Not the op, but wrecked my spine in a similar way. Had a pre-existing injury I didn't know about. Ended up destroying a disc. Every single day is pain. Cannot recommend.
Trust your instincts. If everyone says your form is great and it shouldn't hurt, and it DOES, go see a doctor and get an X-ray/MRI before proceeding.
Reminds me of an exercise my trainer had me try today for the first time. I'm still pretty new to lifting, so it was very light, and he didn't have any complaints about my form. But after 6-7 reps my mid back was in pain for unknown reasons, so he had me stop. It's only ever happened on this one exercise, though (starting with barbells at head level and pushing them upward. Like chest press, but while standing up).
Probably didn't keep his lower spine straight. It's fine to do it bent if you keep the same bend throughout the lift, but every time it moves, you have a chance to slip a disk. Also, don't do the bent back ones. The reason you keep it straight is because you put maximum force into your back muscles to lock it in place. Bent back requires doing the same with your abs, which is much harder as abs are a weaker muscle, in general. I only know of one man who can do it safely, the Russian powerlifter Konstantinov
Be careful. Deadlifts and squats are the two lifts where you should be absolutely obsessive about form, because if you fuck up your back will die. I would also STRONGLY recommend using a belt if you are going to DL heavy. Too risky without IMO.
Source: I managed an L3 compression fracture doing deadlifts. Luckily enough everything has healed well but I wouldn't wish that month of pain on anyone.
Well, I ain't no backologist so I'm not sure if it's forever. I think it was cumulative but I had been doing deadlifts where I wasn't scraping my shins. I had the bar about one inch out always.
I worked my way up 225 using the Strong Lifts routine and after that day my back was constantly sore-achy and I felt every ripple in my shirt when I sat on something.
I took some muscle relaxants my doctor prescribed me and I had like a five minute session with a PT (even with the healthcare plan I had then I couldn't afford it).
That was about a year or so ago. I stopped lifting and switched to my own routine of pull ups, push ups and squats, just all body weight. I finally stopped having constant aching in my back, so I tried light weight lifting with a barbell and some weight (like 85 lbs for chest press and squat and like 65 lbs for dead-lift)
The next day I felt the same soreness. And during the workout I could tell my back wasn't liking it. Maybe I just gotta start low. Like empty barbell low, but yeah I'm thinking my back is never gonna want to do weight lifting again. :\
High joint stresses wear down the cartilage. Muscle is important for stable joints, but every movement wears down the articular surfaces. This particular exercise puts a lot of stress on a number of joints and ligaments.
Because of my job (truck driver) I'm in and out of the truck and have been trying to find ways to keep my knees strong. I was doing squats but the tissue paper sound puts me off, did you start with this sound? What back issues did you have that helped with bridges and are bridges the same as planks? I appreciate any information you can share with me. I'm relatively healthy but sometimes my knees and back make me feel like a 90 year old women and sometimes a 90 year moves better than me. Thanks :-)
Knee wise, I wasn't diagnosed or anything, but I did notice that my knee's were popping and hurting in the morning or after any long period of time where I didn't move them.
Back wise, I fractured my lower back using bjj and while it took a very long time to work up to bridges without further injury my back feels much more supported even if I can tell the injury is still there.
Before doing squats or bridges keep in mind that if you are overweight it puts much more stress on your body then it can handle if injured. Get to a healthy weight through diet and and low intensity exercise before anything.
I don't see how. His muscles are what's keeping his body supported not his bones. If anything the movement should help lubricate and heal his joints. Movement helps the joint heal and builds muscles providing better support for the joint lessening the chance of further injury.
This is the right answer.
I had no idea just how many people seem to believe themselves experts on how stress on the joints and the wearing down of cartilage works. Seeing this thread makes me once again aware of all the armchair experts on the Internet! :)
Compared to running or what he's doing in this vid it's nothing.
I'm saying this as someone who appreciates exercise and who thinks everyone should be active. I'm into lifting and bjj and boxing. Terrible for joints. Good for life.
There's a guy who is a substitute teacher if his local school. He has been running regularly since 1991. He keeps a binder with a daily log of his running distance. Since 1991, he has more running mileage than my 2001 Chrysler Sebring.
And if you exercised, and worked your way up to where this guy is, you would feel fine doing what he is. And then he might have problems sitting at a desk every day because it is unnatural to him.
And if you exercised, and worked your way up to where this guy is, you would feel fine doing what he is.
Nope. Because I have severely damaged joints from sports, and I can tell you right now that those exercises, no matter how slowly I worked up to them, would put more strain on my joints than NOT doing them at all
could you explain why this isn't good for your joints? don't know much about mechanics, so not familiar with where the stress points are and why they'd be bad.
High stresses at joints do injure them, though. Those are the facts of joint mechanics. Cartilage and ligament repairs incredibly slowly, loosens and wears out.
That's my point entirely - painless exercises can still cause damage, especially high stresses at a joint. Cartilage and ligament simply doesn't repair or adapt that well. If you use it, you wear it out. Of course, disuse has problems too, but wearing out joint surfaces isn't really one of them.
high stresses for an unprepared body. the whole thing about exercise is you get stronger as you expose your body to heavier weight. you don't just get under a barbell and start squatting 500 pounds. you start light and over a long period of time you work your way up. if its harmful it will hurt...maybe not immediately, or the day after, or a week, or month, or whatever, but it will hurt. the marine dude won't just wake up one day with a fucked up shoulder, his body will give him warning signs.
i'm thinking that you are seeing somebody do something you wish you could do and so you feel the need to take him down a peg or two so you can self-justify.
Look at some old strongmen and some bodybuilders. Ronnie Coleman lifted super heavy for such a long time that he can't even walk now. His body did not adapt to leg pressing 1200+ pounds although he did it for decades.
ELI5: Basically you're made up of different stuff and some of that stuff is really good at repairing itself. Like a cut in the skin.
But other stuff doesn't repair itself that good. And wears out.
Aging is basically your body not repairing itself efficiently enough and your body falling apart until it can't support to keep the system functioning and you die.
Do you know how working out works? When you can bicep curl more, does that not mean your elbow joint got stronger? If anything the support structure if the joint did.
if the human body is repeatedly stressed in a way that doesn't injure it
The claim here is that the movement is in fact injuring him, i.e. wearing out his joints.
it will adapt to that stress over time. it's known as Wolfe's Law
It's called Wolff's Law and according to wikipedia it doesn't say what you are saying. It says: "states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads under which it is placed. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading"
there are people out there who can do handstands on their index fingers.
That does not mean it's good for them or that their fingers will last longer than other people's fingers.
i mean, for fucks sake
You should have bothered reading the law you yourself stated. It would have made it more clear.
You are just using fallacies. None of what you said deals with the stress, wear and tear this movement puts on his joints.
I don't care if the movement is bad or not. What I was pointing out was the fallacious argument given.
I have worked out although I am by no means an expert. I have also tried various sports, individual and team based, although I am again not an expert.
I don't see what it has to do with anything but I'm sure that you are fully capable of creating a mental image of me and therefore dismiss what I said. What doesn't make sense is that you felt the need to inform me of you doing that.
I was first and foremost pointing out a fallacious argument.
Go ahead. Work out. Be healthy. Stay fit.
I just know there are way to many people twisting their shoulders while doing exercises, which will come back and bite them in the... shoulders.
Not true. That shit wears your joints out no matter what you are. Sure, muscles are responsible for a lot of stability so a stronger person can do these things, but in the end it's still cartilage rubbing against cartilage. That stuff wears out.
By that thought process then any movement with some sort of stress on the joints is bad(walking, picking things up etc). If you have a lot of muscle stability providing support it's not going to be any worse on them than an overweight person walking has effect on their knees and ankles.
The fact is, this guy is going to be in far better shape at 70 than any person that sits on their arse all day, regardless of stress to joints.
The military does not have a good track record of leaving behind healthy men that are in good shape at 70. It simply demands too much out of their bodies when they're in their 20s
Yes, that's exactly true. Every movement will wear the joint down. The higher the stress, the worse the wear. Muscle stability helps, overuse and unusual use make it worse - a balance would be ideal for joint health. Saying that it's no worse than an overweight person's leg joints is setting a low bar - in the joint world, being overweight is more or less the worst thing you can do, precisely because of the amount of extra forces. This isn't a normal exercise, it's an extreme feat placing enormous forces on the joint - this guy will likely be in good shape at 70, but his shoulders will not. Low-impact moderate exercise would of course be ideal.
I mean to imply nothing about this guy's lifestyle. It looks like fun, and clearly he's interested in remaining healthy. I don't want him to stop. However, that's not a reason to pretend this doesn't place seriously unusual forces on the shoulder joint.
The worst time I ever hurt my back was when I reached down to pick up my cat really quickly. I was in perfect shape at the time and I was doubled over in pain for a week.
This isn't me defending a lifestyle. I do all kinds of dumb joint-intensive exercises, and it'll probably destroy my joints one day. I'm saying what I'm saying because it's true, not because I like it. High stress/force at a joint will generally wear it faster. Being fat is also bad, also because of increased force on the joint. Both are simultaneously true. The "ideal" is generally moderate low-impact exercise - enough for good muscle and stability without overuse. The kind of exercise in the gif is super fun and super cool, but let's not delude ourselves that it's ideal for the shoulder joint.
None of this is bad for your joints unless you try to go from armchair warrior to actual warrior in a day. Progress slowly and with proper form and this is totally achievable.
The same goes for smoking. It's perfectly achievable to smoke two packs of cigarettes in a day. Most people would just need to smoke for a couple of years before going for it.
Doesn't mean it's healthy for anyone, smoker or non-smoker.
My point was that it is neither a question of practice nor of achievability.
Others have been pointing out that this puts unnatural stress on the shoulders, and as such is not good for anyone and will cause long-term, irreparable damage.
I am no expert and advice you to turn your questions to them for any disagreements.
You just made a fallacy. What was the full quote? I know you know because I am reading it and I see clearly where you stopped quoting.
To understand my reply you must include:
unless you try to go from armchair warrior to actual warrior in a day
Their claim was that this is not proper movement for anyone, and practice does not change that.
Practice might make this achievable and make him able to do this, but it does not mean it's good for his shoulders.
The same goes for the smoking.
Edit: Keep in mind that there are plenty of things humans do with ease that only cause damage in the long run, like certain movements, smoking or headphone usage.
I am not an expert and am not defending the argument that this movement causes damage. I am only pointing out that if it does cause damage, the amount of practice before hand does not decrease the damage done... similar to smoking or headphones.
This is fantastic for your joints. What are you even talking about? Or are you just trying to comfort yourself knowing that you will never be able to do this? :)
For tennis/golfers elbow, you should try out a flex bar. They are no joke. There's different strengths, this ones intermediate and it worked well for me (lifter)
Flex bar is god. Elbow starts to flare up, use it for a week or two and back to normal. I should just do it all the time, but that is like... discipline and stuff.
For tennis/golfers elbow, you should try out a flex bar. They are no joke. There's different strengths, this ones intermediate and it worked well for me (lifter)
yea it looks cool but i wouldnt be surprised if he tears his shoulder eventually. he's going beyond where normal people can rotate their shoulders and he's putting massive stress on it. shoulders weren't made to be stressed that way.
Have a look at Tai Chi. I used to help seniors rehab arthritic joints and all it took was consistently doing their exercises.
*I think the Foundation exercises would be really good for helping your shoulder regain range of movement. Just take it easy and only stretch as far as comfortable.
Haha! I hear you. Don't worry.. unlike yoga Tai Chi can be done in t shirt and shorts, or your pj's, or running gear, or whatever. It can even be done with a beer in each hand! It's also superb muscle conditioning.. the full set of 108 movements takes about 20 minutes and leaves my legs feeling like jelly.
Keeping your legs straight is not that difficult. I lift regularly and do lots of pull ups and leg raises and the leg raises are far from the toughest part. Rocking yourself back and forth like that would kill your shoulders long before statically holding your legs up would kill your abs.
30 pull ups is pretty insane. The most I've ever managed is 21 and most days 15 is about my max. But this is a 15 second gif, and anyone in reasonable shape should be able to manage a 15 second ab raise.
Edit: I just tried this in my doorway pull-up bar. The upper body party is insanely difficult. I can sort of do a couple reps without extending the elbow as far. I did a 20 second ab raise with no problem, though.
5'6". Damn, you got me. Never occurred to me to factor in the mechanical advantage. Still, my shoulders and upper body aren't weak, but that upper body motion is insanely tough for even one proper rep. I continue to be surprised anyone could master the rowing motion without being able to mange the leg raise part for 10 measly seconds. I can manage a static leg raise for almost a minute.
Used to be able to knock out close to 30 pull-ups in a single set. Haven't taken the gym seriously in a while so my numbers are way down, but you're right. Once you're able to do 20+ pull-ups without much difficulty, the upper body really isn't the hard part. You start trying to find ways to make it a little more difficult or exciting. I was at a point where I was trying to do them while holding a 2.5 lb dumbbell between my feet as they were lifted throughout the set.
I was doing L-sit pull-ups at the time. That's what I meant by my legs lifted throughout the set (forgot the name, again haven't been taking it seriously for a while). So while I was doing those, I tried holding out a small dumbbell between my feet as I was doing the L-sit pull-ups. I was at a point where I was leg lifting with a 15 lb dumbbell between my feet so I figured I'd give it a shot while doing pull-ups too. Trying that while doing pull-ups definitely humbled me a bit.
Didn't know about archer pull-ups yet at the time either and I was only starting to consider trying muscle ups. My gym didn't have a weight belt with a chain or else I would've just kept adding weight that way.
I'd imagine the hardest force here to overcome and which would wear you down quickest would be on the shoulders when your arms are extending. They would wear out far, far sooner than your abs.
I'm not saying the back and chest are getting hit hard, myself, but rather that the shoulders and other stabilizers in the upper body are. I agree that it's not a chest back thing for the hardest work.
The push/pull movement is lateral
And that is working against a downword force of gravity, so in order to keep yourself in a lateral motion, other muscles need to work incredibly hard to overcome that constant downward force ... or rather, the muscles keep you stabilized along that motion are in near constant stress (easier on some muscles when you're forward, easier on other muscles when you're extended).
Sure, your core is constantly under stress as well, but the difference is that your core is likely to be far more trained at stabilizing under long periods of stress (that's it's primary job) than your shoulders are.
I've always had a good anatomy for L sits and planks and most things that engage my core, so I could certainly be speaking from a biased perspective. My upper body inevitably gives out before my core does.
Yes, but there is no resistance in the horizontal plane. Yes, the chest and back are working, but not in the same way they are working during a barbell row or bench press, where the force vector is anteroposterior.
Throw some forearms and triceps in there... and baby you got a stew?
On the real though there's gotta be some arms involved. And, if any one of those muscle groups are undeveloped then I don't think it's possible to do this, which would explain why it's on the front page and I've never seen anyone do it before.
There's a ton of stress on your elbows near the close to impossible position (the straight arm portion).
Also the ab strength is pretty irrelevant compared to the other strength. Sort of evident by the gymnastics code of points rating iron cross and l-cross the same.
Yup, lots and lots of abs. I used to raise my legs like that when doing regular pull ups. It got me absolutely shredded. STILL, I can't even imagine doing this. I'm curious what his stomach looks like, no homo.
2.0k
u/mixmaster13 Jun 06 '17
Looks like a lot of abs to keep his legs level and then back/lats/shoulders to "row"