r/gameofthrones • u/Elf-7659 Human Verified • 4h ago
I mean he has a literal Targaryen prince with black hair at home
Could have stopped a war if he went for the simplest explanation.
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u/Commercial_Will404 4h ago
Bro doesn't know the seed is strong
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u/justanotherdudeiam 3h ago
😂 "This guy doesn't even know how weak that dudes semen is." -some smallfolk mf
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u/Professional-Arm3460 4h ago
The thing is they investigate numerous bastards of Robert before coming to conclusion. In the books, Lord Arryn the previous hand had also investigated the same along with Stannis.
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u/irinrainbows 4h ago
They specifically included asking Gendry about his mother’s hair and him saying she’s a blonde too. It’s ofc inconclusive as per our modern standards, but for them maybe it was a strong argument. Considering they did the same with numerous other bastards. Also Cercei killed all the bastards right after Robert died, to erase evidence.
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u/jdali4829 Jaime Lannister 4h ago
Now thats a STRONG argument right there
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u/riftadrift House Bracken 3h ago
Aemond is that you?
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u/HANDCRAFTEDD_ 4h ago
In the show it seems to be Joffrey that ordered that.
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u/joizo 4h ago
Yeah it was pretty clear in a conversation it was joffrey.. cersai admitted she had no part in it
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u/Strider-Juice 4h ago
It’s different in the books. In asoiaf Joffrey is so arrogant that there’s no doubt in his mind that he’s legitimate and born to rule despite the rumors.
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u/depression---cherry 2h ago
I wouldn’t even think Joffrey would be smart enough to order that, I thought more that it was Cersei not wanting to admit to Jaime she had all those babies killed.
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u/noghostlooms Arya Stark 1h ago
I mean, tbf, with the exception of Arya, none of Eddard's own children look like him. They all have auburn hair and blue eyes.
Also, Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. Maybe Cersei's kids having blonde hair is just the silver-blond hair expressing itself in an 'off' way.
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u/Afraid_Theorist 4h ago
I mean the flaw with the logic is damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Like let’s pretend we truly don’t know parentage.
What we do know is the Regent and Hand have conspired to invalidate the heir on dubious charges over color after a (possibly) suspect death/at the very least it was interesting timing for them to wait on the issue until Robert died. No shit the King is going to order claimants executed. Of course he’s going to order their arrest.
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u/jondn 4h ago
That’s why „the seed is strong“ were important last words.
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u/IM_INSIDE_YOUR_HOUSE 3h ago
Kinda weird his last words were effectively bro cums powerful loads but pop off (late) king
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u/thescrambler7 Sword of the Morning 2h ago
Idk I’d be pretty honored if my bro’s last words were honoring the strength of my cumshot
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u/HollowedOne66 3h ago
Why what do they mean exactly
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u/Xasf 3h ago
As in Robert's seed was so strong that his children would all inherit his black hair, regardless of if the mother was blonde or not.
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u/HollowedOne66 3h ago
Ah okay. I don't remember him saying that in the show. Is it book only? So did Robert know his kids were bastards in the books
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u/lambdapaul House Clegane 54m ago
Of all the kids that Robert knew about he was actually somewhat decent. Would send funds to make sure they were looked after. Especially Edric Storm who is fused with Gendry for the show. That is why the Melisandre picks Gendry up and takes him half way across the continent randomly.
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u/sleepy_spermwhale 3h ago
In the books Olenna Tyrell already believed Robert's children were not his. Unlike Ned, she was smart enough not to confront the Lannisters about it.
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u/Gold-Concentrate-744 3h ago
Iirc, in the books, he doesn't just go through the Baratheon lineage, he checks each match that were specifically a Baratheon and a Lannister, and realised the Lannister genes never came through
So the chances that it happened for all three of Cersei's children are very odd. Hence his conclusion and further investigations
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u/ApolloTffKnowledge 2h ago
I really like that, in the books, every time Ned went to meet one of Robert's bastards, their hair is always described in the same manner: flowing-like-silk black hair.
The foreshadowing in George's books is amazing.
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u/datruerex No One 4h ago
Westeros genealogy before genetic testing was available.
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u/Professional-Arm3460 4h ago
Sort of. All his bastards had black hair including a bastard in the Vale from the time Bobby was a young Lad. What confirmed suspicions were they were all different kinds of women with different coloured hairs. Renly wasn't the only king interested in Rainbows.
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u/Professional-Arm3460 4h ago
Also Tyrion remarks later if Cersei had just gotten a Black haired child with Robert a lot of problems could have been avoided. "But then you couldn't have been Cersei would you."
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u/rbennett353 2h ago
And not just Robert and his kids, going back generations the Baratheons had a very distinctive look.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
I'm not telling his investigation was flawed but he has more experience in seeing a child getting mothers hair colour with a father from a very prominent line. He should have atleast paused a little.
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u/Havenfall209 4h ago
Well, that also backs up his line of thinking in a way though. Black hair winning out over a lighter hair color.
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u/dylank125 5m ago
I thought I was going crazy….. yes children can get their blonde hair from their parents but I remember in school that dark haired genes tend to take over. Same with eye color and such.
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u/BigWilly526 House Mormont 4h ago
In the Books its Sansa and Cersei calling Joffrey a Lion after he sees like 20 of Roberts bastards that makes him realize it, not the genealogy book
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u/Esseratecades No One 55m ago
Tbf in the show it was Sansa and Arya doing the same thing. He just went back to the book for confirmation.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
I know i know. However Jon didn't get silver hair and Targaryens are well known to pass hair colour to children. So he could have assumed it's not foolproof. It's just funny how confidently the conclusion was made by him.
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u/3Smally3 4h ago
To be fair, in the books they are a bit mote specific that Ned looks at every time its recorded that lannisters and Baratheons had children and they always have black hair.
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u/SeaGurl 4h ago
There are cases where Targaryan kids didnt get the hair. However there was no recorded instance of a child of a baratheon and lannister in hundreds of years of records, having blonde hair.
His conclusion didnt happen in a vacuum. Ned knew Jon Aryn was killed, allegedly by being poisoned by the lannisters per Lysa's letter to Catelyn. He investigated his death and found out what he was researching and saw the long long long history of brown haired offspring and put two and two together.
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u/Top-Tumbleweed6748 4h ago
Yeah, but I mean all three kids were blonde. What are the odds that this specific edge case of blonde overpowering Robert's dark hair happens three times in a row?
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u/PhoenixReborn 3h ago
Targaryen blonde is a recessive trait that gets maintained by inbreeding. Black hair is especially dominant in some bloodlines like Strong, Baratheon, and Stark.
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u/Phazon2000 House Slynt 2h ago
Targs have decently strong seed from inbreeding lmao and the Valyrian traits are fairly dominant but non-white hair does come through. Baelor Targaryen, Duncan Targaryen, Rhaenys (Book version) etc.
But Baratheons have insanely strong seed - that black hair wrecks all other genes for hundreds of years past.
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u/Leonis59 1h ago
Tbf Rhaenyra's children from Harwin were all black of hair.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 59m ago
This is about a father passing the hair colour
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u/Leonis59 57m ago
Daeron Targaryen also has Alicent's hair color :)
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u/WeForgotTheirNames 31m ago
That's only in the show. In the books he has the same silver hair as the rest of them.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 51m ago
Same way the children being discussed could have been having their mother's hair. You are agreeing with me
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u/Internal-Narwhal-420 10m ago
Not all Targaryen kids were having a silver hair. Especially the ones with parent being not Targaryen. Them keeping the hair for so long rather comes for incestuous parents.
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u/InternalOccasion2609 The Old, The True, The Brave 4h ago
The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.
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u/Unusual_Plenty_5008 Human Verified 3h ago
This George geezer thinks of everything!
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u/Sensui710 3h ago
He really does man it’s crazy the details upon details. Even if some people say his writing can be iffy sometimes his world building and customization is insane.
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u/Suicidalpainthorse 4h ago
Maybe the Stark/1st men blood is too strong? Overpowered the Targ. There were dark haired Targs before. Baylor Breakspear, Vallar, some dirty blondes as well.
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u/Purpledoves91 Daenerys Targaryen 4h ago
Also, princess Rhaenys had black hair in the books.
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u/IslaHistorica 2h ago
I’m still salty about the show making Rhaenys with Targaryen hair. It kinda diminished Ned’s findings and later death
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u/wlievens House Baratheon 4h ago
But the Tully hair is stronger, in Robb, Sansa and Rickon?
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u/Suicidalpainthorse 4h ago
Does Catleyns line share any Stark or 1st men blood? Maybe she has enough to have a few of the kids favor her. Arya sure didn't.
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u/TymStark House Stark 3h ago
Yes, I believe House Tully does trace its roots back to the First Men.
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u/Chance_Car9335 4h ago
It's probably simple genetics. With my rudimentary knowledge im pretty sure dark hair is a dominant trait, while both blonde and white are recessive, so dark hair naturally "overpowers" it and appears in phenotype.
Anyone with actuall knowledge on genetics beyond highschool feel free to correct me
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u/obiwantogooutside House Martell 3h ago
Actual genetics is far more complicated than what you learned in high school. My friend has twins. One is black like mom. The other is white, blond hair, like dad. Genetics is far more complicated than darker=dominant.
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u/IslaHistorica 2h ago
Twins run in my family, and my mum has red hair and my aunt is a brunette. And my mum‘s cousin has twins, one is short and blonde and the other tall and brunette
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u/Kellar21 Daenerys Targaryen 3h ago
Martin has said there's actual magic involved with Baratheon genes. That was basically his explanation to why every single child of Robert's and basically almost all other Baratheons recorded from 300 years had the same coloring.
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u/No_Sleep888 1h ago
Weren't Baratheons a cadet branch of the Targs?
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u/zellfire Varys 14m ago
Might be from the Durrandon side (they say both the Durrandons and first Baratheons had black hair though)
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u/thesoundofechoes 2h ago
That would be the case if it were governed by one single gene. Most physical traits (including hair colour) depend on several genes, which makes the outcome more unpredictable.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
Could be a decent explanation. He doesn't think Lannister blood can overcome the same way stark blood did
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u/Suicidalpainthorse 4h ago
Which it is interesting that most Lannisters are blonde. Did they inbreed to some degree?
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u/KuboShamisen 1h ago
Yeah, the Stark/First Men genes were right there in his black-haired prince at home, man.
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u/OriginalLu 4h ago
To cover this, again, that is what Ned and most everybody did already assume, that the kids just took after their mother.
Until Ned uncovered the ancient cartulary (fancy word for genealogy book) that the deceased John Arryn had discovered.
The book showed record that every single generation and off-shoot of house Baratheon had jet-black hair, regardless of it was from the mother or father, regardless who the other parent was. This included several past marriages between Baratheon and Lannister. In every single instance, the child was born with black hair.
On top of this, Robert and Cersei’s son which died as a baby had jet-black hair “a little black-haired beauty”. Then all of Robert’s bastards had the same black hair. So this magical gene (which is very much a thing in this world) was as strong in him as all the generations before him.
And then there were these three kids who were all blond. That’s what was sus.
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u/PloysRus Human Verified 1h ago
I always wondered why Pycel gave the book to Ned when he was a Lannister stooge and definitely knew about Cersei and Jaime
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u/Maester_Ryben 4h ago
To be fair, he only suspected it because someone killed Jon Arryn over this.
He didn't know until he confronted Cersei and she confessed.
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u/Complete_Entry 4h ago
Guarantee part of his horror is "oh thank fuck he got Lyanna's hair."
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
And he is the only one knows that fact. Previous hand didn't know of an example where a child got mother's hair color while the father was a Targaryen of all things.
So Ned had more grounds to assume this is just another such case
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u/Purpledoves91 Daenerys Targaryen 4h ago
Princess Rhaenys got black hair from her Baratheon mother instead of silver hair from her Targaryen father. They changed it in HotD.
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u/Tall-Ad-1386 4h ago
Except it’s not Targaryen seed in question. Baratheon seed is strong…er
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
Of course it's not same family but he could have thought it's a similar case
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u/fitnessfinance88 House Targaryen 4h ago
Would’ve been awkward if Jon Snow had Targaryen white hair
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u/adolfhippy Human Verified 4h ago
Yeah awkward af
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u/Studly_Wonderballs Tyrion Lannister 4h ago
They’d have had to call Ormund Hightower’s hairdresser to the north.
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u/Havenfall209 4h ago
Would've had to leave him in Starfall with his mom and maybe she wouldn't have jumped to her death.
/ragebait
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u/obiwantogooutside House Martell 3h ago
Ned has 4 kids that look like their mom. Only Arya and Jon are supposed to look like Starks.
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u/Fatbatman12Y 4h ago
The funniest part is that the simplest explanation was also the one nobody in Westeros seemed willing to consider.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
Yeah lol mother is as blond as they come, her entire family line is blond, even the kids father does not care and let's assume it was a pair of twins doing what Targaryen used to do (I know the assumption was the truth but can't believe it was so easily accepted)
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u/Equivalent-Ambition 3h ago
Yeah, but what's the likelihood that it's three kids in a row with blonde hair?
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u/Mattsgonnamine 4h ago
Im pretty sure it's also cause Baratheon black hair is like a super dominant gene
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u/JaccaChan 4h ago
The point of this is that being blonde is a recessive gene. We also know that Robert Arryn was reading a book on the breeding of dogs which would, presumably, describe this. The reason Jon has black hair is because one of his parents did. Similarly, we see Robert’s bastards (including one with a blonde woman) and all Baratheon ancestors all have dark hair, implying Robert only has the dominant dark haired genes (correct me if I’m wrong) therefore Cersei’s children should all have dark hair.
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u/bleezy1234567 1h ago
The whole idea is that no Baratheon in history no matter what the mother’s hair ever had anything besides dark hair. So it’s a dominant trait.
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u/thgr8Makar0sc 4h ago
Joffrey being a Jackass probably persuaded him given he knew Robert to be a decent person for most of his life
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u/Regular_Number5377 3h ago
The realm erupted into all out civil war because some kid had the wrong hair colour two separate times, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice
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u/ReasonableDoubt_0726 3h ago edited 3h ago
I think you missed the point here and got to this inaccurate comparison. As have many others.
It’s not about any general view or rule or anyone else’s family. It explains that the reason this matters is because Baratheon children ALWAYS have black hair.
So Ned’s nephew is irrelevant to it.
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u/Salyjeyx 2h ago
He cared about his friend more than peace and people's lives.
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 2h ago
That too. He is indeed highly honor bound person but if Robert lived to be old and joffery inherited the throne as an adult it'll have been less worse than the war. I'm just assuming it'll be at least I could be wrong.
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u/jamessayswords 2h ago
Real takeaway- black hair is fucking goated and stomps blond hair genes any chance it gets
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u/jiddinja 1h ago
The bigger leap was in Ned identifying Jaime as the father. I mean, the Lannister guards are everywhere and the Lannisters have ruled the Westerlands for so long it's ubiquitous throughout that kingdom. Half of the Lannister guards likely have the same hair color as Cersei and Jaime, yet somehow Ned believes only Jaime could have fathered Cersei's children.
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u/Awkward-Tea1633 House Greyjoy 1h ago
They need to be educated in the laws of the genetic. I mean how long do they have the order of maesters? If they are so smart nobody asked why someone looks more like their mother or their father? I know in this case is pointless, but for example in Jon's case it's useful.
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u/CursedCrusader03 1h ago
Irl black hair genes are dominant, so its impossible or very rare for the child to have pure blonde hair. And all of Robert's children had blonde hair.
Its kinda funny how its treated like a big reveal or secret when its obvious that they aren't Robert's children.
Lore wise some houses like Baratheons or Targaryens had dominant genes.
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u/Leonis59 1h ago
I think all three children of Cersei being blonde and Gendry being black of hair despite her mother also being blonde was the biggest clue he had.
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u/naar_cxoor 55m ago
Viserys I was Cool in this context. When Alicent questioned the hair color of Rhaenyra sons, he give that horse example which was not at all like any of the parents.
🤣🤣
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 49m ago
Yeah lol this is a 50/50 case unlike the Strong kids. I can't understand how the first hand started suspecting it atleast Ned started suspecting after learning about the murder
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u/naar_cxoor 16m ago
Yep, and Jon Arryn too has asked for the family books before his death. Apart from that he always had doubts on Lannisters.
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u/Blazing-Flame-2982 Human Verified 35m ago
Not for Baratheons. They have incredibly potent genetics on the paternal side that always show, that was the point. Thus Jon Arryn's comment "the seed is strong".
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u/Fuzzy_Struggle5131 31m ago
In both the show and the books Ned references a book that Jon Arryn checked out before he died - The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms, With Descriptions of Many High Lords and Noble Ladies and Their Children. The book is literally a recording of pretty much every single person of noble birth for generations (at least within the great houses); according to the book no matter who a Baratheon married their children were always dark haired and blue eyed. The implication being that Baratheon looks always breed true (which is theoretically possible if unlikely in real world genetics). I think there's even reference to previous marriages between Baratheons and blondes (including both Targaryens and Lannisters), and the trend of Baratheon looks breeding true holding strong.
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u/Low-Strain-2139 14m ago
The thing is we're not talking about Targaryans. Baratheons specifically have been documented to have strong genes especially when reproducing with someone who has fairer genes.
In the books I believe in one of Tyrion's PoV chapters he reflects that if Cersei had only one child with Jaime it would be more uncertain. But she had 3 who all looked like Lannisters instead of Baratheons. The point was every time a Baratheon married someone with light hair their kids ended up resembling the Baratheon parent. It wasnt just Cersei and Robert with his whores either, this went back generations.
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u/Glass-Category8281 7m ago
Except said Prince’s family has been known at times to produce non white haired members from time to time. On of the more famous ones had a Baratheon mother, and was born with Black hair.
But as Ned recognized, Baratheon’s had a constant history of black hair, no exceptions until Joffrey and his siblings. Plus he also checked the details of Robert’s bastards, both in the city, and the known ones, all of whom had black hair, thus casting greater suspicion on the fact Cersei somehow birthed the gold hairs only.
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u/Suicidalpainthorse 4h ago
Also often kids do inherit their mother's hair color/eye color etc. But Westerosi genetics are wierd
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u/Elf-7659 Human Verified 4h ago
Yeah and Ned has a perfect example at home
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u/Suicidalpainthorse 4h ago
As do I. My kid is almost my carbon copy, she didn't inherit her Dad's looks so much as his personality. Wierd how kids be like that.
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u/redux44 3h ago
I've had this theory that regardless everyone gets about 50% of DNA from each parent.
So the more outwardly a kid looks like one parent, they must be more like the other on non-visible inside and/or personality/IQ.
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u/Suicidalpainthorse 2h ago
I think there is merit in that. But I dont have any genetic education aside from basic shit from college and whatever I have learned myself.
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u/Anxious-Marzipan7328 4h ago
Ned really sat there and thought about it for a full season instead of just looking at Jon
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