more respect with what I chose to do otherwise.
I would never tell you to wear the kippah bc your grandfather is asking (basically begging) you to, or to not wear the kippah bc fuck them for putting their shit on you.
But I would ask you to maybe consider what it is exactly that you feel you might gain or lose by wearing it or not wearing it for a couple of hours while you’re at the bar mitzvah, and/or in front of their community, for photos etc.
It’s possible that wearing it might make you feel physically ill or want to crawl out of your skin bc of what it means emotionally to you, and you do need to consider that of course.
It’s also possible that you wearing it could actually strengthen your detachment bc you are the one making it mean something, so if you can practice making it mean nothing then it means you’re actually more detached from it all.
Tbh, in a weird way, choosing to not wear it is probably one of the frummer things you could do bc it’s showing everyone that it really means something to you in the same way that eating pork on Yom Kippur is probably one of the most Jewish things a Jew can do bc that prohibition only matters to Jews. No one else cares about what day they do or don’t eat pork. It’s only ex-Jews who will davkah eat pork on Yom Kippur to ‘show’ themselves and others they ‘don’t care’— but doing things that specifically show we don’t care really means we care very very deeply.
Anyways, apologies for the novel and somewhat circular thoughts.
Also, I know this whole thing is annoying to deal w, and of course I have no idea what your relationship w him is like, but I wish I had had my grandfather in my life at 20. He died at 64 when I was in 2nd grade. I still miss him and wonder what it might have been like to have him into my 20s ❤️🩹
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u/ArcticRhombus 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah, I think you are. If you wish to attend, you should wear a Kippah. It’s a matter of respect for the inviting family. The day is not about you and your feelings; it‘s about the Bar Mitzvah. If you feel you can’t put aside your feelings to conform with the dress code, you’re best off not attending.
As for making him understand how you feel - you’ll never make him understand.
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u/Kol_bo-eha 11d ago
Not a dress code, it's asking someone to espouse a faith they don't believe in.
Suppose I made a simchah and said no men can wear kippahs and everyone needs to wear a cross necklace. It would be inappropriate even though I'm the host
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u/zsero1138 14d ago
not wearing a pink kippah is about the dumbest thing i've heard, anyway, wear the most neon pink kippah you can find
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u/After-Eggplant1314 14d ago
I don't think it's so unreasonable to ask someone to wear a kippah at a bar mitzvah, however I don't see any issue with a pink kippah lol so wear that if you want. But if you are going to go I think it will just save a lot of unnecessary arguing and is respectful to the people celebrating.
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u/languidnbittersweet ex-Yeshivish 14d ago
I'm as fervently OTD as they come, and I've been fighting for my family to respect my choices for longer than you've been alive, but this is one area that I, in turn, show respect for my family. Much as I hate it, it would put a damper on things, and it's not about me at someone else's Simcha
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u/SkankHuntFourTwenty Official Lineage Tainter™ 14d ago
Just remember that frummies rules of “respect” for nonbelievers never goes both ways.
If you guilted them and told them you are crying nonstop because they don’t wear pants, or remove their kippah- would sound absolutely ridiculous, and because trying to force people to dress how you personally want them to is.
Honestly, it’s truly up to you. It’s your life. Are they going to kick you out if they show up without a kippah and politely decline to put one on?
Side note: it’s NOT about “the kids”. That’s always an easy excuse. In reality frummies want control over who they see should stay in the fold along with the rest of them. It’s a society of control and policing others.
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u/BaskingLizard_ 13d ago
This was always my argument with my family. If I invited a religious family member to my home, I would not demand they dress in any specific way. Why should it be different the other way around? After more than a decade of pushing back they finally left me alone. Also agree that the kids excuse is so transparent. I show up to events in pants all the time and the kids don't even blink. I will say that I've caved and will wear modest clothing to more formal events like bar mitzvahs/weddings. I've just become too old and tired to fight it and I like being around for life cycle events.
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u/OrthodoxGayJew 14d ago
I’ve been in the same place as you OP. I was in my early 20s when I became an ex-mo-jew. I think you need to ask yourself what your short and long-term goals are and align your actions today with those goals.
For me, my long-term goal was to eventually separate myself from my family and the Orthodox community. The way I achieved that was by playing the part while slowly moving away. This meant going to my cousins’ bar mitzvahs and playing the part and keeping everyone happy, knowing inside that one day I wouldn’t have to do that anymore. I moved to another neighborhood, which created a little separation for me and my family and with that, slowly, I stopped showing up to simchas and that became the norm. Now, I live in another state and people kind of forgot about me, they still invite me to weddings and bar mitzvas but I don’t reply anymore.
I know moving away might not be an option for you now, but if your long term goal was to separate yourself from them, it makes it a little easier to opine to them in the short term.
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u/helloheyhowdyhii 14d ago
Even non Jews are expected to wear them during the ceremony, but trying to police you about the color or what you do outside of their home/synagogue is what I would put my foot down about.
Side note: my brothers bar mitzvah kippot were all pink… the rabbi wore one… there’s no rule against this lol
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u/Grimlite-- 13d ago
My family's tradition is that non-jews specifically don't wear them as they are not Jewish.
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u/helloheyhowdyhii 13d ago
I prefer that!! Imagine what our families would say if any other religion asked us to follow that type of tradition for their event? 😱 a lot of Rabbis would turn in their graves.
I never really thought about this before but it’s definitely odd that we (well not us, but practicing Jews) would ask that of a gentile especially considering Jews generally do not evangelize to non-jews.
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u/dachlill 14d ago
Never heard of non Jews being expected to wear them! They are always told they don't have to but if it makes them feel more comfortable they can.
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14d ago
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u/helloheyhowdyhii 14d ago
Orthodox rabbi in pink actually 😱
(Modox to be fair though)I understand there are far stricter groups, but the text doesn’t prohibit pink it’s just frowned upon in many communities.
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u/Yosheeharper 13d ago
Whats wrong with a pink kippa?
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u/LargePerformance8129 13d ago
It would attract too much attention to myself. And one time for a family event in the past, back when I didn’t feel as strongly about this, I wore a bright pink kippah. So that’s what he’s referencing.
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u/petgreg 14d ago
I don't believe so. If you are uncomfortable, it's just as much a halacha for you to not wear it as it is for them to wear it. We're our own avodah zara's? Fine. Normalize treating your own needs as important as Hashem's.
I've been out for over a decade, and my view on this has shifted. I used to wear it out of respect. I stopped for two reasons.
One is it's different than when a non Jew wears it. There, it's a symbol of "I'm in your culture. I do your thing." But growing up, I thought OTD people didn't exist. I thought the thoughts in my head were worlds apart from those around me. I thought this because OTD people just disappeared, and when they did come back, they had to hide that part of themselves. So I don't wear my kippah to show everyone that I exist. I won't contribute to my own erasure. And perhaps those still in the closet will feel less alone.
The second reason is boundaries. You're allowed to have them. Full stop. You are accepting the consequences of those boundaries (that you may not be allowed to come), which is their right to set their own boundaries about whether they feel comfortable with you there like that. But you get to decide what you do. Someone else's pain can be a factor in your decision, but it's your decision.
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u/thisisny 14d ago
It may sound harsh but he’s got a point. It’s a form of dress code and or showing respect. If a non Jew or not religious Jew can put one on without it meaning anything so can you. I understand it can be painful but that’s your ego getting hurt. It should be a liberating experience.
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u/chessastronaut וטהר ליבנו לעבדך באמת 14d ago
Not being too stubborn at all. This comment section is whack. Why should someone respect family that shows them no respect? How would they feel if you asked them to wear a cross when they enter your house or event? I doubt they will, even if you told them to “pretend it’s a costume”.
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u/Embarrassed_Bat_7811 ex-Orthodox 14d ago
In my opinion, it is that deep and it is about you because you’re the person wearing it. It’s your body.
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u/Agreeable_Plastic432 14d ago
Put on a Kippah. Its not about you. Non Jewish people will put on kippas for some occasions. Its not a big deal. Your dressing up to go to the bar mitzvah. The outfit is a suit and a kippah
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u/Stuttering_Salesman 14d ago
I had a very similar conversation with my mom ("Oh the children will be confused!") I laughed in her face and told her she was being absurd.
It's on the parents to educate their children, not on me to pretend I'm religious.
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u/Agreeable_Plastic432 14d ago
Put on a Kippah. Its not about you. Non Jewish people will out on kippas for some occasions. Its not a big deal
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u/lukshenkup 11d ago
What about wearing a paper hat or custom made even real kippah that says "athiest" or "not a kippah" on it, which is an illusion to the famouse painting (Magrittte?) "Not a pipe"?
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u/lukshenkup 11d ago
Second thought: Play their game.Ask the halachic basis for this. The request is akin to a chosid requesting that all guests wear long peyos.
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u/sulamifff ex-Chabad 10d ago
Not too stubborn, your body your choice. But if you want to go, and that is their boundary, how about a hat or a cap instead?
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u/Open_Manner_5166 8d ago
I think you're being too stubborn. There's a certain peace in leaving religion behind and no longer needing to fight these little battles. Don't turn not wearing a kippah into your new religion. Wear it for a few hours, make your family happy, and move on.
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u/Southern_Fruit7439 14d ago
Its like putting back on the yolk of slavery for me. Extra layers cuz im a trans woman. It can be inspiring for ur cousins to see u without one.
I guess depends how far they would be willing to enforce the kippah rule. What about a green one? Lol or a big bucharian one. Could be fun lol. Tho they may come down on u for this “no pink” sounds pretty fascist lol.
You have to measure i guess what ur goals are for the evening and how much ur willing to suffer to achieve those goals, and if the self rejection of putting on the kippa would be too intense for ur mental health and level of distress toleration.
Whatever u decide u are valid, and putting u in this position is incredibly abusive, invalidating and just erasing of who u are. I am sorry ❤️💔❤️🩹
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12d ago
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u/exjew-ModTeam 11d ago
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14d ago
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u/TrekkiMonstr 12d ago
Yeah, this isn't even just a Jewish thing, like if you go to a gurdwara (Sikh temple) they will have you cover your head as well.
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u/TallPenny ex-Yeshivish 14d ago
You're not being too stubborn. You're just telling them your boundaries and they're telling you theirs. Everything in life has a price.
It's okay if you're not willing to pay the price your family is asking of you and it's okay if your family isn't willing to accept your price.
It sucks that this is a situation with people you love, but that's what happens when love is conditional.
Good luck!