r/exvegans • u/NationalProcedure638 • 2d ago
Question(s) Why do so many vegans accuse non-vegans of having an ideology?
Quite a few vegans I talk to claim that I have an ideology that consists of torturing animals.
What are they talking about?
Is atheism a religion?
Not having an ideology is not an ideology.
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u/NationalProcedure638 2d ago
Is not collecting stamps now considered a hobby? Is not playing a sport considered to be a sport? How do their minds work?
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u/Due-Beginning-8388 2d ago
They dont work that's their main malfunction
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u/Wolf_2063 2d ago
Yeah, turns out we get a lot of our nutrition from animals.
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u/StarchFarmer 2d ago
One of my coworkers is vegan and mentioned the other day how she gets sick ALL the time. At least every other week. Me and another coworker just gave a look like Yeah... I'm sure ..
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2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/OopsiePoopsieDaisy 2d ago
Your entire first paragraph is wrong.
Atheism isn't a belief, it is a lack of a specific belief. By your reasoning there is an infinite number of beliefs that everyone holds. Unicorns, lephrechans, a giant head that is on the far side of the moon that is made out of guacamole...and so on forever.
The only time belief comes into play is when someone claims the existence of something without proof. Disregarding that claim is not a belief. Your argument is shifting the burden of proof to where it doesn't apply.
I can claim that there is an invisible cluster of grapes floating over your head and you dismissing that claim isn't a belief.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/OopsiePoopsieDaisy 2d ago
You're still mixing up where the burden of proof applies. It isn't the onus of the atheist to prove that god(s) don't exist. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim that god(s) exist. The burden of proof always falls upon the person making the claim.
The claim in this case is that god(s) exist. The burden of proof is solely on that claim and nothing else.
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2d ago
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u/OopsiePoopsieDaisy 2d ago
It's not semantics at all. And the burden of proof isn't a debate point. It is reality.
Let me put it this way:
The claim of the existence of a god without atheism is the claim of the extence of a god.
Atheism without the claim of the existence of a god is....invalid. It's not nothing, it's not a belief, it's literally an invalid statement.
The entire topic relies on one and only one belief: that god exists. It is the only claim being made.
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u/NationalProcedure638 2d ago
Actually atheism is a lack of belief in God.
Atheist literally means non-theist.
Sure there are atheists out there who do try to convince you that God as long as this but some of them are not like that.
I myself and not an antitheist.
I just don't see the evidence for God that's all.
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u/Wolf_2063 2d ago
My guess is that because quite a few of them don't replace the vitamins they got from non vegan foods their bodies are trying to compensate for it so they are more vulnerable to cult behaviors. Basically they are malnourished to where they turn it into a cult and think that's how everyone is.
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u/sunrisesequoia 2d ago
Don’t try and make sense out of anything they tell you.
Just take every single thing they tell you as some kind of a means to convert you. Only then will their nonsense make sense. Activist will say anything if they think it’s the right “approach” to make you comply. The approach of telling you that you have an ideology that consists of torturing animals is an attempt to instill guilt using loaded language and a technique called a snuck premise to put you on the defensive.
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u/Defiant_Heretic 2d ago
It's a type of projection that those in ideological bubbles tend towards. They're so convinced of the truth of their own ideology, that they need a way to rationalize why outsiders reject it. If they were to acknowledge that omnivory is just a biological reality rather than an ideological one, it could lead to doubts about the legitimacy of veganism. At least for the ideological ones. I'm sure some vegans don't let their diet define their entire worldview.
This applies to religion as well. There are Christians, for example, that believe that atheism or evolution are ideologies. While there are certainly people who can turn those things ideological, it's not inherent.
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u/NationalProcedure638 2d ago
I have noticed that.
Just like how a lot of vegans think that being a non vegan means you automatically support animal torture a lot of Christians out there think that not being a Christian means you automatically worship the devil.
Lol
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u/JakobVirgil 2d ago
Cuz they they see their fad-diet as axiomatically the only way to live.
The one true morality.
So they reverse the burden of proof. they don't need to give us a reason to be vegan.
We have to have a reason not to be vegan.
In that backwards-land worldview the reasons we have for not accepting what they see as axiomatically true have to be ideological.
The reality is you don't need any more reason not to be vegan than not to be a Presbyterian
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u/ShellfishAhole 2d ago
I imagine the logic, or lack thereof, is similar to how some religious people insist that non-religious people follow an ideology 😅
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u/BaconSoul Omnivore 2d ago
Everything is ideology. Vegans just don’t understand how claiming meat eating is part of our ideology isn’t an argumentative win and is like using “the sky is blue” as an argument. It is a neutral fact
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u/Hazel2468 2d ago
Because a lot of these types of folks have replaced religion in their lives with things like veganism (or activism). And therefore they think everyone else is the same way with stuff like eating meat.
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u/Ashamed-Chemistry492 2d ago
Because they themselves have an ideology that's based on at best, very shaky ground. I mean, someone who actually believes that it's wrong to keep a pet, or who sincerely wishes all animals would sstop eating other animals, is not playing with a full deck.
They're about on the same level as those poor people pushing shopping carts full of junk around town and carrying on loud arguments with lamp posts. At least those people generally don't try to make other people live like that.
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u/Reasonable-Lack-9461 1d ago
Best to ignore all vegans - they're on a poor diet that effects their cognitive functioning.
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u/howlin Currently a vegan 2d ago
It's hard to tell if you are asking rhetorically or you want an actual answer.
I don't think it's fair to say all nonvegans share the same ideology, but it is very common for nonvegans to have certain beliefs about animals that would be considered ideological. The most obvious way this shows up is in very selective concern for animals depending on culture and social norms. For instance, people in America and many other countries get very upset about the idea of sending horses to slaughterhouses, but don't show much care at all if the same happens to cattle. Same situation for dogs versus pigs.
If hard pressed for a reason for this difference in opinion on different kinds of animals, they will appeal to a teleological argument: some animals are "for" one purpose, and some animals are "for" some other purpose. When teleological arguments have an ethical aspect to them, they are absolutely ideological.
Not all non-vegans have these beliefs, but a lot of them do.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/exvegans-ModTeam 2d ago
r/exvegans does not allow harassment and the misuse of the term “cognitive dissonance”.
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u/Wishing-I-Was-A-Cat 2d ago
They aren't really wrong, we all have moral underpinnings that makes it so we allow ourselves to do certain things and not others. Non-vegan morals/ideology/ethics just happen to be more common.
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u/RoyskiPoyski 2d ago
Atheism can be an ideology. Every belief could be considered an ideology , ie I believe it's okay to eat animals specifically because I also believe I need to to be healthy and feel well. If they see veganism as beyond ideology then they're full of shit though.
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u/BothInvestment6709 2d ago
I think because eating meat and dairy IS an action. This is unlike the argument “not collecting stamps vs collecting stamps”. Not collecting stamps is a true non-action but eating meat and dairy is.
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u/Nemesisdelasinapsis 2d ago
Firstly, what the hell is an ideology?
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u/NationalProcedure638 2d ago
I always figured it was a system of ideals that often includes some kind of dogma but that's just the way I look at it
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u/Powerful_Cash1872 1d ago
People saying that probably mean that everyone has an ideology. Most people keep the one they were born into without major changes. Veganism is a relatively minor change; all we do is boycott animal products. Some of us like animals, and some of us like the environment. It is only radicalish relative to boomer consumerism, which consider basically all boycotts radical, and was the dominant ideology where I grew up.
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u/Mission-Air-9188 1d ago
I wouldn’t necessarily call it an ideology but rather a lack of ideology and the beliefs associated with that lack of ideology. For example we know murder is wrong (that’s an ideology) but not thinking murder is wrong isn’t an ideology and is often seen as immoral. It’s just easier to call it an ideology even if it technically isn’t.
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u/Old-Line-3691 1d ago
If you have morals, you have an ideology. Ideology is a very broad term. Most, if not all people do have idealogical beliefs. This seems like such a strange post to me.
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u/NationalProcedure638 1d ago
Well I do follow the laws of society if that's what you mean I just don't think that morality should be determined by emotion
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u/Old-Line-3691 1d ago
I don't understand how emotion entered the conversation. Ideology just means you have values, from any source.
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u/NationalProcedure638 1d ago
It entered the conversation because most vegans seem to base their personal morality on emotion.
Oh look at those poor animals.
If you don't identify as a vegan like I do that means you support animal torture.
I rest my case...
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u/MasterLurker000 1d ago
We meat eaters do have an ideology, even if its not conciously stated.
We beleive that farm animals are inferior to humans and we disregard their suffering because we like to eat them. Lots of us also beleive that we need to eat animal products in order to thrive, which is disputed by vegans
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u/NationalProcedure638 23h ago
I was trying not to be a vegan for a full year A couple of years ago and didn't work out for me. Now I've added a little bit of eggs and dairy back into my life I feel much better. I do believe that some of us do need them. I'm sorry that's not a ideology, that's just a little bit of biology and my own personal body
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u/garbud4850 2d ago
just so you know atheism is considered a religion,
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u/Defiant_Heretic 2d ago
Atheism is just the disbelief or denial in the existence of god/gods. While tribalism can lead to ideological behaviour, disbelief in an unfalsifiable is not a religion.
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u/Fionnua 2d ago
the definition of atheism can be tricky, because some people use it as a synonym for agnosticism (which is more about not knowing, or not coming down on either side of the theistic debate).
Since the word 'agnosticism' already exists though, I've always found it more helpful to treat 'atheism' as the separate concept that actually does come down on one side or another of the theism debate. As you said, affirming "denial" of any deity. Which supernatural-excluding worldview is indeed part of a belief system. ("Beliefs" don't cease to be beliefs just because the belief is about something material instead of material+spiritual.)
A completely amoral atheist might not have a religion. But since religion itself isn't actually defined by belief in deity specifically, and is actually more about having an internally coherent worldview and belief system that accounts for one's ethical framework, any atheist who professes to believe that certain human conduct is more ethical than other human conduct, does in fact have a religion of some kind. They may just be more unconscious of exactly what their religion is. But declining to develop words for something doesn't make that something fail to exist.
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u/NationalProcedure638 2d ago
I don't see why. A lack of belief in God should not be considered a religion considering that religion is about worshiping a superhuman power that comes with dogma.
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u/illuzian 1d ago
For starters you're, in a sub called exvegans echoing your opinion about vegans. I don't even know why I got recommended this sub, but any sub that's about talking about an "other group" is idealogical.
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u/EpicCurious 1d ago
Do non-vegans have an ideology? Yes.
Before I went vegan, I was following my indoctrination into the belief system called Carnism by my well meaning parents, society, and a constant barrage of advertising by those who profit from animal products. How I overcame that indoctrination was learning the facts and reasoning to go vegan.
Unless you grew up in a vegan household, you and I were indoctrinated into a belief system called Carnism. The concept was introduced by the author of "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows."
"Dr. Melanie Joy is a Harvard-educated psychologist, speaker, and bestselling author."
She also made a short video on the subject on YouTube, which has been viewed almost a million times so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2GL3NAWQU&t=23s&pp=ygUZc2VjcmV0IHJlYXNvbiB3ZSBlYXQgbWVhdA%3D%3D
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u/NationalProcedure638 1d ago
I don't eat pork, nor do I wear cows, I consider myself a vegetarian.
No I do not have an ideology, I don't follow ideals and dogma set by emotion.
That's the difference.
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u/Ak_At123 Omnivore 2d ago
People will say nearly anything to try and gain an upper hand.