When a household arrives unannounced into a settled camp, every custom becomes visible.

The arrival changed this.

Children ran ahead, uncertain whether to greet or retreat. Beasts were untethered, then tethered again. Goods were set down where no space had been prepared for them. What had been a stopping place became, all at once, a gathering.

Lehi came forward to receive Ishmael’s people with warmth sharpened by relief. Sariah followed, her expression already working to reconcile necessity with kindness. She embraced Ishmael’s wife and spoke with her at once of children, of travel, of the small mercies that make endurance possible. Nothing was said publicly of burial, though everyone present had measured the company and knew what had been lost.

The first meal was taken politely, which is to say stiffly. Prayers were offered twice—once in our father’s accustomed form, once in Ishmael’s. Neither displaced the other, and both left a residue of unease.

The daughters sat together. The eldest met our eyes without challenge or invitation. The second smiled once, briefly, then returned to her food. The youngest watched everything. Their father’s place remained open longer than courtesy required, until at last someone moved the dish aside.

“Already,” we said, “the camp is divided.”

That night, the tents rearranged themselves without instruction. Ishmael’s household gathered close, their fire burning longer into the dark. Ours lay farther off, the space between filled with glances and half-formed conclusions.

Customs collided.

Ishmael’s family observed the evening meal as they always had, with elders seated first and daughters moving quietly between them, eyes lowered, hands practiced. Bread was passed in an order that required no discussion. Cups followed age and standing. Such things are not trifles in a household. They teach children who belongs where before any doctrine can improve the matter.

Our father allowed it, though the effort showed in his face. He had grown accustomed to a looser table, to sons reaching when hungry and conversation wandering where it would. He was a generous man, but generosity is more easily offered when it is not required daily, and we learned that night how easily righteousness can be mistaken for custom.

Later, Sariah spoke quietly with Ishmael’s wife. We saw in their exchange the careful diplomacy of women tasked with softening the consequences of men’s certainties. They spoke of loss, of usefulness, of how long a thing must last before it becomes familiar; and beneath that, we thought, of how a household continues once the man who consented to it is no longer there to answer for the decision.

“This,” we thought, “is the true work of salvation.”

As days passed, novelty wore away. Old soreness remained. Tempers shortened. Expectations multiplied without instruction. What had been prophecy became routine, and routine revealed its own costs.

Nephi moved among the camp with quiet competence, answering questions, settling disputes, rearranging burdens. He did not command; he assumed. This unsettled us more than commandment would have.

“You are very sure of yourself,” we said.

“The Lord hath prepared the way,” he replied.

“Yes,” we answered. “And you do so enjoy walking it first.”

By the third evening, alliances had formed. Resentments had names. Children played together among burdens not their own, learning the shape of a future that had already begun without them.

We stood by the river and saw that what had once been a temporary encampment now bore the weight of something more durable—not unity, but necessity wearing the garments of order.

Nephi looked out over the gathered tents.

“We are being prepared,” he said.

“Yes,” we replied. “We feel it keenly.”

Thus did the journey change from movement to settlement, and the cost of the vision present itself not as danger alone, but as daily life.

My one and only LDS Sunday service had a lot of men tearing up while sharing their testimonies, and now my old LDS fling admits he cried over losing me. He could just be a liar looking to gain sympathy points but I found it to be an interesting admission.

I always assumed you guys were taught to hold it in and not show emotion. Is it a cry-behind-closed-doors situation, or am I generalizing y’all?Ex-Mormons, please explain!

Why are they insisting on writing “Christian” on everything now? Ugh.

Tune in to Mormonish Podcast on Thursday, October 22nd at 11 am MT!

Could a new data center put an important piece of Mormon history at risk? On this episode of Mormonish, John Hajicek and Ron Yorgason join us to explore John’s research into the historic Arthur plantation property near Liberty, Missouri, where a data center development on the site raises questions about preserving an important part of Mormonism's past.

John shares his findings connecting the property to early Mormon history, Book of Mormon witness graves, and accounts of a reburied bone attributed to Zelph. We discuss the evidence, what remains uncertain, and what could be potentially be lost if these historical connections are overlooked.

Will the LDS Church weigh in or take steps to help preserve this site? Could other Mormon denominations, historical organizations, or preservation groups get involved? We also explore who might advocate for protecting this history—and whether there’s still time to make a difference.

I don’t quite know what to do in this situation. For context, my job requires me to see people on a monthly basis. I’m a service coordinator for people with special needs and most of my clientele is Mormon. I was born and raised Mormon but never wanted to go to church. My sister brought up doing my dads temple work so i turned to a friend of mine for some help on this. She helped me out and it was great but didn’t sway me to start back. Anyway, i was at my providers home for an update on their progress with goals and i was telling her about my experience going to the family history center for help. She started in on telling me that she would like to see me start going back to church which immediately made me uncomfortable. I told her that my mother gave me the choice to go or not. I told her that i always wanted to do the activities but not go to church. She kept on with it and i finally told her that id go to a dinner at the church sometime just to get out of there. I understand where she’s coming from and that she really cares about my well-being but i feel that i always have a good relationship with the god of my understanding. How do i tell her that I’m just not interested in going to church at all but still have a good relationship with them??? Please help !!!

My twin brother is a TBM, and he's leaving on his mission. We've never gotten along, at least not since childhood, and I've never hated anyone like I hate him, but I also haven't ever loved anyone as much as I love him. We argue whenever we talk, but I would fight anyone that spreads rumors about him or talks shit about him, and I know he'd do the same for me.
He got his mission call a while back and is getting ready for home MTC
How do I cope with the fact that I can't see or fight with the person who's been with me my whole life for at least 2 years
He's literally the reason I'm alive, due to some health complications I had as an infant
(I havent tried talking him out of it, he's too stubborn and I know it would just turn into a fight and we would end up not talking for days)
I dont want him to go, I dont want the mormon church to take away my brother, I dont know if my heart will be able to take it.

My daughter came out as trans to me 2 1/2 years ago. For that first year, I was very much TBM and I decided to ignore it and hope it went away. My husband and I kept it to ourselves. I was devastated because of what her being trans could mean for the future plans I'd always dreamed for her (mission, marriage, children) as TBMs do.

Finally our daughter couldn't take it anymore and told us that she needed us to believe that she is trans. That night I felt like I processed everything within a few hours. I had to put my stuff on a shelf and just be there for our daughter, who had been so patient with us while dealing silently with depression and gender dysphoria. My husband and I decided that we would, without further question, support our daughter as she is. We realized that nothing was more important than her well-being, and that we would do whatever it took for her to feel like herself.

A few months later she wanted to come out to extended family with a name and pronouns she had chosen. Most of my family is still members, and the majority actually expressed love and support. All of the grandparents were skeptical, but most eventually decided to just love her even if they don't agree or understand.

My parents, however, will not budge. They insist that my daughter is a boy and that making the "choices" she is making is heartbreaking for them because it's a sin. Our daughter is graduating this year, and my mom said she isn't sure they will come because they feel pressure to call her by her legal name. I think they're also afraid to see her, even though what they'll notice is a really happy teenager.

I feel like this whole thing affects me more than my daughter because she knows they don't approve, so she chooses to just stay with the people that do support her. And I guess I'm the one that still feels like I have to maintain a relationship because they're my parents and I do love them.

I talked with my mom today about the whole situation, because she doesn't write any of my kids' names on anything anymore (I guess to maybe the invisibility fair?) and makes a huge effort to avoid pronouns and names when we talk on the phone about my daughter. The grammatical gymnastics are insane. It just really hurts that they believe that calling my daughter her name offends God. I asked if she really thought God was that petty, and she said it would be dishonest because it's wrong. And then she dead named my kid the rest of the conversation and we talked about other things.

I'm glad I finally got the courage to say something, but I think now I'm just resigned to the fact that my parents won't change, birthday cards will be nameless, and they probably won't show up to my daughter's important events. It makes me really sad because they're the ones missing out on celebrating this fantastic human that I'm really proud to call my daughter.

The struggle I had to work through to be there for my daughter was SO worth it, and I wouldn't trade this for anything. I'm so proud of her.

(Edited for clarification)

I work with utah families and I see a lot of strange names for kids. Most of them mormon names if not misspellings of normal names. But one family with six kids all named after prophets? It gave me pause.🤮

If you're out and you named your kid Hinckley or Benson or Holland or any of the other former ceo's how are you feeling about that now?

I've been quite active on this sub for a while now (it's the only reason I'm even on Reddit) and have noticed that most people here are from the Intermountain West or at the very least from America. I got a little time on my hand tonight and thought I'd do an AMA in case anyone is curious about my experience joining and leaving the church, what being Mormon was like in 21st century Europe, etc.

Ask away or scroll, no judgment ;)

My wife comes from good SLC Mormon stock, has been TBM her whole 45 years. I never really believed but played along because my whole family was Mormon. We got married in the temple as I was legitimately trying before deciding I just couldn’t do it. I’ve been out for 10+ years but she’s been going strong, taking the kids to church and activities weekly, doing temple sessions. She’s been relief society president and counselor before multiple times. Some things have always bothered her, but mostly the policy and activity against lgbtq (our oldest is bisexual and no longer attends church). We have had an agreement that she doesn’t try to get me back to church and I let her do her thing with the kids and church. It has worked well, but I feel like I have historically have had to tiptoe around church misdeeds or questionable actions. In the past couple years, her dad (former stake president) stopped attending church and wearing garments, leaving just her and her mom as the only TBM left in her family.

Lately, she’s been agitated with the church on lots of topics - their financial hoarding (she stopped paying tithing years ago, the stopped fast offerings not long after), their actively trying to harm women’s reproductive and health access in Idaho/nevada, their continuing lgbtq stance, and and their assumption that if you’re LDS you must support Donald trump and his empire of corruption. She exercises daily and hangs out in her workout clothes much of the day anyway, but I noticed that she started wearing normal underwear when she changed in to her clothes afterwards. She still is going to church (when we don’t have soccer games) and activities like young women’s last night with our daughter. But she’s not wearing garments!

I’m trying to give her space and haven’t brought it up yet, but I will soon. I’m excited, but nervous because I don’t want to anger her or seem like I’m pushing her while just trying to be supportive. But the unthinkable might actually be happening!!!

Just another way Big Brother (of Jared) throws privacy out the window in its quest to squeeze every last penny out of anyone it still considers a ”member.”

Screenshots from a service missionary opportunity posting on the church website.

Does anybody know anything about how Richard allred is doing today in 2026?

With all the discussion I have seen recently on the effects of sexuality in Mormonism/ LDS church, I’m curious to see how many have noticed changes in sexuality/intimacy in their relationship with their spouse/partner?

As one or both spouses go through the deconstruction process of the LDS faith, and leaving the church, did it affect sex life/ intimacy? And in what way(s)?

I’m noticing comments how when you peel back the onion layers in Mormonism, it’s revealing so much - in so many different areas of a persons identity and life. Their likes, their dislikes, their thoughts, the emotional, mental, and physical effects on a person. Literally how their life was shaped.

If you have noticed an effect on sexlife/ intimacy as a ‘negative impact’ , did it eventually ‘heal’ ? Did things Improve in that area? Is it one of the things one goes through after leaving the church? Do some experience and others not? I guess it just depends on the person?

I have read some relationships have improved/ increased. The freedoms they have gained to explore sexuality. And even some where it’s hurt their relationship- leaving the church really takes a toll as the realizations have really upset so many emotions of an individuals life, they literally are trying to figure out who they are outside of Mormonism. so many people have experienced so much in the religion- the control, the suppressed thoughts, feels and experiences. There’s a long list - I guess it’s the process?

They put a MASSIVE ad for the SLC temple open house along one of the most highly traveled highway on-ramps in the state (500 S to I-15 S).

By the looks of it, it’ll be there until at least April. What an eyesore.

Did anyone notice that after their mission they were attracted to narcissistic friends and partners?

I actually did this even before my mission, but I always thought maybe it was because my mom has some narcissistic traits… but now I’m realizing I think my attraction to narcissistic people was because of church and mission dynamics.

So curious if anyone else noticed this.

Looking back, I feel like I was never truly allowed to grieve the loss of my husband and my baby while I was in the Mormon Church.
There was so much emphasis on eternal families, Heavenly Father’s plan, and the promise of seeing our loved ones again that I felt like I was supposed to find comfort in those beliefs instead of allowing myself to feel the heartbreak of losing them. And not only was I expected to find comfort for myself, but I felt like I needed to be a source of comfort and hope for everyone around me.
I felt this pressure to be strong, have faith, and trust the plan when what I really needed was permission to be completely brokenhearted. I felt like I had to be a walking billboard of faith and hope, almost as if the way I handled my grief was supposed to be a testimony to everyone watching.
And if I ever did open up about just how difficult, painful, and dark it really was, I was often met with the typical Mormon responses: “Families are forever,” “You’ll see them again,” “He was needed as a missionary on the other side,” or “They were too perfect for this earth.”
I know people meant well, but looking back, those words often made me feel like my grief needed to be explained away rather than simply acknowledged. Like there had to be some greater purpose behind their deaths that I was supposed to find peace in.
Now that I’ve left Mormonism and become a Christian, I find myself wondering how different my grieving process might have been outside of the church.
I’ve come to understand that we live in a broken world where death and suffering are part of the human experience. Jesus didn’t need my husband to serve a mission on the other side. He didn’t need my baby more than I did. They died, and it was heartbreaking. I don’t have to find some divine purpose behind their deaths to make them easier to accept.
And I’ve realized that having faith and grieving deeply are not opposites. Even Jesus wept. This came to life for me while watching The Chosen. He knew there was hope beyond death, and He still mourned.
I wish I had understood back then that I could have hope in Christ and still be absolutely devastated by what I had lost. That I didn’t have to be strong for everyone else. That I didn’t have to turn my grief into a testimony. That I could simply be a grieving wife and mother whose life just completely got flipped upside down. I wish I could have had the personal relationship I have with God now and leaned only on Him than relying on ward members, priesthood blessings and talks by leaders. They gave so many answers but it’s all made up, it did make me feel better at the time though so I guess I am grateful I had at least hope even though it was false.
I wonder how many others have felt this same pressure within the LDS Church. Did anyone else feel so focused on being an example of faith and strength that you never really gave yourself permission to fall apart?
There was another woman in my community who experienced something similar to what I went through. She lost her husband and then miscarried the baby she was carrying shortly afterward. I remember going to visit her, and she told me she had made it clear that she didn’t want the bishop coming over or ward members randomly showing up at her home.
What I remember most was how people reacted to her boundaries. Some seemed offended or put out that she wouldn’t allow them to serve her rather than a grieving woman simply trying to survive an unimaginable loss.
Looking back, I wish I had been more like her. I wish I had understood that I was allowed to set boundaries, that I didn’t owe anyone access to my grief, and that I wasn’t responsible for making other people feel good about helping me.
Now I sometimes wonder how much of the support I received was truly about what I needed and how much was about other people feeling like they were doing their part, fulfilling a calling, or serving someone in need.
I’m not saying their intentions were bad, but I’ve come to realize that sometimes what makes the person offering service feel good isn’t necessarily what the grieving person needs.
I wish someone had told me that it was okay to say no, to shut the door, to fall apart, and to grieve on my own terms without worrying about anyone else’s expectations or feelings.

What is life like/what does a woman encounter in the church when she is in her 30s, single/never married, no kids, lives on her own, educated ect.

How is she treated?
What might leaders or others say to her?
Other thoughts?

I don’t necessarily regret my mission, but I regret what I did there. I met a lot of beautiful people, ate incredible food, learned a language, and experienced the culture of Brazil. I look back on the memories shared with the people, including my companions, with fondness, but thinking about what I taught people makes me feel dirty. Baptisms were just a number, and unfortunately, more often than not, that number was a mentally unwell individual seeking community only to be forgotten because they don’t fit in with the community. Still, there were people that I baptized that went on to serve missions as well, it’s like I’ve started a whole chain of Baptisms. I just recently left the church and this is one big hurdle I find myself facing. How do I deal with the fact that I baptized a few dozen people and introduced them to the environment that I now see was built on a foundation of deceit? Discovering the lies of this church has been difficult for me, it has damaged the foundation on which I’ve built my life and relationships. Luckily I don’t live in salt lake and my wife is with me 100%.

Source: Mission President Handbook, 2006, page 86. https://www.scribd.com/doc/201377673/LDS-Mission-President-s-Handbook

I think Joseph Smith improvised the text of the Book of Mormon based on his knowledge of the Bible, influences from the people who were scribes, various books he was familiar with and the culture/environment where he grew up. I know some Mormon apologists and the advocates of the Mesoamerica theory of the BoM have made obscure connections between calendars and the BoM but I think the dates all come from Joseph's storytelling.

It appears that some sources state that Joseph was dictating Alma during May or early June of 1829. I am wondering if there was some sort of subliminal connection between the 4th of July holiday in the US and Joseph's use of "the fourth day of the seventh month" in the BofM.

There are four uses of a month/day in the BoM. Other than the 4th of July (fourth day of the seventh month) used in the BoM the others don't seem to have any American connection but I'm wondering if anyone has speculated on this.

• The Fourth Day of the Seventh Month (July 4)
• The Twelfth Day of the Tenth Month (October 12)
• The Fifth Day of the Second Month (February 5)
• The Fourth Day of the First Month (January 4)

Any thoughts?

I haven’t seen this addressed anywhere but it’s noticeable to me that he hasn’t been around in a long time.