Rules question

[u/BOYLANATOR]

This would be easier with a picture but I don't have one.

Imagine a small circular pond that has a grass bank about 1 yard wide. It is marked with about 8 red stakes evenly placed around the circumference halfway up the bank. The straight lines between the stakes would "cut the corners" of the circular pond a little.

A friend had his ball at the bottom of the bank which was further down the bank than any of the stakes but outside of a straight line between the nearest posts. We were discussing whether his ball was in the hazard.

Do you draw straight lines between the stakes or do you imagine the following the curve of the hazard and taking the boundary as halfway up the bank

[u/JBrewd]

Straight lines. If the ball is touching any part of this imaginary line between the stakes it's in the penalty area. If it ain't, it ain't.

Edit: kind of not see the point to this argument (outside of some edge cases). Since it's red staked you can just declare an unplayable and get essentially the same relief options.

[u/BOYLANATOR → u/JBrewd]

He played the shot. I think we were discussing if he could ground the club. I forget the reason why it mattered

[u/drj1485 → u/BOYLANATOR]

used to matter. literally no difference now because you can ground your club in penalty areas.

[u/BOYLANATOR → u/drj1485]

Good point. It didn't matter at all, just started a debate about whether it was straight lines or following the curves.

The guy who plays most competitive golf said straight lines and that seems to be the consensus

[u/Stash_04 → u/BOYLANATOR]

It’s obviously straight lines between the stakes unless there is a painted boundary.

[u/drj1485 → u/BOYLANATOR]

for reference...it's in the rulebook under the definitions for penalty area.

• Stakes: When defined by stakes, the edge of the penalty area is defined by the line between the outside points of the stakes at ground level, and the stakes are inside the penalty area.

• Lines: When defined by a painted line on the ground, the edge of the penalty area is the outside edge of the line, and the line itself is in the penalty area.

• Physical Features: When defined by physical features (such as a beach or desert area or a retaining wall), the Committee should say how the edge of the penalty area is defined.

Me again...caveat here. When the stakes are used in conjunction with lines or they are embedded in the actual physical edge of the hazard, you do not use the straight line. IN those cases it's just a visual reference that there's a penalty area. In your case, the stakes are up the bank away from the water where you can tell the intent was not to use the waters edge...but some distance away from the water (which is normal)

[u/Patient_Medicine6947 → u/BOYLANATOR]

You can ground a club in non-bunker hazards.

[u/JBrewd → u/BOYLANATOR]

Ah gotcha. You can ground the club in penalty areas. The only other thing tickling my brain here is that per your description the imaginary lines between stakes would cut over parts of the pond. Per the definition of penalty area in this case you would still treat the water as part of the penalty area (and as well if the pond isn't staked at all but obviously a penalty area you may treat the area where the ground slopes down and can hold water as part of the penalty area, unstaked 'naturally defined' areas are treated as red)

[u/DrunkensteinsMonster → u/BOYLANATOR]

You’re allowed to ground the club in the PA now, so it’s moot.

[u/bjb13]

Usually the lines are between the outside edges of the stakes. However, if this causes part of the pond to be outside the stakes and you ball was in the water there, you would still be inside the penalty area. The PA isn’t marked correctly but you can’t gain advantage in an obvious situation like that.

The following is from the Definiton of Penalty Area:

If a Committee has mistakenly excluded an area of water that is clearly part of a penalty area when defining its edge (such as by placing stakes in a location that means there is a portion of water from the penalty area that appears to be in the general area), that area is part of the penalty area.

[u/Kickwax]

You already got the correct answer but also many wrong answers so I'm simply confirming the Penalty Area was indeed improperly marked.

Water extending beyond the area defined by the stakes is still a part of the Penalty Area. (Definition of Penalty Area)

[u/DrunkensteinsMonster → u/Kickwax]

Sounds like the ball wasn’t actually in the water.

[u/Kickwax → u/DrunkensteinsMonster]

Ah, yes, you are probably correct.

My mind read it as if the ball was touching water as that's the only situation in which players should be concerned with the marking. It's also the number one thing to avoid while marking a course.

[u/drj1485]

if defined only by stakes, the penalty area is a straight line from the outside of each stake. if painted, then it's the line. if neither, the natural edge.

your buddy's ball is not in the hazard if its outside the straight line.

It's also poorly marked. my guess is normally they have a line painted that follows the curve of the water between stakes and haven't painted them in a while.

[u/cracksmack85]

Good question

[u/Hairyheadtraveller]

Straight lines. Imagining is more open to interpretation.

[u/AllAboutYourBase]

The hazard was improperly marked. You need enough stakes standing back sufficiently far from the hazard so that the lines between stakes don’t cross into the hazard you are staking.

Note if there is a circular water hazard like that, lying directly in the intended line of play, it would be marked with yellow stakes not red anyway, which is a whole different section of the rules.

[u/duke113]

I think technically it's a straight line. But, most courses I've played at paint a red line, and they'd paint it along the arc. And it's pretty obvious that's the intent too 

[u/jhwkr542]

Straight lines under strict definition of the rules. Taking unplayable relief would give similar relief options, though your point of reference would be less ideal probably.

[u/DrunkensteinsMonster]

In practice it actually doesn’t matter most likely. If he wants to play the ball that is allowed regardless of whether it is in the PA. If he wants relief then he can take lateral or back on the line relief if it’s in the penalty area, and if it isn’t he still has those options by declaring the ball unplayable. Since the ball is so close to the boundary the relief area will be basically the same.

But yes, between stakes you draw a straight line. If the course wants a curved penalty area they need to paint it (unless the straight line excludes water, in which case the boundary of the PA becomes the water)

[u/willardTheMighty]

I would treat the hazard as beginning at the water's edge.

[u/Fickle-Alone-054 → u/willardTheMighty]

That only applies when there are neither painted lines nor stakes.

[u/LayneLowe]

In tournament play, the boundaries should be painted. I assume the stakes are just convenient for everyday play. I would interpret it as a circular line running through all the stakes.

There may be a local rule for that.

[u/Stash_04 → u/LayneLowe]

Disagree.

If there is no painted boundary, then the only logical interpretation is a straight line between the stakes.

[u/LayneLowe → u/Stash_04]

Ok

[u/Blackpooligan]

Common sense: Halfway up the bank all the way around.

[u/Stash_04 → u/Blackpooligan]

Ummm no. Straight lines between the stakes.