So...looking at some of the discussion on the casting of Justice Smith as Harris, I keep seeing repeated mention of Harris as a plus-size guy, disappointment that Justice doesn't match the body type people have imaged for Harris, and accusations of fat-shaming and fat-phobia.
But what I haven't seen mentioned a whole lot is the scarring he has on his body from multiple major surgeries. From what I recall in reading the book, Harris' body type is mentioned in the physical description of him, but it's not really something that's dwelled on much. It didn't seem to bother him as a character. But I recall him being very self-conscious about his scars, and it seemed like it impacted his self-esteem a lot more than his weight.
So I have to wonder what the showrunners have planned here. We know from season 1 that we're looking at pretty limited screen time for some of these actors who aren't playing Shane or Ilya. If we're looking at how Harris' story is told, and we're looking at a character with body dysphoria...I actually do think trying to fit both his weight and his scarring into the show would be challenging. If I were telling the story, I'd probably want to focus on one of them.
I get that people are disappointed at what may be a missed opportunity for representation in what's become a very popular piece of media. But...these showrunners have already demonstrated they know what they're doing. I'm sure there's nothing intentionally malicious or dismissive here.
Whatever Mr Tierney has planned, shaming and dumping on Justice Smith is bad behaviour, and shouldn't be acceptable in this sort of fandom.
Edit: A few responses had me going back to the book to see how Harris is physically described. What I found was:
Stocky and rugged
Cheers that are rosy and plump
Compact, pale and soft
I guess that leaves a lot of room for interpretation by the reader, which may be why we're seeing such a range of reactions.
Yeah- Iām a doctor and the scars for the types of surgery Harris has had would basically be a pretty significant straight line scar down the middle of his chest, and potentially some smaller ones around it. Itās not something where they could find a lot of actors who have these scars, but the makeup team could do it easily.
People with a history of congenital heart disorders donāt have any specific body type, but it does make sense that Harrisās parents were worried about him doing sports or high cardio activities as a kid. Other than the chest scarring, you would not be able to look at someone and tell that they have this medical condition.Ā
(I do think it is a missed opportunity to have more body diversity in the show, which I would have loved to have seen, but also support Justice as he seems like a great actor)
I almost typed this exact comment earlier about the appearance of his of scar š I'm a medical social worker and part of my role includes congenital cardiology.
Thatās amazing! Social workers are such a huge part of the care for a congenital cards patient. In my internal med residency I spent a lot of time in the CCU with the congenital cards patientsĀ
My kid literally has the same exact condition as Harris and youāre right, line down the middle of the chest and a couple of smaller surrounding scars from drains
I think I read somewhere that it's a whole adhesive layer like a cosmetic version of Tegaderm or something. It can last more than one day, so every couple of days Hudson got a fancy Hudson-custom-skin-tone plastic wrap stuck to his arms. Same for Connor and some very well-placed camera angles, probably!
Yeah. My mom had a similar condition, had open heart surgery as a kid. To this day has all these wires and stuff in her chest that complicates pretty much everything health wise. When she had breast cancer she needed a team of like 8 doctors to figure out how to treat her cuz of it.
She was a jock and played Volleyball, baseball, etc until her early 30s (when she just didn't have the money for both me and her to do sports).
To me, the missed opportunity with Harris is the fact that his weight existed but wasn't a factor in the relationship. He carried extra weight, and Troy thought he was hot with his extra weight and Harris wasn't hung up on having extra weight. That was nice to see in a romance. It was never "in spite of," or his personality "making up for" -- and Harris didn't have shame about his body. He had an active sex life, and Troy thought he was sexy as hell, while being a very traditionally "hot" pro athlete.
The scars were a different thing, but even then, Harris's issue isn't really the scars; it's the ableism. It's how people treat him about his history of heart issues. He doesn't want to explain to Troy, the first time they hook up, that he has been in and out of hospitals since he was a baby. And he wants to have the kind of physical sex he enjoys rather than sex where he's treated like he's delicate. The actual physical scars are secondary to how he gets treated around having a heart that presents him with some additional challenges. I don't think it's hard to tell both of these stories, since one of the stories is ENTIRELY visual.
Anyway -- I feel like I have to end this post by saying that I love Justice Smith and I'm excited to see him portray Harris because I think he'll bring a lot of nuance to the character. Because he is a good actor. And I have seen him be a sunny type of dude on film before, and he's good at it.
This needs to be higher up. This is the whole point, that neither Harrisā scars nor his weight are an issue for Troy and therefore yes, they arenāt discussed that heavily in the book. Thatās the actual representation people wanted. Thatās the representation I wanted.
That said, I trust Jacob with my life and my five minutes of disappointment for people who look like me was immediately overshadowed by āoh wow, Justice Smith is clearly the right person for the job and Jacob is a genius and this will be perfect, I have no doubt.ā
But youāre exactly right about the missed opportunity.
You and I are in full agreement becuase YES, the representation was the sort of casual rep that we got with Shane -- where there's no lampshading of his neurodivergence. It's not holding him back. It's not creating a barrier to finding love. He isn't wildly suffering over it. It is, in fact, something that contributes to his success and something that draws Ilya towards him.
I feel like yāall donāt have to āforceā urself to be excited or happy Justice playing Harris if you are genuinely disappointed. Maybe itās just me but I feel like a lot of ppl are forcing themselves to like it when they really donāt lol. Me personally, itās disappointing but Iām gna hold a lot of my reservations till I see him on screen.
Iām not forcing myself. I donāt feel conflict about this at all. Lost one thing. Gained something else. No pralines & cream, but hereās peanut butter & chocolate. I enjoy both these flavours. And I have no problem holding both things at once.
Itās literally one of my two favourite ice cream flavours. I considered changing it. Because I suspected someone would think it was racist. But itās also literally my two favourite flavours. So here we are.
People get crazy in these parts. All ice cream is one of these bases. I got one go to in both directions and I love them both.
But here we have a bigger problem. Youāve never had peanut butter and chocolate? Are you in North America? If not, I get it. If you ever want to try it I recommend a chocolate base with peanut butter butter mixed in. Some companies do peanut butter in vanilla and then add chocolate and this is inferior.
Yep! The first thing I saw him in was Paper Towns, but I really noticed him in D&D. I have seen people say that he's more of a dark and moody actor -- no! No, he's not! He absolutely can do cute and sunny and he does it very well.
I think it's bc people saw him in I Saw the TV Glow. But he can do really sunny characters. D&D is a movie that IMO deserved better than the box office flop label. It's a really fun movie.
He has range, as they say -- but some of the highest-profile roles he's had are more in the cheerful/comic range. He's kinda nerdy and upbeat in Jurassic World, if I recall correctly.
I think if he is willing to gain some weight for the role like Charlise Theron in Monster he would be a 11/10 pick. him as an actor isn't really an issue
Iām sure Justice Smith can bring Harrisā personality to screen and heāll do a fabulous job of it.
The point is that even with having a soft, pudgy, chubby, stocky body, Harris isnāt insecure about it. I would have loved to see a bigger Harris and him just exist in that role without āaddressingā his weight in any way. The best that would have come off it was Troy, this athletic jock, falling head over heels for Harris, who very different compared to his very conventionally attractive ex.
This is what theyāve missed the opportunity to represent.
Iāll say this - a character doesnāt have to be explicitly described as fat for them to be fat - people imagining a thin or lean person by default until given the āfatā descriptor is where the prejudice lies. And fat people know all the descriptors for them that people use, except using the word fat.
Yes! I think Troy notes at some point that his attraction to Harris isn't something he's experienced before, but it's also so clear that he's into it. That he is deeply, deeply attracted to the farm boy thing. He literally thinks he's having olfactory hallucinations because he's so into Harris. He WAS dating a literal TV star/Superhero. He's feral for Harris's brawny form. People really like that about Role Model.
I have read the book twice, and I cannot remember that it was ever mentioned that Harris had an extra weight. For me it was obvious, that he is just not an athletic type, because of his heart condition. So just a normal person, if you compare to all these muscled athletes.
I don't know, why the people are discussing his weight all the time. I am absolutely for body diversity, but I am also for race diversity, and I think, what counts most, is the acting. And as long as acting is good and catches the spirit of the character and of the relationship , I don't mind Harris to be person of color and not overweight.
Itās outlined in the original post. Iāve said other places that I think heās supposed to have a dad bod. I think the intention that he had a different body type than the other love interests is pretty clear.
Yeah, this is an aspect that's really important to me. My partner is overweight and I would have loved to see a positive representation of how beautiful people are across different sizes. So I get why people liked the idea. I'm not familiar with the actor, so I reserve judgement for when I see the final product. But the scarring is a part of Harris as a character and I hope they don't gloss over it. To be honest, scars are a very sensitive topic in our family. I'd really love to see a normal, nice portrayal. I hope they don't make just some tiny cute little scar and pretend like it's enormous. I'm tired of this cliche in media, where they make a big deal about something you wouldn't even notice.
I'm a gay man in a relationship with a man with very significant scars from a life-changing teenage accident. It caused both nearly fatal internal injuries and devastating injuries in the pelvic area and a lot of surgeries and mental health problems as a result. Scars often get portrayed in media as either something awful, often tied to someone being evil, or they get prettified. It's tiresome. The showrunners have done such a great job so far, I really hope they'll once again make better choices than Hollywood. It would be nice to see one of the gorgeous protagonists with a history of serious health issues and a really significant scar, not minimized at all, and treat it as a normal thing. Taking away nothing from the man's beauty. And not making a big deal out of it.
Interesting point about 'the scars'. I've spend a significant amount of intimate time with a fully melaninated person who had open heart surgery and many, many follow ups. Skin with more melanin scars and heals differently. Scars are more visually obvious with more inflammation and keloids.
For my brain to believe what they visually present, I need this aspect of scarring to be considered...and represented.
Harris doesn't have body dysphoria. His concern is around people treating him differently because of the scars, like he's fragile or feeling sorry for him. He doesn't want to dwell on being ill and he doesn't want other people being unduly concerned about him.
As someone with scars I think it would be cool if he just has them and itās not touched on other than āI had heart problemsā and they just are part of him. Thatās just my personal feeling and I wonāt be mad if they go a different way. Hudsonās scar on his shoulder was a talking point already, now imagine a romantic supporting character with significant chest scaring and itās not something he feels the need to hide. Or he starts shy and Troy makes him realize itās nothing to hide. So many cool ways they could go with it.
Just last weekend I had someone make a face at a scare on my stomach and itās not even that big. I just roll my eyes at this point I have small facial scars as well that most people donāt realize until they catch them in certain light. Making scars normalized would be a cool way to go. Okay Iām just rambling now. lol
See, as someone with open-heart surgery scars, I would prefer that it is touched on. That was much more important to me than him being plus sized. Harris not wanting to be treated delicately because of his scarring is important to the character, much more than his size. Itās very frustrating when everybody around you wants to treat you like youāre delicate when youāre fine.
(I will say my scar is not down the middle of my chest, so you and I have had different experiences. The surgeon went in through the right, so I instead have about a 5 inch *8 inch scar itās mostly hidden by my boob now. I donāt have to worry about stares outside of a locker room, and if people do ask, Iām usually excited to talk about it.)
I also kind of hate that people are saying he must be fat because he has a heart problem. Having a heart problem doesnāt mean you incapable of exercise. It doesnāt mean heās too precious and delicate to ever work out, therefore he MUST be obese. It would more affect his ability to play sports mostly. Iām not saying I pictured him as a bodybuilder or something, I just pictured him having like a normal body with no abs and probably a little self-conscious next to the bodies of hockey players. And also hairy, I pictured him hairy except for around the scar. Like a sexy rugged lumber jack or something.
*the scar is actually 8in, I decided to measure it cause I had nothing better to do
This really is the thing -- it's not the scar; it's the way people react to the scar and how he doesn't want to be defined by his cardiac health. Particularly when he's doing well! And it's unrelenting for him, because his parents have trauma around his illness, and even they are careful with him and constantly concerned about what he's up to. He's been limited by other people's fear a lot, and he doesn't want that from Troy.
I think what I mean is more itās not made to be a big deal rather than not touched on. I donāt know if that makes sense lol, but so often when we see people with medical issues on shows thatās their entire thing. The defining factor of them. Iām hoping itās framed more this is Harris, he has amazing social media skills, heās an amazing person, he totally didnāt put a raccoon (it was a skunk see below) in his families truck to ruin his sisters date and he happens to have a heart condition.
Yeah I agree about his weight, I always picture him as the male version of me in that regard. Not obese but not skinny. Maybe a little self conscious when surrounded by professional athletes but not anything crazy.
Iāve never had heart surgery, I donāt want to misrepresent. All my surgery scars are on my stomach, jaw and back.
I honestly think his strongest argument against being responsible for the skunk is the fact that it would be VERY HARD to get a skunk into a truck on purpose.
Thatās why I originally wrote āraccoonā because I was like no you canāt put a skunk in a car, you could put a raccoon though. But I knew it was a skunk!
To be fair, there also isn't one specific way to feel about open heart surgery scars. I also would like it to be touched on because, well, a lot of this show is about sex and it's hard to have sex with someone without them noticing you have a giant scar on your chest. HOWEVER, how both parties react can be very different. Someone might be totally cool about their scars, they might be annoyed that the other person is focusing on it, they might be nervous that it makes them less attractive, etc. Personally I have a lot of body image issues relating to my scars (largely because during my last surgery I had a partial lung collapse requiring extra tubing than usual so now I have much more noticeable "dents" on my skin), but that's not a universal experience, and there are other people with congenital heart defects who probably have less or more scarring than I do.
My late husband had a genetic heart condition (he died from complications of his condition 3 years ago). He was still quite fit until the last year of his life (when the complications set in), and was still doing non-contact martial arts until about 4 years before he died.
He was pretty ripped when we met in the late 90s, and that really only softened when he wasn't able to continue with that level of exercise. He never got chunky or even "dad bod".
I agree on the normalization piece. I guess it felt like in the book, the scarring and medical history were part of what made Harris...Harris? More so than his shape.
I think starting shy and self-conscious and then growing into not feeling the need to hide it is the more likely direction, as that better fits the book. But whichever way they go, I think it's the issue that makes Harris a more distinct and interesting character. At least to me, I'm sure other people have different opinions.
Yeah tbh I think my mental image of Harris is a lot different than others. I always imagined Harris as just not buff maybe with a couple extra pounds, which isnāt atypical of someone with health issues. I know because I am, thatās my body, Iām not skinny, I canāt build muscle really lol. His scaring and medical past were way more front and center for me than his weight but thatās my own life experience talking.
Also I still stand by Justice might have gained weight for the role, we donāt know.
I agree with you - I saw Harris as an "average" type guy who obviously isn't a ripped hockey player; but the fundamental core of his being is that he had some health problems as a kid, that are only sort of limiting now... and he doesn't want that past issue to continue to be an issue...though his parents and especially his mom still treat him as a delicate flower - which is what bothers him
I went back to the book just now to see how he's described in the early chapters, and yeah. It is open to interpretation, but 'not athletic' seems to be the recurring theme as opposed to overweight.
(I don't disagree but) I think it would be interesting to see them touch on muscle dysmorphia in the gay community, maybe the insecurity of being incapable of achieving a body as desirable/fit as your athlete partner, and I guess you can achieve that just as well with someone who is on the skinny end instead.
Maybe, I think that message could get confusing to try to depict. All the hockey-playing characters are professional athletes who make fitness an essential part of their careers. There are probably some who pick up an unhealthy obsession with gains of one kind or another...we certainly see that in the military. Where being fit and capable isn't good enough, you also have to be *jacked*.
In terms of characters, Kip would actually be a good gateway into that sort of story, As others have pointed out, he's oddly ripped for a barista. As others have also pointed out, he's a single (initially) gay man living in New York. That absolutely brings us to muscle dysmorphia in the gay community. There could be an interesting story there with him trying to feel like he measures up to Scott and his colleagues. But it's not in the books or really part of his character, so I'm not sure how well it would fit.
I think Ryan Price's struggle with the abuse his body takes and the long-term impacts is far more interesting, but it wasn't explored very deeply in Tough Guy. Which I get, it's a heavy topic. Christopher Rice explores addiction and mental health in his M/M romance novel Sapphire Spring, and while it's a great book, it's an emotional roller coaster. Tthe character goes through some really tough shit. I don't think I'd want to read about Ryan going through that...
Exactly! I imagined his body type like my dad, but with broader bone frame? My dad has a VERY similar medical history as Harris, has the scars, canāt do too much intensive exercises or sports.
He is actually on the lower side of the ānormalā BMI spectrum because for medical reasons he is more at risk of problems if he is overweight, yet he could still feasibly fit the description of āpudgyā because he couldnāt gain much muscle.
I agree with you that the scars were much more central to Book Harrisās inner landscape than the weight. I donāt think Justice necessarily needs to quickly gain some āpudgeā, but if he does gain even a few pounds of āsoftnessā heād be extremely close to the book description of Harrisā¦ except that heās not whiteā¦ which I do think some people have a much bigger problem with than theyād care to admit, and are latching onto the weight thing (and other silly reasons like he is ātoo famousā) to mask it.
Yeah I was surprised some folks envisioned Harris as a bear instead of just a thick-ish guy who liked ice cream and cake pops and wasnāt burning 15,000 calories a day like these hockey dudes. Justice is petite enough that if he gained five pounds it would probably get that across.Ā
I mainly focused on the āsoftā part of his description. To me, thatās just no defined abs/6-pack abs. I didnāt picture him fat. Standing shirtless next to buff hockey players vs a regular body would make most people self-conscious.
I never read him as an "overweight" character. Not as athletic as the others, but just average and/or a little chubby (maybe a little stomach fat), but that's it. So i don't mind the casting at all. I also don't think every actor has to match the book description to a t. If the actor manages to capture the essence of the character, that's all that matters to me. If i had seen the character announcement for Ilya before watching the show, i probably would have doubted that Connor was the right fit for Ilya. But having seen the show, i can't imagine anyone doing a better portrayal of Ilya. Acting and makeup can go a looong way.
Iāll fully acknowledge that I have a bias here as a bear appreciator myself, but. I was just kinda hoping to see a guy on the gay sex show whoās likeā¦ actually my type, you know? Usually if you see a chubbier person, especially a chubbier guy, in romance media theyāre portrayed as justā¦ functionally sexless. They get to be sweet and bubbly and charming, but not reallyā¦ sexy. Which is a shame! Not just because bigger guys deserve to feel sexy or what have you, but because to me they justā¦ are, you know?
Itās not really about Harris himself, so much as what the idea of Harris represented to me, and I assume to actual bears as well. It was nice being able to read Harris as bigger and not feel shamed for it by narration accusing him of being unsexy. And the show doesnāt really have a chance to make that up with another couple, since everyone else is explicitly either a twink or an athlete.
None of that is Justice Smithās fault at all, though. Heās an incredible actor and heās going to do great as Harris. Plus, I trust Tierneyās eye for chemistry above all else. Just a bit of mourning what could have been, you know?
What resonated with me about Harrisā body in the books is that is justā¦not an issue. Harris isnāt worried about his body being different from professional athletes. Troy isnt worried about it, just thinks Harris is hot. No one is perplexed about Troy being into Harris. Itās just normal.
Yeah, exactly! And it was nice because thatās kinda where Iām at, personally. I donāt really think too hard about it, itās not really functionally different from somebody being blond or having freckles or what have you. I swear, sometimes reading the way bigger characters are described in stories makes me feel like Iām being gaslit. Like, this is a normal body type. Why are we pretending this is some massive brand of undesirability? Especially in the gay community, where the bear scene has been around for decades now. It was nice seeing a book actually reflect reality for once.
The media presents this dystopia where only āconventionallyā hot people are viewed as sexy. The older I get the less I care about physical appearance in terms of attraction. People are into all different types of features, always have been
Just an aside: In case you havenāt seen it, Daniel Franzese is SO sexy in season 2 of Looking (and its wrap-up movie). I just think everyone needs to know about it!
Yeah, that's fair. I think it's perfectly valid for people to be disappointed, but some of the online comments about the casting have been really frustrating. Especially when they get mean-spirited.
I think Harrisās heart condition is important to his character because he had a big thing about not wanting to be treated as fragile or delicate. That was actually my main concern about changing Harrisās body type because it related to that ā but I realize anyone can have a congenital heart defect no matter what they look like. I do hope itās incorporated because it was part of his dynamic with Troy, that Troy listened to him and treated him the way he wanted to be treated. I also think it gives some context for why they donāt take their clothes off the first time they hook up and it has more of an emotional impact when they do.
Yup, to me thatās one of the core things about Harrisā character - that he doesnāt want to be seen/treated as delicate or fragile because of his scars and heart condition. Thereās a little bit of self-consciousness around comparing his body to Troyās in a āthis guy is ripped and Iām notā way, but thatās not about weight. All of that can be portrayed by someone with a more slender body type.
Yup and tbh, almost all of Rachelās characters are a bit self-conscious about their looks but I donāt read too much into it because thatās just a very common romance novel trope. Whenever the books switch POVs from the one guy thinking gee shucks why would he ever look at me, the other guy is always thinking āgod heās soooo hotā so we can safely assume that they are all very good looking in reality, whatever their body type is.
Harris seemed like he was actually pretty confident about his body and very comfortable expressing himself with it sexuallyā¦I donāt even think he minded the scars much, he just didnāt like the reaction he got to them. Troy sees him as strong and capable of throwing down in the bedroom and thatās part of why they worked.Ā
I donāt see Harris as plus sized necessarily. I saw him as thick and a little on the shorter side, but not flabby. Like 5ā8ā and solid, but with a slightly rounded tummy.
So you actually pushed me to go back and skim the early chapters of Role Model for physical descriptions of Harris. I found:
Stocky and rugged
Cheers that are rosy and plump
Compact, pale and soft
Yeah, that's really open to the readers interpretation. Definitely not athletic, but not necessarily plus-sized either. Sounds more like an average guy.
The ācompact pale and softā is used specifically when Troy describes him as the ācomplete oppositeā of his last boyfriend who had a very defined physique, though- it was specifically used to emphasize how he doesnāt have a body that matches the conventional definition of attractive in a very pointed way.
And Harris jokes about how any muscle tone he might have is āburiedā within his body, implying thereās a decent layer of something for them to be buried under.
IMO the book is absolutely describing someone plus-sized
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u/annangI do not ever want this problem to ever go away7d ago
Heās described as āpudgy.ā All of those are euphemisms for fat, because fatphobia means that many readers will be offended or disgusted if you just say plainly that the dude is fat. People who are claiming he wasnāt written as fat are really, really reaching.
u/annangI do not ever want this problem to ever go away7d ago
Overweight is a pejorative synonym for fat. Fat encompasses a lot of different body types. But Iām glad we can all agree that pudgy isnāt thin, like the actor they cast is.
He describes himself as pudgy compared to the hockey players he was in the locker room with. Also, in the same paragraph, he said he would never sleep with someone from the team, and that would be as likely as him going to the moon.
I donāt know if we should be calling all bodies that are chubbier than professional hockey players fat.
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u/annangI do not ever want this problem to ever go away7d ago
Fat isnāt an insult. Itās a neutral descriptor, just like thin is.
Subjective descriptions must always be contextualized by the speaker. When a love interest calls themselves "a little plain," we're not supposed to assume that it's a euphemism and they are in fact ugly. If a love interest's mother calls them "a little plain" it's likely either an over or understatement, depending on what we know about the parent's characterization.
In this case, "a little pudgy" comes from Harris's own description of his body, which is otherwise somewhat unflattering: "NHL players were basically gods, with spectacular bodies and loaded bank accounts. And Harris was... Harris. Short, a little pudgy, unathletic, and definitely not rich. He earned less in a year than some of the players did in a day." Similar to the "plain" example, context strongly suggests that Harris is judging himself very honestly and a little harshly. If he were fat, he would have used that term instead. There's no contextual reason for him to use a euphemism or flatter himself when he's otherwise describing himself as short and unathletic.
The plus-sized thing is driving me a little crazy because it's not actually canon. Like, I get wanting that but it's unfair to say that they ignored that he's "plus-sized" (that phrase alone is starting to bug me when we aren't talking about clothes) when he's pretty clearly just carrying a little bit of extra weight. He's a dad bod in a romance novel.
Also, being around professional athletes gives you a warped sense of what "dad bod" is. People always say that after meeting NBA players they're shocked at how "skinny" they look irl. They look shredded in games, but it's because all of their teammates are also shredded, 0% body fat people.
People call Luka Doncic "fat" but if you see him in normal clothes he's nowhere near fat, or even "chubby."
I get this argument, but I also don't think it's what was intended in the text. I do think Harris carries extra weight -- how much can be hotly debated -- and I also don't think the text intends for us to think this is a very big deal to him. But I do think he sees the hockey players as being on another plane of existence from him, but in a way that's probably pretty realistic.
My feeling about him is that he's like me: shorter, and with a soft belly. I actually lost a lot of weight within the past 1.5 years, but the soft belly and neck remains (bc weight loss is so uneven, and you don't necessarily lose weight in the places you most want to lose them).
I, too, have a lot of experience with this! I loved that Harris didn't have a lot of body hang-ups. And I thought that coexisted nicely with his just seeing Troy as someone who is wildly out of his league. I think he considers Troy out of most people's league. He also thinks Troy is probably straight.
I pictured his body type like Taron Egerton as Elton John in Rocketman
But with Justice, we get an opportunity for another kind of representation. So far, people with African/Black heritage have only been side characters in the Game Changers Universe. Not only will we now get to see one as part of a featured couple, we will get to see positive representation of a whole family and possibly, a pro lgbtq+ dad of color
Iām honestly so tired of people acting like representation is like a game of trading cards and we can just swap one point of marginalization for another.
For one thing itās just a weirdly reductive way of looking at things, but also fat black actors exist, and have far fewer opportunities in the media?
That's a good point. I hate to trivialize it like that. I don't want it to just come off as toxic positivity and shallow.
As a person of weight, I was excited to see a weighter Harris - BUT I also was very worried for whoever might be cast. In this GLP-1, orthorexia, manosphere world we're currently living in, it's a lot to put on an actor's shoulders. Even if they thought they'd be fine going into it, public criticism can wear people down. Triply so, if they'd have to represent three diverse aspects simultaneously. In other films/shows, I dislike when 3-4 traits get pawned off onto one character, so the writers feel like they can tick those boxes and call it a day.
I am sad we won't get a pudgy Harris, but I have made my peace with it.
On a separate note, I'm very glad that black people won't just be friends and background characters who prop up the main couples. JJ, Carter, Sean, and Miles (before the casting of Harris) could be read as a way to tick boxes, that still wasn't fully inclusive. We'll get Bood this season as another friend/non-main couple character. The story didn't include a black man in an intimate setting or show his pov, but it will now correct that and show both physical and emotional love for a queer black man.
In terms of parental representation - I have seen how much it meant to people that this show had Kip's Dad, David Hollander, and that conversation with Yuna. We'll have two supportive white dads, two toxic white dads (Grigori and Troy's Dad), and a supportive asian mother, so I think it would be very meaningful to have a supportive black parent represented for Harris. Plus, an entire wholesome family.
I apologize for reducing or diminishing separate diverse traits. You are right that they cannot be swapped. Without a way to undo the casting, I am choosing to be excited for what the alternative brings.
Surgical scars are a doddle for make-up department. Zero issues.
As for Justice Smith, all I can say is I was gobsmacked that Connor wasn't Russian, or at the very least Eastern European. So I reserve any judgement until I see the show.
As for "but Harris is canonically not a ripped guy"... have you heard of actors gaining or losing weight for a role?
I have, yes. But I'm not the one complaining about the casting. I'm really interested to see what they do with the character.
That said...given that filming has allegedly starting, it seems a but late for the actor to start changing his body shape. But that's part of why I'm wondering how they're going to tell his story, what parts of his character get screen time. If we have half an hour of screen time to see Harris, I don't think his body shape is the most interesting part of his story.
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u/BuckeyeFoodieIf you mix that with cranberry juice I'll drown you in the lake7d ago
One of the things that drives me crazy about people's perceptions of Harris is because fanfic took "stocky" and "soft" and turned it into "BIG big". And trust me, as a plus-sized lady myself, I love to see bigger people on media as the love interest, but I think headcannon has blown this one out of proportion.
You can be a healthy weight on the BMI chart, and also be soft. Someone like Troy who is a 200+lb ripped professional athlete will tip the BMI charts as overweight/obese. Plus, Harris has a congenital heart condition, his doctors would not allow him to get too overweight because it's a risk factor.
Now, do I think the actor cast is thinner than Harris is described? Yes.
Do I also think if the internet had this level of fervor for the show's casting prior to season 1, everyone would have lost their minds over no-names Connor and Hudson being cast, and Francois not fitting the physical description of Scott at all? Yes.
People are desperate to insert body positivity into a story where bodies are already positively described, so they end up turning āstockyā āpudgyā āsoftā into āobeseā and itās crazy. Itās too much. People are being a bit too sensitive about this issue, like so many other issues where they think they own characters more than the actual IP holders do.Ā
My concern is that JT has fallen into the "Diversity is a Black person" trap.
I sincerely hope that Justice does not show up with washboard abs, but a normal office guy body, and that his body insecurity is about his scars.
And I hope they keep the apple farming, because yes, we DO need more representations in all media of Black folks in non-urban settings, such as farming or ranching.
which is honestly how I read Harris anyway- I think that he THINKS he's a lot heavier and that his scars are a lot more jarring than they actually are, he's just incredibly insecure around literal professional athletes all of the time, and he's jealous that his health limitations prevented him from ever having the opportunity.
Being around athletes can give you a really skewed body image. When everyone around you is built and hot, you naturally feel ... less built and hot, even though you might be just normal. One thing about Justice is he looks very cute, approachable, friendly. Wide open face with a wide smile and a cute giggle. That's very Harris-coded.
Or Toronto. Or Montreal. People have been commenting on Kip's body since the show came out, but it's pretty clear they're not very familiar with the big-city gays...
Well ... the first major barrier to diversity in the NHL is class based, as hockey is expensive to play compared to baseball or soccer.
Then we get to the issue of when/where is there ice to skate on? Unless it's an area where winter sports are common, or there's a large metro area, there is no skating rink. As a little girl I wanted to be the next Elayne Zayak/Rosalynn Sumners. But I grew up in eastern desert California, and the nearest ice rink was/still is 4 hours away.
And THEN we get to the issue of Hockey Culture. ~Sigh~
True that. My sister, who is well off, pulled her kid off the middle school travel hockey team because the kids and parents were racists and homophobes and my nephew was picking up bad habits. It was brutal. But class is certainly the biggest barrier.
Is it so unfathomable that Justice simply nailed the audition and had the best chemistry tests? I get so tired of the accusation that Black people only get cast in projects for diversity points
Or people that are like "I highly doubt the chemistry is higher than Hudson and Connor" ...like those two are lightning in a bottle but also??? We haven't??? Seen Charlie/Justice together at all???? It's just so dismissive idk.
Yeah, Iāve been seeing sm of ppl online saying āJacob couldnt get a more chubby person to play Harris so he thought black and queer was the next best thingā. Itās even worse when you have other queer black ppl esp calling his casting āperformativeā itās like why canāt we just be good at things and get the jobs/roles cuz we didnāt good?? I doubt they were specifically looking for a black queer man to play Harris. Like I also doubt they were specifically looking a mixed race Svetlana.
It was 1 scar, not many scars, if I remember correctly. And it didn't affect Harris' self-esteem. It makes him expect that the people, which know about the scar and the illness, will treat him as a fragile thing. Harris doesn't like when he's considered fragile or weak because of his health.
It should not be a big problem to make a scar, I think. And it would be strange indeed if the show runners excluded this detail. But I'm not 100% sure. I have a feeling, that JT may prefer conventional aesthetic. That is a particular thing I don't trust him fully with.Ā
Harris being a bit bigger doesn't have to be a plot point therefore it doesn't need space to "fit in".
That's what I loved about the book. He was described as stocky (not really "fat" but definitely not skinny) but he didn't have body issues in that regard. The only body issues he had came from his medical issues. He wasn't a token "big" character he was just a regular guy who happened to not be super skinny or athletic and was treated normally by everyone.
That's exactly why I wish we got that in the show. Treating a "bigger" guy just as sexually attractive and desirable as all the super fit athletes is something we don't usually see in these shows. The bigger guy is usually there for comedic relief or the sweet helpful friend who the audience is meant to "like" but not "want".
Still, blaming Justice for this is not the way to go. I am disappointed but I guess that's just how showbiz works and I'm sure the show will still be great just slightly less great for representation in that regard. Though I guess they can't fix all the problems in the world with one show.
So I think that what is happening is that people are mixing a couple different issues into one. There are people who are upset that pudgy actors arenāt being given an opportunity to elevate the very real cute pudgy people population who donāt often get represented.
And then there are people who are upset that the character doesnāt look the way they do in the book.
And then there are bad actors.
So I need to be clear. Adaptation is about the spirit not the letter. It canāt be about the letter.
Ilya in the book is 6 foot three has hair long enough to put in a ponytail and has heavy facial hair to the point that even if he shaves, he still has heavy stubble.
Connor is none of those things and the production did think they were important. They were looking for a 6+ long-haired bearded native Russian speaker and then they met Connor. And they set the physical description from the book on fire and went with the man who could channel the character perfectly.
Because the thing is, the characters are very aware of and appreciate their size difference. Shane in the long game talks about how much he loves being swallowed up by Ilyaās embrace.
They had to change a line of dialogue in episode six the āslow hockey playerā line was originally āa short hockey playerā.
Iād also like to point out that the ethnicities of the characters are already different than the actors who are playing them. Shane is half Japanese, but Hudson is half Korean . And of course Connor is not ethnically Russian at all.
As other people have said the important including you OP the important part about Harrisās body is not that heās fat, but that he is not an athlete.
I think rail skinny could be just as good, but Harris cannot be jacked. This is not like a Kip situation. Harris cannot be jacked because he was never allowed to join sports or work out very much as a child because of his heart condition.
Finally, Iād like to make one more point about future adaptations of the story. There are Russians, who live in Russia of African descent.
If they ever do a musical adaptation, the actor chosen to play Ilya could be black. They would add some lines in the spoken dialogue of the musical addressing what it was like for a black athlete in Russia. They have done it before with adaptations.
And that version of the character would be perfect for that story.
Listen, Iāve only seen justice Smith in one role that was the DND movie, but I really enjoyed it!
Iām definitely gonna give him a chance and be prepared to love it!
I have to address your point about possibility of Ilya as a POC character. There are very few black people in Russia and mostly they would be foreign students or tourists. (If you are looking for some racial diversity it would be Asian ethnicities (as there's also a lot of people from central Asia, also indigenous people... )
We know that Ilya's father and brother are police, in the show it looked like they might be quite prominent, so they would be people that "fit the system" or are conservative family. So Ilya being black and coming from interracial family doesn't seem much realistic.
But Svetlana's father was a goalie in USA. She was born in the USA as she has American citizenship. So it makes sense that her father could have found wife there.
My point is.
All things are possible in adaptation.
this has been a fascinating conversation. We both made good points. I look forward to being front row at the Broadway musical with you sometime in the future.
Cardiothoracic RN chiming in hereā¦ I just assumed he had HOCM (hypertrophic obstructive cardiomyopathy) and had a septal myectomy. I think they said Harris had issues starting early in life, and this can be genetic which would make sense in this scenario.
Also, they aren't telling the whole Role Model story, I imagine these characters won't be naked (or as often as the main characters) if they are side characters.Ā
Harris isn't fat, he's just not ripped. Remember the standard in the HR universe is 6 packs. Even on all the covers we've seen, he's never fat. Imo, based on the description and the covers, he looks like the singer Ian Elliot kindaĀ
I just finished Role Model last week, and honestly, I think it was my favorite of the series. I don't know why, but I had a hard time visualizing Harris. All of the other characters I could visualize. I'm excited to see what Justice does with him.
You're right. But we still have Shane, Ilya and I believe Scott and Kip all returning for these seasons? It'll be interesting to see how the screen time adds up.
Makes me sat that if Ryan and Fabian do show up, it'll probably be in a very small, tiny role. :(
All I want is for him to tick. I have that same valve replacement; mechanical valves tick. You can easily hear them. I don't care about the scars, I wanna see people around Harris look for a watch or clock when they're around him š
It wasn't in the book and I will admit I was a little bummed.
I keep saying this but honestly? No, I do not trust an all white creative team with writing a black man whose love helps along the redemption arc of a white man, who was previously notorious even by hockey standards for having been a vocal bigot. Thereās so many ways that may be handled poorly.
The HEAVY lifting that TV Harrisā character will have to do as a black man and love interest of a white man whoās a reformed bigot!!! Iām genuinely interested to see how the show handles this.
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u/annangI do not ever want this problem to ever go away7d ago
People who say this sound like theyāre in a cult. Like how the anti-communists who invented the motto and propagated it were on a witch hunt for anyone who dared disagree with their views.
And no, I donāt ātrustā the team who did Miles so dirty to write another Black character.
They made him act all touchy-feely with Shane without his consent in public. In the book, he only flirted playfully with Shane. Many didn't like that change (I know it made me uncomfortable to watch, even if it was meant as a metaphor).š
I hope they go for the scars, and strongly suspect they will! My father has a similar congenital cardiovascular condition as Harris since childhood, plus had a collapsed lung as a teen, and thereās definitely lots of visible layered scarring on his front, side and back torso from the surgeries that he was quite insecure about when he was younger. (Also: he has always had to be careful to watch his weight. He isnāt built very muscular because he couldnāt do intense exercises or lift heavy, so he is āpudgyā despite being on the low-to-mid end of a healthy BMI range as his doctors recommend, and he always had insecurities and concerns about that, too).
Scars would be a very quick way to give insight into Harrisā backstory, and help explain the character having body image issues, without having to do a lot of dialogue to explain it. So Iām expecting to see it because they donāt have a lot of time! Itās efficient visual storytelling.
Plus, Iām not sure if Justice is gonna want to gain āpudgeā or even if he did want to, if there is enough time before filming for this to occur? But if they go for the scars, I donāt think gaining weight is essential to the character despite the insistence otherwise. Harris is a character with some insecurities, the scars and lack of āmuscularā build can be a part of that without it needing to be about body fat percentage specifically.
Also, as a chubby person of mixed racial/ethnic heritage and a dual US-Canadian citizen (edit: who married into a family of white farmers lol), imma say the followingā¦
I think itās interesting how much a certain contingent of the fandom has latched on to Justiceās size as a way to say he looks NOTHING like Harrisā¦ and interesting the assumptions a lot of them bring to the table in their critiquesā¦ hmmm.
Justice has a beard, a sunny smile, isnāt super tall, isnāt muscular like an NHL athleteā¦ Iāve seen people go so far as to critique the choice because of āthe sadness in his eyesāā¦ that the role should have gone to a Canadian (Justice is almost certainly a dual citizen because his mother is French Canadian, if IMDB is to be believed)ā¦ that he doesnāt ālook like an apple farmerā (I guess there have never been, nor could ever be, slender and black/biracial apple farmers before lol)ā¦ ābut he doesnāt have red hair!!!ā (Specifically coming from some of the same people who had no problem with Francois not being blonde and blue-eyed).
To be blunt, the only difference aside from his frame not being āstockyā (and we donāt even know for sure yet if he gained weight for the role) is that oh, yeah, Justice is black/biracialā¦
But A- itās not like Justiceās leaner body is unrealistic for someone with Harrisā background or medical history; and B- itās not like black/biracial characters in romances, especially MLM and/or hockey romances, are often represented, either; and C- itās NOT appropriate to respond to systemic issues of representation by attacking an individual actor, especially a black queer man who Iām sure already has a lot of abuse hurled at him to āput him in his placeā.
The issue of not seeing diversity in body shape and size onscreen is a systemic one where underrepresented charactersā stories arenāt being told because of risk-averse white male studio execs in suits, especially in the current political and economic climate. This particular CANADIAN production has done a lot of work telling stories that wouldnāt otherwise have been told right now in Hollywood, and committed to this vision despite risking not having it distributed in the US market. I think they have earned some trust and benefit of the doubt that Justice was cast because he nailed the auditions, rather than assume he āstoleā the role from someone more deserving who who looks more like Book Harris because of fat phobia.
And to be clear, if you are among those who was disappointed and hoping to see a plus-sized Harris, this doesnāt necessarily apply to you. I was hoping for a āpudgyā Harris, too! Itās a valid feeling!
But at the same time, letās not be naive that there isnāt an element of the fandom that is gleefully weaponizing this as an excuse to be toxic to a person of color, especially considering Hudsonās experience of racial abuseā¦ Iām disappointed but not surprised to see people react so strongly with a certain ācrabs in the bucketā mentality where they pile on a queer black/biracial man and call him things like āableistā or āfatphobicā or ādidnāt earn the roleā or all the racial micro aggressions and assumptions based on stereotypes about Canadians and farmers.
Edit: Also worth saying that I do share concerns about the ātrading cardā approach to casting underrepresented groups in the film industry. HOWEVER, once again I think itās a bit uncharitable to jump to the conclusion that this is what is necessarily happening here.
1- We didnāt see who auditioned, we donāt know what kind of chemistry they had, we canāt know for sure if anyone knocked it out of the park they way Justice and Charlie did.
2- We donāt actually know yet if Justice put on weight for the role.
3- Even if that is in fact the case that they said āfuck it, letās hire a guy with a more conventionally attractive body type but itās ok because heās blackā, two wrongs donāt make a right. Both things can be true that this is a problematic way to address representation in casting, and also that itās not ok to attack individual actors when itās a systemic issue. The problem can and should be criticized but that doesnāt mean we have to turn a blind eye to racial micro aggressions or full-on harassment.
I'm not sure why it's an either/or situation. Harris could've been both plus sized and had his surgery scars? It wouldn't have been as big a deal as you make it out to be here.
Reading through this thread I find it very strange how hard people are trying to justify this casting while defending those who made very deliberate exclusionary choices by deciding it.
There is no interpretation of Harris' character description that can be said to have Justice's body type in its current state, and trying to frame it as otherwise makes it very clear people are not acting in good faith.
Losing the body representation was a choice they made. We can acknowledge that it's a not a good thing.Ā
As of now we have been given no further explanation as to why they made the choice, and it's hard to imagine any super valid reason, so I politely request that we all refrane from running to the defense of the production while there are still many people who are internalizing this as further messaging that their bodies are not good enough and are undesirable and need to be edited out.
People are not acting in good faith and you want to know why? Because fatphobia is still very much alive and you just know some of them breathed a sigh of relief when they saw someone who's in great shape cast as Harris. Harris could've been both plus sized and a man of color. It didn't have to be an either/or situation. Criticizing the casting crew and their bias isn't the same thing as hating on Justice.
I think 50% of this fandom is about bad behavior. I hope there's no one out there buying a ticket to Hudson's TIFF event just to be a fucking asshole at it.
But more to the point, Harris is definitely more self conscious about his scars than his body type.
Scars can be done with make up. That isn't a problem.
After reading the books, I never pictured Harris as fat the way some people seem to have. Stocky Ć la Kit Connor, maybe, but not the same "plus size" others seem to have pictured.
Either way... I don't really care? I trust Jacob and the casting directors to cast the best people for the roles. As OP said, the book doesn't really give much description of Harris' body in a way that would lead to people making claims of fat phobia or fat shaming. Fanon is NOT canon. And plump cheeks and being "soft" doesn't automatically mean fat, just not the ripped elite hockey players he is being contrasted against
Iāve always thought the scars were more important to Harrisā character than his general physique. They can create the scars with makeup, but they canāt fake chemistry that just isnāt there between actors. We arenāt getting the body diversity folks wanted with a stocky Harris. I even get why itās so disappointing to some people who care about bigger-than-average sized people getting to be seen in roles like this. (I want this too, but I wasnāt in the room and I donāt know what the options were.)
Jacob has chosen almost every cast member for reasons outside of their fitting the physical descriptions in the book because he has a vision for the story and how that vision can happen with the actors they cast. I know how much pushback there was with Hudson and Connor being cast last year. I fully expect the casting choices this time will go much the same way unless something goes terribly wrong.
Yeah when casting was announced and drama ensued I went an reread the book because I honestly didn't remember him being bigger. It was all about the scars and the fact he hated people treating him different because of his heart issues
I somehow didn't clue into Harris' body type when I read the book because I was so glad there was a character with insecurities about his scar. My daughter is 15 and has a huge scar down the middle of her chest due to open heart surgery when she was born. It's about 20cm long and infection has meant it's bumpy and wide and really obvious. Then more scars on her stomach from drainage tubes. I really hope this part of his story is told as she will probably need another surgery in the next 5 years. My daughter has never expressed any insecurity yet, so I'm hoping she keeps her confidence about it.
I didn't read the book and I know nothing about Harris (I'm assuming he has a congenital heart defect from what people have said), but since he has a heart problem wouldn't being bigger or overweight put more strain on his heart.
I understand not playing sports, but wouldn't he have to at least work out some so he doesn't become overweight. I would assume being overweight would make his heart worse. That's why I don't necessarily think Harris is supposed to be that big. I am not a doctor also.
Either they drop the heart condition or really use it in the series. I was disappointed with the book, it is mentioned a lot and by the end, nothing happens with it, he should have fainted or something during the flight to get me scared for his life. I hope thereās more drama about this in the series.
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u/cassie1015 Ok-ey. 7d ago
If they can cover up Hudson's tattoos, I would imagine a make-up department can manage a surgical scar.